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Post by clarinman on Apr 2, 2019 12:25:34 GMT
It wasn't a double hop as he didn't catch it. Perfectly legit. The rules actually aren't 100% clear. The bounce isn't defined in the rules. Is a bounce a bounce and a catch... or just a bounce? The rules say: "When a player is in possession of the ball, it may be:- (a) carried for a maximum of four consecutive steps or held in the hand(s) for no longer than the time needed to take four steps; (b) played from the foot to the hand(s) -toetapped; (c) bounced once, and once after each toe-tap; (d) changed from one hand to the other once, with the original holding hand maintaining contact until the change is completed; (e) played away with: (i) a fist (ii) an open hand-in which instance there shall be a definite underhand striking action (f) released for a kick, a toe-tap or a pass with a fist or an open hand. The ball may be knocked from an opponent’s hand(s) by flicking it with the open hand." and "When the ball has not been caught, it may be bounced more than once in succession."
Say a bounce doesn't involve a catch: Bounce - Bounce - Catch is OK Bounce - Catch - Bounce - Catch is a double hop Bounce - Catch - Bounce - No Catch isn't covered in the rules. Perhaps the rule should say that a bounce is a bounce AND a catch. Then the usual basketball effort is not a double bounce nor is Clifford's. If a bounce is just hand to ground then Clifford certainly did double hop. Ambiguous. "When the ball has not been caught, it may be bounced more than once in succession." This part of the rule means that Cliford fouled the ball as he caught it after the first bounce. For me, this rule separates the catch from the bounce.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Apr 2, 2019 12:46:18 GMT
The rules actually aren't 100% clear. The bounce isn't defined in the rules. Is a bounce a bounce and a catch... or just a bounce? The rules say: "When a player is in possession of the ball, it may be:- (a) carried for a maximum of four consecutive steps or held in the hand(s) for no longer than the time needed to take four steps; (b) played from the foot to the hand(s) -toetapped; (c) bounced once, and once after each toe-tap; (d) changed from one hand to the other once, with the original holding hand maintaining contact until the change is completed; (e) played away with: (i) a fist (ii) an open hand-in which instance there shall be a definite underhand striking action (f) released for a kick, a toe-tap or a pass with a fist or an open hand. The ball may be knocked from an opponent’s hand(s) by flicking it with the open hand." and "When the ball has not been caught, it may be bounced more than once in succession."
Say a bounce doesn't involve a catch: Bounce - Bounce - Catch is OK Bounce - Catch - Bounce - Catch is a double hop Bounce - Catch - Bounce - No Catch isn't covered in the rules. Perhaps the rule should say that a bounce is a bounce AND a catch. Then the usual basketball effort is not a double bounce nor is Clifford's. If a bounce is just hand to ground then Clifford certainly did double hop. Ambiguous. "When the ball has not been caught, it may be bounced more than once in succession." This part of the rule means that Cliford fouled the ball as he caught it after the first bounce. For me, this rule separates the catch from the bounce. That does make sense BUT...is it a bounce (the second bounce of Clifford) if it isn't caught?
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Post by turmace on Apr 2, 2019 13:43:32 GMT
"When the ball has not been caught, it may be bounced more than once in succession." This part of the rule means that Cliford fouled the ball as he caught it after the first bounce. For me, this rule separates the catch from the bounce. That does make sense BUT...is it a bounce (the second bounce of Clifford) if it isn't caught? The Key part to me is "When a player is in possession of the ball"- when the ball is being bounced it's not in the players possession. So Unless Cliford gathered the ball after the second bounce no offence has been committed. All that being said, Reading the rule book it defines a Bounce as: For a player who has caught the ball to play the ball against the ground with his hand(s) and to catch it on return to his hand(s) again.
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kerryexile
Fanatical Member
Whether you believe that you can, or that you can't, you are right anyway.
Posts: 1,123
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Post by kerryexile on Apr 2, 2019 14:08:28 GMT
The rules actually aren't 100% clear. Ambiguous. "When the ball has not been caught, it may be bounced more than once in succession." This part of the rule means that Cliford fouled the ball as he caught it after the first bounce. For me, this rule separates the catch from the bounce. Wouldn't that interpretation make it illegal to hop the ball and then take a drop kick.
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Post by colinsworth1 on Apr 2, 2019 14:24:15 GMT
Now that the dust is settling somewhat can I offer an alternative piece of hindsight Losing by a narrow margin was not so bad especially when you consider That we played with 1 a roving mobile non zonal full back ( unprecedented) 2 a roving mobile. Out of position center forward 3 an injured wing forward 4 an injured corner forward 5 a rookie midfielder who hasn’t shown in any game yet
And we still could have stolen this game ! History may be a bit kinder to Eamon Fitz yet .
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Post by clarinman on Apr 2, 2019 14:48:27 GMT
"When the ball has not been caught, it may be bounced more than once in succession." This part of the rule means that Cliford fouled the ball as he caught it after the first bounce. For me, this rule separates the catch from the bounce. That does make sense BUT...is it a bounce (the second bounce of Clifford) if it isn't caught? I found this on page 95 of the GAA official guide part 2. Looks like I was wrong and Clifford did not foul the ball. Important Terms and Definitions - Football and Hurling The following list of Definitions of Terms used in the Playing Rules forms an integral part of these rules. 1. BOUNCE For a player who has caught the ball to play the ball against the ground with his hand(s) and to catch it on return to his hand(s) again.
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Post by dc84 on Apr 2, 2019 15:13:46 GMT
That does make sense BUT...is it a bounce (the second bounce of Clifford) if it isn't caught? I found this on page 95 of the GAA official guide part 2. Looks like I was wrong and Clifford did not foul the ball. Important Terms and Definitions - Football and Hurling The following list of Definitions of Terms used in the Playing Rules forms an integral part of these rules. 1. BOUNCE For a player who has caught the ball to play the ball against the ground with his hand(s) and to catch it on return to his hand(s) again. The main thing is the boy wonder that is clifford did what quick thinking!😀
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Apr 2, 2019 15:19:52 GMT
That does make sense BUT...is it a bounce (the second bounce of Clifford) if it isn't caught? I found this on page 95 of the GAA official guide part 2. Looks like I was wrong and Clifford did not foul the ball. Important Terms and Definitions - Football and Hurling The following list of Definitions of Terms used in the Playing Rules forms an integral part of these rules. 1. BOUNCE For a player who has caught the ball to play the ball against the ground with his hand(s) and to catch it on return to his hand(s) again. Ah there it is! A bounce is a bounce and a catch!
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Post by Attacking Wing Back on Apr 2, 2019 15:21:54 GMT
Thought it was fairly obvious the bounce involves the catch as well. Otherwise all the drop kicks out of defence by Kerry in the 70's would have been technical fouls. I remember when Kerry lost to mayo in 96 in croke Liam McHale bounced the ball on route to goal about 3 times like a basketball dribble. And whoever was on the sunday game that night was at pains to point it wasn't a double hop as he didn't catch the ball.
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Post by dc84 on Apr 2, 2019 15:22:03 GMT
Now that the dust is settling somewhat can I offer an alternative piece of hindsight Losing by a narrow margin was not so bad especially when you consider That we played with 1 a roving mobile non zonal full back ( unprecedented) 2 a roving mobile. Out of position center forward 3 an injured wing forward 4 an injured corner forward 5 a rookie midfielder who hasn’t shown in any game yet And we still could have stolen this game ! History may be a bit kinder to Eamon Fitz yet . Eamonn wasnt a bad manager in my book he did most things right last year sometimes its just time to go fresh voice and all that. Im glad pk wasnt in last year, i dont think the results wouldve been much different and Eamonn introduced a thrid of a new team all our rivals have older more settled teams for the most part patience is required. With the exception of foley not getting more game time (our 2nd best defender) i havent seen too many mistakes from pk yet. Im optimistic about the future mainly because we have stuck in and won tight games, even on Sunday we were in it till the dying moments that is a trait of all champions.
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Post by clarinman on Apr 2, 2019 15:54:37 GMT
Thought it was fairly obvious the bounce involves the catch as well. Otherwise all the drop kicks out of defence by Kerry in the 70's would have been technical fouls. I remember when Kerry lost to mayo in 96 in croke Liam McHale bounced the ball on route to goal about 3 times like a basketball dribble. And whoever was on the sunday game that night was at pains to point it wasn't a double hop as he didn't catch the ball. The bounce rule was changed at congress in 2010. A “double bounce” is not effected until the ball is “caught” on completion of the second bounce.
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Post by dc84 on Apr 2, 2019 16:34:28 GMT
Thought it was fairly obvious the bounce involves the catch as well. Otherwise all the drop kicks out of defence by Kerry in the 70's would have been technical fouls. I remember when Kerry lost to mayo in 96 in croke Liam McHale bounced the ball on route to goal about 3 times like a basketball dribble. And whoever was on the sunday game that night was at pains to point it wasn't a double hop as he didn't catch the ball. The bounce rule was changed at congress in 2010. A “double bounce” is not effected until the ball is “caught” on completion of the second bounce. its actually made me think could i bounce pass the ball to someone ? For example if i dropped the ball there is no restriction on a team mate picking it up, could i therefore bounce the ball into a teammates hands? I know it would probably be blown but is it technically a free?
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Post by southward on Apr 2, 2019 17:00:42 GMT
No one is blaming the jerseys but win lose or draw they are putrid. I hope I never see them again. Agree 100%. That said I was sitting beside 2 Waterford ladies on Sunday who thought the gold jersey was beautiful! It still mystifies me that Kerry and Mayo never changed jerseys until 2011. As far as I can recall anyway. Ah well then...
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Post by southward on Apr 2, 2019 17:04:31 GMT
Mickmack, That's why I couldn't understand Horan's ridiculous comment about how they could have actually have won by 10 or 12 points. Still a bit sore over Limerick '14 perhaps? What game was he looking at? He'll rue that comment yet.
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Post by southward on Apr 2, 2019 17:10:03 GMT
Even in victory several Mayo fans I met were obnoxious - a congratulatory comment resulted in a middle finger salute. Sad that the chip on some shoulders appears permanent. Probably mayoforsam. Himself and a few others were on here gloating after they beat us in 2017; got themselves banned for their trouble. It's not easy to be gracious in defeat but if you can't be so in victory, there's something wrong with you.
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Post by onlykerry on Apr 2, 2019 17:11:11 GMT
Mickmack, That's why I couldn't understand Horan's ridiculous comment about how they could have actually have won by 10 or 12 points. Still a bit sore over Limerick '14 perhaps? What game was he looking at? He'll rue that comment yet. Horan probably thought getting the ball over the end line was a score - them Mayo forwards were always confused by the goal posts and now we know why.
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 2, 2019 19:09:51 GMT
Andy Moran had a massive influence when he arrived on 50 mins. Not once did he waste a ball and he was involved in everything.
TW lost the first 4 or 5 balls that went into him at the start of the second half. Not good enough v Mayo or Dublin i am afraid.
DC would have caused mayhem with those if he were at full forward. I think we need him to be more centrally involved at full forward.
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Post by taggert on Apr 2, 2019 19:53:51 GMT
Andy Moran had a massive influence when he arrived on 50 mins. Not once did he waste a ball and he was involved in everything. TW lost the first 4 or 5 balls that went into him at the start of the second half. Not good enough v Mayo or Dublin i am afraid. DC would have caused mayhem with those if he were at full forward. I think we need him to be more centrally involved at full forward. Good points. AM was v busy when he came on. Hadnt realised at the game how poor TW was in the second half until I watched it back. He turned over a pile of ball. Posession is gold against Dublin and Mayo. Its why the mistake for the first goal (PM and DOC) and the 2 points that MGriffin gave away (51 and 55) were killers. While Kerry worked 2 fine goals, Mayo were essentially gifted their 3.
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Post by dc84 on Apr 2, 2019 20:06:32 GMT
Andy Moran had a massive influence when he arrived on 50 mins. Not once did he waste a ball and he was involved in everything. TW lost the first 4 or 5 balls that went into him at the start of the second half. Not good enough v Mayo or Dublin i am afraid. DC would have caused mayhem with those if he were at full forward. I think we need him to be more centrally involved at full forward. Good points. AM was v busy when he came on. Hadnt realised at the game how poor TW was in the second half until I watched it back. He turned over a pile of ball. Posession is gold against Dublin and Mayo. Its why the mistake for the first goal (PM and DOC) and the 2 points that MGriffin gave away (51 and 55) were killers. While Kerry worked 2 fine goals, Mayo were essentially gifted their 3. 2 serious finishes in fairness, thats what i like about gavin crowley hes got guts
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Post by sullyschoice on Apr 2, 2019 20:37:45 GMT
Even in victory several Mayo fans I met were obnoxious - a congratulatory comment resulted in a middle finger salute. Sad that the chip on some shoulders appears permanent. Probably mayoforsam. Himself and a few others were on here gloating after they beat us in 2017; got themselves banned for their trouble. It's not easy to be gracious in defeat but if you can't be so in victory, there's something wrong with you. I was in The Brogue after the Mayo game two weeks ago with two Mayo friends of mine. We got talking to a Mayo couple about nothing in particular. The woman was looking for somewhere decent to get chips and burgers. Then out of the blue she starts this aul *e about Kerry supporters being the worst she ever came across. I reminded her of the big fat fella in Limerick and she said he only did what every other Mayo supporter wanted to do. I terminated my conversation and requested that she do the same. She kept it up so I just ignored her. My pals were bewildered. The husband didnt even seem to realise what she was on about. They weren't plastered either. I wouldn't dream of having a go at someone I never met before in such circumstances. I suppose it takes all sorts
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Post by Deise Exile on Apr 2, 2019 22:03:34 GMT
My fear is they will be extremely ungracious if they do win Sam but it is still unlikely. They still don't have enough marquee forwards
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Post by kerryboy83 on Apr 2, 2019 22:32:41 GMT
I fir one hope Mayo never win Sam. The worst supporters ever. U beat them, u get dogs abuse, they beat us and there gloating in ur face. I often say if a guy came from another planet and landed in Mayo , he wud think these guys are the kings of football with the way they carry on
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Post by jackiel on Apr 2, 2019 22:41:10 GMT
They were celebrating as if they'd won Sam. Team didn't leave dressing room for ages. IMHO their best chance at Sam, they bottled and drew with Dublin who beat them in the replay. They didn't have the belief to finish them off. I don't think they'll do it this year either. BTW Liam Moggan is part of their back room team this year.
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Post by baurtregaum on Apr 2, 2019 23:01:23 GMT
They were celebrating as if they'd won Sam. Team didn't leave dressing room for ages. IMHO their best chance at Sam, they bottled and drew with Dublin who beat them in the replay. They didn't have the belief to finish them off. I don't think they'll do it this year either. BTW Liam Moggan is part of their back room team this year. They are ahead of us at the moment no doubt and congratulations to them. But this win is a double-edged sword. The media are saying that Dublin have regressed and the 5-in-a-row is no inevitability. I'd imagine Mayo are going to be hyped up big time over the next few months and that will bring its own, different pressures. Horan should know how to deal with that but it is hard to stop it seeping in. Time will tell. We seem to have been written of for this year at least which will suit us.
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Post by ballynamona on Apr 2, 2019 23:47:27 GMT
My fear is they will be extremely ungracious if they do win Sam but it is still unlikely. They still don't have enough marquee forwards We can't place ourselves in their shoes. Some have become bitter, no doubt. Many are great though.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2019 8:17:32 GMT
One huge positive in losing on Sunday is that the media will pretty much disregard us as serious contenders. All the focus will now be on Mayo and how they can stop the five in a row. If we had of won, the hype machine would have gone into overdrive. No harm, as a young team, they can prepare for the championship in relative calm!
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 3, 2019 8:20:35 GMT
They were celebrating as if they'd won Sam. Team didn't leave dressing room for ages. IMHO their best chance at Sam, they bottled and drew with Dublin who beat them in the replay. They didn't have the belief to finish them off. I don't think they'll do it this year either. BTW Liam Moggan is part of their back room team this year. I am pretty certain Cillian would have tapped over the 25 yards free to win the All Ireland in 2016... the free that wasnt given for the Bastick pickup at the end of the drawn game. Dublin would be trying to win 3inarow this year if that happened. If Croke Park was in Castlebar they too would have been helped over the line. It was a simple free that wasnt given to Mayo....simple compared to Rocks free in 2017 or Cluxtons in 2011 which won the All Irelands for Dublin
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Post by kerrygold on Apr 3, 2019 8:22:57 GMT
They were celebrating as if they'd won Sam. Team didn't leave dressing room for ages. IMHO their best chance at Sam, they bottled and drew with Dublin who beat them in the replay. They didn't have the belief to finish them off. I don't think they'll do it this year either. BTW Liam Moggan is part of their back room team this year. I am pretty certain Cillian would have tapped over the 25 yards free to win the All Ireland in 2016... the free that wasnt given for the Bastick pickup at the end of the drawn game. Dublin would be trying to win 3inarow this year if that happened. If Croke Park was in Castlebar they too would have been helped over the line. It was a simple free that wasnt given to Mayo....simple compared to Rocks free in 2017 or Cluxtons in 2011 which won the All Irelands for Dublin It will be interesting to see if Croker want to complete the Dublin project this year or else lance the boil...... Kerry were around too long in 2011.
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Post by kerrygold on Apr 3, 2019 8:24:59 GMT
They were celebrating as if they'd won Sam. Team didn't leave dressing room for ages. IMHO their best chance at Sam, they bottled and drew with Dublin who beat them in the replay. They didn't have the belief to finish them off. I don't think they'll do it this year either. BTW Liam Moggan is part of their back room team this year. I think it was great to see Mayo celebrating their league win. There have been far too many dour league winning faces around in the past. The NFL represents a huge chunk of the intercounty season.
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 3, 2019 8:26:33 GMT
My fear is they will be extremely ungracious if they do win Sam but it is still unlikely. They jstill don't have enough marquee forwards We can't place ourselves in their shoes. Some have become bitter, no doubt. Many are great though. After not winning 10 finals in Croker, I thought the outpouring of emotion was a sight to see. A lady beside me couldnt hold her phone up to take photos as her hand was shaking too much. The vast majority of Mayo supporters are dead sound. We have a few insufferable types in Kerry too.
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