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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Sept 1, 2020 20:11:52 GMT
I'm not disrespecting any opinions regarding the general point about top players being provoked, but I don't see how it applies to David's red card here. I obviously wasn't present, I can only go by what was recorded on livestream, but this notion that David was a victim would need to be substantiated for me to take it seriously. The evidence - not just that particular incident where David was the aggressor (he went into the defender, not the other way around) but the whole match recording indicates otherwise. As for the notion that his altercation with Lee Keegan ended Diarmuid Connolly's Dublin career? Complete nonsense. That card was rescinded, if you recall, and wrongfully so in my opinion. Keegan was the aggressor, but Connolly clearly reacted with the first, and that is a red card all day long. Dublin played Mayo several times over a 4 year period-every single game Connolly was punched, dragged and wrestled off the ball and every single time cowardly officiating failed to punish the instigator. A strong ref would have nipped this in the bud early. It's not one specific match, it's the collection of matches in which he didnt receive any protection from officials. Do you disagree with the idea that Mayo clearly & consistently targeted him for off the ball treatment? Did he get adequate protection from the official? We should apply the rules like they do in rugby, red to the instigator and yellow to the player defending himself
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Post by Ballyfireside on Sept 1, 2020 21:00:50 GMT
Goes on everywhere, seen it done to Murphy in club games, seen fellas put in up to Timmy Horse Kennelly back in the day, lesser laddos getting notions they could best him and of course there could only be one conclusion. A newly wed postman once took his chance in the town league, head down he ran at the horse only to suffer a concussion resulting in people receiving the wrong mail thereafter. What made made it even more embarrassing was that Horse didn't not even notice his ambusher in the long grass, let alone rise to him. And didn't poor postie also then forget he was married and so went home to the wrong house, missing out on the ritual that newly weds always got a rub down after a game.
All justifying Listowel's rightful claim to be the place 'where stories begin', maybe also where promising postmens careers, and marriages end. 'Twould be funny if it wasn't so serious and sure ya couldn't make it up, you wouldn't have to with such bravery in our midst!
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Post by himself on Sept 1, 2020 21:15:35 GMT
I agree with red to instigator and yellow to reactor. As for the rest of it, yes I disagree. Connolly is an absolutely brilliant footballer, but I missed this 'targetting'. He had disciplinary issues. Plain and simple, he was easy to wind up. That's a weakness, every player needs to get over it. The likes of Maurice Fitz, Seamus Moynihan, Colm Cooper always faced that problem and maintained composure. Same with the likes of Cluxton, the Brogans, Fenton. Was Connolly targeted by Gavin Crowley when he got a stupid black card that likely cost Dublin a League title? I'm not attacking him; I just don't buy into the victim trope. Stuff is magnified, usually unfairly, for headline players. That hero/villain nonsense should be left in red top newspapers and wind-up pundits, not the rest of us.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Sept 1, 2020 21:45:36 GMT
I wholeheartedly disagree with you that he wasnt targeted by Keegan - he was wrestled to the ground every time they played. It's not hero/villain nonsense as I think the same of a lot of players.
I think of all the things in the game today that we need to keep, the unnecessary handbags started by, usually, a defender in order to get 2 players a yellow is the last.
It happened to Connolly, it's happening to Clifford, it happened to Donaghy and it's a blight on the game.
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Post by clubman on Sept 2, 2020 8:28:20 GMT
I think Keegans targeting of Connolly is easily the most obvious example in the last few years. Connolly has a short fuse but there were several games where Keegan wasnt even hiding the attempts at winding him up, he was wrestling him to the ground on any occasion he could. And anyone that turns a blind eye to Mahonys marking of Murphy in the 14 final needs to take off the green and gold glasses, he got away with all sorts that day!
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 2, 2020 11:45:00 GMT
Has the county championship lost anything by being straight knockout.... i dont think so.
Better format. Same for the hurling championship.
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Post by Whosinmidfield on Sept 2, 2020 14:12:10 GMT
I purchased both the Saturday and Sunday live stream packages last weekend. I didn’t get to watch the Crokes vs Templenoe game at the time and now want to watch the “free replay” of it. But the problem is for some reason it will only allow me watch the Mid Kerry vs Kenmare game and it is the same for the Saturday games except I can watch the first game and not the second. It cost me 10 euro each time so it isn’t as if I somehow only bought one of the games. Does anyone know what’s the problem and what I can do?
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exiled
Senior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by exiled on Sept 2, 2020 17:22:16 GMT
I’ll have to disagree with this in general as I’ve seen Clifford play a lot in the championship and get very little protection from refs. The biggest issue in the GAA today is skilful players being targeted in games and getting zero protection from the officials. They need a second ref on the field & they need to cut out all the unnecessary holding & wrestling of forwards that goes on. People come to watch players like Clifford play & not whatever hammer thrower is put on him to “do a job” this week. Connolly was essentially forced into retirement by Lee Keegan being allowed to wrestle and punch him off the ball with impunity, so let’s hope we don’t see the same
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exiled
Senior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by exiled on Sept 2, 2020 17:24:18 GMT
I’ll have to disagree with this in general as I’ve seen Clifford play a lot in the championship and get very little protection from refs. The biggest issue in the GAA today is skilful players being targeted in games and getting zero protection from the officials. They need a second ref on the field & they need to cut out all the unnecessary holding & wrestling of forwards that goes on. People come to watch players like Clifford play & not whatever hammer thrower is put on him to “do a job” this week. Connolly was essentially forced into retirement by Lee Keegan being allowed to wrestle and punch him off the ball with impunity, so let’s hope we don’t see the same [/So Keegan gets footballer of the year for being a gouger..You really are a boy..
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Sept 2, 2020 18:50:05 GMT
I’d be interested to see where somebody said that Keegan got POTY for being a gouger? Let me know where you read it
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Post by himself on Sept 2, 2020 22:17:50 GMT
I never suggested that Keegan didn't target Connolly, I asked if you felt that Gavin Crowley targetted him in another one of his dismissals. I didn't think so at the time; I felt it was another indication of a weakness in Connolly's otherwise brilliant football. I pointed out that Connolly reacted with punches to Keegan's provocation, which is indiscipline and thereby a weakness that players like Maurice Fitz, Seamus Moynihan, and many more didn't have. It certainly didn't end his career, as was stated in straw man argument by kerrybhoy06, since his red card was overturned. His Dublin career ended in different circumstances; he was dropped. No reason has ever been given publicly. I don't see how it applies to David Clifford's red card as there is no indication on the tape of provocation similar to Keegans. I paid for the recording, so if you saw something in the incident that I didn't, please enlighten me. Whosinmidfield, that Kenmare game always seems to be queued first. If you login (the menu at the top of the screen) with your login reg and password, it gives you a list of the games you have paid for, and you can select the game you want. Overall, I find it a very good service. I'm looking forward to a rewatch of the county minor final; great game.
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Sept 3, 2020 7:44:15 GMT
Connolly can be riled up easily. Why not use that? It worked a treat for Mayo. Mayo rattled Dublin's cage much more than any other team did for a long while. In the end it didn't get them any results, but they did their best. I wonder though what would have happened if they had just focused on the football instead. Mayo used to be a team that played stylish and lovely football, but needed a bit of edge. In my opinion though they focused too much on that in the last decade and that is part of why they failed. By now it's too late for most of their players and I have yet to be convinced by their new crop of players. Connolly meanwhile seems to have become a bit wiser and had his short fuse fixed. Will we see Connolly in a final this year? Versus Kerry perhaps? Would Kerry not take the same opportunity get Connolly all riled up? Clifford too seems to take things personally at times. Obviously he is being targeted, why wouldn't you try anything you can to stop the threat that he is? It is how Clifford deals with the extra attention that is key now. He is still young, very young, and still improving and learning. He is already a much more complete players than the boy who played with the Sem and the minors. I'm sure he knows better than all of us together what he needs to do and he has some truly amazing help around him to get that done. The question is do we want to lose that edge, that killer instinct?
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Sept 3, 2020 8:23:10 GMT
Connolly can be riled up easily. Why not use that? It worked a treat for Mayo. Mayo rattled Dublin's cage much more than any other team did for a long while. In the end it didn't get them any results, but they did their best. I wonder though what would have happened if they had just focused on the football instead. Mayo used to be a team that played stylish and lovely football, but needed a bit of edge. In my opinion though they focused too much on that in the last decade and that is part of why they failed. By now it's too late for most of their players and I have yet to be convinced by their new crop of players. Connolly meanwhile seems to have become a bit wiser and had his short fuse fixed. Will we see Connolly in a final this year? Versus Kerry perhaps? Would Kerry not take the same opportunity get Connolly all riled up? Clifford too seems to take things personally at times. Obviously he is being targeted, why wouldn't you try anything you can to stop the threat that he is? It is how Clifford deals with the extra attention that is key now. He is still young, very young, and still improving and learning. He is already a much more complete players than the boy who played with the Sem and the minors. I'm sure he knows better than all of us together what he needs to do and he has some truly amazing help around him to get that done. The question is do we want to lose that edge, that killer instinct? If the rules were applied - the 'targeting' would stop. I'd like the rules to be applied
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 3, 2020 10:31:37 GMT
Whosinmidfield, that Kenmare game always seems to be queued first. If you login (the menu at the top of the screen) with your login reg and password, it gives you a list of the games you have paid for, and you can select the game you want. Overall, I find it a very good service. I'm looking forward to a rewatch of the county minor final; great game. Overall its a fantastic service. A few little gremlins crept in last night at the start of the second half. The picture frose twice but if you reload the game it seems to work away fine. For about ten minutes of the second half the back round noise sounded like it was from a crowded pub. But it got resolved and away it went. Being domiciled outside of the county it is great for me to see this game. The minor finals used to be on before the senior final one time and i saw a good few minor finals then. I can still recall Jack O'Shea's one man band performance in the 1975 minor county final. I think he got all their scores in the SK victory and he was like a senior player in amounst under 12s
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 3, 2020 15:42:58 GMT
Connolly can be riled up easily. Why not use that? It worked a treat for Mayo. Mayo rattled Dublin's cage much more than any other team did for a long while. In the end it didn't get them any results, but they did their best. I wonder though what would have happened if they had just focused on the football instead. Mayo used to be a team that played stylish and lovely football, but needed a bit of edge. In my opinion though they focused too much on that in the last decade and that is part of why they failed. By now it's too late for most of their players and I have yet to be convinced by their new crop of players. Connolly meanwhile seems to have become a bit wiser and had his short fuse fixed. Will we see Connolly in a final this year? Versus Kerry perhaps? Would Kerry not take the same opportunity get Connolly all riled up? Clifford too seems to take things personally at times. Obviously he is being targeted, why wouldn't you try anything you can to stop the threat that he is? It is how Clifford deals with the extra attention that is key now. He is still young, very young, and still improving and learning. He is already a much more complete players than the boy who played with the Sem and the minors. I'm sure he knows better than all of us together what he needs to do and he has some truly amazing help around him to get that done. The question is do we want to lose that edge, that killer instinct? If the rules were applied - the 'targeting' would stop. I'd like the rules to be applied Connolly and Keegan were both at it.
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Sept 3, 2020 18:35:35 GMT
Connolly can be riled up easily. Why not use that? It worked a treat for Mayo. Mayo rattled Dublin's cage much more than any other team did for a long while. In the end it didn't get them any results, but they did their best. I wonder though what would have happened if they had just focused on the football instead. Mayo used to be a team that played stylish and lovely football, but needed a bit of edge. In my opinion though they focused too much on that in the last decade and that is part of why they failed. By now it's too late for most of their players and I have yet to be convinced by their new crop of players. Connolly meanwhile seems to have become a bit wiser and had his short fuse fixed. Will we see Connolly in a final this year? Versus Kerry perhaps? Would Kerry not take the same opportunity get Connolly all riled up? Clifford too seems to take things personally at times. Obviously he is being targeted, why wouldn't you try anything you can to stop the threat that he is? It is how Clifford deals with the extra attention that is key now. He is still young, very young, and still improving and learning. He is already a much more complete players than the boy who played with the Sem and the minors. I'm sure he knows better than all of us together what he needs to do and he has some truly amazing help around him to get that done. The question is do we want to lose that edge, that killer instinct? If the rules were applied - the 'targeting' would stop. I'd like the rules to be applied That would be a miracle. When, if ever, did the rules get applied all all the time?
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Sept 3, 2020 19:49:04 GMT
If the rules were applied - the 'targeting' would stop. I'd like the rules to be applied That would be a miracle. When, if ever, did the rules get applied all all the time? But we are all aware that this goes on & there are 7 officials on the pitch so it should be managed better. Do we want the best players to consistently express themselves or do we want lads to be able to get away with targeting players off the ball? Because the latter has a serious impact on the former
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1979
Full Member
Posts: 97
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Post by 1979 on Sept 4, 2020 12:17:57 GMT
That would be a miracle. When, if ever, did the rules get applied all all the time? But we are all aware that this goes on & there are 7 officials on the pitch so it should be managed better. Do we want the best players to consistently express themselves or do we want lads to be able to get away with targeting players off the ball? Because the latter has a serious impact on the former 100%. There is so much the powers that be could do if they were serious about stamping the off the ball stuff out (have referees as umpires for C’ship games whose primary responsibility is the marshal off the ball stuff, proper citing structures, rotating player cam, etc. Unfortunately the appetite just isn’t there, which is all the worse for the game.
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 4, 2020 16:28:49 GMT
The GAA has tried a lot of initiatives in recent years.
Black card, sin bin etc.
Holding, obstruction and pulling the jersey are hard to stamp out.
David reacted to that.
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1979
Full Member
Posts: 97
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Post by 1979 on Sept 4, 2020 19:59:40 GMT
No real drive to cut out foul play though. Look at the amount of refereeing decisions that have been turned over on appeal. Black cards really only tend to get issues towards the end of a match when the result isn’t in doubt. And how many black cards have been issued for verbal abuse? We’re not big on rules in this country and the GAA takes that to an extreme
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Post by hatchetman on Sept 6, 2020 23:57:58 GMT
But we are all aware that this goes on & there are 7 officials on the pitch so it should be managed better. Do we want the best players to consistently express themselves or do we want lads to be able to get away with targeting players off the ball? Because the latter has a serious impact on the former 100%. There is so much the powers that be could do if they were serious about stamping the off the ball stuff out (have referees as umpires for C’ship games whose primary responsibility is the marshal off the ball stuff, proper citing structures, rotating player cam, etc. Unfortunately the appetite just isn’t there, which is all the worse for the game. Brilliant idea to have refs as umpires for big games. Traditional umpires are as much much use as a chocolate kettle being used as an ashtray on a motorbike.
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Sept 7, 2020 9:13:51 GMT
The problem is not so much the referees or umpires, it is the rules. We have no clearly defined tackle. I played rugby myself and rugby has books full on the tackle and very precise descriptions of the tackle. Yet even in rugby these can be interpreted in many ways and in rules/laws and descriptions change many times. I would love to see more power to referees in football. More respect for referees too. That would make it a lot easier for players to understand what is allowed and what not. Within the current structure there is not a lot referees can do and players don't really respect the referee as much as they should. The result is backs tackling and stretching the rules, see how far they can go, trying to get a reaction out of the star forward, trying to get the ref to give both a yellow, as they know they rarely will be sent off unless they do something really bad.
Even the black card hasn't changed that and some teams even use the black card that way:Put a player on the star forward and antagonise him over and over. Pull the forward down if you have to hand the worst you can get is a double yellow for back and forward if the tension boils over, or at best a black card and another man comes on to make the forward and do the same. It is nullifying the effect that forward could have and it is playing the ref. And some teams have made an art out of that.
With the sin bin it meant they are a bit more careful, but referees are very reluctant to send someone to the bin unless the offence is very blatant. So most of the time it is a double yellow again and the forward being punished for reacting to the antagonising.
Unless we can give a referee more powers and get more respect for referees people will try to bend and stretch the rules. I was lucky enough to talk one of the Dublin players since the final last year and he said Kerry were only 3% at most behind Dublin at the time so it is important to do anything at all you can to make that count. I'm NOT saying Dublin are playing unfairly, but like all teams they do what they have to do to win. And they do that within the rules that are there. Just like Keegan and Connolly played off each other trying to get a reaction out of each other. Just like Clifford will have every back making him trying to get a reaction out of him. As Clifford's star keeps rising it is harder and harder to play the game without all eyes being on him constantly. He needs to understand that he is a marked man and that players will try anything to get him out of the game. I think Clifford deals with the attention very well and is still improving and learning.
There is no protection from the referees and he is not allowed to protect himself; so we need a change somewhere. Changing the rules doesn't work.
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Post by southward on Sept 7, 2020 15:07:25 GMT
The problem is not so much the referees or umpires, it is the rules. We have no clearly defined tackle. What has the absence of a defined tackle got to do with fellas being manhandled and abused off the ball? I don't think there's any ambiguity there, just a lack of will to police things.
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Fado
Senior Member
Posts: 320
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Post by Fado on Sept 7, 2020 17:32:09 GMT
Maybe start a new thread for this chatting.
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Sept 7, 2020 17:43:55 GMT
Any predictions? I would expect East Kerry to beat St. Brendan's but without David Clifford the odds are levelled a bit. I can't see Mid Kerry beating the Crokes, but secretly hope they do. Will Dr. Crokes still go through to the all Ireland semi final as the last club team or what are the rules this year?
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Post by goonised on Sept 7, 2020 21:08:11 GMT
Any predictions? I would expect East Kerry to beat St. Brendan's but without David Clifford the odds are levelled a bit. I can't see Mid Kerry beating the Crokes, but secretly hope they do. Will Dr. Crokes still go through to the all Ireland semi final as the last club team or what are the rules this year? David will be playing fri night. No Munster campaign this year
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mossie
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,589
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Post by mossie on Sept 7, 2020 22:34:36 GMT
The Brendans must have a great chance against East Kerry, St Kierans showed that they are far from unbeatable.
Mid Kerry v Crokes very much 50\50 - amazing Crokes could be in a county final two years in a row whilst deemed to be in transition!
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 8, 2020 9:12:27 GMT
The Brendans must have a great chance against East Kerry, St Kierans showed that they are far from unbeatable. Mid Kerry v Crokes very much 50\50 - amazing Crokes could be in a county final two years in a row whilst deemed to be in transition! Its a pity that DC is suspended. Another weakness in the system. Why should St Brendans benefit from something that happened in a game they were not playing. A penalty to St Kierans would address the issue on the day and be done with it. A red card and a penalty to the opposition would be the way to go.
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Sept 8, 2020 9:41:31 GMT
Perhaps I have been lax in trying to stay on top of things, but what are the implications if Crokes win this year? Is it only a title for the history books, as in it has no bearing on next year or the All Ireland club championships? Crokes certainly are not the outfit they once were, but they have a lot of experience in that team and some amazing talents like Brosnan and Shaw. Add Burns, Gavin O'Shea, Gavin White and Shane Murphy to the mix and they seem to have a lot of young talent for a team in transition. Templenoe also gave them a real test. Dare I predict another East Kerry v Crokes final?
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Post by finuge86 on Sept 8, 2020 9:51:23 GMT
Sure if that’s the case the red card in every sport in the world is a waste of time.. silly comment you get a red card you suffer by sitting out the rest of the game an miss the next game same in every other sport.. makes no sense give a penalty when incident happened In the middle of the field the whole team suffers then cause one guy gets sent off come on.. you give the red down to 14 that’s the penalty you need your team mates to dog you out then.. and if not to be suspended to give the brendans the advantage as you put it madness sure if that’s the case with games over boys be lashing out all over the place getting red cards no suspensions 😂😂 quote author=" Mickmack" source="/post/241780/thread" timestamp="1599556347"] The Brendans must have a great chance against East Kerry, St Kierans showed that they are far from unbeatable. Mid Kerry v Crokes very much 50\50 - amazing Crokes could be in a county final two years in a row whilst deemed to be in transition! Its a pity that DC is suspended. Another weakness in the system. Why should St Brendans benefit from something that happened in a game they were not playing. A penalty to St Kierans would address the issue on the day and be done with it. A red card and a penalty to the opposition would be the way to go. [/quote]
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