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Post by veteran on Sept 17, 2019 18:09:33 GMT
A lot of people I have spoken with since the match have been very critical of David Moran over the mistake at the throw in at the start of the second half. Admittedly, he should probably have tried to catch it but he was very badly served by his defence subsequent to that “error”. When young Murchin got away the entire defence opened up wide as a gate , following their men to the cliff edge like lemmings as the crafty Dublin forwards created that wide open space. Clearly, one of the defenders should have read what was happening and advanced to Murchin. Of course it would mean having to leave their own man unmarked which may have resulted in a goal in any case. But there would have been a possibility of the pass being misdirected or the receiver fumbling the ball etc this slowing matters down. I suppose that displayed naivety resulting from the lack of experience at that level. The point I am making is that is unfair to lumber David with the entire responsibility as a lot of my associates are doing . It is also conceivable that David would have got to him if the steps rule was applied with any degree of accuracy. Either way , it was the decisive moment in the game. I would agree with all this except David did get to him and could have fouled him if he chose to. Easy thing to say with hindsight. Regarding David’s option of fouling Eoin Murchin. This is an interesting conundrum even at this remove. Accordingly, I can only imagine what went through David’s head at the time. Say, he decides to foul him- drags him back by the shoulder or the jersey. Presumably that would merit a yellow card. Suppose, young Murchin decides to make a meal of it- a lot of players do- and accidentally or intentionally goes to ground under the weight of David’s jersey drag etc. Where are we now? Perhaps in black card territory- we know how arbitrary these black cards can be. So instead of going three points down we go one point down and we lose one of our top men with half the match remaining . What was the right thing to do? Go three points down or go one point down and sacrifice David? Another possible outcome would be that in spite of the drag back Eoin Murchin gets away and scores the goal. A possible yellow for David and a goal for Dublin. I am afraid there does not appear to be a happy ending.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 18:19:34 GMT
I would agree with all this except David did get to him and could have fouled him if he chose to. Easy thing to say with hindsight. Regarding David’s option of fouling Eoin Murchin. This is an interesting conundrum even at this remove. Accordingly, I can only imagine what went through David’s head at the time. Say, he decides to foul him- drags him back by the shoulder or the jersey. Presumably that would merit a yellow card. Suppose, young Murchin decides to make a meal of it- a lot of players do- and accidentally or intentionally goes to ground under the weight of David’s jersey drag etc. Where are we now? Perhaps in black card territory- we know how arbitrary these black cards can be. So instead of going three points down we go one point down and we lose one of our top men with half the match remaining . What was the right thing to do? Go three points down or go one point down and sacrifice David? Another possible outcome would be that in spite of the drag back Eoin Murchin gets away and scores the goal. A possible yellow for David and a goal for Dublin. I am afraid there does not appear to be a happy ending. Not easy. I guess the comparison with the Morley goal chance in the first half is the other alternative
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 18:21:58 GMT
As always, great to get the Dublin perspective Do you not have your own eyes? I saw plenty. I just find it amusing how yet again you can’t wait to give the Dublin viewpoint.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Sept 17, 2019 18:31:04 GMT
Do you not have your own eyes? I saw plenty. I just find it amusing how yet again you can’t wait to give the Dublin viewpoint. Whatever.
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Post by dc84 on Sept 17, 2019 18:52:50 GMT
Regarding David’s option of fouling Eoin Murchin. This is an interesting conundrum even at this remove. Accordingly, I can only imagine what went through David’s head at the time. Say, he decides to foul him- drags him back by the shoulder or the jersey. Presumably that would merit a yellow card. Suppose, young Murchin decides to make a meal of it- a lot of players do- and accidentally or intentionally goes to ground under the weight of David’s jersey drag etc. Where are we now? Perhaps in black card territory- we know how arbitrary these black cards can be. So instead of going three points down we go one point down and we lose one of our top men with half the match remaining . What was the right thing to do? Go three points down or go one point down and sacrifice David? Another possible outcome would be that in spite of the drag back Eoin Murchin gets away and scores the goal. A possible yellow for David and a goal for Dublin. I am afraid there does not appear to be a happy ending. Not easy. I guess the comparison with the Morley goal chance in the first half is the other alternative Very similar of course the relative size difference would be very pronounced it wouldnt take a massive amount of David's strenght to make that tackle look bad. Fitzmaurice had an interesting take on it in the examiner podcast he reckons Morley and o Sullivan should have came into the box together to shut down a goal chance leaving Murchans with a handy point but no more.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 19:11:59 GMT
Not easy. I guess the comparison with the Morley goal chance in the first half is the other alternative Very similar of course the relative size difference would be very pronounced it wouldnt take a massive amount of David's strenght to make that tackle look bad. Fitzmaurice had an interesting take on it in the examiner podcast he reckons Morley and o Sullivan should have came into the box together to shut down a goal chance leaving Murchans with a handy point but no more. No doubt. Both Morley and Tom could have done a lot more. It was an absolute shocker of a goal to give away as there were numerous things that could have been done to prevent it at various stages.
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 17, 2019 21:10:30 GMT
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 17, 2019 21:12:26 GMT
I saw plenty. I just find it amusing how yet again you can’t wait to give the Dublin viewpoint. Whatever. Are you a Dub?
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Post by colinsworth1 on Sept 18, 2019 1:03:20 GMT
Just had a quick look over the game again there. The 45th minute was the turning point. Sean O'Shea had just kicked a point to bring us back to within one. We caught the break from Cluxton's kickout but then Connolly puts in a challenge wins the ball back and Kilkenny points it. Connolly for all the hype of being brought back was integral to Dublin’s win. On fine margins are titles won. We are all looking for an explanation and the simpler the better so we can get our head around it . But your right that was a huge moment in the game . We almost won the turnover and it would have been massive and in a second it was taken away again and Connolly the rebel that he is , against all instructions drilled a long ball towards Scully that Kilkenny intercepted and put another point on the board . Big moment game changer ?I’m not convinced it pales In comparison to missing 10 scoreable shots . I’m hanging my hat on that because I know we can work on that and do much better that s a while away yet but we have hope. Hangover not going away for a bit yet still sick over that second half .
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Post by colinsworth1 on Sept 18, 2019 1:09:39 GMT
Maybe the mind plays tricks but I can't remember being so disappointed and so down at losing an All Ireland final. It’s a mix of not ceasing the opportunity the first day that probably rubs salt in an open wound and the notion that by general consensus, the mantle of greatest team of modern times now lays elsewhere and that cuts deep. I can’t imagine how hurt the players and management must be feeling? Losing recent finals is a habit we have to break ASAP, and I’m hoping we get another great run in the league in 2020 and collect a national title. Extending our place at the head of the roll of honour is a priority and a real challenge going into a new decade. Well said and as I’m getting ready to sign off till next game i want to thank you and all posters here for some great posts and perspectives over the last few exciting weeks . Irish by birth Kerry by the grace of God !!
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Sept 18, 2019 5:00:51 GMT
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Post by ciarrai4sam on Sept 18, 2019 7:21:12 GMT
Come on guys, super 8 match in killarney v mayo... Beginning tussle us putting down marker, great to see. Can't have it both ways. Sadly , this holding/jostling at the throw in has become an accepted part of the game. It is of course ridiculous , happening in full view of the referee as it does . Now, that is different to the subtle blocking/screening which is creeping into the game. Perhaps, this illegality will also become acceptable or perhaps has already. It is very difficult for the referee to spot but in essence it is a black card offence. However, the two “offences”should not be confused. The jostling at the throw in should warrant a yellow card and that might put an end to that nonsense. The screening/blocking is a recognised offence in rugby and is frequently picked up by the referee. You’re right it’s funny how Jack Barry drove at the Dublin midfielder like Moss Keane in his prime ! shame the ref didn’t call that one . It’s is ridiculous really but becoming normal! But from the throw in looks like both teams had a set play some cynicism in both plans Dublin’s set play had a goal as its target Our plan seemed to be to smash the ball down to our forwards .
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Post by delorean on Sept 18, 2019 10:41:26 GMT
Regarding David’s option of fouling Eoin Murchin. This is an interesting conundrum even at this remove. Accordingly, I can only imagine what went through David’s head at the time. Say, he decides to foul him- drags him back by the shoulder or the jersey. Presumably that would merit a yellow card. Suppose, young Murchin decides to make a meal of it- a lot of players do- and accidentally or intentionally goes to ground under the weight of David’s jersey drag etc. Where are we now? Perhaps in black card territory- we know how arbitrary these black cards can be. So instead of going three points down we go one point down and we lose one of our top men with half the match remaining . What was the right thing to do? Go three points down or go one point down and sacrifice David? Another possible outcome would be that in spite of the drag back Eoin Murchin gets away and scores the goal. A possible yellow for David and a goal for Dublin. I am afraid there does not appear to be a happy ending. Great post, and sums up the black card nicely. The GAA, in their wisdom, somehow managed to make something that should have been really simple incredibly subjective and grey. When this whole thing came to a head courtesy of Sean Cavanagh against Monaghan (not that he was the first, mind you) and it was generally accepted a black card was needed, the criteria should have been set out as follows: - Deliberately deny a goalscoring opportunity = Black Card
- Anything else = Not a Black Card
God knows why they felt they need to complicate it with specifics like having the drag and player to the ground, tripping a player up, etc. Does it really make the offence any worse what method of foul the defending player uses? Con O'Callaghan's foul on Morley should be the very definition of why the rule was introduced, yet it doesn't fit the ridiculous criteria they laid out (even if the ref did manage to penalise the correct player in this instance, and surely it's a yellow anyway, as opposed to a ticking!). Scrap the black cards for 'drag downs' in non-goalscoring situations (if it's cynical play late on, the player who fouls isn't going to mind being replaced anyway, and neither are his team). Scrap the black cards for third-man tackles, they're too subjective, often accidental, a yellow/red is the more appropriate punishment if warranted I think.
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keane
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Post by keane on Sept 18, 2019 11:08:02 GMT
The black card was voted in six months or more before Sean Cavanagh pulled down Conor McManus.
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Post by delorean on Sept 18, 2019 11:11:15 GMT
Fair enough. Doesn't affect the point too much.
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keane
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Post by keane on Sept 18, 2019 11:29:10 GMT
Fair enough. Doesn't affect the point too much. No, not trying to discredit the point - that Cavanagh thing is just a pet peeve and a myth I'm sure that umbrella dickhead loves.
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Post by crokes86 on Sept 18, 2019 11:48:03 GMT
Bottom line is Kerry weren’t good enough to win it on Saturday. Kerry had an great opportunity to beat Dublin in the drawn game and didn’t take it. A man up they couldn’t keep possession and kick a couple of scores and beat the Dubs.
Nobody to blame but themselves. You won’t get a chance like that against a team like Dublin too often. Hopefully they will learn from this year and get better. You got to have that killer instinct and be able to finish the game out .
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Post by delorean on Sept 18, 2019 11:59:31 GMT
Fair enough. Doesn't affect the point too much. No, not trying to discredit the point - that Cavanagh thing is just a pet peeve and a myth I'm sure that umbrella dickhead loves. No, I didn't think so, it was worth pointing out. I mistakenly thought it came in the the aftermath of the Cavanagh incident, but I suppose it just heightened the need for it. Good to know!
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Post by listowelemerrs on Sept 18, 2019 12:19:17 GMT
We will be in same group as Dublin next year permitting we both win our provincials for super 8s. Imagine we played them in Killarney! That would be unreal. But we played Donegal this year and Galway last year in Croke Park so it will be interesting if the GAA Fix that game for Killarney because they usually fix provincial winners vs each other for Croke Park
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Post by PaddyGoSlow on Sept 18, 2019 12:26:00 GMT
Lots of positive from the year, but lots of areas of improvement - tackling, ball retention and fitness/energy conservation the main priorities. League should be used for experimentation of tactics, and squad rotation. Bring in a few from u20s and possibly Dylan Geaney from minors. Presuming Kerry win Munster they'll be playing Dublin in the Super 8s in an actual neutral venue, nice opportunity to end Dublin's unbeaten run! Speaking of tackling and defensive coaching, whatever happened to the good old-fashioned "blockdown" ? I notice many occasions these days (and not just Kerry) where a player pursues and tackles an opponent in possession, but then kind of backs off when the ball is being kicked, instead of attempting a blockdown. It'd be interesting to know if the blockdown is included in the current Kerry defensive coaching curriculum. It's a simple yet effective technique (but maybe not easy to master). I recall Paudie Lynch explaining it in a magazine many years ago, maybe 'twas Gaelic Sport. Mick O Connell is seen demonstrating it to a few young lads in "Kerry - the Green and the Gold".
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exiled
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Post by exiled on Sept 18, 2019 12:38:57 GMT
It was reported a few years back that Gavin had the Dublin players training twice a day. If its true and allowing for the players they have its no surprise they are so far ahead of us and the rest. There is no guarantee that we will win Sam soon if we don't come near their level of strength and conditioning. We may end up like Mayo with the bridesmaid title. They were closer than us
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Sept 18, 2019 13:04:22 GMT
It was reported a few years back that Gavin had the Dublin players training twice a day. If its true and allowing for the players they have its no surprise they are so far ahead of us and the rest. There is no guarantee that we will win Sam soon if we don't come near their level of strength and conditioning. We may end up like Mayo with the bridesmaid title. They were closer than us Oh God nothing could be worse. Alas 37 stands alone. If both Kerry and Dublin win their provincials I would like that match to be fixed by the GAA for Thurles. If Kerry managenent would like more experience of Croke Park, they could request that.
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Post by crokes86 on Sept 18, 2019 14:36:45 GMT
It will take a huge effort to beat this Dublin team next year for every county. Cork will be a lot better next year . I expect them be a semi final team. This Dublin side is still young and they have the perfect mix of experience and youth . They have no weak links in the pitch and it’s guaranteed they will find a couple of young fellas in the league to bring into the panel .
We have to be able to reach another level in fitness . Strength . Our shooting let us down at times in both games. Possession too . A lot to work on plus we’ll have to find 4 players at least.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Sept 18, 2019 15:25:33 GMT
Regarding David’s option of fouling Eoin Murchin. This is an interesting conundrum even at this remove. Accordingly, I can only imagine what went through David’s head at the time. Say, he decides to foul him- drags him back by the shoulder or the jersey. Presumably that would merit a yellow card. Suppose, young Murchin decides to make a meal of it- a lot of players do- and accidentally or intentionally goes to ground under the weight of David’s jersey drag etc. Where are we now? Perhaps in black card territory- we know how arbitrary these black cards can be. So instead of going three points down we go one point down and we lose one of our top men with half the match remaining . What was the right thing to do? Go three points down or go one point down and sacrifice David? Another possible outcome would be that in spite of the drag back Eoin Murchin gets away and scores the goal. A possible yellow for David and a goal for Dublin. I am afraid there does not appear to be a happy ending. Great post, and sums up the black card nicely. The GAA, in their wisdom, somehow managed to make something that should have been really simple incredibly subjective and grey. When this whole thing came to a head courtesy of Sean Cavanagh against Monaghan (not that he was the first, mind you) and it was generally accepted a black card was needed, the criteria should have been set out as follows: - Deliberately deny a goalscoring opportunity = Black Card
- Anything else = Not a Black Card
God knows why they felt they need to complicate it with specifics like having the drag and player to the ground, tripping a player up, etc. Does it really make the offence any worse what method of foul the defending player uses? Con O'Callaghan's foul on Morley should be the very definition of why the rule was introduced, yet it doesn't fit the ridiculous criteria they laid out (even if the ref did manage to penalise the correct player in this instance, and surely it's a yellow anyway, as opposed to a ticking!). Scrap the black cards for 'drag downs' in non-goalscoring situations (if it's cynical play late on, the player who fouls isn't going to mind being replaced anyway, and neither are his team). Scrap the black cards for third-man tackles, they're too subjective, often accidental, a yellow/red is the more appropriate punishment if warranted I think. The Black Card is to discourage fouling someone who is 'in a scoring position', but at what stage would the ref know Murchan was 'in a scoring position?' If it wasn't there then every 'trigger pull' would result in a yellow, but no score and so the game is ruined. Problem is that refs appeared to boycott the Black Card, more so in the league hence lack of consistency and which is very hard on players who have to make split decisions. Rules need to be simple, thought though and enforced clinically and consistently - The GAA scriptures according to Ballythefireside!As for what we need to do better, forget about instances in individual games as once we mature the dynamic changes. We need to focus on research like the Dubs re Altitude training, etc - who is driving the path are they on, Donie Buckley has followed NFL? in US, there is probably so much going on we will never know, what with 'closed door' training policy, etc. Of course there is input from professional sports, Leinster rugby is awash with cash and that buys expertise. We are going away from traditional skills and with the advent of Artificial Intelligence it will become more 'mind games.' Now what do you think of all that, Mick O'Connell?
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Post by colinsworth1 on Sept 18, 2019 16:42:41 GMT
You mentioned artificial intelligence above Do any think that Dublin actually had intelligence on our plays on Saturday evening ? For example those sky high long kicks to Cluxton five of them at the start of the game . That was an unusual ploy but strangely Dubs were 100% ready for it and dealt with it with numbers and calmness. That had to be practiced over and over at Curran’s training ground . The only other set play I can think of was the half time smash down by David Moran that was a practiced move drilled many times in the week before surely at Curran’s that’s why David didn’t catch it because the plan was to break it forward to Spillane . Murchen new exactly where that ball was going and Fintan knew the exactly when to make the screen all perfectly timed to. Tee . Both these set plays by Kerry very well covered makes one wonder if there was prior knowledge . Not that it’s an excuse you miss 9 or 10 scoreable shots it’s case closed.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Sept 18, 2019 17:50:56 GMT
You mentioned artificial intelligence above Do any think that Dublin actually had intelligence on our plays on Saturday evening ? For example those sky high long kicks to Cluxton five of them at the start of the game . That was an unusual ploy but strangely Dubs were 100% ready for it and dealt with it with numbers and calmness. That had to be practiced over and over at Curran’s training ground . The only other set play I can think of was the half time smash down by David Moran that was a practiced move drilled many times in the week before surely at Curran’s that’s why David didn’t catch it because the plan was to break it forward to Spillane . Murchen new exactly where that ball was going and Fintan knew the exactly when to make the screen all perfectly timed to. Tee . Both these set plays by Kerry very well covered makes one wonder if there was prior knowledge . Not that it’s an excuse you miss 9 or 10 scoreable shots it’s case closed. How certain are you that these were set plays would be my first question, I'm not doubting you by the way! My only point would be that if the above is the case then players need to display better in game intelligence - if you look up and Dublin have 3 on 1 in their full back line then dont go long for godsake! Also Moran should have just caught the ball when the opportunity arose as he had acres of space
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Post by colinsworth1 on Sept 18, 2019 18:48:32 GMT
You mentioned artificial intelligence above Do any think that Dublin actually had intelligence on our plays on Saturday evening ? For example those sky high long kicks to Cluxton five of them at the start of the game . That was an unusual ploy but strangely Dubs were 100% ready for it and dealt with it with numbers and calmness. That had to be practiced over and over at Curran’s training ground . The only other set play I can think of was the half time smash down by David Moran that was a practiced move drilled many times in the week before surely at Curran’s that’s why David didn’t catch it because the plan was to break it forward to Spillane . Murchen new exactly where that ball was going and Fintan knew the exactly when to make the screen all perfectly timed to. Tee . Both these set plays by Kerry very well covered makes one wonder if there was prior knowledge . Not that it’s an excuse you miss 9 or 10 scoreable shots it’s case closed. How certain are you that these were set plays would be my first question, I'm not doubting you by the way! My only point would be that if the above is the case then players need to display better in game intelligence - if you look up and Dublin have 3 on 1 in their full back line then dont go long for godsake! Also Moran should have just caught the ball when the opportunity arose as he had acres of space Establishing that the two plays at start of both halves were pre planned or “ Set Plays” by Kerry is not hard to do .Blatantly obvious I have no doubt . Whats puzzling is how come the opposition were 100% ready for both ,not just ready overwhelmingly so . There was zero element of surprise why ? For example in 2014 when the same player Paul Geaney got the high early ball v Donegal it caught everyone off guard with only Paddy McGrath on duty Hence the easy goal in first few min. You’re right there was no logic in pumping 5 high balls in with 3 v 1 and down on top of the keeper not just any keeper Nor was there logic in David smashing away the ball from the throw in when the catch woulda have been so easy logic is lost because these were pre programmed moves It’s why when a million viewers in 2014 were urging Donegal to push up and take the ball off Kerry when 4 pts down with the clock ticking. They couldn’t because drill after drill after drill had directed that they follow the plan to the bitter end. My point being logic is lost when following a rigid pre planned move
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Post by john4 on Sept 18, 2019 19:07:43 GMT
I'm unconvinced by any of the conspiracy theories tbh. Reading through this thread, my own posts included, it's like reading through the seven stages of grief. The whole footballing county is hurting. I think we're somewhere between denial and anger at the moment, the sooner we get to acceptance the better.
We have a young team, a team that are as capable as any on the island of winning Sam Maguire next year. The future's bright.
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Post by kerrygold on Sept 18, 2019 19:53:00 GMT
People would want to be getting over the grief/hurt. We lost a final, big swing, Kerry have a great chance of winning next years championship regardless whether Gavin & or Cluxton stays or goes.
Dublin might even have the balls to offer to come down to Killarney to play Kerry in the Super 8s in a knockout game......
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dano
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Post by dano on Sept 18, 2019 20:11:07 GMT
Agree 100% John4. And,while I understand there is frustration, any excuses at this stage will be seen as Kerry not accepting defeat, sour grapes etc.. The wides cost us. Simple as that. Darragh's article explains the thoughts of the players at this time and how hard it will be to get back to where they were a week ago. There's a mountain to climb. A mountain similar to the one that stood in front of us in October 2005. "Couldn't beat Ulster teams", "soft underbelly" etc.were the catcalls at the time. But a dusted off and wounded Kerry created a Summer of magic in 2006. A summer that was punctuated by the swatting aside of Mayo in a final that was over,as a contest, at half time. The thing that Kerry will know after Saturday and the drawn match is that Dublin are beatable. They'll dust themselves off, they'll be wounded and they'll expect,not hope, to be the ones going up the steps of the Hogan come September.
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