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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Apr 8, 2016 8:34:10 GMT
Very disappointing again at u21 Level. Jack made a few mistakes. Mark O'Connor was not ready for this game he had very little ball played. He was away too slow to make changes in the first half. Cork were running through us at will. Nobody was coming out to hit em a belt of a shoulder on the way in. Cork were dominating and he did nothing. Apart from Jack Savage and Matt Flaherty everybody else was struggling. I think if he changed it around earlier and made some positional changes it might had been different. Andrew Barry was a big loss in the middle for Kerry. Cork kicked some really bad wides they could have been further ahead if they had scored them. Kerry have not played well in any game in Munster this year. Struggled against Limerick and Tipp. When you are struggling to beat a team like Limerick then that's a bad omen. I think we expected more from Jack this year after the Minor victories but I think he struggled this year with team selections and tactics. Not a good year for him. Criticism of JO'C here is unwarranted and over the top in my opinion; we lost a cracking game by a point and with a little bit of luck and better finishing would have been victorious on the night- we took one of four goal chances on offer ( Burns, Roche & Spillane the others), we had 3 bad wides late in the first half and 3 wides again when chasing the game in the last 10 mins; Cork's third goal was against the run of play as we were dominant in the final 15 minutes. Regarding changes, Jack's hand was limited given the awful run of injuries we endured this year; Mark O'Connor was certainly not match fit given his long lay off but what other options had we? Liam Kearney is a long term absentee, Matthew O'Sullivan also injured and Greg Horan just did not perform when previously given his opportunity- Jack gambled on Mark to get maybe 40 mins from him and who could blame him? I dont know of any other options- maybe Michael O'Donnell of Stacks was worth a try but who knows? The loss of Andrew Barry prior to the game and the loss of Brian O'Beaglaoich for the final 20 mins was just a bridge too far- add in the other absentees and I think Jack has done a good job. We are lucky to have a coach like Jack- it was he who brought EF on board and this year he has added Declan to his coaching staff- Declan is another future manager and will have gained from this experience; outside of Jack & Eamon I do not see any great potential managers around the county bar Maurice Fitzgerald given his run with St Marys this year. Jack is an excellent coach and we are lucy to have him- I completely agree. However I think he got the defensive set up wrong last night and left us way too open to the most basic of footballing tactic, i.e running in a straight line. People talk about Cork being more physical, etc but that wasnt the issue as if we had players in the way- you just cant run over the top of them- we were too open and got it wrong positionally in the first half. Jack is great and has been a major success in every arena but surely noone is exempt from criticism. When we lose our ability to critically analyse- we stop moving forward.
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fivenarow
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Post by fivenarow on Apr 8, 2016 8:39:17 GMT
Very disappointing again at u21 Level. Jack made a few mistakes. Mark O'Connor was not ready for this game he had very little ball played. He was away too slow to make changes in the first half. Cork were running through us at will. Nobody was coming out to hit em a belt of a shoulder on the way in. Cork were dominating and he did nothing. Apart from Jack Savage and Matt Flaherty everybody else was struggling. I think if he changed it around earlier and made some positional changes it might had been different. Andrew Barry was a big loss in the middle for Kerry. Cork kicked some really bad wides they could have been further ahead if they had scored them. Kerry have not played well in any game in Munster this year. Struggled against Limerick and Tipp. When you are struggling to beat a team like Limerick then that's a bad omen. I think we expected more from Jack this year after the Minor victories but I think he struggled this year with team selections and tactics. Not a good year for him. That's a bit harsh there Nacrochaigh, fair enough they lost but they were only beaten by a point in a game where they were 6 points down playing with the wind. The team has been plagued by injuries & the experience gained will stand to the fellows that are under again next year. Jack & co have made a lot of good calls over the past few years & with some enforced calls this year they only just came up short. There's 12 of the starting 15 under again next year plus some of this years panel & whatever they pick up over the next year. Physicallity, injuries & a bit of luck is all that beat them last night but the experience will be invaluable - they'll be a hard team to beat next year.
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Post by buck02 on Apr 8, 2016 8:58:14 GMT
I think what Jack will be most disappointed about is the concession of the 2nd and 3rd goals, both of which came from our own kickout that Cork won, passed into the middle and the Cork player ran straight down the middle to score. The 3 missed goal chances will also be talked about. Cork had 3 goal chances and scored 3 I think. They did kick a lot of bad wides however, especially in the 1st half. Of course the umpire allowing a Cork point that flew directly over his head was ultimately the difference between the teams.
To me the biggest mistake in the first half was that our two wing forwards dropped back onto the Cork half forwards allowing the wing backs to drop in front of the full back line. With the wind that was blowing I think Kerry should not have employed this tactic.
All in all I wouldnt be too disappointed seen as a lot of the boys are u21 again next year. It was also a great game to watch despite the result and the circumstances of the result.
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kot
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Post by kot on Apr 8, 2016 9:19:36 GMT
Went into that game with no confidence after watching the Limerick game and this was reinforced 20 minutes in. I feared the worst then. Seems lessons were not learned from the previous match from how easy we were to run through and management did not address that really, Cork were going through us like a hot knife through butter.
But what a response and with a bit more composure (and undoubtedly a few key players being in good health) then Kerry would have won this game. I think I saw somebody use the word "deflated" and its very apt. After all the talk that Cork team are no great shakes and won courtesy of sloppy defending for 3 goals and some stray shooting from our lads.
However, on the flip side you could say its a reality check for some of these lads who are used to unprecedented success at various levels over the last 2/3 years. When you get so used to winning it is in defeat where you need to show true character and judging by their rousing response in the final 40 mins it is definitely there. However, there will be a realisation that there is another step up needed and there will be 1 more to get to the big time.
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chrism
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Post by chrism on Apr 8, 2016 9:49:44 GMT
I really thought Kerry would win this.Home advantage and on the back of great Minor success and withJack o Connor as Manager who has never lost a Knockout game to Cork. You can talk about 2017 but it seems Cork will have 8 of their starting panel plus all their subs and will have home advantage.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Apr 8, 2016 9:55:32 GMT
I'm very disappointed with last night but the better team won and Cork should've been out of sight by halftime. We were wiped out around the middle in the first half. Both wing-forwards were poor and even though Matthew Flaherty had a world of ball his man did a pile of damage. Kerry were so open and naieve when they were set up defensively it was unbelievable. Cork just ran through them time and time again. Jack and the selectors would have to accept criticism on that. Foley was completely horsed out of it by Kelleher which was was to be expected. You'd have to think that Cathal O Luing would've been ideal for the job but he wasn't even in the 24.
Given that any game v Cork next year will be away, our poor record down there could mean 10 years since winning Munster which is crazy.
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Post by veteran on Apr 8, 2016 11:06:35 GMT
Whatever about the result, suffice to say this game was as exciting and compelling as last year's minor game between the sides. Nobody came away looking for change out of their entrance fee.
This match was not unlike the Limerick game in that two aspects of it killed us. After the Limerick match I expressed disquiet here on the madness of repeatedly allowing Limerick take short kicks out which allowed them to carry the ball up the field with power and pace. Ditto last night. Cork were allowed take short kicks out ad nauseum . They then proceeded to power up the field, particularly in the first half, and thereby putting our defence under pressure with which they could not cope. The other killing aspect of the game was the concession of three goals.Concede three goals and you are looking up at the peak of Mount Everest. That view is for mountain climbers, not for callow footballers. It must be recorded though these boys were not totally intimidated by unforgiving task they set themselves.
Playing with the wind in the first half, Kerry could not have started brighter with two quickfire points from Jack Savage,a giant all night and surely a future Kerry senior, and Briain Sheanachain. Unlike Jack, Brian had a poor game but in his defence he had a knee bandaged. Cork took over then and more or less over ran Kerry for the first half. At one stage they were six points ahead, after scoring two goals. Indeed, they oculd have been further ahead if their shooting from play and frees had not been so wayward. On the plus side for them they were awarded one point which was clearly wide! As the half advanced, Kerry improved and were unfortunate not to score a goal just before half time when after great work by Killian Spillane he centred across the goal and all it needed was a touch home but Dara Roche and Briain O'Seanachain messed up between them. So, three down at half time with the added hazard of playing against a very stiff wind. Very little chance, one felt.
Breeze or no breeze, Kerry applied themselves with purpose and vigour in that second half. Barry O'Sullivan was much improved at midfield and the Kerry forwards started to demonstrate that the Cork defence is possibly their Achilles heel. Some points flowed and Mark O'Connor, not surprisingly only a shadow of the man we know him to be, scored a fine goal. Was this Mark's first game since the All-Ireland final? In spite of Kerry's huge effort , Cork continued to get away with murder with short kicks out and ,sadly, another Cork goal was registered by Sean White, the best midfielder on show. No towel appeared in the ring yet and Kerry fiercely competed for and got the leveling scores. We then thought it would go to extra time like last year's minor match but Cork snatched the winner. They deserved it. They looked as if they might widen the margin to two but the effort from Dan O'Duinin struck the upright. The rebound was gathered by Kerry and we wished for one more surge up the field but the referee drew the curtain.
After watching the two previous games, I was not at all confident of victory. Apart , from some suspect play in those games there was also the significant disparity in the age profile of the teams playing last night. A year or two makes a huge difference in underage competitions. This was best illustrated in the difficulties experienced by last year's minor, Jason Foley, against Cork senior, Peter Kelliher, Peter is a fine footballer in any case but Jason certainly could not cope with the physical power of his opponent. Jason has has had fine days playing against his own age group and I have no doubt at all that we are looking at a future Kerry senior.
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Jo90
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Post by Jo90 on Apr 8, 2016 11:07:44 GMT
Looking at Cork fora, it seems half of Cork have been in here reading this thread, some even quoting my post as if it's gospel or represents all of Kerry's opinion. Don't be shy Cork lads, register and and have a chat. It's OK to disagree. Don't be so insulted when we talk about the big strong Cork lads. Sure isn't that just testament to the fine pasture land you have that helps produce an endless supply of great big footballers like Michael Cussen and Pearse O'Neill.
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Post by undercovereustace on Apr 8, 2016 11:20:20 GMT
Jo90 - I think why Cork football people resent the constant references to the physicality of Cork players is that it suggests that Cork do not have skillful players. They feel that Cork are never given due credit on here. Not true, of course, as it is a mixture.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Apr 8, 2016 11:26:52 GMT
Physicality had nothing to do with last night's defeat, some of ye are brainwashed by Weeshie's constant ráiméis! The better team won but whether the same Cork team are good enough to win the All-Ireland is another question.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Apr 8, 2016 11:27:40 GMT
JackO's and often Kerry's Achilles heel is that physical ruthlessness, Ulster lads would tell me that over a pint, they say that our class blinds us from it. JackO admitted he would get bata agus bothair at home if he courted Ulster style.
Did we get bata agus bothair from Cork last night?, i.e. physicality winning the ball makes class redundant. A Tyrone lad once compared Michael Frank oozing of talent to Mugsie who he maintained was nowhere near as natural as MF.
Temperament and discipline are also key to maintain as one transforms the style.
P.S. I didn't hear Weeshie's constant ráiméis nor did I read Veteran's account before I penned the above.
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Post by leesider on Apr 8, 2016 11:45:09 GMT
Jo90 - I think why Cork football people resent the constant references to the physicality of Cork players is that it suggests that Cork do not have skillful players. They feel that Cork are never given due credit on here. Not true, of course, as it is a mixture. Yes you are right there; we do resent it because it simply isn't true. That excuse was made before here a few times when we beat ye at U-21 level. We have beaten ye six years in a row now at U-21; it can't be possible that every one of those victories was due to being stronger physically. I accept that not every Kerry person on this forum thinks that way so I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush. From a Cork point of view very happy of course but a vast improvement is needed if we want to go all the way and win it out. Free-taking was particularly poor; we won't get away with that again. It's unlikely we will win it out anyway;I'd say Dublin will take care of us (if Monaghan don't). I enjoyed my trip to Tralee much more than I did the one last Sunday
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Jo90
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Post by Jo90 on Apr 8, 2016 11:51:46 GMT
I was only saying it as a wind up to the hidden audience. Most Kerry folk give Cork their due, but Cork lads prefer to concentrate on the few who don't. Also, nobody thinks physicality can win a game, it's just one element and rarely the deciding one.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Apr 8, 2016 11:54:24 GMT
Very sporting of you leesider. Btw what's at the root of the current issues, so unCork to have both senior hurlers and footballers below par. Still you did threaten us Sunday, maybe news from Monaghan v Donegal got your tails up?
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Post by buck02 on Apr 8, 2016 12:06:33 GMT
Physicality had nothing to do with last night's defeat, some of ye are brainwashed by Weeshie's constant ráiméis! The better team won but whether the same Cork team are good enough to win the All-Ireland is another question. The biggest player on the pitch was the Cork number 13. He was also probably their worst forward (despite the good finish for the goal) some of his shooting was woeful. Maybe it was just an off night. I was impressed with some of Corks smaller players like Cronin, Flahive and Hurley.
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Post by kingdomer on Apr 8, 2016 13:16:51 GMT
Kerry were no doubt a better coached team. But it was arrogant to think that we could go with 90% of the panel being 19-20, we have 2-3 lads who are still only 18 on the panel too. How is no body mentions Conor Keanes loss. Before the campaign he'd have been singled out as our main player. He's playing co league with legion so he can't be injured. 3-4 months ago he was being touted as a senior player this year. Injuries were prevalent but you'd have to ask how are so many of these lads picking up serious injuries too. Never seen a panel more decimated by injury. I'll repeat agin the Kerry were the better coached and managed team but you have to respect the influence age has in a physical game.
all of the backs last night were small and slight with exception of Foley who has a bit of size but was struggling physically on Kelliher. Dara Roche, Jack Savage and Horan all influenced the game, physically Roche and Horan were able, both in their final year, a few more true 21 year olds would have helped to compliment the team
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inchperfect
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Post by inchperfect on Apr 8, 2016 13:40:21 GMT
I suppose we can't be too surprised. We scraped past Tipperary and Limerick, they beat Clare and Waterford by a combined 40 points. And they have our number at u-21 level.
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Post by leesider on Apr 8, 2016 14:34:35 GMT
Very sporting of you leesider. Btw what's at the root of the current issues, so unCork to have both senior hurlers and footballers below par. Still you did threaten us Sunday, maybe news from Monaghan v Donegal got your tails up? Yerra we didn't really threaten ye on Sunday, we only got back into the game because of a dubious penalty. I always thought Kerry had an extra gear they could go up to if needed. I don't think the Cork lads were influenced by events in the Monaghan game. We are struggling in both codes but at the heart of it is that our underage record is shocking. Last minor football win:2000 Last minor hurling win:2001 Last u-21 hurling win:1998 Last u-21 football win:2009 I know underage All-Ireland's are no guarantee of senior success but it's no harm to win a few that's for sure.
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Post by homerj on Apr 8, 2016 14:38:21 GMT
this sudden lynching of Jack O'connor is a disgrace. everybody was happy with the team picked beforehand, nobody was questioning jack when he won his second all ireland back in september.
people are talking as if we were hammered out the gate, the game was level deep into injury time and we lost by 1 point, after conceding 3 goals.
typical Kerry Gaa nonsense, always look to blame somebody. this team is full of 18 and 19 year old, give them a break for f*ck sake.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Apr 8, 2016 14:43:43 GMT
this sudden lynching of Jack O'connor is a disgrace. everybody was happy with the team picked beforehand, nobody was questioning jack when he won his second all ireland back in september. people are talking as if we were hammered out the gate, the game was level deep into injury time and we lost by 1 point, after conceding 3 goals. typical Kerry Gaa nonsense, always look to blame somebody. this team is full of 18 and 19 year old, give them a break for f*ck sake. To be fair I don't think anyone is "lynching" Jack but I think many would agree that the team wasn't as well set up last night as it could've been, especially defensively. Kerry rarely had more than 12 men back behind the ball and it proved costly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 15:00:36 GMT
I understand what ya are saying totally. Im just so sick of losing to Cork at this point and hearing the same excuses. I think Jack is a very good coach but I just think he made some costly mistakes and paid the price. The frustrating thing for me is we could have that game even with the bad start. Mark O'Connor was obviously not fit enough to play the whole game so I don't understand why he didn't keep him for the last 20 minutes and bring him when Cork were getting tired that's when we need him most. When I saw him going off I said were in trouble now for sure. Tom Leo O'Sullivan is a fine young player but he was the wrong man to bring in. I would have started Greg Horan he is a strong guy and and is older and has more experience. Our half forward line and Midfield were getting beaten in the first half anyone could see we were struggling. Brian Ó Seanacháin is a fine young prospect and a bright future but he was not in the game in the first half. Eanna Ó Conchúir kicked a nice point but he was not in the game either. Killian Spillane and Jack Savage had the beating of their men but Kerry struggled to get them enough ball. I would have brought Dave Foran and maybe even Shane O'Connor in around midfield area take off the two boys brought Cormac Coffey in earlier and moved Dara Roche out the field. Just to see how it went. I would have saved Mark O'Connor for the second half. It's just very frustrating maybe im totally wrong I don't know but it's just my opinion. It's a good Cork side but not great I think we let one go.
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Premier
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Post by Premier on Apr 8, 2016 15:15:13 GMT
I understand what ya are saying totally. Im just so sick of losing to Cork at this point and hearing the same excuses. I think Jack is a very good coach but I just think he made some costly mistakes and paid the price. The frustrating thing for me is we could have that game even with the bad start. Mark O'Connor was obviously not fit enough to play the whole game so I don't understand why he didn't keep him for the last 20 minutes and bring him when Cork were getting tired that's when we need him most. When I saw him going off I said were in trouble now for sure. Tom Leo O'Sullivan is a fine young player but he was the wrong man to bring in. I would have started Greg Horan he is a strong guy and and is older and has more experience. Our half forward line and Midfield were getting beaten in the first half anyone could see we were struggling. Brian Ó Seanacháin is a fine young prospect and a bright future but he was not in the game in the first half. Eanna Ó Conchúir kicked a nice point but he was not in the game either. Killian Spillane and Jack Savage had the beating of their men but Kerry struggled to get them enough ball. I would have brought Dave Foran and maybe even Shane O'Connor in around midfield area take off the two boys brought Cormac Coffey in earlier and moved Dara Roche out the field. Just to see how it went. I would have saved Mark O'Connor for the second half. It's just very frustrating maybe im totally wrong I don't know but it's just my opinion. It's a good Cork side but not great I think we let one go. In fairness Coffey didn't exactly light it up when he came on, had a good chance to win the ball for a final counter attack but decided to try and take the Cork players head off instead
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Apr 8, 2016 15:26:45 GMT
this sudden lynching of Jack O'connor is a disgrace. everybody was happy with the team picked beforehand, nobody was questioning jack when he won his second all ireland back in september. people are talking as if we were hammered out the gate, the game was level deep into injury time and we lost by 1 point, after conceding 3 goals. typical Kerry Gaa nonsense, always look to blame somebody. this team is full of 18 and 19 year old, give them a break for f*ck sake. Absolute nonsense- nobody is lynching him for godsake. The team was set up poorly and conceded 3 goals because of this- we are allowed point it out! Everyone can get it wrong and Jack did last night-I think everyone still knows he's an excellent coach but we shouldnt have to censor our comments just because people think he is beyond criticim.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Apr 8, 2016 15:29:21 GMT
I understand what ya are saying totally. Im just so sick of losing to Cork at this point and hearing the same excuses. I think Jack is a very good coach but I just think he made some costly mistakes and paid the price. The frustrating thing for me is we could have that game even with the bad start. Mark O'Connor was obviously not fit enough to play the whole game so I don't understand why he didn't keep him for the last 20 minutes and bring him when Cork were getting tired that's when we need him most. When I saw him going off I said were in trouble now for sure. Tom Leo O'Sullivan is a fine young player but he was the wrong man to bring in. I would have started Greg Horan he is a strong guy and and is older and has more experience. Our half forward line and Midfield were getting beaten in the first half anyone could see we were struggling. Brian Ó Seanacháin is a fine young prospect and a bright future but he was not in the game in the first half. Eanna Ó Conchúir kicked a nice point but he was not in the game either. Killian Spillane and Jack Savage had the beating of their men but Kerry struggled to get them enough ball. I would have brought Dave Foran and maybe even Shane O'Connor in around midfield area take off the two boys brought Cormac Coffey in earlier and moved Dara Roche out the field. Just to see how it went. I would have saved Mark O'Connor for the second half. It's just very frustrating maybe im totally wrong I don't know but it's just my opinion. It's a good Cork side but not great I think we let one go. In fairness Coffey didn't exactly light it up when he came on, had a good chance to win the ball for a final counter attack but decided to try and take the Cork players head off instead That was madness from Coffey alright. Now I might be wrong but I thought that he was favourite to win that ball looking on from the terrace anyway.
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Post by onlykerry on Apr 8, 2016 15:36:26 GMT
With the upgrade of Austin Stacks Park its a pity HAWKEYE was not included. I expect this system is at the gift of HQ - and before any smart ass reminds me the PA is far lower tech than HAWKEYE and was malfunctioning last night. One first half point was well wide by all accounts and I had my doubts about a second half score for Cork also. Yes its frustrating to lose again at this grade and worse to lose to the neighbours but as said previously I think the team did well enough in the circumstances and I think there will be better days in the near future at this grade.
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Post by thatkerry on Apr 8, 2016 15:41:29 GMT
Lads is that Jacks first loss as a manager since Donegal 2012? Some going
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Post by leftoutside on Apr 8, 2016 15:59:16 GMT
Just wondering how many of last nights Kerry team (including subs) will be eligible for next year.
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 8, 2016 16:59:48 GMT
The bit in bold below is from an article by Jack last week and its very relevant. If nearly all of the Kerry boys were in college in Tralee, it would have been far easier to get them right. This point was made last year too on the u21 thread for 2015. Jack continued: “It’s not easy at this level and it’s not that everybody that came before us was doing everything wrong, because they were not. They were good men in charge of the U21 sides but it’s just a very difficult job.
“Take the logistics alone, Cork have nearly all their players under their hands up in the city. With so many lads going to college [in Cork], they can arrange a challenge game at the drop of a hat. We have players in Dublin, in Limerick, in Cork, and players here at home in Kerry, so logistically that is a very tough ask.
“We only started collective training midweek three weeks before we played Tipperary, which might explain why we were a little bit undercooked.”
As a Rebel I empathise completely with the disappointment being felt here with the result last night but following 2014 you should be far from despondent. It is my firm belief that the incubator effect of CIT and UCC for concentrating Cork football talent for a few years after minor level has been a major factor in Corks recent successes at U21 level. A significant number of the players from the last few years have all been nurtured in these institutions resulting in better physical conditioning, preparation and most importantly unity of purpose and approach. Most of these guys during their time in these places have fallen under the tutelage of experienced and successful coaches and the fact that in a county with the spread we have that all these guys are based in the city for the crucial few months leading up to the commencement of the U21 FC cannot be understated. I am sure the Kerry management given that guys were probably spread from West Kerry to Cork, Limerick and beyond over the last few months has limited the amount of meaningful preparation that could happen during the week and weekends may have been used for cramming. Unless Kerry have an exceptional team, Cork will have the upperhand at u21 given their advantage in having most of their players in CIT and UCC as the above post says and this point was made as well last year. The timing of the competition suits Cork down to a tee kerrygaa.proboards.com/thread/5355/kerry-u21-team-2014?page=6But by the time these players are 24 I would be confident that Kerry players will have the upper hand
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Post by southward on Apr 8, 2016 17:54:25 GMT
Someone mentioned Greg Horan as having a poor game?. I thought he made a big difference when he came on.
Ref could have allowed us a last play when we had possession at the end. He blew bang on the announced time but there were several stoppages during injury time.
Good game tonight. Cork probably just about shaded it but the Kerry lads can be proud of the fightback.
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Post by southward on Apr 8, 2016 17:55:40 GMT
Just wondering how many of last nights Kerry team (including subs) will be eligible for next year. I think I read 12 somewhere.
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