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Post by kerrygold on Jun 28, 2016 10:26:11 GMT
Martin McHugh while co-commentating on Dublin v Meath yesterday, spoke some words of genuine value and interest, in the same sentence. You had to be there. I had to be careful of the impact as was driving at the time. He basically stated that while Meath were hauling down Dublin players for simple Rock the teach points, that Micko had for want of a better phrase (well I don't want really) "coached the fcuk" out of the tackle, i his time with the Lillies. He had an eye/ear exploding stat that Kildare only gave away 4 frees in the final against Gaillimh in 98. When playing Dublin/Donegal/Kerry/Mayo who have William Tell free takers, this lesson would be well revisited. KG - I think it's a tough call to make about not sharing Paul's emotion, when he played through 2 of the finals in which we losts against Tyrone. I think you'd have to have played those games to align with him and how he was feeling at the time. I think the Dublin situtaion is not a million miles away from Tyrone. Although I think you may be right by saying the Dublin team talent is a gap further than the gap Tyrone brought against Kerry in finals. Either way, the outcome is still sore bawlix Or the current Kerry team isn't in the same ball park region as the Kerry team from the '00s might be more precise? The pick of the '00s crop would comfortably live with the current Dublin team who are at their peak right now.
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seamus
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Post by seamus on Jun 28, 2016 10:54:05 GMT
Hard to see many of the 2016 Kerry team making the 04-09 Kerry team David Moran and James O'Donoghue.
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Post by jackeensabhog on Jun 28, 2016 15:13:54 GMT
Martin McHugh while co-commentating on Dublin v Meath yesterday, spoke some words of genuine value and interest, in the same sentence. You had to be there. I had to be careful of the impact as was driving at the time. He basically stated that while Meath were hauling down Dublin players for simple Rock the teach points, that Micko had for want of a better phrase (well I don't want really) "coached the fcuk" out of the tackle, i his time with the Lillies. He had an eye/ear exploding stat that Kildare only gave away 4 frees in the final against Gaillimh in 98. When playing Dublin/Donegal/Kerry/Mayo who have William Tell free takers, this lesson would be well revisited. KG - I think it's a tough call to make about not sharing Paul's emotion, when he played through 2 of the finals in which we losts against Tyrone. I think you'd have to have played those games to align with him and how he was feeling at the time. I think the Dublin situtaion is not a million miles away from Tyrone. Although I think you may be right by saying the Dublin team talent is a gap further than the gap Tyrone brought against Kerry in finals. Either way, the outcome is still sore bawlix Or the current Kerry team isn't in the same ball park region as the Kerry team from the '00s might be more precise? The pick of the '00s crop would comfortably live with the current Dublin team who are at their peak right now. History would indicate otherwise. The 2011 kerry team contained many great players at their peak and in the end, they couldn't liive with the then Dublin team in the same year, granted Kerry failed to close out the game. These were the stalwarts of the 00's team, save for D O'Se and S Scanlon. I think the present Dublin squad is infinetly superior to their 2011 equivalent. I'll put it to you this way, who of the 2011 players below wouldn't make it into the current kerry team. If they couldn't live with them in 2011, why would it be different in 2016? kerry all Ireland team 2011 Brendan Kealy, Killian Young, Marc Ó Sé, Tom O'Sullivan, Tomas Ó Sé, Eoin Brosnan, Aidan O'Mahony, Anthony Maher, Bryan Sheehan, Darran O'Sullivan, Declan O'Sullivan, Donnchadh Walsh, Colm Cooper, Kieran Donaghy, Kieran O'Leary I'm not trying to detract from one the great teams to play the game, but I don't follow your logic.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 28, 2016 16:30:24 GMT
Or the current Kerry team isn't in the same ball park region as the Kerry team from the '00s might be more precise? The pick of the '00s crop would comfortably live with the current Dublin team who are at their peak right now. History would indicate otherwise. The 2011 kerry team contained many great players at their peak and in the end, they couldn't liive with the then Dublin team in the same year, granted Kerry failed to close out the game. These were the stalwarts of the 00's team, save for D O'Se and S Scanlon. I think the present Dublin squad is infinetly superior to their 2011 equivalent. I'll put it to you this way, who of the 2011 players below wouldn't make it into the current kerry team. If they couldn't live with them in 2011, why would it be different in 2016? kerry all Ireland team 2011 Brendan Kealy, Killian Young, Marc Ó Sé, Tom O'Sullivan, Tomas Ó Sé, Eoin Brosnan, Aidan O'Mahony, Anthony Maher, Bryan Sheehan, Darran O'Sullivan, Declan O'Sullivan, Donnchadh Walsh, Colm Cooper, Kieran Donaghy, Kieran O'Leary I'm not trying to detract from one the great teams to play the game, but I don't follow your logic. This is all conjecture so it is a case of we all have opinions here. My opinion is that if the 2011 final was played seven times then Dublin would win maybe once. Of course Dublin won it when it really mattered! However, to say that Kerry couldn't live with that Dublin team is revisionism of the highest order.
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Post by brucewayne on Jun 28, 2016 17:15:20 GMT
Poor fare in Croke Park this weekend. It looked like there was about 16 people watching the Kildare Westmeath game. Meath were appalling. There is a gap in quality alright but it's that Meath have gone away back altogether and Kildare with them. Westmeath are now the bone fide second best team in Leinster and they deserve to be because they bring so much more to the Leinster championship than either Meath or Kildare who look like they have no clue, desire or pride whatsoever.
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Post by jackeensabhog on Jun 28, 2016 17:41:48 GMT
History would indicate otherwise. The 2011 kerry team contained many great players at their peak and in the end, they couldn't liive with the then Dublin team in the same year, granted Kerry failed to close out the game. These were the stalwarts of the 00's team, save for D O'Se and S Scanlon. I think the present Dublin squad is infinetly superior to their 2011 equivalent. I'll put it to you this way, who of the 2011 players below wouldn't make it into the current kerry team. If they couldn't live with them in 2011, why would it be different in 2016? kerry all Ireland team 2011 Brendan Kealy, Killian Young, Marc Ó Sé, Tom O'Sullivan, Tomas Ó Sé, Eoin Brosnan, Aidan O'Mahony, Anthony Maher, Bryan Sheehan, Darran O'Sullivan, Declan O'Sullivan, Donnchadh Walsh, Colm Cooper, Kieran Donaghy, Kieran O'Leary I'm not trying to detract from one the great teams to play the game, but I don't follow your logic. This is all conjecture so it is a case of we all have opinions here. My opinion is that if the 2011 final was played seven times then Dublin would win maybe once. Of course Dublin won it when it really mattered! However, to say that Kerry couldn't live with that Dublin team is revisionism of the highest order. Agreed, this is all conjecture and we all have our biases. Maybe 'live with' is the wrong choice of words. But, I'm simply saying that if they couldn't beat them in 2011, why would they beat a far superior Dublin team in 2016.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 28, 2016 21:51:00 GMT
This is all conjecture so it is a case of we all have opinions here. My opinion is that if the 2011 final was played seven times then Dublin would win maybe once. Of course Dublin won it when it really mattered! However, to say that Kerry couldn't live with that Dublin team is revisionism of the highest order. Agreed, this is all conjecture and we all have our biases. Maybe 'live with' is the wrong choice of words. But, I'm simply saying that if they couldn't beat them in 2011, why would they beat a far superior Dublin team in 2016. Kerry could beat that Dublin team though. I have no idea about that team vs 2016. I do know I think we lost serious leadership when Darragh left and I would take our 2009 team against this Dublin team. ...but this is just a waste of digital ink...
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 28, 2016 22:45:00 GMT
Poor fare in Croke Park this weekend. It looked like there was about 16 people watching the Kildare Westmeath game. Meath were appalling. There is a gap in quality alright but it's that Meath have gone away back altogether and Kildare with them. Westmeath are now the bone fide second best team in Leinster and they deserve to be because they bring so much more to the Leinster championship than either Meath or Kildare who look like they have no clue, desire or pride whatsoever. Certainly are, have beaten both Meath and Kildare to reach two Leinster finals in a row. All the way from div 4, sums up Leinster football in a nutshell!
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 28, 2016 22:54:34 GMT
Or the current Kerry team isn't in the same ball park region as the Kerry team from the '00s might be more precise? The pick of the '00s crop would comfortably live with the current Dublin team who are at their peak right now. History would indicate otherwise. The 2011 kerry team contained many great players at their peak and in the end, they couldn't liive with the then Dublin team in the same year, granted Kerry failed to close out the game. These were the stalwarts of the 00's team, save for D O'Se and S Scanlon. I think the present Dublin squad is infinetly superior to their 2011 equivalent. I'll put it to you this way, who of the 2011 players below wouldn't make it into the current kerry team. If they couldn't live with them in 2011, why would it be different in 2016? kerry all Ireland team 2011 Brendan Kealy, Killian Young, Marc Ó Sé, Tom O'Sullivan, Tomas Ó Sé, Eoin Brosnan, Aidan O'Mahony, Anthony Maher, Bryan Sheehan, Darran O'Sullivan, Declan O'Sullivan, Donnchadh Walsh, Colm Cooper, Kieran Donaghy, Kieran O'Leary I'm not trying to detract from one the great teams to play the game, but I don't follow your logic. Kerry 2011 isn't representative of the the six in a row All-Ireland finalists and 8 from 10 era of the '00s, some great players missing from the 2011 version, O'Se, Moynihan, McCarty, Cenneide, Hassett, Kirby, Kennelly to mention a few. If you think Kerry didn't live with Dublin in the 2011 final then get back into your Aldi trolley. Marc and Tom shut down Connolly and Brogan with ease for example. The one thing that will distract from Dublin of the 10's is the lack of creditable challengers to their crown in the shape of Tyrone and Armagh in the 00's, Cork, Meath and Galway to a certain extent to Kerry's decade of phenomenal stats and accolades. Dublin have it soft at the moment by comparison!
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 28, 2016 23:10:38 GMT
I wouldnt subscribe to the notion that Kerry have ever won a soft one but to be fair and impartial about it, Dublin do have it soft enough at the moment.
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Post by buck02 on Jun 29, 2016 7:25:27 GMT
I wouldnt subscribe to the notion that Kerry have ever won a soft one but to be fair and impartial about it, Dublin do have it soft enough at the moment. The 3 finals Dublin have won in this decade, they won by 1 point, 1 point & 3 points. They dont exactly blow opponents away in finals. Take last years final, despite being a lot better than Kerry for 50 of the 70 minutes, Kerry were more or less a Killian Young slip away from winning the game.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 29, 2016 8:16:14 GMT
I wouldnt subscribe to the notion that Kerry have ever won a soft one but to be fair and impartial about it, Dublin do have it soft enough at the moment. What a load of bollocks.
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Post by onlykerry on Jun 29, 2016 8:38:43 GMT
One of my favourite passtimes is having a cut at the Dubs but even for me to say that the Dubs are getting it "soft" is a bridge too far. Unpalatable as it may be they have a very good team and are leading the pack at this point in time. Their biggest problem is complacency and they are winning by virtue of their ability. The state of Leinster football is pathetic and overall their is an identity crisis in football - the game has morphed into something that we can barely recognise. Root cause is we do not have a set of core values that constitute the game and we blindly tinker with the rules instead of amending them to ensure the core values are brought to the fore. By core values I refer to the skills of the game that we want to see in every game and which when executed well result in a worthy winner.
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Post by glengael on Jun 29, 2016 12:16:56 GMT
At least our neighbours have a decent chance to restart their summer v Limerick.
Kildare looked very poor v Westmeath. You would wonder if they will make it past Offaly at this stage.
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Post by jackeensabhog on Jun 29, 2016 12:36:24 GMT
History would indicate otherwise. The 2011 kerry team contained many great players at their peak and in the end, they couldn't liive with the then Dublin team in the same year, granted Kerry failed to close out the game. These were the stalwarts of the 00's team, save for D O'Se and S Scanlon. I think the present Dublin squad is infinetly superior to their 2011 equivalent. I'll put it to you this way, who of the 2011 players below wouldn't make it into the current kerry team. If they couldn't live with them in 2011, why would it be different in 2016? kerry all Ireland team 2011 Brendan Kealy, Killian Young, Marc Ó Sé, Tom O'Sullivan, Tomas Ó Sé, Eoin Brosnan, Aidan O'Mahony, Anthony Maher, Bryan Sheehan, Darran O'Sullivan, Declan O'Sullivan, Donnchadh Walsh, Colm Cooper, Kieran Donaghy, Kieran O'Leary I'm not trying to detract from one the great teams to play the game, but I don't follow your logic. Kerry 2011 isn't representative of the the six in a row All-Ireland finalists and 8 from 10 era of the '00s, some great players missing from the 2011 version, O'Se, Moynihan, McCarty, Cenneide, Hassett, Kirby, Kennelly to mention a few. If you think Kerry didn't live with Dublin in the 2011 final then get back into your Aldi trolley. Marc and Tom shut down Connolly and Brogan with ease for example. The one thing that will distract from Dublin of the 10's is the lack of creditable challengers to their crown in the shape of Tyrone and Armagh in the 00's, Cork, Meath and Galway to a certain extent to Kerry's decade of phenomenal stats and accolades. Dublin have it soft at the moment by comparison! The kerry 2011 has many of the stalwarts of the oo's and it represents the spine save maybe for D O'Se. Teams change year on year. kennelly only played one season, tommy walsh maybe two, so we're talking in generel here. As for shutting players down with ease, when it mattered, kerry fell away badly in the last 10 minutes i.e. during the championship minutes, with the exception of Donaghy's wonder point. During that period Brogan scored from play to put Dublin ahead and 2 kerry defenders couldn't get the ball off Connolly who ultimatly passed to Macmanamon who won the winning free. As for credible challengers in the present, there's usualy only a kick of a ball or a referee decision between the top teams come August-September. Its never been harder to win an all ireland. The fact is that four different counties have won all irelands since 2010. So far, its one of the most competitive decades. There's something soft alright, but its not the championship.
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Post by onlykerry on Jun 29, 2016 13:41:24 GMT
Jackeensblog comment that its a competitive decade are not totally true - the 1990's was the most open decade in the history of the competition with 8 different winners - only Meath and Down winning two each. Eleven differenct counties contested a final in that decade, the same as the 00's the difference being two sides Kerry (5) and Tyrone (3) dominated the victories. Interestingly the 1990's were was the only full decade since the competition began where no county won three or more - the trend is for each decade to have its champion(s) with 3-5 victories. Dublin with 6 victories in the 1890's leads for the number of victories in any decade.
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Post by jackeensabhog on Jun 29, 2016 13:49:31 GMT
Jackeensblog comment that its a competitive decade are not totally true - the 1990's was the most open decade in the history of the competition with 8 different winners - only Meath and Down winning two each. Eleven differenct counties contested a final in that decade, the same as the 00's the difference being two sides Kerry (5) and Tyrone (3) dominated the victories. Interestingly the 1990's were was the only full decade since the competition began where no county won three or more - the trend is for each decade to have its champion(s) with 3-5 victories. Dublin with 6 victories in the 1890's leads for the number of victories in any decade. Interesting stats, I wonder how many players on the 1890 Dublin team were actually indigenous? It was probably an all-ireland team in the literal sense. Remember, this decade is still half young, so still time for new records
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Post by onlykerry on Jun 29, 2016 13:58:59 GMT
Jackeensblog comment that its a competitive decade are not totally true - the 1990's was the most open decade in the history of the competition with 8 different winners - only Meath and Down winning two each. Eleven differenct counties contested a final in that decade, the same as the 00's the difference being two sides Kerry (5) and Tyrone (3) dominated the victories. Interestingly the 1990's were was the only full decade since the competition began where no county won three or more - the trend is for each decade to have its champion(s) with 3-5 victories. Dublin with 6 victories in the 1890's leads for the number of victories in any decade. Interesting stats, I wonder how many players on the 1890 Dublin team were actually indigenous? It was probably an all-ireland team in the literal sense. Remember, this decade is still half young, so still time for new records The competition was only getting going in the 1890's and as few as six counties took part in the competition in some of those years, so Dublin's dominance was not as dramatic as it may seem.
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 29, 2016 20:02:50 GMT
I wouldnt subscribe to the notion that Kerry have ever won a soft one but to be fair and impartial about it, Dublin do have it soft enough at the moment. What a load of bollocks. ["This is all conjecture so it is a case of we all have opinions here.
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Post by taggert on Jun 29, 2016 22:36:29 GMT
I see someone has just been hoist with his own petard.....
The riposte is awaited with bated breath.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 30, 2016 2:26:53 GMT
["This is all conjecture so it is a case of we all have opinions here. Don't expect a sharp riposte here. When you're bet you're bet. Ard fhear a MM in fairness.
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Post by taggert on Jun 30, 2016 10:39:45 GMT
Annascaul, fair play on that.
MM, its a chicken and egg thing:
Because they have superior players and a much deeper pool of those players, this has put a big gap betweem them and the chasing pack, so it can give a false impression of "soft" all irelands.
If on the other hand, they had less of these players and a smaller pool, they may just be squeezing past the chasing pack, giving the impression that they are winning "hard fought" All Irelands.
They simply have better quality players and more of them. Doing back-to-back will confirm this.
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Post by jackeensabhog on Jun 30, 2016 17:24:45 GMT
Annascaul, fair play on that. MM, its a chicken and egg thing: Because they have superior players and a much deeper pool of those players, this has put a big gap betweem them and the chasing pack, so it can give a false impression of "soft" all irelands. If on the other hand, they had less of these players and a smaller pool, they may just be squeezing past the chasing pack, giving the impression that they are winning "hard fought" All Irelands. They simply have better quality players and more of them. Doing back-to-back will confirm this. In truth, they have been "squeezing past the chasing pack" and not always as demonstrated in 2012 an 2014, albeit for different reasons. In recent years when Dublin have won, the semi and final were close affairs, at least on the score board which is where it matters. Moreover, there is a distinct possibility that they could get caught coming out of leinster in an 'under cooked' state, as so nearly happened against Mayo last year. In a championship format, I think odds are against Dublin doing back to backs in the modern game. If it was league format in played in summer, I'd be an awful lot more confident.
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Post by Mickmack on Jul 2, 2016 17:56:39 GMT
One of my favourite passtimes is having a cut at the Dubs but even for me to say that the Dubs are getting it "soft" is a bridge too far. Unpalatable as it may be they have a very good team and are leading the pack at this point in time. Their biggest problem is complacency and they are winning by virtue of their ability. The state of Leinster football is pathetic and overall their is an identity crisis in football - the game has morphed into something that we can barely recognise. Root cause is we do not have a set of core values that constitute the game and we blindly tinker with the rules instead of amending them to ensure the core values are brought to the fore.
By core values I refer to the skills of the game that we want to see in every game and which when executed well result in a worthy winner. I agree 100%. What other sports organisation would allow the short kickout to virtually remove high fielding from the kickout. Not alone that but the short kickout just increases the number of handpasses...the other blight on the game. In the 70s they removed the handpassed goal and no harm either. Time now to force all kickouts to travel beyond the 45 before a whole generation of kids comes along who do not have the high fielding skill. Its hard to to get away from the idea that the GAA doesnt care about anything as long as they can "add the halfpence to the pence"
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jul 3, 2016 21:26:37 GMT
Or the current Kerry team isn't in the same ball park region as the Kerry team from the '00s might be more precise? The pick of the '00s crop would comfortably live with the current Dublin team who are at their peak right now. History would indicate otherwise. The 2011 kerry team contained many great players at their peak and in the end, they couldn't liive with the then Dublin team in the same year, granted Kerry failed to close out the game. These were the stalwarts of the 00's team, save for D O'Se and S Scanlon. I think the present Dublin squad is infinetly superior to their 2011 equivalent. I'll put it to you this way, who of the 2011 players below wouldn't make it into the current kerry team. If they couldn't live with them in 2011, why would it be different in 2016? kerry all Ireland team 2011 Brendan Kealy, Killian Young, Marc Ó Sé, Tom O'Sullivan, Tomas Ó Sé, Eoin Brosnan, Aidan O'Mahony, Anthony Maher, Bryan Sheehan, Darran O'Sullivan, Declan O'Sullivan, Donnchadh Walsh, Colm Cooper, Kieran Donaghy, Kieran O'Leary I'm not trying to detract from one the great teams to play the game, but I don't follow your logic. Sorry but that's way off. The 2011 Kerry team was past it's best, the legs were starting to go on some players. A good few had been around at the top since about 2000-2004. Thats a long time on the road. Also I would wonder where you got the notion "couldn't live with" in 2011. They certainly did live with, they dominated the game for much of the 2nd half (albeit a lot of breaks went their way). The game was won by the much younger team with a pointed free from virtually the last kick of the game. So that's ridiculous revision to say "couldn't live with". I sometimes despair at the lazy soundbite dismissive comments that people come out with about sport. As for 2016, let's first talk about 2013. A Kerry team on it's last legs with a few new lads thrown in took Dublin to 70 minutes level. Since then we have lost Bryan Cullen, Al Brogan, Rory O'Carroll, Ger Brennan & Jack McCaffrey. We've also lost Barry Cahill, Eamonn Fennell & David Henry since 2011. Bernard Brogan, Denis Bastick & Stephen Cluxton are on their last legs, so it's not as simplistic as you make it seem.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jul 3, 2016 21:45:07 GMT
One of my favourite passtimes is having a cut at the Dubs but even for me to say that the Dubs are getting it "soft" is a bridge too far. Unpalatable as it may be they have a very good team and are leading the pack at this point in time. Their biggest problem is complacency and they are winning by virtue of their ability. The state of Leinster football is pathetic and overall their is an identity crisis in football - the game has morphed into something that we can barely recognise. Root cause is we do not have a set of core values that constitute the game and we blindly tinker with the rules instead of amending them to ensure the core values are brought to the fore.
By core values I refer to the skills of the game that we want to see in every game and which when executed well result in a worthy winner. I agree 100%. What other sports organisation would allow the short kickout to virtually remove high fielding from the kickout. Not alone that but the short kickout just increases the number of handpasses...the other blight on the game. In the 70s they removed the handpassed goal and no harm either. Time now to force all kickouts to travel beyond the 45 before a whole generation of kids comes along who do not have the high fielding skill. Its hard to to get away from the idea that the GAA doesnt care about anything as long as they can "add the halfpence to the pence" Sorry but I just can't agree with this. There's plenty of opportunity for high-fielding all around the pitch still in the modern game. Forwards still have to win their own ball at times, and the midfield option is still used at times. Teams have to have the full range in their repertoire. And as for the maligned short kickout, I think you have unjustly dismissed/ignored the skill & smarts involved in a really top quality distribution from the back. It's up to other teams to counterract, and those that push up then allow the game to take on a more interesting guise, as we have seen in some of the best games. The short kickouts etc are an answer & solution to teams that sit deep with sweepers or blanket, and also to fouling. First you need to talk about those issues.
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Jigz84
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,017
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Post by Jigz84 on Jul 4, 2016 9:17:29 GMT
Monaghan have been disappointing this year but they are limited enough. Donegal and Tyrone will be very interesting now. You could potentially have Mayo playing the losers of Donegal and Tyrone, and then the winners taking on Dublin in the Quarters.
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Post by Dermot on Jul 4, 2016 11:42:09 GMT
Donegal looking dangerous again ... Should be some match up but we wont score 5-18 thats for sure and if we let them score 2-17 we'll be stuffed. Unfortunately I cant see the game being as open and as un-cynical as the games we've had so far ... A very very hard hitting and crafty/cynical game awaits ... Saying all that, if we have any aspirations to win an AI in the near future we have to get the Donegal monkey off our backs .. and the sooner the better. I rather play them at HQ but I guess it will be Clones..
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Post by Dermot on Jul 4, 2016 11:50:27 GMT
I think we'll find out our true value in the Donegal match !!
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Post by veteran on Jul 4, 2016 12:30:14 GMT
Congratulations Dermot. I only saw the snatch on the Sunday Game but your team looked like the most likely to trouble Diblin and of course with Mickey still around you will not be lacking nous. I am not surprised because I was hugely impressed by Tyrone against Kerry in Croke Park last August. when this team was only in its formative stage. Of course , as you say, we will know more after the Ulster final.
If Tyrone keep progressing , not to mention if they win outright , it is going to be very embarrassing for RTE with no access to your camp. Of course , I do not think it is possible to embarrass that organisation. What is the feeling up there about this standoff?
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