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Post by Mickmack on Mar 20, 2015 23:28:27 GMT
As a Rebel I empathise completely with the disappointment being felt here with the result last night but following 2014 you should be far from despondent. It is my firm belief that the incubator effect of CIT and UCC for concentrating Cork football talent for a few years after minor level has been a major factor in Corks recent successes at U21 level. A significant number of the players from the last few years have all been nurtured in these institutions resulting in better physical conditioning, preparation and most importantly unity of purpose and approach. Most of these guys during their time in these places have fallen under the tutelage of experienced and successful coaches and the fact that in a county with the spread we have that all these guys are based in the city for the crucial few months leading up to the commencement of the U21 FC cannot be understated. I am sure the Kerry management given that guys were probably spread from West Kerry to Cork, Limerick and beyond over the last few months has limited the amount of meaningful preparation that could happen during the week and weekends may have been used for cramming. Unless Kerry have an exceptional team, Cork will have the upperhand at u21 given their advantage in having most of their players in CIT and UCC as the above post says and this point was made as well last year. The timing of the competition suits Cork down to a tee kerrygaa.proboards.com/thread/5355/kerry-u21-team-2014?page=6But by the time these players are 24 I would be confident that Kerry players will have the upper hand
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Premier
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Post by Premier on Mar 20, 2015 23:29:09 GMT
If I had my way I would seek out Dara OCinneide and coax him to take this job. His articles in the examiner displays an innate understanding of the game. Wonderfully written and insightful. He has emotional intelligence and is a natural leader and like EF, someone that people will look up to and want to play for. EF wrote exceptional articles in 2009 too when he was in Jacks management team and you could clearly see a sharp football brain. Indeed, Jacks articles during 2007 displayed a similar characteristic. The next u21 manager could well end up replacing EF so its a vital appointment. Of course, Dara OCinneide may have no interest but I would make the approach if I had it in my gift to do so. I think we've all learned that you can't give a man a job of this magnitude based on so-called persona in the dressing room. The hard facts are that you have to have good experience on the line if we wanna rescue this grade
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Post by Mickmack on Mar 21, 2015 10:10:39 GMT
If I had my way I would seek out Dara OCinneide and coax him to take this job. His articles in the examiner displays an innate understanding of the game. Wonderfully written and insightful. He has emotional intelligence and is a natural leader and like EF, someone that people will look up to and want to play for. EF wrote exceptional articles in 2009 too when he was in Jacks management team and you could clearly see a sharp football brain. Indeed, Jacks articles during 2007 displayed a similar characteristic. The next u21 manager could well end up replacing EF so its a vital appointment. Of course, Dara OCinneide may have no interest but I would make the approach if I had it in my gift to do so. I think we've all learned that you can't give a man a job of this magnitude based on so-called persona in the dressing room. The hard facts are that you have to have good experience on the line if we wanna rescue this grade Did Eamonn Fitzmaurice set the world on fire at u21. My take on it is that you need a guy that knows the game, can read the game, has tactical nous, has leadership, and can inspire. Both Pat Driscoll and Dara OConneide have those traits in my view but I would go for Dara as he could in time manage the senior team. The heavy lifting of training and physical stuff can be delegated to those experts.
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Jo90
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Post by Jo90 on Mar 21, 2015 10:19:32 GMT
I'd say Kerry have provided more players to UCC's Sigerson team over the years including 14 of the starting 15 at one stage so I don't buy that argument. Fitzmaurice and Jack O'Connor were no great shakes as U21 managers but turned out OK as senior level. Eamonn didn't have the players, Jack lost to Waterford with a team that had gooch, Declan OS, Donaghy, Bryan Sheehan, Quill, Scanlon, etc. Next year is must win in Munster. At home with the 2 corresponding minor teams having won Munster and an All-Ireland
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Post by Mickmack on Mar 21, 2015 10:24:28 GMT
It would be interesting to know how many of the Cork u21 sides from the past 4 years were part of the regime in UCC and CIT that Paddy Cagney spells out so well in his post.
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Post by glengael on Mar 21, 2015 10:47:16 GMT
Jack O'Connor were no great shakes as U21 managers but turned out OK as senior level
I must have dreamt that All Ireland success in 1998 then! Jeez some of ye are fierce hard to please....
I know I've asked this before without success but when/why was the U-21 Championship changed from summer to winter/spring?
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Post by hurlingman on Mar 21, 2015 11:08:48 GMT
I'd say Kerry have provided more players to UCC's Sigerson team over the years including 14 of the starting 15 at one stage so I don't buy that argument. Fitzmaurice and Jack O'Connor were no great shakes as U21 managers but turned out OK as senior level. Eamonn didn't have the players, Jack lost to Waterford with a team that had gooch, Declan OS, Donaghy, Bryan Sheehan, Quill, Scanlon, etc. Next year is must win in Munster. At home with the 2 corresponding minor teams having won Munster and an All-Ireland All Ireland title in 98? Also made the final the following year
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Jo90
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Post by Jo90 on Mar 21, 2015 12:11:10 GMT
Was talking more about JOC's last couple of years at u21. Had the players but little success.
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Post by hurlingman on Mar 21, 2015 12:49:56 GMT
Can anyone think of a reason why Pat Driscoll of Ardfert shouldn't get the Kerry u21 job? What has he done in the Kerry county championship with a few different teams? What had EF or JOC for that matter done in the county championship before they got the job?
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Post by kerrygold on Mar 21, 2015 18:05:08 GMT
I can't see anything being rushed regarding the appointment of the next u21 manager, it probably wouldn't happen until after this summer's football is put to bed.
The natural progression would suggest that JOC will be in poll position to progress with the group of players he has brought through the minor grades.
If Jack has an eye on managing the Kerry seniors again, which I would think he will, then it makes perfect sense for him to bring the next generation through the u21 grade for a few years.
Eamonn could be looking for a three in a row in 2016 so I can't see him exiting the senior job for an number of years yet.
Eamonn and Jack work well together, so for me the natural order of things in the boot camp would be JOC as the next u21 manager and to succeed Eamonn in time.
I'll eat my hat if the next 3-5 years don't pan out in this manner, assuming that Jack will still be available to Kerry to manage Kerry teams in the near future!
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Mar 21, 2015 18:34:13 GMT
Eamonn could be looking for a three in a row in 2016 so I can't see him existing the senior job for an number of years yet. Steady on!
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Mar 23, 2015 12:00:28 GMT
Is Spillane not worth considering? He wants a cut off it and did well with Kenmare.
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Premier
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Post by Premier on Mar 23, 2015 13:59:54 GMT
Is Spillane not worth considering? He wants a cut off it and did well with Kenmare. Wouldn't be my cup of tea if I'm being honest
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seamus
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Post by seamus on Mar 23, 2015 14:10:36 GMT
Management pedigree should trump playing pedigree. Great players don't usually make great managers. Stephen Stack will surely come into the equation if Jack O'Connor doesnt want to move up.
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Post by frankgalvintralee on Mar 23, 2015 14:52:38 GMT
Is Spillane not worth considering? He wants a cut off it and did well with Kenmare. Wouldn't be my cup of tea if I'm being honest Spillane should be given a chance most definitely I dont understand how they pick there players. 21 championship should be on in January to show Daragh what players are available sure he could be missing out on some new emerging good players who are around the age of 21 but no he has to pick on peoples performances from u21 co championship in the summer the year before! Or he should have open trials or something
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Post by shannonsider on Mar 23, 2015 16:34:32 GMT
Wouldn't be my cup of tea if I'm being honest Spillane should be given a chance most definitely I dont understand how they pick there players. 21 championship should be on in January to show Daragh what players are available sure he could be missing out on some new emerging good players who are around the age of 21 but no he has to pick on peoples performances from u21 co championship in the summer the year before! Or he should have open trials or something90% of the under 21 squad played Sigerson Cup in January/February. Darragh's problem was that he picked the wrong players in the wrong positions, NOT that he didn't have a chance to do so. Why should Spillane be given a chance "most definitely" when the it's likely that a proven AI winning minor, under 21 AND Senior manager will take on the job? Also, laughable suggestions that Dara O'Cinnéide should get the job based on a couple of columns in the Examiner. This is the kind of thinking that has lead to 7 years of horrific results at this level. WHO you are doesn't matter if you haven't a clue how to coach, manage and select a squad.
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Post by buck02 on Mar 23, 2015 17:37:11 GMT
Spillane should be given a chance most definitely I dont understand how they pick there players. 21 championship should be on in January to show Daragh what players are available sure he could be missing out on some new emerging good players who are around the age of 21 but no he has to pick on peoples performances from u21 co championship in the summer the year before! Or he should have open trials or something90% of the under 21 squad played Sigerson Cup in January/February. Darragh's problem was that he picked the wrong players in the wrong positions, NOT that he didn't have a chance to do so. Why should Spillane be given a chance "most definitely" when the it's likely that a proven AI winning minor, under 21 AND Senior manager will take on the job? Also, laughable suggestions that Dara O'Cinnéide should get the job based on a couple of columns in the Examiner. This is the kind of thinking that has lead to 7 years of horrific results at this level. WHO you are doesn't matter if you haven't a clue how to coach, manage and select a squad. Easy there - I was just about the suggest Veteran for the U21 job.
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Post by givehimaball on Mar 23, 2015 18:04:34 GMT
Is Spillane not worth considering? He wants a cut off it and did well with Kenmare. How much of the Kenmare U21 result would people put down to the quality of the players available versus the quality of the management? Given that a serious chunk of the Kenmare side were the side that lost the minor final in 2012 by a single score, I find it hard to give all that much credit to the management, especially given the nature of the U21 final.
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Post by Mickmack on Mar 23, 2015 18:09:11 GMT
Spillane should be given a chance most definitely I dont understand how they pick there players. 21 championship should be on in January to show Daragh what players are available sure he could be missing out on some new emerging good players who are around the age of 21 but no he has to pick on peoples performances from u21 co championship in the summer the year before! Or he should have open trials or something90% of the under 21 squad played Sigerson Cup in January/February. Darragh's problem was that he picked the wrong players in the wrong positions, NOT that he didn't have a chance to do so. Why should Spillane be given a chance "most definitely" when the it's likely that a proven AI winning minor, under 21 AND Senior manager will take on the job? Also, laughable suggestions that Dara O'Cinnéide should get the job based on a couple of columns in the Examiner. This is the kind of thinking that has lead to 7 years of horrific results at this level. WHO you are doesn't matter if you haven't a clue how to coach, manage and select a squad. That the kind of thinking that couldn't see the merit in Mike Quirke at fullback!
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Post by frankgalvintralee on Mar 23, 2015 18:12:55 GMT
Spillane should be given a chance most definitely I dont understand how they pick there players. 21 championship should be on in January to show Daragh what players are available sure he could be missing out on some new emerging good players who are around the age of 21 but no he has to pick on peoples performances from u21 co championship in the summer the year before! Or he should have open trials or something90% of the under 21 squad played Sigerson Cup in January/February. Darragh's problem was that he picked the wrong players in the wrong positions, NOT that he didn't have a chance to do so. Why should Spillane be given a chance "most definitely" when the it's likely that a proven AI winning minor, under 21 AND Senior manager will take on the job? Also, laughable suggestions that Dara O'Cinnéide should get the job based on a couple of columns in the Examiner. This is the kind of thinking that has lead to 7 years of horrific results at this level. WHO you are doesn't matter if you haven't a clue how to coach, manage and select a squad. Yes u may be right about the players being seen but there are more players out there that don't play sigerson i still believe open trials would show a few players that they may not have seen! but Adrian Spillane could not make the panel a young lad in his last year i think its a fair joke he made it last year?? and some of last years minor brought in just because they won an all Ireland not doubting there football skills but are not up to the physicality! Agree with you on the Cinneide remarks they are a bit ludicrous but he may do the job well! On your point of Spillane who is saying Jack will go on with this group he may not and if he don't Spillane deserves a go simple as why not give him a chance like what can he do wrong??
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Premier
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Post by Premier on Mar 23, 2015 18:36:29 GMT
90% of the under 21 squad played Sigerson Cup in January/February. Darragh's problem was that he picked the wrong players in the wrong positions, NOT that he didn't have a chance to do so. Why should Spillane be given a chance "most definitely" when the it's likely that a proven AI winning minor, under 21 AND Senior manager will take on the job? Also, laughable suggestions that Dara O'Cinnéide should get the job based on a couple of columns in the Examiner. This is the kind of thinking that has lead to 7 years of horrific results at this level. WHO you are doesn't matter if you haven't a clue how to coach, manage and select a squad. Yes u may be right about the players being seen but there are more players out there that don't play sigerson i still believe open trials would show a few players that they may not have seen! but Adrian Spillane could not make the panel a young lad in his last year i think its a fair joke he made it last year?? and some of last years minor brought in just because they won an all Ireland not doubting there football skills but are not up to the physicality! Agree with you on the Cinneide remarks they are a bit ludicrous but he may do the job well! On your point of Spillane who is saying Jack will go on with this group he may not and if he don't Spillane deserves a go simple as why not give him a chance like what can he do wrong?? Shannonsider I have no idea where you are getting the figure of 90% from. As far as I can tell only Denis Daly, Cathal Long, Jack Barry, Gavin Crowely Brian Crowely Jack Savage and Conor Keane are the only starters who played Sigerson. And only another 5 from both subs and extended panel bringing it to a measly 12 out of 30 odd.. With regard to Spillane 'deserving a go', we are in far too precarious a position for sentiment. Also a hell of a lot can go 'wrong' and I won't be rushing to the bookies if he's appointed u21 manager with arguably the 2 strongest years on the way
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Post by frankgalvintralee on Mar 23, 2015 18:49:17 GMT
Yes u may be right about the players being seen but there are more players out there that don't play sigerson i still believe open trials would show a few players that they may not have seen! but Adrian Spillane could not make the panel a young lad in his last year i think its a fair joke he made it last year?? and some of last years minor brought in just because they won an all Ireland not doubting there football skills but are not up to the physicality! Agree with you on the Cinneide remarks they are a bit ludicrous but he may do the job well! On your point of Spillane who is saying Jack will go on with this group he may not and if he don't Spillane deserves a go simple as why not give him a chance like what can he do wrong?? Shannonsider I have no idea where you are getting the figure of 90% from. As far as I can tell only Denis Daly, Cathal Long, Jack Barry, Gavin Crowely Brian Crowely Jack Savage and Conor Keane are the only starters who played Sigerson. And only another 5 from both subs and extended panel bringing it to a measly 12 out of 30 odd.. With regard to Spillane 'deserving a go', we are in far too precarious a position for sentiment. Also a hell of a lot can go 'wrong' and I won't be rushing to the bookies if he's appointed u21 manager with arguably the 2 strongest years on the way i see your point premier maybe you are correct
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Post by A.N. Other on Mar 23, 2015 19:08:27 GMT
I agree its implausible to play the U21 Championship in January or February. People seem to forget the majority of these players are either playing Sigurson or Trench cup at this time of year. I'd imagine alot of our lads would be on scholarships and relying on bursarys also to fund college, so missing more college time may become a disadvantage to them with regards to these.
I think people really underestimate the commitment by some of these lads also. Alot of them are travelling once if not twice a week down to Kerry for training and back up that evening/night. That does get fairly streneous, especially if you're trying to hold down a part time job on weekends on top of that. Knowing a few lads involved they are constantly on the go between training, travelling to training, college work and part time work on weekends.
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Post by kerrygold on Mar 23, 2015 19:17:26 GMT
I cant see beyond JOC moving up to u21 to be honest.
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Post by badknee on Mar 23, 2015 19:34:11 GMT
With regards playing 21 championship in jan/feb i dont know would management take much notice of it anyway considering they musnt have taken any notice of the sigerson competition this year. When our 1 player who played each game and got man of the match in the sigerson semi final was left sitting on our bench for the whole game. Same with leaving a man who started an all ireland club semifinal sitting on the bench for the entire game aswell. Both decisions were baffling. Both would have made a big difference aswell. Seems to be missed by alot of people on here.
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Post by shannonsider on Mar 23, 2015 20:51:16 GMT
Yes u may be right about the players being seen but there are more players out there that don't play sigerson i still believe open trials would show a few players that they may not have seen! but Adrian Spillane could not make the panel a young lad in his last year i think its a fair joke he made it last year?? and some of last years minor brought in just because they won an all Ireland not doubting there football skills but are not up to the physicality! Agree with you on the Cinneide remarks they are a bit ludicrous but he may do the job well! On your point of Spillane who is saying Jack will go on with this group he may not and if he don't Spillane deserves a go simple as why not give him a chance like what can he do wrong?? Shannonsider I have no idea where you are getting the figure of 90% from. As far as I can tell only Denis Daly, Cathal Long, Jack Barry, Gavin Crowely Brian Crowely Jack Savage and Conor Keane are the only starters who played Sigerson. And only another 5 from both subs and extended panel bringing it to a measly 12 out of 30 odd.. With regard to Spillane 'deserving a go', we are in far too precarious a position for sentiment. Also a hell of a lot can go 'wrong' and I won't be rushing to the bookies if he's appointed u21 manager with arguably the 2 strongest years on the way Apologies, let me re-phrase that..A LOT of the panel played in 3rd level competitions. 17 of the 24 man panel were involved in Sigerson, Trench or Fresher championship squads, that I can see, may be more. In the extended panel, Adrian Spillane played the McGrath cup final for UCC although didn't play in the Sigerson. David Foran played Trench cup for Mary I. I guess what I was trying to get across is that, having watched a lot of the 3rd level games, some of the selections made little sense. As many have said already, Gary O'Sullivan was highly influential for UCC in midfield and didn't even get a run. No point going into it all again now. Just want to get the best possible management in place going forward. In my view, Jack is head and shoulders the standout candidate...and anyone who says that Spillane or O'Cinnéide are even on the same level is bonkers.
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Post by shannonsider on Mar 23, 2015 20:56:41 GMT
90% of the under 21 squad played Sigerson Cup in January/February. Darragh's problem was that he picked the wrong players in the wrong positions, NOT that he didn't have a chance to do so. Why should Spillane be given a chance "most definitely" when the it's likely that a proven AI winning minor, under 21 AND Senior manager will take on the job? Also, laughable suggestions that Dara O'Cinnéide should get the job based on a couple of columns in the Examiner. This is the kind of thinking that has lead to 7 years of horrific results at this level. WHO you are doesn't matter if you haven't a clue how to coach, manage and select a squad. Easy there - I was just about the suggest Veteran for the U21 job. We could do worse!
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Post by onlykerry on Mar 23, 2015 21:21:12 GMT
Can anybody explain why the timing of the U21 football is so different from the hurling. U21 grade relies a lot on students and timing suits counties that have home universities to a degree - less travel and easier to have squad together. Football U21 later in year would be more logical. Spillane is not the right Man for U21's - no real experience, too long out of game and too many relatives coming of age. I think punditry and management don't make good bedfellows.
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Post by Mickmack on Mar 23, 2015 21:35:44 GMT
I don't think anyone said that Spillane or OCinneide are on the same level as Jack.
Jack stands alone in my book. He rescued us in 2004 and saw leadership in EF and brought him into his management team and this paved the way for EF to succeed him.
We should now look to have another option when EF steps down. This management effort is something that's not sustainable for a young man on a long term basis. We cant be certain that Jack will want all of that again.
If Dara OCinneide sees himself as a future Kerry manager (and I think he has the requisite skillset) then taking the U21s would be an ideal stepping stone. Of course, he may have no such ambitions.
One of EFs greatest attributes is his lack of ego and his ability to let his players take the credit. That's leadership. Pat Spillane would be a polar opposite in my view and I cant even begin to contemplate him as a contender.
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Post by dashboard on Mar 23, 2015 22:22:03 GMT
Bad knee giving out about fellas not being on is fine and well but all of these panel of player's put in a huge amount of time and effort in and rightly or wrongly I'm sure that team was picked on how they were going in training.I can't think of any reason why the selector's wouldn't pick what they thought were the fifteen that were showing up the best I would have loads of sympathy for the fellas that didn't get a run or weren't on they are all fine player's but they can't all play kerry played 5 or 6 games before last Wednesday everyone had a chance to stake a claim.
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