Jo90
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,695
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Post by Jo90 on Aug 11, 2022 19:19:52 GMT
Another puzzling thing, last year Kerry conceded 2-9 in turnovers to Tyrone, probably a net turnover loss of -13. Against Galway, Kerry conceded 0-2 in turnovers and scored 0-8 themselves, giving Kerry a net turnover gain of 0-6.
We only lost by one point to Tyrone, having lost our best player, and with a 19 pt turnover swing and keeping our best player, we were still level with Galway with 4 minutes to go.
You'd think such a dramatic change in turnovers would have meant a very easy win for Kerry, or does it mean we should have beaten Tyrone by 10+ points only for the turnover problem?
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 11, 2022 19:20:05 GMT
The real debate should be about how McDaid was allowed to do so much damage for so long. In my opinion anyway.
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 11, 2022 19:22:42 GMT
Another puzzling thing, last year Kerry conceded 2-9 in turnovers to Tyrone, probably a net turnover loss of -13. Against Galway, Kerry conceded 0-2 in turnovers and scored 0-8 themselves, giving Kerry a net turnover gain of 0-6. We only lost by one point to Tyrone, having lost our best player, and with a 19 pt turnover swing and keeping our best player, we were still level with Galway with 4 minutes to go. You'd think such a dramatic change in turnovers would have meant a very easy win for Kerry, or does it mean we should have beaten Tyrone by 10+ points only for the turnover problem? Tyrone only had 14 men for nearly a third of normal time.
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Post by breadwinner on Aug 11, 2022 19:24:04 GMT
POI. in that game in tralee ryan o donoghue scored 1 mark and 6 from frees, none from play. Tom Sullivan is the best man marker we have.swapping him off walsh could have made a bad situation worse.
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Jo90
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,695
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Post by Jo90 on Aug 11, 2022 19:44:34 GMT
Another puzzling thing, last year Kerry conceded 2-9 in turnovers to Tyrone, probably a net turnover loss of -13. Against Galway, Kerry conceded 0-2 in turnovers and scored 0-8 themselves, giving Kerry a net turnover gain of 0-6. We only lost by one point to Tyrone, having lost our best player, and with a 19 pt turnover swing and keeping our best player, we were still level with Galway with 4 minutes to go. You'd think such a dramatic change in turnovers would have meant a very easy win for Kerry, or does it mean we should have beaten Tyrone by 10+ points only for the turnover problem? Tyrone only had 14 men for nearly a third of normal time. If you discount the amount of time the Tyrone physio was on treating 'injuries', the total black card time only added up to about 5 minutes of actual playing time. Where do you think Comerford learnt his trick?
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Post by clarinman on Aug 11, 2022 20:55:46 GMT
Kerrybhoy, that was a good response to the debate I initiated. It is great to be able to be able to indulge in something so academic at this stage with Sam in the bag. Of course it is not entirely of academic interest because it is not unlikely that Galway could be a roadblock in our journey next year and Shane Walsh and Damien Comer will need to be dealt with again. Prior to the final, some of us here were discussing likely matchups in the final and I suggested Brian O’Beaghlaigh for Shane Walsh. I note Aodhan and Whoseinmidfield seem to be of like mind. Why diid I suggest Brian? Brian has tons of pace, is tenacious , would not be physically disadvantaged against Shane, has plenty of attitude and likes to operate in open prairie, just like Shane. He marked Shane in the the NFL in Tralee some years ago, the day David Clifford did the drag back , and snuffed him out. At the time I described Bran as the marker from hell for Shane. You might say, there is a big difference between a NFL game in Tralee and a championship game in Croke Park. That is a reasonable point but if you get the better, much the better , of an opponent in any game surely you will approach the next game against him full of confidence. Witness how Jack Barry grows an extra foot every time he meets Brian Fenton. Somebody said in a previous post that Shane Walsh, in that mood , this year’s final, is impossible to subdue. I do not accept that suggestion. A footballer is in “that mood” if his opponent is not good enough on a particular day. Witness the blotting out of Shane by a little known back against Derry. Shane was not allowed to be in the mood that day. It is reasonable to say in respect of the Derry match, Shane was shut out but look at the damage Damien Comer did. I do not want to detract one jot from Damien because he is a marvelous footballer. However, he was being marked by a fullback whose heart was in midfield , unlike Jason, and he scored a second goal, a fine effort indeed , when the Derry goalie was out walking his dog in some other parish. I would be one of last people to criticise Tom O’Sullivan. He has been one of our best players over the past couple of years , very often in defeat. However, I do think his form dipped in 2022 and I am not just referring to the final. It happens the best of players. For example he was well beaten Ryan O’Donoghue in Tralee , conceding points from play and from frees for fouls he committed on Ryan. There were other games along the way as well when he did not attain his ,admittedly , high standards of other years. I will now pose a further question. If we meet Galway next year with our same back line and their same forward line, would management be prepared to delegate the responsibility for Shane Walsh to Tom again? As a final word . We will never know how Brian would have fared on Shane in the final. No harm in speculating though. Look Vet blotting out a player in the league is different. Shane Walsh is an enigma and can be brutal some days but the next on fire. O Beaglaoich did well on him before but that does nt mean he d do it again. Sean Kelly blotted our own David Clifford out of it in the Sigerson cup final. Held him scoreless so it was obvious Kelly would mark him again. How did that fare out? Not great. Conceding 5 scores. 2 marks and 3 from play. Shane Walsh has blistering pace and a natural talent. Because he was quiet v Armagh and Derry I posted on this forum that I was worried Shane would have a blinder. Shane does nt like the rough stuff though. I would nt blame Tom at all. Someone said Shane is nt a goal threat. He definately is but he did nt get a sniff of our goal. There was no rough stuff from Derry's McClusky in the semi final. It was the best defensive performance I've seen all year. Good tight and fair man marking and Walsh couldn't shake him. He got only one shot away and that was wide. There was plenty of rough stuff from the Armagh number 2 in the quarter final though.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Aug 11, 2022 21:13:35 GMT
Marking Walsh is a damage limitation exercise as it is with any great forward, and Tom ensures we concede the minimum, what with his raw strength, speed, toughness, agility - ok maybe not quiet Foleys or Whites blistering acceleration but he has enough for Shane. Even being good on tight corners wouldn't bother Walsh - he is so natural.
This thread is getting interesting - just need more nuggets from those who were at the theatre.
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Post by john4 on Aug 11, 2022 21:27:08 GMT
Marking Walsh is a damage limitation exercise as it is with any great forward, and Tom ensures we concede the minimum, what with his raw strength, speed, toughness, agility - ok maybe not quiet Foleys or Whites blistering acceleration but he has enough for Shane. Even being good on tight corners wouldn't bother Walsh - he is so natural. This thread is getting interesting - just need more nuggets from those who were at the theatre. What I've noticed in recent years in particular, if a forward in in a difficult position for a shot, ie. where there's a high percentage chance of the ball going wide, the defender will probably make no effort to execute the block. Anything from tight angles and around the 45 are just left go because they generally won't do any damage. Shane Walsh thought is different gravy where he got the high percentage shots that most other intercounty footballers wouldn't. Anyway if you start diving on a fellas foot at 40m you're going to be dummied so this is all down to the quality of Walsh imo.
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Post by veteran on Aug 11, 2022 21:43:34 GMT
POI. in that game in tralee ryan o donoghue scored 1 mark and 6 from frees, none from play. Tom Sullivan is the best man marker we have.swapping him off walsh could have made a bad situation worse. My memory of that game in Tralee is that a lot of the frees Ryan O’Donoghue converted were due to fouls Tom committed on him. Of course , you could be right when you say switching Tom off Shane Walsh may have made a bad situation worse. We will never know.. My point in starting this discussion was the likely furore which would have ensued over the non switch in the event of Kerry losing. Others have raised a similar point over the freedom Cillian McDaid enjoyed. As Clarinman has pointed out, Ciarraimick is wrong to imply that the Derry lad engaged in “rough play “ against Shane. He beat him with pure football.
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Aodhan
Senior Member
Posts: 810
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Post by Aodhan on Aug 11, 2022 22:03:14 GMT
One would expect Galway’s challenge will be stronger next year. Their age profile is even younger than ours. Their full back Sean Mulkerrin will be back releasing Sean Kelly to his more natural position. Their no. 1 goalkeeper will be back. Peter Cooke may also be available after taking time off to travel. He is the natural replacement for Paul Conroy. Then there is Eamon Brannigan, a great talent, gone from the panel at 25. Played for his county in underage hurling also. Will he have a reconciliation with Padraig? Doubtful.
Incidentally Sean Kelly was not directly marking David Clifford in the Sigerson Cup final, he was sweeping in front of him.
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exiled
Senior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by exiled on Aug 11, 2022 22:06:55 GMT
Jason Foley leaves Ballyd to join a club 2 hours away, for arguments sake we’ll say Nemo rangers. Do you wish him well? No rambling nonsense, just a simple yes or no Yes. And as for the 'rambling nonsense' the rest of us can read Walsh's article on how the regional imbalance of economic activity across the state increasingly distances parish from workplace - now that's rambling for you! Travel home 4 times a week = 16 hours, fuel, etc - then his county commitments. And the weight of expectation on him to lead the team, etc - TBH I'd be surprised if it was possible not to do it. The better a player is the more that is expected of him. Rural Ireland needs support and the first thing is to lock up those who cause it and/or prevent it's rejuvenation - Gombeens they are called and we all know who they are - staging insurance claims, etc. And of course towns are included in that - I once had a GAA laddo say I shouldn't raise this issue, next thing he is on local media moaning that he is a victim of it. How many tourist attractions, sports centres, pubs, creches, etc struggle as a consequence? Farmers are big insurance customers, all small businesses - GAA grounds, etc. Look at what they screw local councils for and who just add it on to rate payers' bills and also cut expenditure on local amenities. It is the same greasy paws who raid the till, craw thumpers frothing from the mouth - too much is never enough. If this was addressed then the Shane Walshs and Mark O'Connors of the GAA world would have less reason to move away. Now this is what I call Rambling Nonsense. Why should young intelligent people not try to further their career and opportunities. It's always happened in this country and world. Should we blame them because of our selfish wish to keep them at our beck and call.
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exiled
Senior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by exiled on Aug 11, 2022 22:09:09 GMT
The Wild Colonial Boy. A world famous song. Must be from the same neck of the woods as I am.
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Post by Whosinmidfield on Aug 11, 2022 22:19:55 GMT
Another puzzling thing, last year Kerry conceded 2-9 in turnovers to Tyrone, probably a net turnover loss of -13. Against Galway, Kerry conceded 0-2 in turnovers and scored 0-8 themselves, giving Kerry a net turnover gain of 0-6. We only lost by one point to Tyrone, having lost our best player, and with a 19 pt turnover swing and keeping our best player, we were still level with Galway with 4 minutes to go. You'd think such a dramatic change in turnovers would have meant a very easy win for Kerry, or does it mean we should have beaten Tyrone by 10+ points only for the turnover problem? That point is very interesting. My answer to it would be a change in the approach to the opposition’s kick outs. I don’t have the stats to hand but I remember that we got a lot of joy from Morgan’s kick outs. Pressing the kick out was a big tactic of Peter Keane’s but at times it also contributed to our openness at the back. Jack has changed that approach this year, we don’t press anywhere near as aggressively but that means we’re more organised defensively and we also have more of an emphasis on trying to turn them over once they’ve secured possession. So basically I think we’ve swapped kick outs for turnovers as our primary tactic of creating more attacks than the opposition. A crucial tactical shift that had a big part to play in us getting over the line this year. Chasing kick outs is more high risk than chasing turnovers and reducing risk is probably the right choice simply because we’ve David Clifford.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Aug 11, 2022 23:30:14 GMT
Yes. And as for the 'rambling nonsense' the rest of us can read Walsh's article on how the regional imbalance of economic activity across the state increasingly distances parish from workplace - now that's rambling for you! Travel home 4 times a week = 16 hours, fuel, etc - then his county commitments. And the weight of expectation on him to lead the team, etc - TBH I'd be surprised if it was possible not to do it. The better a player is the more that is expected of him. Rural Ireland needs support and the first thing is to lock up those who cause it and/or prevent it's rejuvenation - Gombeens they are called and we all know who they are - staging insurance claims, etc. And of course towns are included in that - I once had a GAA laddo say I shouldn't raise this issue, next thing he is on local media moaning that he is a victim of it. How many tourist attractions, sports centres, pubs, creches, etc struggle as a consequence? Farmers are big insurance customers, all small businesses - GAA grounds, etc. Look at what they screw local councils for and who just add it on to rate payers' bills and also cut expenditure on local amenities. It is the same greasy paws who raid the till, craw thumpers frothing from the mouth - too much is never enough. If this was addressed then the Shane Walshs and Mark O'Connors of the GAA world would have less reason to move away. Now this is what I call Rambling Nonsense. Why should young intelligent people not try to further their career and opportunities. It's always happened in this country and world. Should we blame them because of our selfish wish to keep them at our beck and call. That's exactly what I said - and I said it re Mark and indeed Tadhgeen, and as most others would have, did. What I am also saying though is that we should 'deGombeenise' rural Ireland, if for no other reason other than to reduce the hardship and make it easier for GAA players, voluntary people and indeed everyone to make the contribution they do. I heard of a local solicitor lately who charged €35,000 for less than 3 days work, and then you have bogus insurance claims that are actually 10 times the corresponding UK amounts - those benefitting say it is because 'we have worse car crashes' if you don't mind - yeah, cars travel faster in Lyreacrompane than on the motorways of the UK. This all has to be paid and that rockets the cost of living and if you call that 'rambling nonsense' then good luck to you.
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Post by veteran on Aug 12, 2022 8:40:19 GMT
The real debate should be about how McDaid was allowed to do so much damage for so long. In my opinion anyway. I have no doubt that question would have arisen as well if we lost . My problem in entering that debate is I do not know who was marking him at that stage and with David M gone I have no ready suggestion as to what move should have been made to challenge his dominance. It is conceivable that management did make a switch which was not obvious to us. Is is often very hard in modern football to know who is marking who. There is no doubt, when management are reviewing the final , when the first glow of victory has worn away, they will cast a cold eye on the Walsh/McDaid displays with an eye to the future . Jack would be naive not to do so and naivety isn’t one of his traits.
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Post by veteran on Aug 12, 2022 10:49:07 GMT
I was calling for Beaglaoich to be moved onto him too. I'm just after watching the highlights again(not full game). On McDaid he scored a point in first half too before Moran went off and its hard to see who was marking him in 2nd half but it seemed to be between Diarmuid and Adrian. Maybe I'll see more watching full game again. Now what I did notice is Ó Beaglaoich was caught out twice. Galway had one goal chance and it came from Johnny Heaney who slipped inside un noticed by Briain only for SOB to make a great block but Heaney scored a point. Heaney was the other forward to score Also Heaney set up a point for McDaid as Ó Beaglaoi was caught out badly with a high ball from Conroy. Conroy went for a point and it was drifting wide. O Beaglaoich was lost probably thinking it was wide but Heaney got it and set up score so maybe we better off Ó Beaglaoich was nt on Walsh. Twice his lack of concentration cost us 2 points and nearly a goal. That would be catastrophic v Walsh. Maybe it's a case of alls well that's ends well. In spite of all these “heroics” by Johnny Heaney did you notice that he was substituted with a significant part of the match remaining. I wonder why. Shane Walsh wasn’t substituted. I wonder why.
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 12, 2022 10:52:29 GMT
Lads are substituted when the trackers on their jersey indicates that their energy levels as well as other vital signs are depleted.
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Post by veteran on Aug 12, 2022 10:56:49 GMT
Lads are substituted when the trackers on their jersey indicates that their energy levels as well as other vital signs are depleted. Apart from injury , would there be another reason for a substitution?
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 12, 2022 11:17:56 GMT
Lads are substituted when the trackers on their jersey indicates that their energy levels as well as other vital signs are depleted. Apart from injury , would there be another reason for a substitution? Others may be better able to explain this but i understand that that yoke on the back of a players jersey gives realtime data on all sorts of stuff and it will be obvious if a player is 'out on his feet' so to speak
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Post by blacksheep21 on Aug 12, 2022 11:21:07 GMT
Stephen O Brien was also substituted with around 15 minutes to go. Most people believe he had a good game
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 12, 2022 11:30:49 GMT
Being taken off is not always a sign that a player is playing poorly. Sometimes it just means that he had emptied the tank. SoB did anyway as one example.
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Post by homerj on Aug 12, 2022 11:32:06 GMT
not all teams would have realtime data. depends on how much they want to spend on them. others are put into a system afterwards
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Post by veteran on Aug 12, 2022 11:51:00 GMT
I understand about these tracker devices , to an extent anyway, but of course in certain circumstances they can be used in a diplomatic way to withdraw a player performing suboptimally without that player losing face,
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 12, 2022 12:33:22 GMT
I understand about these tracker devices , to an extent anyway, but of course in certain circumstances they can be used in a diplomatic way to withdraw a player performing suboptimally without that player losing face, SoB was taken off. Would you consider that a signal that he was performing suboptimally?
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Post by veteran on Aug 12, 2022 13:23:09 GMT
I understand about these tracker devices , to an extent anyway, but of course in certain circumstances they can be used in a diplomatic way to withdraw a player performing suboptimally without that player losing face, SoB was taken off. Would you consider that a signal that he was performing suboptimally? Of course not. I cannot understand why you ask that question. You know as well as I do that there are a few reasons why fellows are replaced e.g. injury, playing poorly, and now it seems a tracker device signal. I did make the point that the latter reason can be usefully used to replace a player who is not showing up well in order to preserve dignity.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 12, 2022 13:42:37 GMT
That point is very interesting. My answer to it would be a change in the approach to the opposition’s kick outs. I don’t have the stats to hand but I remember that we got a lot of joy from Morgan’s kick outs. Pressing the kick out was a big tactic of Peter Keane’s but at times it also contributed to our openness at the back. Jack has changed that approach this year, we don’t press anywhere near as aggressively but that means we’re more organised defensively and we also have more of an emphasis on trying to turn them over once they’ve secured possession. So basically I think we’ve swapped kick outs for turnovers as our primary tactic of creating more attacks than the opposition. A crucial tactical shift that had a big part to play in us getting over the line this year. Chasing kick outs is more high risk than chasing turnovers and reducing risk is probably the right choice simply because we’ve David Clifford. Kerry were unlucky v Tyrone if you watch game back. Also we were down 5 points in extra time and brought it back to one point without David Clifford on the pitch. Also we missed a chance of an equaliser. We outscored Tyrone but we did some silly things too. We were nt as bad as some made out. We beat Tyrone midfield and our backs were nt bad as some think. I know many blame Jack Barry for Tyrone s 3 Rd goal but he was being held and had no choice but to swing his boot at the ball and he was unlucky it went to a Tyrone player. 9 times out of 10 it would have been cleared. Sometimes in big games it's small margins. We did nt get the luck that day but we got it with Galway. Plus we have a much better manager this year, don’t lose sight of that
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 12, 2022 13:49:20 GMT
I know I said it earlier but I’ll say it again- Brian isn’t a man marker in the same class as Tom Sull and to be honest if Brian was put on Walsh then I’d have fancied Walsh to turn him and get a run on goal a few times.
Also I’d imagine that Galway would have moved Walsh closer to goal of being marked by Brian
Our defensive plan was don’t give away goals and don’t let them break lines and if they wanna take low percentage shots from outside (perceived) scoring zones then let them.
It’s a logical enough approach and allowing Walsh to do it was logical aswell as he had been little or no threat against Armagh or Derry.
I think if we had been offered in advance that comer wouldn’t score, that they’d have no goal chance and that Walsh’s only chances would be shots from 35+ yards out then you’d say that your defensive set up worked.
Goals are what has killed us over the last few years and we removed them as a factor in the game.
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Post by Whosinmidfield on Aug 12, 2022 15:17:47 GMT
Stephen O’Brien will nearly always be taken off because of the role he plays. He’s constantly up and down the field and does a load of work. It only makes sense to bring in fresh legs in that role in the second half.
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Post by southward on Aug 12, 2022 16:17:16 GMT
www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40937801.htmlKerry fullback and probable All-Star Jason Foley is just about getting over a whirlwind couple of weeks that culminated in being feted by his own people in Ballydonoghue and Lisselton on Monday night when he brought Sam home to North Kerry. But speaking at the Kerry SFC launch prior to heading home on Monday night, he revealed there are special moments post-All-Ireland Final win that are rarely talked about but are ones that he will cherish forever. "Absolutely not and I don’t think we realised at the time, that that moment passes fairly quickly. "Obviously, when the final whistle went it’s a dream you’ve had since you were a kid. That moment, those couple of minutes, that half hour inside the dressing room with the lads... I remember saying to myself I have to cherish this moment because it passes fairly quickly, but it was fairly special. “Even leaving the pitch for us was a bit of a wrench. I just wanted to soak it all in, we were going around the pitch for what felt like a long time, but looking back it probably wasn’t. Even in the dressing room you just want to absolutely soak every second of it in and take it all in, because as soon as we left the dressing room obviously it was a little bit of a circus and there were formalities and things like that. We just made sure that we were enjoying the moments." Jason and Tadgh Morley formed a solid spine in a defence that conceded one Championship goal, so with Tadgh missing most of 2021 was it difficult to get used to playing with him? "No definitely not. "Myself and Tadhg are playing with each other a good few years at this stage and you have to build up that mental telepathy with each other and, I suppose, in the big moments we rely on each other as a group, as a defence. "A few of us have been around the block now a good few years and have been in semi-finals and finals. Relationships build up over time and we’ve a really positive relationship on the field and off the field this year and I think it really helped us this year.” But a new manager at the start of the year with Jack O’Connor, how did that dynamic work? “For me personally I’ve had Jack before. That sort of helped straight away, I just felt it was a throwback to when I was with the minor age group! I had him in 2014 and 2015 and it’s like when he came back, when he rang me first, where we left off. Obviously, Jack is a fantastic coach and manager so he was able to bring the group together, get a good team behind him." The second-half display in the All-Ireland Final pleased Jason after a below-par first half. “It was fantastic. When you’re playing it’s a little bit of a blur obviously, in hindsight maybe we were. We just focused on targets and stuff like that and try to achieve those targets. Obviously, we didn’t hit them in the first half and that was that. We weren't happy with that at half-time, we knew that once we redressed that we’d go a long way to winning it and we did in the end." But the Ballydonoghue clubman admits there was pressure on Kerry to deliver Sam this year. “There was. I felt a bit of relief. We were in semi-finals and two finals in ‘19. There was a certain amount of pressure on us, just to finally get over the line, of course it was relief. Just to finally get the job done. It was pure elation, but there was a bit of relief.”
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Post by homerj on Aug 12, 2022 16:23:05 GMT
Martin Brehany has said this team will be a flop if they dont win more all irelands.
Sam only home 3 weeks and already at this sh*t. no other county has to put up with this rubbish.
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