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Post by dc84 on Aug 31, 2020 8:01:37 GMT
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mandad
Senior Member
Posts: 448
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Post by mandad on Aug 31, 2020 10:20:52 GMT
How David chooses to behave under provocation is his business, but he needs to realise that choice affects the remainder of the team and the likelihood of negative outcomes. He is just one of the county panelists that have been red-carded recently. The obvious questions will be, are they being targeted, not protected by officials or are they too easily provoked? Any perceived weakness in that respect will only be exploited at the higher level of competition.
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Post by buck02 on Aug 31, 2020 12:10:10 GMT
How David chooses to behave under provocation is his business, but he needs to realise that choice affects the remainder of the team and the likelihood of negative outcomes. He is just one of the county panelists that have been red-carded recently. The obvious questions will be, are they being targeted, not protected by officials or are they too easily provoked? Any perceived weakness in that respect will only be exploited at the higher level of competition. David knows how to look after himself but you would have to say that his main weakness is his discipline. Now he is subject to some awful crap on the pitch and a recent Junior Championship game highlighted this. But he has been sent off a lot at club level over the years and really needs to reign it in a bit or it will cost him and Kerry dearly in the future.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 31, 2020 15:47:10 GMT
I’ll have to disagree with this in general as I’ve seen Clifford play a lot in the championship and get very little protection from refs.
The biggest issue in the GAA today is skilful players being targeted in games and getting zero protection from the officials.
They need a second ref on the field & they need to cut out all the unnecessary holding & wrestling of forwards that goes on. People come to watch players like Clifford play & not whatever hammer thrower is put on him to “do a job” this week.
Connolly was essentially forced into retirement by Lee Keegan being allowed to wrestle and punch him off the ball with impunity, so let’s hope we don’t see the same with Clifford.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 31, 2020 15:49:40 GMT
How David chooses to behave under provocation is his business, but he needs to realise that choice affects the remainder of the team and the likelihood of negative outcomes. He is just one of the county panelists that have been red-carded recently. The obvious questions will be, are they being targeted, not protected by officials or are they too easily provoked? Any perceived weakness in that respect will only be exploited at the higher level of competition. David knows how to look after himself but you would have to say that his main weakness is his discipline. Now he is subject to some awful crap on the pitch and a recent Junior Championship game highlighted this. But he has been sent off a lot at club level over the years and really needs to reign it in a bit or it will cost him and Kerry dearly in the future. He gets treated like a punchbag at club level, same when playing for EK. If it goes on for 60 mins without the officials doing anything then any player would react. Skilful players need to be protected, not targeted. People don’t go to watch mulliker corner backs who can barely hand pass a ball
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2020 17:23:08 GMT
I think you have to differentiate between county and club level when it comes to Cliffords discipline. I think with the latter guys can provoke a bit more and get away with it. At county level, a lot of the messing is captured by cameras and in theory there should be better officials also.
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 31, 2020 18:17:58 GMT
So
St Brendans V East Kerry
Crokes v Mid Kerry
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Post by onlykerry on Aug 31, 2020 18:18:08 GMT
I think you have to differentiate between county and club level when it comes to Cliffords discipline. I think with the latter guys can provoke a bit more and get away with it. At county level, a lot of the messing is captured by cameras and in theory there should be better officials also. Sadly I think you overestimate the protection at county level - ask Gooch about fingers in eyes in AI finals (cameras everywhere) etc. Watch the way big full forwards are restrained by full backs year in year out - Michael Murphy, Tommy Walsh and even Aiden O Shea. Strangely teams that have great players deserving of more protection are more than capable of dishing out the crap when it works for them - Possibly the citing system in rugby is the only way of cracking down on this - a three match ban for something not picked up by the referee during a game may put manners on the instigators and pressure management not to encourage it.
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 31, 2020 18:20:34 GMT
Does Seanie O'Shea get much 'treatment' playing for Kenmare?
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Post by The16thMan on Aug 31, 2020 19:04:05 GMT
It's East Kerry's championship to loose in my opinion. As good as Brendans have been in their 2 games I fancy East Kerry to have the quality without David Clifford to get past them. David will be back for the final if they progress and I would fancy them to beat Crokes/Mid Kerry in a final. Crokes v Mid Kerry should go the way of the Killarney side but Mid Kerry have a good spine within the team that could cause Crokes a few problems. Even at that I think we'll have a repeat of last year's final.
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Post by veteran on Aug 31, 2020 19:49:39 GMT
Regardless of the circumstances it is always hugely disappointing when a top of the range player is missing from a particular match. Indeed in the case of the upcoming East Kerry/St. Brendans game , TG4/RTÉ may decide to overlook transmission because the golden boy will be absent. That would be a shame..
I cannot comment on the recent red card because I was not at the match. However, there is no doubt that the top forwards are targeted at both club and county level , very often at the behest of management, It is very likely that the player who is most inclined to retaliate is more likely to be the target.Surely , the officials are aware that the better forwards attract abuse and should react accordingly. How? Good communication with his team of helpers and an early yellow card to the transgressor would encourage good manners. Of course, the issuing of yellow cards to both transgressor and victim nullifies the exercise. Unfortunately that is the usual , lazy approach of most referees.
Mickmack makes a reasonable point about the forward offering it up and waiting for the “next ball”. As he said , Mikey adopted that attitude as indeed did Maurice Fitzgerald. Perhaps in time, David may adopt that approach. However, it is a sad reflection on our game and our standard of officiating if our out of the ordinary performers are not allowed to flourish. As Kerrybhoy said these are the lads we especially want to see play. . They are a rare species while mullockers are two a penny.
Finally, it is often said here and elsewhere that county players often escape censure where in the same circumstances the “ ordinary “ club player would not. There possibly is some truth in that. However. I certainly knew of one referee some years back who wore it as a badge of honour if he sent off an intercounty player in a club match,.
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 31, 2020 20:11:12 GMT
I would qualify that Veteren by saying that there can be occasions when throwing a haymaker is absolutely the right thing to do ...such as when 8 points down in the last minute of injury time in an all ireland semi final and Aiden o Shea has just stamped on your toes.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 31, 2020 20:45:05 GMT
Regardless of the circumstances it is always hugely disappointing when a top of the range player is missing from a particular match. Indeed in the case of the upcoming East Kerry/St. Brendans game , TG4/RTÉ may decide to overlook transmission because the golden boy will be absent. That would be a shame.. I cannot comment on the recent red card because I was not at the match. However, there is no doubt that the top forwards are targeted at both club and county level , very often at the behest of management, It is very likely that the player who is most inclined to retaliate is more likely to be the target.Surely , the officials are aware that the better forwards attract abuse and should react accordingly. How? Good communication with his team of helpers and an early yellow card to the transgressor would encourage good manners. Of course, the issuing of yellow cards to both transgressor and victim nullifies the exercise. Unfortunately that is the usual , lazy approach of most referees. Mickmack makes a reasonable point about the forward offering it up and waiting for the “next ball”. As he said , Mikey adopted that attitude as indeed did Maurice Fitzgerald. Perhaps in time, David may adopt that approach. However, it is a sad reflection on our game and our standard of officiating if our out of the ordinary performers are not allowed to flourish. As Kerrybhoy said these are the lads we especially want to see play. . They are a rare species while mullockers are two a penny. Finally, it is often said here and elsewhere that county players often escape censure where in the same circumstances the “ ordinary “ club player would not. There possibly is some truth in that. However. I certainly knew of one referee some years back who wore it as a badge of honour if he sent off an intercounty player in a club match,. I do agree that it would be great if lads would ignore the 'treatment' but not everyone can do that & if such 'treatment' is being dished out then officials should deal with it anyway. This is not just against St. Kierans as every club & county do it & get away with it. You see it all the time with good forwards being targeted & you will often see markers being rotated onto players in the hope of getting them 2 yellows. I know it happened to Clifford against Tyrone last year but I have seen at least 2 Kerry clubs try the same. The skillful players in our game need to be protected, it cant be any other way
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Post by buck02 on Sept 1, 2020 9:54:25 GMT
Does Seanie O'Shea get much 'treatment' playing for Kenmare? A game a few years ago against Crokes in Killarney in the county championship springs to mind. I'm nearly sure it was 2017 after Mayo had beaten Kerry in the replay. Seanie had played well in the first half and a lot of the focus was on him after he got no run against Mayo and hadn't been allowed play in an U 21 county final. As the players lined up for the 2nd half two Crokes players ran at Seanie and a melee ensued. My memory of it was the ref booked two from each team and Seanie was one of them. Which is another example of what a few posters said about Clifford. I cant say I have seen many Kenmare games but I also cant remember many reports of Seanie getting straight reds in club games.
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Post by piggott on Sept 1, 2020 11:02:59 GMT
Regardless of the circumstances it is always hugely disappointing when a top of the range player is missing from a particular match. Indeed in the case of the upcoming East Kerry/St. Brendans game , TG4/RTÉ may decide to overlook transmission because the golden boy will be absent. That would be a shame.. I cannot comment on the recent red card because I was not at the match. However, there is no doubt that the top forwards are targeted at both club and county level , very often at the behest of management, It is very likely that the player who is most inclined to retaliate is more likely to be the target.Surely , the officials are aware that the better forwards attract abuse and should react accordingly. How? Good communication with his team of helpers and an early yellow card to the transgressor would encourage good manners. Of course, the issuing of yellow cards to both transgressor and victim nullifies the exercise. Unfortunately that is the usual , lazy approach of most referees. Mickmack makes a reasonable point about the forward offering it up and waiting for the “next ball”. As he said , Mikey adopted that attitude as indeed did Maurice Fitzgerald. Perhaps in time, David may adopt that approach. However, it is a sad reflection on our game and our standard of officiating if our out of the ordinary performers are not allowed to flourish. As Kerrybhoy said these are the lads we especially want to see play. . They are a rare species while mullockers are two a penny. Finally, it is often said here and elsewhere that county players often escape censure where in the same circumstances the “ ordinary “ club player would not. There possibly is some truth in that. However. I certainly knew of one referee some years back who wore it as a badge of honour if he sent off an intercounty player in a club match,. Mick O'Connell used to be targeted big time, and it often worked. I remember he took matters into his own hands once against Larry Coughlan of Offaly, and he got no red card.
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Post by onlykerry on Sept 1, 2020 11:15:03 GMT
Football has as much psychology as phyicality about it at times - getting inside a players head can be as important as being able to track and jump against him. This is true of the game in all era's and cameras have only made it more obvious. Good players will be targeted with whatever tactics are known to work - SOS gets as much focus as DC but the problem for DC is he known to react more than SOS and therefore the tactic is used all the more often. Every team is looking for the weak points in the opposition and in particular in the oppositions big players - how you minimise the influence of the opponents big players decides games. It has been commented on here before that DC needs to be careful he does not develop a reputation for reacting as it only encourages the tactic and referees are watching for it more and more.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2020 11:26:13 GMT
There is a difference between being targeted in the half forward line and full forward line. It is easier to exact some revenge around the middle of the field than inside
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Sept 1, 2020 12:19:48 GMT
Does Seanie O'Shea get much 'treatment' playing for Kenmare? A game a few years ago against Crokes in Killarney in the county championship springs to mind. I'm nearly sure it was 2017 after Mayo had beaten Kerry in the replay. Seanie had played well in the first half and a lot of the focus was on him after he got no run against Mayo and hadn't been allowed play in an U 21 county final. As the players lined up for the 2nd half two Crokes players ran at Seanie and a melee ensued. My memory of it was the ref booked two from each team and Seanie was one of them. Which is another example of what a few posters said about Clifford. I cant say I have seen many Kenmare games but I also cant remember many reports of Seanie getting straight reds in club games. The club in question are one of the clubs I was referring to aswell- masters of the rotate players onto better forwards & start rows to get yellow cards! I suppose they are just exploring a loophole in the rules
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Sept 1, 2020 12:24:17 GMT
Football has as much psychology as phyicality about it at times - getting inside a players head can be as important as being able to track and jump against him. This is true of the game in all era's and cameras have only made it more obvious. Good players will be targeted with whatever tactics are known to work - SOS gets as much focus as DC but the problem for DC is he known to react more than SOS and therefore the tactic is used all the more often. Every team is looking for the weak points in the opposition and in particular in the oppositions big players - how you minimise the influence of the opponents big players decides games. It has been commented on here before that DC needs to be careful he does not develop a reputation for reacting as it only encourages the tactic and referees are watching for it more and more. If the rules of the game are applied then a lot of targeting wouldn’t happen. Every game looks to protect its skilful players. Soccer does, American football has restrictions on how you can tackle the QB, Rugby has citing & there was a huge furore when Glasgow were targeting Conor Murray 3 years ago. Sports do this because they know that people come to watch their skilful players & that’s what encourages kids to play the game. In GAA though the attitude of some seems to be “f*ck them, they have to put up with it & shouldn’t stand up for themselves”.
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Post by fairplay2all on Sept 1, 2020 12:44:00 GMT
There’s a lot of presumptions on here regarding the “treatment “ David Clifford got. He got nothing different than any other forward that lined up against the Kierans defence but maybe his fuse is that bit shorter!!
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Post by veteran on Sept 1, 2020 13:27:57 GMT
There’s a lot of presumptions on here regarding the “treatment “ David Clifford got. He got nothing different than any other forward that lined up against the Kierans defence but maybe his fuse is that bit shorter!! So all the St. Kieran defenders were at it! That referee must have a soft spot for defenders . I have a sneaking suspicion that David may have been singled out for a larger portion of this treatment. It would make sense if this is the chosen modus operandi of a particular back line. Only Kerry says that referees are watching out more and more for the player who reacts. It is extraordinary if it is true that they are keeping a closer eye on the provoked victim than the instigator. No wonder Jamie Clarke keeps walking away from football.
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 1, 2020 13:53:28 GMT
Was MichaelMurphy targeted in the 2014 final and if so did it cost Donegal that final?
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Post by southward on Sept 1, 2020 14:24:22 GMT
Was MichaelMurphy targeted in the 2014 final and if so did it cost Donegal that final? Kerry were the better side on that day. Would Donegal have won if Murphy had been more effective? Who knows, but you could equally speculate that Kerry would have been more comfortable if Eddie Kinsella hadn't given a load of soft frees to Donegal, particularly in the first half. Or if we hadn't been guilty of some poor wides ourselves. All moot points at the end of the day. In any case this isn't a whataboutery discussion. If Murphy was blackguarded that day, it doesn't make it alright now.
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Post by mitchelsontour on Sept 1, 2020 15:06:13 GMT
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Post by buck02 on Sept 1, 2020 15:09:13 GMT
There’s a lot of presumptions on here regarding the “treatment “ David Clifford got. He got nothing different than any other forward that lined up against the Kierans defence but maybe his fuse is that bit shorter!! Well an East Kerry back recognised the short fuse of a opponent in last years quarter final, met him with a shoulder (to an injured shoulder) and was decked ending with a red card for the offender. So lets not say they aren't all at it.
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Post by southward on Sept 1, 2020 15:45:22 GMT
Maybe some internal criticism but it's more likely that he's responding to moaning from outside the County. Really, he'd be better off not bothering, at least not to a national audience. Only giving the cribbers oxygen when it's none of anyone else's business.
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Post by clarinman on Sept 1, 2020 16:45:17 GMT
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Post by himself on Sept 1, 2020 18:49:18 GMT
I'm not disrespecting any opinions regarding the general point about top players being provoked, but I don't see how it applies to David's red card here. I obviously wasn't present, I can only go by what was recorded on livestream, but this notion that David was a victim would need to be substantiated for me to take it seriously. The evidence - not just that particular incident where David was the aggressor (he went into the defender, not the other way around) but the whole match recording indicates otherwise. As for the notion that his altercation with Lee Keegan ended Diarmuid Connolly's Dublin career? Complete nonsense. That card was rescinded, if you recall, and wrongfully so in my opinion. Keegan was the aggressor, but Connolly clearly reacted with the first, and that is a red card all day long.
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Post by piggott on Sept 1, 2020 18:53:00 GMT
He did say the number will not go above 16. So if clubs go to 12, Divisions will have to be reduced to 4.
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mandad
Senior Member
Posts: 448
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Post by mandad on Sept 1, 2020 19:22:39 GMT
I'm not disrespecting any opinions regarding the general point about top players being provoked, but I don't see how it applies to David's red card here. I obviously wasn't present, I can only go by what was recorded on livestream, but this notion that David was a victim would need to be substantiated for me to take it seriously. The evidence - not just that particular incident where David was the aggressor (he went into the defender, not the other way around) but the whole match recording indicates otherwise. As for the notion that his altercation with Lee Keegan ended Diarmuid Connolly's Dublin career? Complete nonsense. That card was rescinded, if you recall, and wrongfully so in my opinion. Keegan was the aggressor, but Connolly clearly reacted with the first, and that is a red card all day long. Off the ball stuff is as old as the game itself and despite a plethora of rule changes over the years, there remains a pervasive cynicism in Gaelic football whereby a player can be profitably mauled and manhandled. Getting red carded is not ‘looking after yourself. Anyone can become angry or frustrated - that is easy. But to be angry in the right way, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose and with better outcomes - that is not easy. The frustrated player can ask himself: “what are my choices here?” and “are there choices other than retaliating?” Players who lose their heads fail spectacularly because they are of no value to their team sitting in the dugout or in the dressing room. What I find particularly repulsive is this practice of enraged shouting into an opponent’s face (frequently in a lather of spittle) usually after a score. I cannot recall a referee ever taking any decisive action in relation to that. If you wind up an opponent in that way, then maybe you should expect a certain outcome. We could start by cutting that out.
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