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Post by sinkthelead on Apr 8, 2015 19:12:33 GMT
The point about Joe McQuillan and the hand pass was made with poetic licence. He pulled Doncha that day, disallowing a goal, and you claim he subsequently pulled a Down player for the same offence. Very fair indeed. Incidentally, did that Down foul pass immediately precede a Down score? Did Mr. McQuillan pull all foul passes that day, back in those years the majority of those passes were of the dubious variety. If he didn't pull all those passes the he was purely pulling rabbits out of the hat on certain occasions, crucial occasions for Kerry, as a balancing act for Down. The same principle applies to the hand off. I have been preaching for a long time that this illegal practice has become endemic in out game. At a crucial juncture in Sunday's game, Mr. McQuillan reaches for another rabbit. He apparently decrees that David Moran committed the foul under discussion. Perhaps, he did.But how often was that foul committed and punished during Sunday's game? How often is that foul committed and punished during any game? Another rabbit out of the hat at a crucial juncture. Cost us a place in the semifinal. Persecution complex in respect of Mr. McQuillan? I have written once and once only in respect of the last minute free in the 2011 final. I wrote that if you are giving a free to win an ALL-Ireland, then it must be a cast iron free. The burden of certainty needs to be greater at the death. That BJK free was never a cast iron free. Perhaps you are right I am saddled with this persecution complex. Of course it could be that that I am dealing with an inept referee who who has an unfriendly blind spot when dealing with my county. These things happen and need to be acknowledged. The point is that Donnacha's pass in that particular play was perfectly and legally executed. I was on the hill that day and I assure you it was illegal! Yiz might remember that year the new rule governing over hand hand passes came in and throughout the championship referees where quit strict on it. As far as I recall the down one also was at the point of a goal scoring opportunity!
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Post by veteran on Apr 8, 2015 20:02:03 GMT
lol, do ye not think some of these boys hate Tyrone enough with you giving them more ammo with speculation about "narrow" guards of honnor, and such like.... lol.... I also heard a rumour that we had dirty looks on our faces when the Kerry players appeared ... Disgraceful !! Sure why would some of these boys hate Tyrone? What have Tyrone ever done to them? I wonder how wide/narrow will the guard of honour be for the four boys who have deserted the panel?
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Post by kerrygold on Apr 8, 2015 21:41:24 GMT
The point is that Donnacha's pass in that particular play was perfectly and legally executed. I was on the hill that day and I assure you it was illegal! Yiz might remember that year the new rule governing over hand hand passes came in and throughout the championship referees where quit strict on it. As far as I recall the down one also was at the point of a goal scoring opportunity! Bull*
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seamo
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Post by seamo on Apr 8, 2015 22:03:48 GMT
The point is that Donnacha's pass in that particular play was perfectly and legally executed. I was on the hill that day and I assure you it was illegal! Yiz might remember that year the new rule governing over hand hand passes came in and throughout the championship referees where quit strict on it. As far as I recall the down one also was at the point of a goal scoring opportunity! It was illegal for sure, Donnacha's own fault he shouldn't have left any doubt about it. Pretty sure the Down one wasn't a goal scoring chance, and referee's were strict on it in May and early June but dropped it until the Donnacha one!!!! Of that I'm 100% sure of. But again, it was more about Donnacha than the referee in my eye's; one of the first things you learn in GAA is how to give a legal hand pass.
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Post by kerrygold on Apr 8, 2015 22:36:17 GMT
I was on the hill that day and I assure you it was illegal! Yiz might remember that year the new rule governing over hand hand passes came in and throughout the championship referees where quit strict on it. As far as I recall the down one also was at the point of a goal scoring opportunity! It was illegal for sure, Donnacha's own fault he shouldn't have left any doubt about it. Pretty sure the Down one wasn't a goal scoring chance, and referee's were strict on it in May and early June but dropped it until the Donnacha one!!!! Of that I'm 100% sure of. But again, it was more about Donnacha than the referee in my eye's; one of the first things you learn in GAA is how to give a legal hand pass. There was a clear striking action of the ball.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Apr 8, 2015 22:50:32 GMT
Am convinced the overflowing majority of hand passes are throws from the ball holding hand with just the lightest striking action from the non-carrying hand to seal the direction and flight.Exceptions exist of course. Almost impossible task execution to police effectively. If every hand pass had to be executed from a static ball holding hand before striking, foot passing stats would be on the rise significantly.
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seamo
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Post by seamo on Apr 8, 2015 22:52:51 GMT
It was illegal for sure, Donnacha's own fault he shouldn't have left any doubt about it. Pretty sure the Down one wasn't a goal scoring chance, and referee's were strict on it in May and early June but dropped it until the Donnacha one!!!! Of that I'm 100% sure of. But again, it was more about Donnacha than the referee in my eye's; one of the first things you learn in GAA is how to give a legal hand pass. There was a clear striking action of the ball. Clearly not. Doesn't do us much good to be trawling over Joe's crimes against us, Down deserved the win and that was yet another botched rule change/clamp down by the GAA.
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inchperfect
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Post by inchperfect on Apr 8, 2015 23:03:32 GMT
I was on the hill that day and I assure you it was illegal! Yiz might remember that year the new rule governing over hand hand passes came in and throughout the championship referees where quit strict on it. As far as I recall the down one also was at the point of a goal scoring opportunity! It was illegal for sure, Donnacha's own fault he shouldn't have left any doubt about it. Pretty sure the Down one wasn't a goal scoring chance, and referee's were strict on it in May and early June but dropped it until the Donnacha one!!!! Of that I'm 100% sure of. But again, it was more about Donnacha than the referee in my eye's; one of the first things you learn in GAA is how to give a legal hand pass. What was illegal about it?
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Post by Ballyfireside on Apr 9, 2015 0:22:22 GMT
For what it's worth, I was at Donegal Tyrone Ulster u21 final. Due to bottleneck at gates, didn't see 1st Qr and it was Tyrone 1-2 to Donegal's 2 on 16 mins when we got in, despite being there 10 before KO, and there was no obvious reason to delay throw in, none.
Ref was 'weak', but key was that Tyrone were set up almost identically to their seniors were on Sunday. Although the final margin was a single point, Tyrone on the attack always had options, in contrast, Donegal forwards appeared to mark their men. But what an amazing display of 'puritism', e.g. A mark by Donegal on their own 20m line, then driving forward, 5 exchanges, ending up in a beautiful long range point.
A game to remember, pure pure class, sunny, 'natural lights', and I was in the company, if accidentally, of two stalwarts, of '87 u21 and '92 senior pedigree, including one knowledgeable gentleman called Manus Boyle.
The physicality, intensity and skill that I saw only means one thing for us, we need to make sure our Minors are 'system' focused. If they're not there's trouble in store up ahead with the talent that was on display and it was action packed for the full 60 mins. Treat either of this pair as anything less than formidable, at your peril.
Slán go foil a chairde.
PS That's my best Veteran, so your 'job' is safe!
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Post by sinkthelead on Apr 9, 2015 6:07:04 GMT
It was illegal for sure, Donnacha's own fault he shouldn't have left any doubt about it. Pretty sure the Down one wasn't a goal scoring chance, and referee's were strict on it in May and early June but dropped it until the Donnacha one!!!! Of that I'm 100% sure of. But again, it was more about Donnacha than the referee in my eye's; one of the first things you learn in GAA is how to give a legal hand pass. What was illegal about it? It was overhand with an open hand.
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Post by baurtregaum on Apr 9, 2015 6:21:06 GMT
It was illegal for sure, Donnacha's own fault he shouldn't have left any doubt about it. Pretty sure the Down one wasn't a goal scoring chance, and referee's were strict on it in May and early June but dropped it until the Donnacha one!!!! Of that I'm 100% sure of. But again, it was more about Donnacha than the referee in my eye's; one of the first things you learn in GAA is how to give a legal hand pass. What was illegal about it? I was also there, as has been pointed out here it was policed very effectively earlier in the year but like of rule changes it was ignored as the championship wore on. I couldn't believe it at the time but the onus is on the player to make sure there is no doubt in the referees mind. Uncle Joe needs no excuses when it comes to Kerry.
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Post by glengael on Apr 9, 2015 12:23:51 GMT
I think it might be worth pointing out that it was more than Joe McQuillan's actions that cost us a place in the semi's. The performances against Monaghan, Cork and Mayo spring to mind as contributing factors also.
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inchperfect
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Post by inchperfect on Apr 9, 2015 13:09:06 GMT
Skip to 2:57. Overhand? Lateral at most but closer to underhand than overhand. If I remember correctly lateral handpasses weren't necessarily illegal. To blow for it was extremely nitpicky. The rules that year didn't say that handpasses had to be made with a closed fist. As long as there was a striking action you could do an open handpass.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Apr 9, 2015 13:16:50 GMT
It was a technically legal handpass at the time and even looking at it now boils my blood. Kerry were motoring well in that period and that call stalled the momentum.
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Post by sinkthelead on Apr 9, 2015 14:45:18 GMT
Skip to 2:57. Overhand? Lateral at most but closer to underhand than overhand. If I remember correctly lateral handpasses weren't necessarily illegal. To blow for it was extremely nitpicky. The rules that year didn't say that handpasses had to be made with a closed fist. As long as there was a striking action you could do an open handpass. thats the first time I've seen it in a replay and yes there seems to be very little wring with the pass. Kerry hard done by on that ocassion
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Post by sullyschoice on Apr 9, 2015 15:02:43 GMT
An outrageously poor decision
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Post by sinkthelead on Apr 9, 2015 15:02:47 GMT
Down had a goal disallowed for an illegal hand pass very similar to Donacha Walsh in the second half! Think there might be a bit if tinted glass paranoia with some posters when it comes to refs decisions against Kerry. I can be the same myself when it comes to Dublin , Every game has contentious decisions for both sides but when closely examined the refs are generally fair and mostly correct with their decisions. Kerry did not come near deserving anything from the game against a Down side who were far superior over the 70 mins all over the pitch.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Apr 9, 2015 15:15:05 GMT
Down had a goal disallowed for an illegal hand pass very similar to Donacha Walsh in the second half! Think there might be a bit if tinted glass paranoia with some posters when it comes to refs decisions against Kerry. I can be the same myself when it comes to Dublin , Every game has contentious decisions for both sides but when closely examined the refs are generally fair and mostly correct with their decisions. Kerry did not come near deserving anything from the game against a Down side who were far superior over the 70 mins all over the pitch. Maybe so but that goal puts Kerry in front, could've been a different game after that. All heresay really but Joe has form, you can't deny that.
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keane
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Post by keane on Apr 9, 2015 15:44:01 GMT
Kerry were flying at that point, the disallowed goal really sucked the wind out of them.
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Post by sinkthelead on Apr 9, 2015 15:59:16 GMT
Meh! I could post a list as long as your arm regarding decisions that Went against Dublin in the 11 final so in that sense Joe has form.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Apr 9, 2015 16:04:22 GMT
Down had a goal disallowed for an illegal hand pass very similar to Donacha Walsh in the second half! Think there might be a bit if tinted glass paranoia with some posters when it comes to refs decisions against Kerry. I can be the same myself when it comes to Dublin , Every game has contentious decisions for both sides but when closely examined the refs are generally fair and mostly correct with their decisions. Kerry did not come near deserving anything from the game against a Down side who were far superior over the 70 mins all over the pitch. Though of course you're right about fans being biased (we all are) but I'm not sure I agree that refs are always mostly fair in a game, and I've never claimed that. I can think of the 2010 semi against Cork and the 2011 Qtr final against Tyrone (JOe McQ significant linesman in the first and referee in the 2nd) where I felt that alot of things or a couple of big things went against us. Also the ref in the 2005 Qtr final replay sticks in my mind too (not Joe McQ). And then there was the 2012 semi against Mayo, once again it was Joe McQ and IMO he very much rode us and that was after alot of pre-game propoganda against him. Mind you, I don't recall any other counties' supporters or the media agreeing with me about those occasions (surprise surprise, people see what they want to see) so I'm not inclined to be sympathetic in return. C'est la vie.
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Post by sinkthelead on Apr 9, 2015 18:03:31 GMT
Down had a goal disallowed for an illegal hand pass very similar to Donacha Walsh in the second half! Think there might be a bit if tinted glass paranoia with some posters when it comes to refs decisions against Kerry. I can be the same myself when it comes to Dublin , Every game has contentious decisions for both sides but when closely examined the refs are generally fair and mostly correct with their decisions. Kerry did not come near deserving anything from the game against a Down side who were far superior over the 70 mins all over the pitch. Though of course you're right about fans being biased (we all are) but I'm not sure I agree that refs are always mostly fair in a game, and I've never claimed that. I can think of the 2010 semi against Cork and the 2011 Qtr final against Tyrone (JOe McQ significant linesman in the first and referee in the 2nd) where I felt that alot of things or a couple of big things went against us. Also the ref in the 2005 Qtr final replay sticks in my mind too (not Joe McQ). And then there was the 2012 semi against Mayo, once again it was Joe McQ and IMO he very much rode us and that was after alot of pre-game propoganda against him. Mind you, I don't recall any other counties' supporters or the media agreeing with me about those occasions (surprise surprise, people see what they want to see) so I'm not inclined to be sympathetic in return. C'est la vie. had Dublin won those games you've outlined would the Cork Mayo or Tyrone supporters have had grievance with the ref on the given day? It's a question that's rarley asked due to the winning teams supporters lack of interest in studying the performance of the man in the middle. Point being, winning teams supporters rarely give out about the ref
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seamo
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Post by seamo on Apr 9, 2015 19:10:08 GMT
Christ boys pick yer battles would ye! We have enough to be bitter about over the past few years especially when Joe is involved, but in this instance the call was right, not consistent true, but still the right call players need to be smarter and not give certain referee's the oppertunity.
Actually we should just end this, please. If I was from another county I'd be taking the piss out of Kerry fans now! We're reigning champs, to hell with 2010.
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 9, 2015 20:39:59 GMT
I cant see what Tyrone did wrong with the "applauding the champions" onto the field. One of the mentors was clapping and the players were respectful it seemed to me. Joe McQuillan was okay too. He got a few calls wrong against Sean Cavanagh and his brother Colm. David Moran could have got a black card. He tended to give the free to the player that was in possession and running through and falling/diving. Both sides got those. His final call against Moran was a momentum shifter and Kerry fans are entitled to be upset at that one. As to the game... On 40 mins it was 8 points each and I was thinking to myself that this will be really interesting.... who will step up and do something to lift either team. Bryan Sheehans marvellous blockdown was it. Within seconds the ball was at the other end and Paul G points with a class effort. In the next 10 mins Kerry played good stuff. Lyne, Darren, Colm and ? hit diagonal ball to Donaghy and 1.02 ensued. Lyne needs to wise up as regards tackling as his hand is being grabbed by his man when he "leaves it in". Definitely a man for the future though and his accurate footpassing and ability to kicks points are important. It was another Lyne footpass that put Paul Murphy through for that goal chance. In my opinion, Tommy Walsh did well when playing around the 40 in this game. His quick hands and awareness of colleagues is best suited there and he is another outlet for a hard pressed defense. Boot it high to TW at 11 if you are running out of options. I still feel like hiding behind the couch when Kealy considers shortish kickouts. When he lamped it long in the second half Kerry won most of them. All in all, I enjoyed this game. I though Tyrone were heroic in their effort and a natural goal scorer like ONeill or Cananan or Mugsy wound have meant a different result.
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 9, 2015 20:42:44 GMT
Down had a goal disallowed for an illegal hand pass very similar to Donacha Walsh in the second half! Think there might be a bit if tinted glass paranoia with some posters when it comes to refs decisions against Kerry. I can be the same myself when it comes to Dublin , Every game has contentious decisions for both sides but when closely examined the refs are generally fair and mostly correct with their decisions. Kerry did not come near deserving anything from the game against a Down side who were far superior over the 70 mins all over the pitch. Though of course you're right about fans being biased (we all are) but I'm not sure I agree that refs are always mostly fair in a game, and I've never claimed that. I can think of the 2010 semi against Cork and the 2011 Qtr final against Tyrone (JOe McQ significant linesman in the first and referee in the 2nd) where I felt that alot of things or a couple of big things went against us. Also the ref in the 2005 Qtr final replay sticks in my mind too (not Joe McQ). And then there was the 2012 semi against Mayo, once again it was Joe McQ and IMO he very much rode us and that was after alot of pre-game propoganda against him. Mind you, I don't recall any other counties' supporters or the media agreeing with me about those occasions (surprise surprise, people see what they want to see) so I'm not inclined to be sympathetic in return. C'est la vie. bejasus rashers... no mention of 1978. Are you finally over it?
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Apr 9, 2015 22:32:14 GMT
Though of course you're right about fans being biased (we all are) but I'm not sure I agree that refs are always mostly fair in a game, and I've never claimed that. I can think of the 2010 semi against Cork and the 2011 Qtr final against Tyrone (JOe McQ significant linesman in the first and referee in the 2nd) where I felt that alot of things or a couple of big things went against us. Also the ref in the 2005 Qtr final replay sticks in my mind too (not Joe McQ). And then there was the 2012 semi against Mayo, once again it was Joe McQ and IMO he very much rode us and that was after alot of pre-game propoganda against him. Mind you, I don't recall any other counties' supporters or the media agreeing with me about those occasions (surprise surprise, people see what they want to see) so I'm not inclined to be sympathetic in return. C'est la vie. bejasus rashers... no mention of 1978. Are you finally over it? Not sure Mick, Kevin Mac might have one more goal up his slieve, a lob over the Kerry goaly whilst he's telling Joe McQ how not to burn a cake
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Post by sinkthelead on Apr 10, 2015 0:06:32 GMT
bejasus rashers... no mention of 1978. Are you finally over it? Not sure Mick, Kevin Mac might have one more goal up his slieve, a lob over the Kerry goaly whilst he's telling Joe McQ how not to burn a cake very good
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Apr 10, 2015 6:59:07 GMT
Skip to 2:57. Overhand? Lateral at most but closer to underhand than overhand. If I remember correctly lateral handpasses weren't necessarily illegal. To blow for it was extremely nitpicky. The rules that year didn't say that handpasses had to be made with a closed fist. As long as there was a striking action you could do an open handpass. "The rules that year..." summarises the nonsense fittingly
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 10, 2015 7:28:13 GMT
didn't Kevin McStay settle the matter on TSG that night. T'was a "lateral" handpass
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Apr 10, 2015 8:14:00 GMT
It was a very marginal call, as was the one against Coulter, as far as can be told from the view. One thing about the two incidents that can't be denied - the first one was not at that point an almost certain goal, and the Down players clearly stopped when the whistle blew.
In the 2nd incident it was a virtually certain goal, and the Kerry defender and keeper didn't stop, and the ball went into the net. Furthermore, the earlier goal was very early in the game with plenty of time for things to change. The 2nd disallowed goal would surely have killed the game off and subsequently Kerry had the chances to get right back into it. I'm further convinced that the ref only disallowed the 2nd goal/blew up for the pass because of the first incident.
At the time of the blow up for the first incident a goal was far from certain. At the time of the 2nd incident it was a pass to create an almost certain goal. I'd be curious to know when exactly did the whistle blow for that, and even if it was an umpire's call? The ref can't have had a better view than those watching the telly and that view isn't very good.
For sure though I've no idea what prompted the ref to start blowing for marginal hand-passes that day, maybe he had a visual 'fart' that made it look more blatant to him. He also made a terrible call by blowing a free for the Down forward when he was clean through for a 2-on-2 on goal.
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