MeathExile
Full Member
I wonder, is there a goal in this game??
Posts: 199
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Post by MeathExile on Mar 8, 2016 22:13:28 GMT
I see Dermot is getting a good reaction again, and Tyrone were not even involved this time...!
To be honest, if this was Tyrone/Derry or Armagh/Tyrone it would have been all over the news - typical Nordie stuff etc. Reminds me of the infamous battle of Omagh a few years ago - I think I will be the first to brand this one The battle of Tralee!!
I have never seen an act like McGee on Fitz- scary stuff, and would not encourage any parent watching to let their child play GAA- a new low achieved. Thank God it was caught on tv - lets see what the CCC etc make of it. If it was Championship time, I'd say he would get 6 months.
Even though it was a highly negative match, it was a tremendous game for Kerry to win. A lot of backbone and strength of character shown in the second half in particular. Donaghy is our most critical and influential player for the big games - still can't understand why he was in the stand for most of the game last September - major mistake.
Still say Mark Griffin is a good option for 6, with Peter on the wing. We need to see more of Brendan O S.
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Post by veteran on Mar 8, 2016 22:28:36 GMT
Standard 1 match for a straight red. I agree that an appeal should not be lodged but how would the incident have concluded if Alan had not retaliated? I have always believed that if you are not getting fair play from officials you should ensure fair play yourself no matter the price. It is a matter of self respect. Tom Long was one of the greatest Kerry players I have seen. Generally played at CHF or FF. In those positions in those days you could be the subject of a lot of physical abuse. Tom was a level headed man with a live and let live attitude on the filed but if you wanted to,intimidate him he responded fearlessly and mercilessly. . That response was usually on the blind side of the referee and of course cameras were a rare commodity. That meant that retribution could be exacted with impunity on most days. He was master at it . He was my type of player.
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Post by Mickmack on Mar 8, 2016 22:43:02 GMT
I have to say that i dont agree with you Veteran...
i would appeal Fitzgeralds red card.
Even a member of the Amish community would have reacted like Alan did.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Mar 8, 2016 22:43:49 GMT
I don't like to see us appealing end of. Even if we did I don't know is there a defence of self-defence...I suspect according to the rules it is a straight red.
Common sense suggests CCC should have overturned his red but it depends on what the rules say.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Mar 8, 2016 22:46:48 GMT
Maybe the root of it was Rory trying to prove he could do what Jim couldn't, and it would certainly have improved his standing? His animated decorum suggests it and such initiatives always backfire as you are putting barriers in front of you where none existed. Having seen Donegal v Mayo in the flesh a short week ago I can't believe we put 5 between us, next Sunday is the final piece in that jigsaw where home advantage is trending, well with the exception of Dublin in Castlebar. I think Donegal played great football in 2012. But it was based on an ability to be very tight defensively and to dictate/control games almost from start to finish. They don't seem to be able to do the defensive part of that anymore (not do it good enough to be worth it). And that's with the tactics still being relatively defensive. Therefore my point is they need something different. Unless of course they go on to reach the league final now playing this way and to perform generally very well. But I think there's enough evidence from the last 3 years, even allowing for players naturally ageing/ declining, retired or injured, to suggest that they would be better served with something different, that they could maximise their resources better. A fast running game with more players committed forward, in other words more risk. But less physically wearing. I think this was traditionally their style and the difference from the past is they now (still) have the players and the basis/confidence upon which to do it really well. Every team these days has to go defensive at times (after conceding some damaging scores, holding a lead near the end, player(s) lost to cards, injury during a game, what way the opposition are playing etc). And of course they will be still very well equipped to do that as well. One of the reasons I think they are and will continue to struggle to do a bit better (because they are doing very well still, I just think they could be doing better) is that their game is based still more on power and strength than on speed. This is more attritional and energy-sapping, and barring Donegal in 2012 (nearly in 2011 and 2014) no team can keep that up. Apart from anything else Donegal have looked absolutely knackered in 2013 and 2015, and as the years go by they are going to be generally more knackered as a squad, IMO. Decline will be inevitable, before it need to be. To put it in perspective, Michael Murphy, now a big, power-heavy type of player who has to win ball and tackle alot all over the field, will IMO physically decline before his time. The fact that they haven't been able to get close to winning the top league competition in the past few years, and have lost two Ulster finals they should have been winning (clearly better team/squad player for player than Monaghan), and ran out of steam/weren't able to attack more in the 2014 final are for me more arguments against them continuing with this adapted but essentially power/strength defensive/counter-attack style of football. You are saying a lot there and while I agree with you overall, we need to acknowledge that there is a lot more soccer in Donegal than people realise, some put it at 60%+ soccer. I suppose it would also be hit hard by emigration. The fellas I'd be chatting to don't appear to attach much significance to Sunday. While Jim McGuinness did win approval when he pointed out that playing nice football doesn't win games, I wonder if they would have come of better on Sunday with a less confrontational approach. Ah maybe wise after the event but one thing for sure, refs will be very generous with cards from now on and players will be increasingly forensic aware, more ref briefings on what does and doesn't go, etc. All a distraction from the core skills really you'd say.
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1979
Full Member
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Post by 1979 on Mar 8, 2016 22:51:55 GMT
Every year for the past few years, there has been a rotten bubble under the wallpaper in this game that when pressed down, appears somewhere else. The black card was introduced, and the GAA heads congratulated themselves on a job well done, irrespective of how pathetically it has worked. The answer is exclusively in copying a template that works. We have to look at soccer, rugby, american football or even the AFL to find out what works and what does not. I am afraid that the GAA wont do this, because it will show them up a bit for introducing a rule that did not work and it would involve copying rules from a code that they wont want to be seen to copy. Dermot is correct, there has to be blame, responsibility or whatever else you want to call it rested on all shoulders even if it means admitting that there is something wrong close to home. Remember the league encounters last year involving Mayo, dublin and Cork. There were serious breeches of discipline in all games. Kerry have to play a really big game against mayo next weekend, and the following fixture includes a match with cork. Would it be a coincidence if there were trouble at either match, or would it be a case of either team 'defending themselves' against the aggressor. This is going to repeat add infinitum, unless there is black and white rules, and black and white enforcement of the rules. Sin bin. Name and shame disqualifying from all stars/motm. Heavy fines. Suspension with double penalty on unsuccessful appeal. Straight red for clothes line tackle. Video evidence in play. 10 second window on taking a free from hands, otherwise you have to take it from the ground. 30 second window for free to be taken from the ground. (If the keeper comes up to take it, he would have to be a good sprinter). Winning at all costs has totally warped into something beyond competition.
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fitz
Fanatical Member
Red sky at night get off my land
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Post by fitz on Mar 8, 2016 22:56:25 GMT
Ah lads, there's no grounds for appeal, he struck McGee in the face three times. No matter what happens there's no joker in the deck, to allow free pucks to the gob.
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Post by conallach on Mar 8, 2016 23:00:56 GMT
While I can sympathise with Fitzgerald, there's not really anything that the officials can do to overturn that.
First off, congratulations on the win and, more importantly, congratulations on the very reasonable thread. The posts in here are a step above what you'd find in other corners of the internet, and most posters seem to have taken a very balanced view of events.
I've no intention of going over all the events one by one, there's no need really, they've all been covered quite well here. I think Kerry have laid down their marker now, and they've more than fought the ghosts of Tyrone's past. I'm not sure how much emphasis Fitzmaurice will place on the league, but they're in a strong enough position now - the semi finals are achievable and mighn't be the worst thing to aim for.
As for our lads, well, they're certainly their manager's team now, beag nó mór. I believe fully that tidiness in the tackle was the key to the defence over the past few years (along with disciple in keeping their shape) and that the indiscipline that's creeping in to the squad is directly resulting in them giving more chances away. Just look at the goal, or the amount of frees moved up.
Along with that, whinging to the referee and trying either to provoke an opponent or settle scores just take your eyes off the ball. There's a thin line between playing with a fire in your belly, and that anger driving your run through a defence, and playing stupidly. In my opinion, it's no coincidence that the standout players on the pitch were a lot less visible in any pulling and pushing. I don't even mean the schmozzles, unfortunately these things happen, more the nonsense - the pushing, pulling, complaining - that, to my mind, Kavanagh and McFadden get distracted by.
(and here, never mind Devenney. He's not someone who's thoughts you'd go out of your way to look for. I hope Newstalk have Horan signed up again for the business end of the season)
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Post by Mickmack on Mar 8, 2016 23:07:00 GMT
While I can sympathise with Fitzgerald, there's not really anything that the officials can do to overturn that. First off, congratulations on the win and, more importantly, congratulations on the very reasonable thread. The posts in here are a step above what you'd find in other corners of the internet, and most posters seem to have taken a very balanced view of events. I've no intention of going over all the events one by one, there's no need really, they've all been covered quite well here. I think Kerry have laid down their marker now, and they've more than fought the ghosts of Tyrone's past. I'm not sure how much emphasis Fitzmaurice will place on the league, but they're in a strong enough position now - the semi finals are achievable and mighn't be the worst thing to aim for. As for our lads, well, they're certainly their manager's team now, beag nó mór. I believe fully that tidiness in the tackle was the key to the defence over the past few years (along with disciple in keeping their shape) and that the indiscipline that's creeping in to the squad is directly resulting in them giving more chances away. Just look at the goal, or the amount of frees moved up. Along with that, whinging to the referee and trying either to provoke an opponent or settle scores just take your eyes off the ball. There's a thin line between playing with a fire in your belly, and that anger driving your run through a defence, and playing stupidly. In my opinion, it's no coincidence that the standout players on the pitch were a lot less visible in any pulling and pushing. I don't even mean the schmozzles, unfortunately these things happen, more the nonsense - the pushing, pulling, complaining - that, to my mind, Kavanagh and McFadden get distracted by. (and here, never mind Devenney. He's not someone who's thoughts you'd go out of your way to look for. I hope Newstalk have Horan signed up again for the business end of the season) Did you make it down for the game conallach (for the spring holiday you were talking about)
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1979
Full Member
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Post by 1979 on Mar 8, 2016 23:16:37 GMT
You make some interesting suggestions there Donegalman.
There is no doubt that the game has a serious issue with discipline that it has failed to tackle over the last number of years. My abiding memory of reading Tomas O' Se's articles during last year was that every other one seemed to refer to some disciplinary controversy or other.
To me, it comes down to a cynicism and a win at all costs attitude dominating how teams now prepare, combined with a lack of appetite from HQ to tackle the problem head on. If that appetite was there then I think the problem could be eradicated in a matter of weeks without any significant changes to the existing rules. A few suggested courses of action that could be taken;
1. All umpires must be referees for c'ship games. Their primary responsibility is to monitor off the ball activity, and they should be encouraged to communicate with the match referee and recommend an appropriate sanction when incidents arise.
2. Apply the black card sanction to the letter of the law. When it first came in there was a noticeable reduction in the checking of players runs, a problem that had gotten out of control. It seems to be creeping back in however. Referees should be encouraged to stamp it out, and that may require HQ to impose sanctions on managers who complain about the laws being applied. In fact, just apply all of the current rules all the time!
3. Use video evidence more often to sanction foul play, particularly off the ball stuff. I don't necessarily with the suggestion that it be used during the game (we'd never get home), but I do think it should be used more frequently after games. Could something like "covert player cam" be used as a potential deterrent? If players were made aware of the fact that a camera could be focussed on them for the full 70 minutes then they may be less inclined to do some off the ball stuff that blights the game at the moment.
I think something material has to be done soon before another season desends into another controversy after another.
On the match itself, of course there was fault on both sides. But if appropriate punishment isn't handed out then players will continue to commit the crimes.
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Post by conallach on Mar 8, 2016 23:16:49 GMT
I think Donegal played great football in 2012. But it was based on an ability to be very tight defensively and to dictate/control games almost from start to finish. They don't seem to be able to do the defensive part of that anymore (not do it good enough to be worth it). And that's with the tactics still being relatively defensive. Therefore my point is they need something different. Unless of course they go on to reach the league final now playing this way and to perform generally very well. But I think there's enough evidence from the last 3 years, even allowing for players naturally ageing/ declining, retired or injured, to suggest that they would be better served with something different, that they could maximise their resources better. A fast running game with more players committed forward, in other words more risk. But less physically wearing. I think this was traditionally their style and the difference from the past is they now (still) have the players and the basis/confidence upon which to do it really well. Every team these days has to go defensive at times (after conceding some damaging scores, holding a lead near the end, player(s) lost to cards, injury during a game, what way the opposition are playing etc). And of course they will be still very well equipped to do that as well. One of the reasons I think they are and will continue to struggle to do a bit better (because they are doing very well still, I just think they could be doing better) is that their game is based still more on power and strength than on speed. This is more attritional and energy-sapping, and barring Donegal in 2012 (nearly in 2011 and 2014) no team can keep that up. Apart from anything else Donegal have looked absolutely knackered in 2013 and 2015, and as the years go by they are going to be generally more knackered as a squad, IMO. Decline will be inevitable, before it need to be. To put it in perspective, Michael Murphy, now a big, power-heavy type of player who has to win ball and tackle alot all over the field, will IMO physically decline before his time. The fact that they haven't been able to get close to winning the top league competition in the past few years, and have lost two Ulster finals they should have been winning (clearly better team/squad player for player than Monaghan), and ran out of steam/weren't able to attack more in the 2014 final are for me more arguments against them continuing with this adapted but essentially power/strength defensive/counter-attack style of football. You are saying a lot there and while I agree with you overall, we need to acknowledge that there is a lot more soccer in Donegal than people realise, some put it at 60%+ soccer. I suppose it would also be hit hard by emigration. The fellas I'd be chatting to don't appear to attach much significance to Sunday. While Jim McGuinness did win approval when he pointed out that playing nice football doesn't win games, I wonder if they would have come of better on Sunday with a less confrontational approach. Ah maybe wise after the event but one thing for sure, refs will be very generous with cards from now on and players will be increasingly forensic aware, more ref briefings on what does and doesn't go, etc. All a distraction from the core skills really you'd say. In fairness, almost everyone plays both soccer and football growing up, and I don't think that it does them any harm. Rashers is right about the running style being the predominant style in the county. I started playing in the wake of the 92 win and, growing up, this was the approach taken by almost every club team, from u14s to senior. And, accordingly, I think the style suits the senior side - it's important to mix it up, and it's important to throw in a bit of steel down the spine, but Donegal are at their most threatening when Ryan or Eoin McHugh, Frank McGlynn and the likes are running at sides in numbers. There's a reason that Karl Lacey was the footballer of the year in 2012, the team was in many ways built around him. The flipside of this is that that approach requires on thing above all else - space. When Donegal fail to draw the other team out, they struggle. This is why games against the likes of Fermanagh this summer will be tough, and I wouldn't be overly surprised to see the side crash out of Ulster and then tear it up through the backdoor. Teams, including Kerry in 2012 (Fitzmaurice is a very good manager) and latterly Mayo, have also cottoned on to blocking off the runs of the most dangerous runners from deep, but you'd expect an intercounty management team to be able to find a solution to this problem. All of this just tells you why I get so frustrated when I see Rory's Donegal team slowing the game down by choice - it might suit his plan but it certainly doesn't suit the abilities of his players. Also, I realised in my last post that I forgot to throw in my 2c on the Kerry boyos! I thought Donnachadh Walsh was well worth his MoTM, and that Murphy worked hard. I'm not convinced fully by Griffin - there's a player there but I'd worry about leaving him alone with a dangerous player. He ran hard though. I though Fionn Fitzgerald was excellent in his use of the ball at key stages, and that Crowley looks tougher and more direct this year. On the down side, I think that while Cooper has still got a lot to offer, he might need to find a new role, as I don't know if he can contain a strong runner on a summer's day. On a final note, it's gas that you have two nice county grounds and your neighbours are stuggling. I hope to get to Killarney in the summer, looks like a fine place for football, but you can be quite happy with Tralee too.
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Post by conallach on Mar 8, 2016 23:18:15 GMT
While I can sympathise with Fitzgerald, there's not really anything that the officials can do to overturn that. First off, congratulations on the win and, more importantly, congratulations on the very reasonable thread. The posts in here are a step above what you'd find in other corners of the internet, and most posters seem to have taken a very balanced view of events. I've no intention of going over all the events one by one, there's no need really, they've all been covered quite well here. I think Kerry have laid down their marker now, and they've more than fought the ghosts of Tyrone's past. I'm not sure how much emphasis Fitzmaurice will place on the league, but they're in a strong enough position now - the semi finals are achievable and mighn't be the worst thing to aim for. As for our lads, well, they're certainly their manager's team now, beag nó mór. I believe fully that tidiness in the tackle was the key to the defence over the past few years (along with disciple in keeping their shape) and that the indiscipline that's creeping in to the squad is directly resulting in them giving more chances away. Just look at the goal, or the amount of frees moved up. Along with that, whinging to the referee and trying either to provoke an opponent or settle scores just take your eyes off the ball. There's a thin line between playing with a fire in your belly, and that anger driving your run through a defence, and playing stupidly. In my opinion, it's no coincidence that the standout players on the pitch were a lot less visible in any pulling and pushing. I don't even mean the schmozzles, unfortunately these things happen, more the nonsense - the pushing, pulling, complaining - that, to my mind, Kavanagh and McFadden get distracted by. (and here, never mind Devenney. He's not someone who's thoughts you'd go out of your way to look for. I hope Newstalk have Horan signed up again for the business end of the season) Did you make it down for the game conallach (for the spring holiday you were talking about) Only a day trip Mickmack! I'm exiled on the other side of Munster for the minute anyway so I'll hopefully catch a championship game later in the year.
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Post by gamechanger10 on Mar 9, 2016 0:01:01 GMT
God God, if Galvin did this he would get ten years hard labour,, this was an attempt to break or dislocate four fingers of an opposing players hand and it was clear that the puck Alan threw caught him badly and broke his nose. On impact McGee instantly ceased in his grievous effort and had the gall to start whinging to officials. I thought it was one of the worst incidents of thuggery I have ever witnessed on a field of play. He deserves a significant ban for this attempt to visit grievous bodily harm on another player in such an unambiguous manner, just shocking.
Outside of (sore nose snots) McGee I thought the game was played on an edge from the get go that both disappointed and compelled with the electric intensity and raw edginess of two competitors that were not willing to yield an inch on either football terms or physicality. If donegal were as disciplined as they have been in the past they would have won that game but Gallagher is no appropriate yard stick for control, he was OTT yesterday and I'm sure that he has regrets today both as a manager and indeed as someone who should have behaved with a bit of decorum that is the basic requirement for a manager at this level.
It's strange but the top teams are copping onto the Clingons, play good football and you will lose with honour. Donegal and Tyrone dropped this crap of win at all cost on to the GAA table 7 and 13 years ago respectively. I firmly believe that more pragmatic changes should have been made to preserve the skills that are coached and enhanced with dedication and natural talent. The reality is that a system can be aped and copied by talented players but talented skills can't be copied as they are natural and wont be coached with such efficiency when implementing the system that is designed to stop players playing the game as we know it. That is a bold thing to do and in donegal mcguinness is a god in donegal and fair play to him he won an All Ireland with his system. In my opinion nobody tackled the issues that have the potential to damage the future of our game. Any kid can join their local rugby club if they want to play a game like this but the GAA have a different option available for kids and we are letting it become mongrel of what it was intended to be. Packed defences and constant hand passing are a blight on the game in my opinion and this is where the devil,is in the detail. There have been plenty of reasonable suggestions made to add fluency and rewards the basic skills of the game, it's time for the top table to stand up.
Before the righteous decend on me, don't get me wrong as I believe Tyrone came to town with plenty of attitude and skill and woke us up as to how players will have to perform at the top levels of the game. They had some fantastic players and we needed a kick in the arse and we started to adapt. Then in 2011 came the manifestation, first sight of this frightening "Unidentified Football Offensive" or UFO. Donegal were and still are glistening with talented players no doubt but the dub V Donegal game that year was a shocking affront to what any underage coach tries to teach kids on a Saturday morning. Ill give you it was probably compelling if not bewildering for the supporters of the competing teams but for everyone else it was like watching hunters gleefully chase a bleeding tradition of a great sport into a Cul de sac called "Dictators Reward"
This great game of ours is about participation from an early age, individuality, flamboyance, skill and a reward for family, Club and if they are lucky County. i believe it will be harshly judged in the years to come if they don't take appropriate action to ensure that our kids are not lining out in two rows of seven in front of their keeper with bellowing coaches ordering instruction as to how to hold the line. Sorry folks, rant over
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Post by Control5 on Mar 9, 2016 8:05:23 GMT
Dermot
If you come on again here today to try to cause mayhem, you will be banned for a month.
Your choice.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Mar 9, 2016 9:23:03 GMT
You are saying a lot there and while I agree with you overall, we need to acknowledge that there is a lot more soccer in Donegal than people realise, some put it at 60%+ soccer. I suppose it would also be hit hard by emigration. The fellas I'd be chatting to don't appear to attach much significance to Sunday. While Jim McGuinness did win approval when he pointed out that playing nice football doesn't win games, I wonder if they would have come of better on Sunday with a less confrontational approach. Ah maybe wise after the event but one thing for sure, refs will be very generous with cards from now on and players will be increasingly forensic aware, more ref briefings on what does and doesn't go, etc. All a distraction from the core skills really you'd say. In fairness, almost everyone plays both soccer and football growing up, and I don't think that it does them any harm. Rashers is right about the running style being the predominant style in the county. I started playing in the wake of the 92 win and, growing up, this was the approach taken by almost every club team, from u14s to senior. And, accordingly, I think the style suits the senior side - it's important to mix it up, and it's important to throw in a bit of steel down the spine, but Donegal are at their most threatening when Ryan or Eoin McHugh, Frank McGlynn and the likes are running at sides in numbers. There's a reason that Karl Lacey was the footballer of the year in 2012, the team was in many ways built around him. The flipside of this is that that approach requires on thing above all else - space. When Donegal fail to draw the other team out, they struggle. This is why games against the likes of Fermanagh this summer will be tough, and I wouldn't be overly surprised to see the side crash out of Ulster and then tear it up through the backdoor. Teams, including Kerry in 2012 (Fitzmaurice is a very good manager) and latterly Mayo, have also cottoned on to blocking off the runs of the most dangerous runners from deep, but you'd expect an intercounty management team to be able to find a solution to this problem. All of this just tells you why I get so frustrated when I see Rory's Donegal team slowing the game down by choice - it might suit his plan but it certainly doesn't suit the abilities of his players. Also, I realised in my last post that I forgot to throw in my 2c on the Kerry boyos! I thought Donnachadh Walsh was well worth his MoTM, and that Murphy worked hard. I'm not convinced fully by Griffin - there's a player there but I'd worry about leaving him alone with a dangerous player. He ran hard though. I though Fionn Fitzgerald was excellent in his use of the ball at key stages, and that Crowley looks tougher and more direct this year. On the down side, I think that while Cooper has still got a lot to offer, he might need to find a new role, as I don't know if he can contain a strong runner on a summer's day. On a final note, it's gas that you have two nice county grounds and your neighbours are stuggling. I hope to get to Killarney in the summer, looks like a fine place for football, but you can be quite happy with Tralee too. Hi conallach, I know everyone plays both as they grow up but few outside the county would be aware of the prominence of soccer in Donegal, i.e. seniors who don't play Gaelic at all. I have never heard anyone say soccer was less than 50% and most would say it is 60%-70%, what do you think the breakdown is? On that same point, many clubs were late being formed, e.g. Fanad in the 50s/60's and which is recent enough. I also believe is it Kilcar and/or Killybegs were late enough. Now maybe like Kerry there was Gaelic in those places but the team name was different? I know of a Fanad man who on returning from boarding school in or around 1950 told his friends that 'they played football in Galway but that you could handle the ball'. Of course there was no TVs yet either. By the way how many noticed Darren's 'foot pitching' of the ball into Donnacha's path for that fisted point early on in Sunday's game?, sublime I thought!
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Post by onlykerry on Mar 9, 2016 9:45:21 GMT
Is their a case for even bigger gum shields for GAA players - something needs to be done to get the mouthing out of the game and the focus back on playing football.
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Post by himself on Mar 9, 2016 9:48:25 GMT
I agree with the likes of Fitzwop and Conallach that Alan Fitzgerald threw deliberate punches - it was clearly retaliation rather than self-defence. That's not excusing McGee's appalling behaviour (of course he deserved a red card and deserves his ban, at the same time it's not like he used a chainsaw, I condemn it but I think the reaction is over the top, I have certainly seen worse), but the fact is that Alan struck and received a deserved one match ban. That's fair and no big deal in the overall scheme of things. It's early March, I suspect that this whole thing is a godsend to the media rather than anything else. I'm hearing locally that a lot of people feel that Shane Enright did not deserve a black card, that he was protecting himself from a falling Michael Murphy. I like Shane, who was very much an unsung hero until he won his deserved All Star last year, but on the day I was certain it was a black card and looking at it on tv afterwards, I have absolutely no doubts. In fact, in a game that had big decisions coming fast and constant, I actually thought the referee did well overall in the circumstances. One thing I do feel is that at least one Kerry player and one member of Donegal management should have been cautioned early on dissent with an official is a black card offence, and if both kept it up, they should have walked. I know that a good referee gives leeway in accounting for understandable human nature, but I feel that GAA referees give too much latitude to mouthing. To be honest, I couldn't care less about the McGrath Cup, I wouldn't get out of bed for it for less than ten grand (even if I was alone in bed), and I don't get too excited about the National League either. We look like staying up in Division One and that's all I want. It's March. This 'scandal' will be long forgotten about before long.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Mar 9, 2016 10:03:08 GMT
I am delighted that our old friend rashers has got his eyesight back fully. I was worried about him there round the third week of September 2015 but it 20;20 again now it seems. Ah heeeere, leeeave irrrrout! Nothing really vague or inconclusive about that incident on sunday Mick. Or was there? You tell me. I felt that Donegal bullied poor little Mayo the last day, Kerry saw this from across the schoolyard & took the initiative (rightly so) on sunday. I've no doubt Donegal would have wanted to do so, and tried to 'wrestle' it back. But Kerry in Tralee/Killarney are in fortress mode and won't be bullied. That and the fact that the muinteoir in charge of the area of yard where the Kerry boys play seemed a bit afraid to make a fuss. They very much took the initiative against ourselves in the league game last year (though once again the teacher didn't say much), and that helped set them up for a summer in which they dealt with everything Tyrone could throw at them (though they were fortunate Tyrone were on a serious warning from the Priomhoide after the Qtr final sports day). Kerry held their own in any physicality against us in the final. So markers are being laid down. I've a feeling it could be a Kerry-Dublin league final, if Donegal can't make it (First Holy Communions and the likes). Now that would be some serious day of markers, sharp pencils, and rulers across the legs. WIll yis try get it brought to Fitzgerald? The stories around that would be only bleedin legion!
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Jo90
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Posts: 2,723
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Post by Jo90 on Mar 9, 2016 10:12:12 GMT
McGee's ban apparently is only proposed, not actually gone through with yet.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Mar 9, 2016 10:13:03 GMT
Donegal came to the home of football with the idea that they could bully Kerry like they had previous opposition, it was never likely to happen. Kerry have learned their fill from Armagh, Tyrone, and more recently Donegal over the last 15 years. I just don't think Gallagher is getting the best out of them, wonder what Donegalman thinks? More emphasis on football needed perhaps...........
I am not going to rise for a cheap hook like that Rashers. You will have to use a better fly. Wasn't meant as a wind-up Donegalman, I think I just overreacted a bit to a first viewing of the incidents. I had been thinking about the Donegal-Mayo game and it was clear to me that Donegal bullied Mayo in the physical stakes that day (nothing wrong with that, nothing new for any team in gaelic games). My point was that I felt they believed they needed to do it against Kerry but it was always going to be much harder, especially on the road there. In hindsight the only thing I missed was that Kerry took the initiative. Otherwise it's still as I thought. I suppose the question to be asked if, leaving aside the physicality issues, who is the better team? I think Donegal can nearly match Kerry for forwards and hold their own around the middle. I think they might have a slight advantage in the backs. My points about the way they are playing, leaving aside the bit of overreaction, still stand. I think they have the players to play a game based more on pace and running and fast movement of the ball, whilst holding their own defensively. I think their defense is no longer suited enough to lying as deep as they often still seem to do (they don't have the legs to keep doing that plus the counterattacking, and they are getting frustrated with other top sides able to match those tactics. And I think Murphy is not being best used.
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Post by jackiel on Mar 9, 2016 10:17:32 GMT
My thoughts on the whole situation for what its worth, 1. Don't understand why the fine is 50% higher than the recent Armagh/Fermanagh one 2. We are very lucky that Kieran and Aidan didn't receive any sanction, leaving the stadium I felt that both were blessed to stay on the pitch. 3. Cards have been marked, we need to move on and operate in a more disciplined way throughout the rest of the season. Cut out back chatting referees. We may not be so lucky again. 4. When we were actually concentrating on playing football there were a lot of positives, we're not going away anywhere. Roll on summer football. Ciarraí abú
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Mar 9, 2016 10:31:37 GMT
So hefty fines for both counties: probably justified A one match ban for McGee: much too lenient but probably the maximum that can be given for this infringement. Donegal should not appeal and the rest of us should park the matter of just punishment and move on. Should Kerry appeal Alan's red card? There are certainly grounds to do so given McGee's ban but the card was correct on the grounds of striking an opponent regardless of cause. I know there are some high profile reversals in similar situations but perhaps an appeal would be too much of a distraction? Connolly's appeal was rejected but then the original adjudication of red card was overturned on a referee report technicality, AFAIR. So my understanding of it is, the red card will stand in this case. I think the problem is, it's impossible to prove exactly what Neil McGee did, just as it was inconclusive exactly what Lee Keegan did in that incident last year.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Mar 9, 2016 10:47:45 GMT
While I can sympathise with Fitzgerald, there's not really anything that the officials can do to overturn that. First off, congratulations on the win and, more importantly, congratulations on the very reasonable thread. The posts in here are a step above what you'd find in other corners of the internet, and most posters seem to have taken a very balanced view of events. I've no intention of going over all the events one by one, there's no need really, they've all been covered quite well here. I think Kerry have laid down their marker now, and they've more than fought the ghosts of Tyrone's past. I'm not sure how much emphasis Fitzmaurice will place on the league, but they're in a strong enough position now - the semi finals are achievable and mighn't be the worst thing to aim for. As for our lads, well, they're certainly their manager's team now, beag nó mór. I believe fully that tidiness in the tackle was the key to the defence over the past few years (along with disciple in keeping their shape) and that the indiscipline that's creeping in to the squad is directly resulting in them giving more chances away. Just look at the goal, or the amount of frees moved up. Along with that, whinging to the referee and trying either to provoke an opponent or settle scores just take your eyes off the ball. There's a thin line between playing with a fire in your belly, and that anger driving your run through a defence, and playing stupidly. In my opinion, it's no coincidence that the standout players on the pitch were a lot less visible in any pulling and pushing. I don't even mean the schmozzles, unfortunately these things happen, more the nonsense - the pushing, pulling, complaining - that, to my mind, Kavanagh and McFadden get distracted by. (and here, never mind Devenney. He's not someone who's thoughts you'd go out of your way to look for. I hope Newstalk have Horan signed up again for the business end of the season) Super post. Amongst my many thoughts about Donegal currently (and I've been fascinated by them the last few years, I've openly admitted) are that they are fighting so hard (against themselves more than anything) to get back to two years ago, when they so nearly reached the summit again. And that struggle is at the heart of the fire we've seen so far this year. And a large part of it are the changes, trying to adapt how they play, to recover from the physical efforts of (especially) 2010-2014, the change in management of course, the personality of the head coach, and the traditions of their football (formerly very footballing football, though still in the context of dealing with the ruggedness of the Ulster championship). I think they are somewhere between the old days and the revolution, but tied a bit too much to the JMG philosophy. Because it achieved so much. And the Rory Gallagher factor is a whole world unto itself. He is playing a pantomime villain of sorts. Maybe it is helping the players rage against any notion of a decline from where they were............. Rory could be just playing the Bad Penny but he's also saying, "we're not A Million Miles Away".
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Mar 9, 2016 11:10:12 GMT
You are saying a lot there and while I agree with you overall, we need to acknowledge that there is a lot more soccer in Donegal than people realise, some put it at 60%+ soccer. I suppose it would also be hit hard by emigration. The fellas I'd be chatting to don't appear to attach much significance to Sunday. While Jim McGuinness did win approval when he pointed out that playing nice football doesn't win games, I wonder if they would have come of better on Sunday with a less confrontational approach. Ah maybe wise after the event but one thing for sure, refs will be very generous with cards from now on and players will be increasingly forensic aware, more ref briefings on what does and doesn't go, etc. All a distraction from the core skills really you'd say. In fairness, almost everyone plays both soccer and football growing up, and I don't think that it does them any harm. Rashers is right about the running style being the predominant style in the county. I started playing in the wake of the 92 win and, growing up, this was the approach taken by almost every club team, from u14s to senior. And, accordingly, I think the style suits the senior side - it's important to mix it up, and it's important to throw in a bit of steel down the spine, but Donegal are at their most threatening when Ryan or Eoin McHugh, Frank McGlynn and the likes are running at sides in numbers. There's a reason that Karl Lacey was the footballer of the year in 2012, the team was in many ways built around him. The flipside of this is that that approach requires on thing above all else - space. When Donegal fail to draw the other team out, they struggle. This is why games against the likes of Fermanagh this summer will be tough, and I wouldn't be overly surprised to see the side crash out of Ulster and then tear it up through the backdoor. Teams, including Kerry in 2012 (Fitzmaurice is a very good manager) and latterly Mayo, have also cottoned on to blocking off the runs of the most dangerous runners from deep, but you'd expect an intercounty management team to be able to find a solution to this problem. All of this just tells you why I get so frustrated when I see Rory's Donegal team slowing the game down by choice - it might suit his plan but it certainly doesn't suit the abilities of his players. Also, I realised in my last post that I forgot to throw in my 2c on the Kerry boyos! I thought Donnachadh Walsh was well worth his MoTM, and that Murphy worked hard. I'm not convinced fully by Griffin - there's a player there but I'd worry about leaving him alone with a dangerous player. He ran hard though. I though Fionn Fitzgerald was excellent in his use of the ball at key stages, and that Crowley looks tougher and more direct this year. On the down side, I think that while Cooper has still got a lot to offer, he might need to find a new role, as I don't know if he can contain a strong runner on a summer's day. On a final note, it's gas that you have two nice county grounds and your neighbours are stuggling. I hope to get to Killarney in the summer, looks like a fine place for football, but you can be quite happy with Tralee too. I've been saying the past two years, Donegal would have got more out of the qualifiers. But I understood they wanted to win as many Ulster Championships as possible while the going was good. But I think it backfired in some ways, they lost two of the last 3 through wear and tear as much as anything, hard games from early May on. And it left them with nothing to give in high summer, and less to give in late summer. That said, they achieved alot in 2014 but I think that worked out to some extent due to opposition failings up until the final. I certainly think if they believe another All-I is really on for them, they need to keep their early summer efforts in cruise-control. And a very good league is the way to go too, get some really competitive competition early enough in the year to recover from. Would winning a National League Final now really be so much less prestigious than another Ulster title?
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Post by donegalman on Mar 9, 2016 11:41:54 GMT
I have mixed feelings about the cccc and their findings. In a way, I think most people want to move on from it and kind of 'park' the issue. But this is just like throwing money at a zombie bank. We cant run and hide for another season. The GAA should have an extra ordinary meeting in the next 2 weeks and implement a clear set of rules and procedures. Scrap the black card and introduce the sin bin would be one big one. The clothes line tackle is a blight on the safety of our players. Yes it is a mans game, but you are not much of a man after running into one of those. It is probably one of the few remaining exciting elements of our game, when a player has the courage to go and run at the opposition. And there is no reward or protection for a player who does this. Compare this to getting a black card for tugging a players jersey or hand tripping a player. It is an insane irregularity.
I think that if a sin bin were introduced and enforced early in games ruthlessly, then players would smarten up very quickly when it comes to trying to get away with things. 14 v 15 in this game is a huge disadvantage.
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Post by ciarrailar on Mar 9, 2016 13:25:20 GMT
I have mixed feelings about the cccc and their findings. In a way, I think most people want to move on from it and kind of 'park' the issue. But this is just like throwing money at a zombie bank. We cant run and hide for another season. The GAA should have an extra ordinary meeting in the next 2 weeks and implement a clear set of rules and procedures. Scrap the black card and introduce the sin bin would be one big one. The clothes line tackle is a blight on the safety of our players. Yes it is a mans game, but you are not much of a man after running into one of those. It is probably one of the few remaining exciting elements of our game, when a player has the courage to go and run at the opposition. And there is no reward or protection for a player who does this. Compare this to getting a black card for tugging a players jersey or hand tripping a player. It is an insane irregularity. I think that if a sin bin were introduced and enforced early in games ruthlessly, then players would smarten up very quickly when it comes to trying to get away with things. 14 v 15 in this game is a huge disadvantage. Not quite sure where you are going with this with the clothes line tackle? There is plenty punishment there at present for this in the form of a red card if the referee deems it deliberate/intentional. It's a different story when a lad in possession ducks down trying to evade a tackle and the tackler accidentally catches him high. This is normally cut and dry. A clothes line tackle where a guy puts his arm out to take a guy high is a straight red for dangerous play all day long. No further need for sanction or rule changes. We just need to UNDERSTAND fully the rules as they are at present.
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Post by homerj on Mar 9, 2016 15:40:32 GMT
ya no point appealing the alan fitx red card, he deserved it no matter what happened.
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Post by Dermot on Mar 9, 2016 16:45:54 GMT
I see Dermot is getting a good reaction again, and Tyrone were not even involved this time...! To be honest, if this was Tyrone/Derry or Armagh/Tyrone it would have been all over the news - typical Nordie stuff etc. Yep, I totally agree .. we'd have been called all sorts and would have had beautifully clean ex-players like Ciarán Whelan & Colm O'Rourke calling for lifetime suspensions
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Post by Dermot on Mar 9, 2016 16:55:47 GMT
Dermot If you come on again here today to try to cause mayhem, you will be banned for a month. Your choice. Mahem ? ... what Mahem was that now ? Would you like to attempt to point out how exactly I breached any rules? .. you'd have trouble !! Anyway, you're basically saying that if I post something that you dont agree with I'll be banned .. If thats the way this site is going then by all means fill your boots my friend
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Post by Dermot on Mar 9, 2016 17:28:51 GMT
It certainly does take two to tango but Im used to coming on here and hearing about how disgraceful the "Nordie" teams are, esp Tyrone and how its all their fault ... Im trying to shine a light on the fact that Kerry are involved in just as many of these incidents as the teams they like to castigate on here the most .... If pointing that out makes you and others think im doing it on for a reaction then Im afraid you're mistaken .. Im pointing out facts to try, yet again, to get a bit of balance !! Also, I see you have removed my response to Sully's post and indeed his initial post where he gets personal "again" .. probably for the best !! .. I know he's a great fella underneath it all though !! Of course they would but for most (not all .. there's still the usual sensible posters) to fixate on that and basically excuse/ignore the antics of certain Kerry players is a bit nuts is it not ? I don't think that's accurate Dermot, that the "it's ALL their fault" is the reflective opinion of the Kerry posters that when there is a heated encounter, whether it is Kerry v the Ulster teams as is your example or indeed Kerry v any team. Maybe some posters but for the majority, it is just not true. I'm not sure who started what on Sunday but there were certainly both sets of players involved and Kerry will deserve the sanctions imposed by the GAA as part of the punishment issued. I think there will be always some bias toward one's owe county in reviewing such matches, but I'd put it back to you that whilst you wish to introduce the balance to the the discussion you specifically look for the counter opinion to the Kerry view to achieve that balance. You're correct to try to look for that but I don't think it's reasonable to ignore the Kerry viewpoint at the same time, or to fleetingly refer to it, if providing a balanced view. I'd take that as an instinctive reaction from a non-Kerry contributor, any non-Kerry contributor but that itself means it is not devoid of balance either. An example being "for most to fixate on that". You're right the antics of the Kerry playesr should not be ignored in anyway, but the incident with McGee/Fitzgerald should absolutely be fixated upon by everyone who saw it no matter who they support. This crossed any defined line of acceptability of conduct on a pitch. The lack of provocation, intuitive motivation, or even a pumped up instense situation all made it even more reprehensible. What the **** is wrong with Neil McGee? He should ship some serious punishment for this. Fitzgerald despite being reactive/defensive can't throw three punches into the face of an opponent and will need to take whatver number of match supsensions he issued, even though it will be tough to swallow (that is boased )but don't try and tell me ANYONE would feel different if it was one of their own players to which that was subjected. Fitzwop, that’s the impression I get from, certainly not ALL posters but the majority of posters,.. maybe Im seeing it wrong .. I guess I do look out for the counter opinion and I think that’s because we (Tyrone) get called all sorts and dragged through the mire at every opportunity yet when certain other teams do the same or worse there’s hardly a word about it … Just imagine if Tyrone had been involved in that game … You have to admit the immediate aftermath and suggested consequences would have been much much worse … Last year we got dogs abuse for a lad making a pathetic silly mistake (hairgate).. he didn’t hurt anyone and he certainly didn’t invent diving in the GAA.. yet compare the aftermath of that game (Tyrone v Monaghan) to the Dublin v Mayo match or the Dublin v Kerry final where much worse things went on .. I genuinely believe Ulster teams in general get treated differently and of course we’re the worst of all apparently … I don’t believe this is deserved and I must admit I do like to point out evidence to support this .. This is a Kerry website so I guess I use Kerry as an example more often than not.. And btw, if I had been the Kerry No 14 I would have threw a few boxes too .. what else could he do
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