kot
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Post by kot on Jul 5, 2016 12:31:40 GMT
Well to sum it up in a nutshell.
1. We are still far to susceptible to coughing up goal chances to teams running directly at it. This has been evident ever since the first Munster final game last year and almost every team bar Kildare & Clare have opened us up in every championship game since.... not to mention Dublin in the league final.
2. Our lack of pace around the middle is still a problem, I don't know how we are going to cope with this.
3. Forward line clinical when we get the ball into them, better opposition to come I know but the 2 games in Munster have seen us rack up very impressive totals.
4. Am I any more convinced that (provided we negotiate the quarter final) we are capable of toppling Dublin in August? No.
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Post by Attacking Wing Back on Jul 5, 2016 15:09:39 GMT
We seem to be going backwards if anything. Our defence just seems way too loose. Watching the game the last day there was times when we had all 15 players inside our own half or 45 when Tipp were attacking. Other teams have done this relatively successfully to the Dublin in the past. is this our master plan? All out defence? Because we couldnt contain a modest Tipp side not to mind dublin.
Going through the starting team the last day you had: Sheehan, Donaghy, Mahony, and to a lesser extent Donnachadha and Gooch all occupying positions in the middle 8. Thats 60% or thereabouts that would struggle to match their markers for pace. Our full backline can be doing well but it doesnt matter as we frequently end up in 2 v 1 situations as we cant track the runners from deep. We keep saying we need pace in the team. Surely EF sees the same thing?
Six backs from Crowley, Lyne,Enright, Morley, O Beaclaigh (however its spelt), Griffin and Young proved decent enough options, with a few more ive probably forgot.
Midfield is the problem. People can just ghost away from our 2 lads and create overlaps at will almost. We dont seem to have a kickout strategy with two big men there so i dont see how we could come up with one for two runner types. (maybe we do have a strategy but, wont be revealing it for now)
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Post by beantownfan on Jul 5, 2016 15:49:33 GMT
Unfortunately I did not have a chance to watch the game live, but have since watched it.. I think it is painfully obvious Sheehan will not cut it out in midfield.. He does not have a burst of pace and seems to be very sluggish in a lot of situations.. At one point in the 29th minute in the first half he was going forward, and Darren over baked a pass, Sheehan tried to get it but ultimately it was too high and went past him.. What is disappointing you could see he just finished out his run, even though the Tipp back had possession, it is not like Sheehan slammed on the breaks and then went in pursuit.. Instead he slowed down like a man finishing a jog, turned and back tracked nonchalantly.. He committed several lazy tackles conceding frees.. His free taking is second to none, but for a modern midfielder I can't see him cutting it.. Another thing I observed is a number of Kerry players overshooting the mark when trying to tackle, i.e. running by their man, and then having to concede a lazy free in order to stop progress.. I'd expect Kerry to be better coached in this area at this stage
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Post by glengael on Jul 5, 2016 16:42:34 GMT
The scoreboard woes have been well documented but did anyone else have a problem with the PA on Sunday? We were on the terrace closer to the dressingroom end of the ground and it was almost impossible to hear what was being said.
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Post by mafi97 on Jul 5, 2016 17:48:03 GMT
There is a story told (which I happen to know is completely true) of Brian Cody being seated at a Sports Dinner thingey, next to a senior IRFU bod.
This was a few years back when O'Driscoll and Gordon D'Arcy et al were still plying their trade.
The IRFU guy tried to get some pointers from Cody.
Cody asked him how many of the Irish team would be guaranteed their starting places. The IRFU guy proudly told him that they had a very settled team with about 12-13 nailed on starters.
And then asked "Why? How many would you have?"
Cody: "About two".
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 5, 2016 18:02:46 GMT
There is a story told (which I happen to know is completely true) of Brian Cody being seated at a Sports Dinner thingey, next to a senior IRFU bod. This was a few years back when O'Driscoll and Gordon D'Arcy et al were still plying their trade. The IRFU guy tried to get some pointers from Cody. Cody asked him how many of the Irish team would be guaranteed their starting places. The IRFU guy proudly told him that they had a very settled team with about 12-13 nailed on starters. And then asked "Why? How many would you have?" Cody: "About two". Do you know what... without thinking too deeply I count three: Shane Enright, Stephen O'Brien and Donnachadh Walsh. Every other player on the team has either not started games in the last year or has had fitness concerns.
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Post by ballynamona on Jul 5, 2016 19:37:20 GMT
Moran has to be reinstated to the starting line-up asap. He could do with a confidence boost.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Jul 5, 2016 23:48:37 GMT
I watched the game back over last two nights. Seconmd half tonight. We were absolutely abysmal for the first 20 mins of the second half. Tipp wasted 4 scoring chances in a row right after half time. They won absolteley everything in the middle of the field, all from breaking ball. Our passing was shocking, Donnacha and David specifically. David kicked two out over the line under no pressure. Actually Donnacha was cuaght ball watching for the second goal.
The scoreline is very flattering. It's truly amazing we put 3-17 up. Paulie Geaney was immense, beyond it even. His contributions gave us the luxury to freely play as poorly as we did.
Overall, I'm not overly concerned with the performnace, it's more the problems that continue to persist that a better performance would still not remedy. Overrun both in legs and breaking ball in the middle and inability to manage direct runners.
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Post by kerryman99 on Jul 6, 2016 7:04:25 GMT
Actually Donnacha was cuaght ball watching for the second goal. He was and he gave a very poor tired looking pass just before it. The tongue was hanging out at this stage - I couldn't understand why he wasn't taken off, not much to be gained by leaving him on.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Jul 6, 2016 9:33:30 GMT
Actually Donnacha was cuaght ball watching for the second goal. He was and he gave a very poor tired looking pass just before it. The tongue was hanging out at this stage - I couldn't understand why he wasn't taken off, not much to be gained by leaving him on. Donnchadh lost his man badly for that goal alright even though many in the stand were quick to blame Griffin for it even though he held his man up well.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Jul 6, 2016 9:35:38 GMT
Moran has to be reinstated to the starting line-up asap. He could do with a confidence boost. While I can understand your logic, starting players in knock-out football in August just to give them a confidence boost isn't realistic. They should be picked on form and on merit.
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Post by onlykerry on Jul 6, 2016 9:43:03 GMT
Moran has to be reinstated to the starting line-up asap. He could do with a confidence boost. While I can understand your logic, starting players in knock-out football in August just to give them a confidence boost isn't realistic. They should be picked on form and on merit. And that is the Catch 22 - players need games, when on the periphery of a county panel they are stopped from playing with their clubs (for much of the time) and then told they are short of match practice or their game is not up to scratch. Yes, games risk injury but there is no substitute for a run of games to get a player up to speed. We know our existing mid-field will not pass muster if we get to the semi final - therefore we have to work on getting players we think may work up to speed and match fit. Johnny Buckley was not in the 26 last weekend and played for Crokes against Dingle (where Mark O Connor also played) - this game time will help him way more than a ten minute cameo appearance in the Munster Final.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Jul 6, 2016 9:53:11 GMT
He was and he gave a very poor tired looking pass just before it. The tongue was hanging out at this stage - I couldn't understand why he wasn't taken off, not much to be gained by leaving him on. Donnchadh lost his man badly for that goal alright even though many in the stand were quick to blame Griffin for it even though he held his man up well. Agreed - Griffin is the default fall guy for anything that goes wrong at the back. Yeah, he should have been able to make a dive block attampt for Quinlivan shot that Kelly saved - but it was a quality ball to Quinlivan, low, fast into chest, and fcuk it he's a good forward and he did well to spin and execute. I wouldn't equate that to being "torched". Donnacha's nothing hail mary ball from half back into SOB double marked was what started the move for that second goal. they feasted 1-2 and could have been more from it.Look - two mistakes, they have to be called as key points of damage. They're not a reflection of the man but an instance that needs not to happen again. The notion he was flogged - I don' think so(maybe for that move) - in the last 5 minutes he was driving into the Tipp half from one of our kick outs dragging the half back away from the central area. Just not one of his best games.
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Post by ballynamona on Jul 6, 2016 10:37:00 GMT
Moran has to be reinstated to the starting line-up asap. He could do with a confidence boost. While I can understand your logic, starting players in knock-out football in August just to give them a confidence boost isn't realistic. They should be picked on form and on merit. In principle, I agree. But we are badly off for midfielders. If someone was genuinely keeping him out, fair enough. I was never convinced of either Donaghy or Sheehan as midfielders, and the idea of them in tandem, in the autumn of their careers, does not make sense. The Valentia man could have been an option but is not available. Maher is still recovering from injury. Moran is a confidence player. I feel it would be wise to reinstate and show faith in him.
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Post by Mickmack on Jul 6, 2016 11:34:01 GMT
We seem to be going backwards if anything. Our defence just seems way too loose. Watching the game the last day there was times when we had all 15 players inside our own half or 45 when Tipp were attacking. Other teams have done this relatively successfully to the Dublin in the past. is this our master plan? All out defence? Because we couldnt contain a modest Tipp side not to mind dublin. Going through the starting team the last day you had: Sheehan, Donaghy, Mahony, and to a lesser extent Donnachadha and Gooch all occupying positions in the middle 8. Thats 60% or thereabouts that would struggle to match their markers for pace. Our full backline can be doing well but it doesnt matter as we frequently end up in 2 v 1 situations as we cant track the runners from deep. We keep saying we need pace in the team. Surely EF sees the same thing? Six backs from Crowley, Lyne,Enright, Morley, O Beaclaigh (however its spelt), Griffin and Young proved decent enough options, with a few more ive probably forgot. Midfield is the problem. People can just ghost away from our 2 lads and create overlaps at will almost. We dont seem to have a kickout strategy with two big men there so i dont see how we could come up with one for two runner types. (maybe we do have a strategy but, wont be revealing it for now) "Dont bring me problems, bring me solutions" springs to mind. The problems are well ventilated at this stage. The solutions are not that obvious. Well...not to me at any rate. This Kerry team would have been good enough to win all Ireland's in other years. Dublin look up for the task of retaining it unlike 2012 and 2014. Eamonn has to play his hand brilliantly to give us a chance. He didn't do so in 2015. He did do in 2014. Lonely place to be. His problem is to stay in the game till the 60th minute and then be able to meet the challenge of the six subs that Dublin will bring on. The only way I can see Kerry winning is to get a great start and force Gavin to make changes in the first half.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Jul 6, 2016 11:51:36 GMT
Having O Beaglaoich, Crowley, Morley in the half-back line and someone like Lyne at midfield along with either Maher or Moran gives Kerry options and a runner at midfield. Those 4 could interchange during the course of a game, maybe not so much Crowley as he needs to hold the centre. I'd like to see Lyne tried there as he's well able to cover ground and well able to kick a point when attacking. Just a thought ...
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keane
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Post by keane on Jul 6, 2016 11:58:51 GMT
I'm vacillating back towards wanting to play Paul Murphy at wing back just because of Ciaran Kilkenny.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 6, 2016 12:50:39 GMT
I think Lyne is a player with both the legs and the engine to be one of these individuals around the middle of the pitch that people think we need.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Jul 6, 2016 14:29:46 GMT
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Jul 6, 2016 14:32:31 GMT
I'm agreeing with all the views on Lyne, and whilst I really like Murphy as a link man and threat going forward, his tenacity, heart and steeliness of mind are needed for Dublin, from within the half backs.
I'd like to believe Mick's theory on the card up the sleeve re: Dublin in semi final. In reality on 2 counts
- given Lyne's versaitility, mobility and penchant for kicking points; why has of all the backs he got so little game time? - is it realistic to believe that we could play a different set and type of midefield partnesrhip all through the league up to and maybe into the 1/4 finals and then spring a novel pair to start v Dublin. Would behind closed doors games validate such a ploy?
Maybe it would.
'Trojan horsery'
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2016 15:09:55 GMT
I don't think he won't change much for the quarters . If gooch is out I could see him move Sheehan to the 40 and Crowley back in for O Mahony . Hopefully by the Dublin game if they get that far Maher and O Donoghue will be starting . I still can't see them getting near Dublin those 6 backs are not good enough to keep the Dublin forwards quiet and neither Maher nor Moran can run with MacAuley. Not to mention Gooch or Sheehan can't run with Cian o Sullivan and Donnacha can't run with James McCarthy. It's hard to see us coming near Dublin this year again.
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Post by derry4sam on Jul 6, 2016 15:54:18 GMT
Have Kerry not employed this tactic since Fitzmaurice was in charge? This 'crowding the middle' has been done for the last 2 years at least I'd say?
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jul 6, 2016 16:04:42 GMT
Have Kerry not employed this tactic since Fitzmaurice was in charge? This 'crowding the middle' has been done for the last 2 years at least I'd say? If it is then its being done badly as every team seems to be able to run in a straight line down our centre
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Post by blackisbad on Jul 6, 2016 16:06:10 GMT
While I can understand your logic, starting players in knock-out football in August just to give them a confidence boost isn't realistic. They should be picked on form and on merit. And that is the Catch 22 - players need games, when on the periphery of a county panel they are stopped from playing with their clubs (for much of the time) and then told they are short of match practice or their game is not up to scratch. Yes, games risk injury but there is no substitute for a run of games to get a player up to speed. We know our existing mid-field will not pass muster if we get to the semi final - therefore we have to work on getting players we think may work up to speed and match fit. Johnny Buckley was not in the 26 last weekend and played for Crokes against Dingle (where Mark O Connor also played) - this game time will help him way more than a ten minute cameo appearance in the Munster Final. Mark o Connor didn't play against crokes
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Premier
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Post by Premier on Jul 6, 2016 17:35:16 GMT
And that is the Catch 22 - players need games, when on the periphery of a county panel they are stopped from playing with their clubs (for much of the time) and then told they are short of match practice or their game is not up to scratch. Yes, games risk injury but there is no substitute for a run of games to get a player up to speed. We know our existing mid-field will not pass muster if we get to the semi final - therefore we have to work on getting players we think may work up to speed and match fit. Johnny Buckley was not in the 26 last weekend and played for Crokes against Dingle (where Mark O Connor also played) - this game time will help him way more than a ten minute cameo appearance in the Munster Final. Mark o Connor didn't play against crokes He played u21 Champ as far as I know
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peanuts
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Post by peanuts on Jul 6, 2016 18:04:33 GMT
Have Kerry not employed this tactic since Fitzmaurice was in charge? This 'crowding the middle' has been done for the last 2 years at least I'd say? The suggestion seems to be and Tomas said it as well on TSG is that we are employing this tactic further up the pitch than previously. Tomas said on the opponent 45m line. I suppose the intent is that you stop/minimise the other team from breaking through. The problem of course is that if they do break free they have acres of room in front of them. I didn't see all the game on Sunday but for the second half it did appear that there was less of the running down the middle at us than previously.
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Post by colinsworth1 on Jul 6, 2016 22:49:51 GMT
Plenty focus on our midfield here but maybe not enough on our wing Forwards who are no longer a threat on goal Compare our nemesis in the wing forward Dept and see how we stack up Have we a Diarmuid Connolly or a Paul. Flynn Wingers that can score points?
Also It's hard to figure why Tipp stopped running at us ? Because it was working real well for them this is puzzling We are weak at defending the Running game that others like Tyrone are good at because at practice we most likely Play a kicking Kerry syle game and hence get no Time figuring out how to stymie the running game
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Post by kerryman99 on Jul 7, 2016 7:50:12 GMT
Sheehan seems to be getting flack but interesting to hear on Terrace Talk that he topped the tackle count and number of possessions. He also caught balls that led to the 2 goals and of course kicked the frees. I'm not sure what the exact definition of a tackle is(give away a foul/tackle but no effect?) but he doesn't lack for workrate - perhaps its his style that makes him seem lazy.
Donnacha had 5 assists, very impressive. I would still think he is a 45/50 minute man or an impact sub. He was gassed last Sunday and should have been brought off, and it costs us a goal.
Can't remember the exact details on opposition turnovers, but it was very high.
Kickouts were poor enough. Tipp went very short but even our own weren't great. If we are persisting with 2 big men in the middle and going long we would want to be winning the lions share of our own restarts.
Most of the panellists went for a midfield pairing of Moran/Maher, with one going for Sheehan/Maher.
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Post by kerrygold on Jul 7, 2016 8:18:38 GMT
Sheehan seems to be getting flack but interesting to hear on Terrace Talk that he topped the tackle count and number of possessions. He also caught balls that led to the 2 goals and of course kicked the frees. I'm not sure what the exact definition of a tackle is(give away a foul/tackle but no effect?) but he doesn't lack for workrate - perhaps its his style that makes him seem lazy. Donnacha had 5 assists, very impressive. I would still think he is a 45/50 minute man or an impact sub. He was gassed last Sunday and should have been brought off, and it costs us a goal. Can't remember the exact details on opposition turnovers, but it was very high. Kickouts were poor enough. Tipp went very short but even our own weren't great. If we are persisting with 2 big men in the middle and going long we would want to be winning the lions share of our own restarts. Most of the panellists went for a midfield pairing of Moran/Maher, with one going for Sheehan/Maher. Brian Sheehan has regularly been subjected to a lot of bull* on this forum.
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kot
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Post by kot on Jul 7, 2016 8:58:06 GMT
Plenty focus on our midfield here but maybe not enough on our wing Forwards who are no longer a threat on goal Compare our nemesis in the wing forward Dept and see how we stack up Have we a Diarmuid Connolly or a Paul. Flynn Wingers that can score points? Also It's hard to figure why Tipp stopped running at us ? Because it was working real well for them this is puzzling We are weak at defending the Running game that others like Tyrone are good at because at practice we most likely Play a kicking Kerry syle game and hence get no Time figuring out how to stymie the running game Tell me again who got the first goal?
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