Johnnyb
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Post by Johnnyb on Aug 3, 2010 9:40:47 GMT
Oh what a miserable day in Croke Park. Winning breaking ball and bursting out from defense are two massive facets of the modern game - the two best exponents of this in the country were sitting on the bench, sickening. That they largely have only themselves to blame compounds that sick feeling. The ref, of course, was terrible - they continue to be the leading lights of the only remining hint of amatuerism in the game. But that aside, I cant but feel that Tomas and Paul on the bench cost us the game. Agree 100% with you JohnyB. But we can't help covering over the cracks that are appearing in the team. Lets say Paul and Tomas were playing and we won we would not have realised the extent of the problems at hand. Our mid field needs a review and quick. This could well be a blesing in disguise for Kerry. This wake up call could drive Kerry on now again like back in 2001. Very true. Kerry 2011 could be a very different animal.
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Post by Attacking Wing Back on Aug 3, 2010 10:17:10 GMT
Haven't seen the game yet apart from live on Saturday and don't plan on watching it anytime soon to be honest. As others have said this team have given us fantastic entertainment over the years but it looks like Saturday was just a bridge too far.
We got off to a terrible start but I think for the first time that Jack O' Connor got his tactics completely wrong on the Kerry sideline. Bringing Sheehan out around the half forward like after 15 mins was never going to work. We all know he can't play there. When Pat O'Shea did this he was slaughtered. As well as not being able to play there his man was instrumental in setting up scores.
We knew all year we had a problem in midfield. And out only hope was to balloon the ball out to Quirke. Had we any kickout strategy at all in place? As well as that twice in quick succession in the first half Quirke was calling for the ball from the kickout. Aidan O' Mahony (being marked by Benny Coulter ) stood beside him. Instead of leaving Quirke one and one with his man Quirke was also jumping with benny Coulter. That said I thought O'Mahony played very well.
The substitution of Quirke was baffling. While he wasn't winning clean ball at east he was breaking it in the general direction of a Kerry man. I could live with the substitution if Maher came on. Dave moran came on. Looked pedestrian to put it kindly. He gave in 3 high balls to BJK when BJ was out in front of his man. I think Moran is not the player everyone thinks he is and serious questions now have to be asked about his place on the panel.
Anyway Jack decided to take off Quike and pitch Moran into midfield. Second half starts and we see the best full forward in the land out at midfield and David Moran at corner forward? Has Moran even played corner forward for the narries?
Tom O'Sullivan continued to bes roasted in the back but we persisted anyway. The when a change in the forwards was needed on comes Kieran O' Leary. No offence to the lad or anything but he is not inter county class. Jack dropped him off the panel last year. I watched him 3 times try to make a run for the ball. 3 times he couldn't break his markers tackle and was just cast aside like a rag doll even before he made his run.
Above all what was highlighted on Saturday is that their is a rather shallow pool of talent in Kerry. The players just weren't there to turn the game around. Kerry stopped producing backs and midfielders around 10 years ago.
The last kerry minors you saw that you would say would definitely make the kerry senior were gooch and declan o'sullivan. Even Darren O' Sullivan and Reidy in 04.
That was 6 years ago lads. Has anyone come from the minor ranks since and really staked a pace for inclusion on the seniors constantly? Only one man and he's below in Australia at the moment
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Post by popeye on Aug 3, 2010 10:30:27 GMT
Its fine to say what minor has staked a place for inclusion in the senior ranks. What chance has any of the quality minors over the last 6 years been given the answer is little chance if any in some cases. Tyrone always give the younger lads a shot even if it doesnt work out they stil try. Kerry don't do this and now its beginning to catch up with them
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Post by Attacking Wing Back on Aug 3, 2010 10:48:42 GMT
Faie enough popeye I take your point. I suppose its two sides of the same coin. If we had a really outstanding minor he might force his way into the team and get a shot. Conversely we are not going to drop a senior player for a young lad unless he has some serious potiental
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Post by popeye on Aug 3, 2010 10:56:43 GMT
i agree with you attacking wing back. good point. Could things have been planned better though? were facing a period now of rushing the young lads into becoming established seniors this is a hard process. Its a hard topic
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Post by misteallaigh abú on Aug 3, 2010 11:00:11 GMT
I am not so sure that midfield is such a crisis area, much of the ball was broken from the midfield area on saturday and it was up to the likes of Killian, Darran, Donncha and Mike Mac to drive into those breaks. This didn't happen, we can blame midfield and say it's all their fault, however, whilst midfield should by all means shoulder some of the blame, our half back line and half forward line failed to function on Saturday. In particular, our half forward line.
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Post by kerrygold on Aug 3, 2010 11:02:01 GMT
One point I'll say in support of David Moran, is that he has never been given an extended run in the kerry team, 8 to 10 games regardless of form etc. A game here and there is no good to a young player.
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Post by Attacking Wing Back on Aug 3, 2010 11:06:19 GMT
There was too much of a gap between our half forward and full forward line on sat. Most of the time the half forward line were nearly behind midfield. When out half backs picked up the ball the only option was to let it in long or hold it.
At one stage in the first half a high ball from under the cusack was played in. Donnachdha Walsh jumped for it and Declan O' Sullivan picked it up. Sheehan was floating around the centre back position and Darren was in the half forward line and marked. Declan gave it to Aidan O' Mahony and he sent a long raking ball down the middle to no one in particular. The two men that should be up there were behind him.
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Post by popeye on Aug 3, 2010 11:13:35 GMT
Whats the primary function of a mid field? to win the ball Whats the primary function of the centre back line? to defend Whats the primary function of a centre forward line?to attack
Its a chain reaction the mid field fails it puts pressure on the half back and half forward lines which in turn puts them under pressure to do there own jobs.
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Post by Attacking Wing Back on Aug 3, 2010 11:20:20 GMT
One point I'll say in support of David Moran, is that he has never been given an extended run in the kerry team, 8 to 10 games regardless of form etc. A game here and there is no good to a young player. Its all well and good to say give him an extended run of games. He's got a fair amount of league games over the last couple of years. And in his cameo appearances he hasn't done much to justify getting an extended run in the team. Take even Saturday even if he played a few simple passes etc people would say he did ok even. However he was giving terrible ball into the forwards. He also got a start in cork this year and didnt take it. Take BKJ as the opposite end of the spectrum. He came on in the league and played well. And in all the championship he played well and made an impression off the bench.
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Post by kerrygold on Aug 3, 2010 11:51:59 GMT
One point I'll say in support of David Moran, is that he has never been given an extended run in the kerry team, 8 to 10 games regardless of form etc. A game here and there is no good to a young player. Its all well and good to say give him an extended run of games. He's got a fair amount of league games over the last couple of years. And in his cameo appearances he hasn't done much to justify getting an extended run in the team. Take even Saturday even if he played a few simple passes etc people would say he did ok even. However he was giving terrible ball into the forwards. He also got a start in cork this year and didnt take it. Take BKJ as the opposite end of the spectrum. He came on in the league and played well. And in all the championship he played well and made an impression off the bench. Your missing the point I'm making ATWB as regards David, and your over analysing kerrys performance last saturday. Saturday was a collective melt down of the whole team for many different reasons.
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Post by Attacking Wing Back on Aug 3, 2010 11:59:30 GMT
I get what your saying. Play him no matter what and he might grow into the team/role. But at what stage do you actually begin to pick a team on form then? Are you only picking on supposed reputation then? Lets say you do give Moran an extended block of games next year, and say Maher / Quirke are flying in training but Moran is going to be partnered with Scanlon regardless of form. And these two lads form is better, you cant expect them to sit on the bench kicking their heels cause you think this lad might be a bit special
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animal
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Post by animal on Aug 3, 2010 12:00:44 GMT
David Moran has never had a decent run of consecutive games for Kerry, not even in the league due to injury and U21 commitments in the past.
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Post by stacksman on Aug 3, 2010 12:41:32 GMT
It's not David Moran when Maher got a shot he didin't take his chance he was poor against Cork and Limerick . Johnny Buckley has to get his shot now in the league and Gary O' Driscoll . Mike o' Donoghue shold have been there this year he has a chance to make the number 12 his Barry John Keane could be number 15 . If those guys step up you could have Darren O' Sullivan , Donnacha Walsh , Bryan Sheehan , Anthony maher , and Barry John Walsh coming off the bench we would have a strong panel again . Galvin , Declan , Stam , Cooper , Star , BJ Keane the first six . Buckley , Scanlon or Moran in midfield O' Driscoll and Quirke on the bench . If players like Padraig Reidy , Daniel Bohane , Adrian o' Connell , Aidan o' Shea , Padraig o' Connor can step up you could have Marc , Bohane, Reidy , O' Connor , Tomas , and Killian to start . O' Connell , A. O' Shea , Aidan o' Mahony , Lyne, Shanahan , Eamon Hickson , Eoin O' Neill, Aidan Cahill players to look at in the League David o' Callaghan , James O' Donoghue , and Paul Geaney other players to look at . The talent is there if the young lads produce we need a stronger bench for sure .
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Post by kerrygold on Aug 3, 2010 12:45:33 GMT
I get what your saying. Play him no matter what and he might grow into the team/role. But at what stage do you actually begin to pick a team on form then? Are you only picking on supposed reputation then? Lets say you do give Moran an extended block of games next year, and say Maher / Quirke are flying in training but Moran is going to be partnered with Scanlon regardless of form. And these two lads form is better, you cant expect them to sit on the bench kicking their heels cause you think this lad might be a bit special David needs every single game for kerry either at wing forward or midfield during the McGrath cup and National league for kerry in '11 regardless of form. In '08 he got no game time due to kerrys u21 run and last year injury and that low life Nixon whispering sweet nothings into his ear hasn't help his cause. Some times you have to take a risk with young talent. Sport is littered with people who step up to plate later in their careers.
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Post by kerrygold on Aug 3, 2010 12:48:34 GMT
Both kildare and Roscommon have made progress this year with young talent from their minor and u21 teams of the last few seasons.
Our attitute in kerry to the county junior team which could be used as a breeding ground for young fringe players leaves a lot to be desired.
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 3, 2010 12:58:18 GMT
Still too sore to properly analyse the game, but just wanted to say thanks to a great bunch of players who have given us so much joy down through the years, particularly the lads who have been there for a decade and more. They own me nothing and while I was very disappointed with the level of performance on Saturday, I'm sure the lads are far more disappointed. Winning back to back titles in the modern era was an unbelievable achievement and expecting to win another back to back and reach a seventh final in a row, with the losses we suffered, was, while not quite impossible, fairly improbable.
I remember the recriminations after the 2001 defeat to Meath and the doom and gloom around the county. Nobody in their wildest dreams would have expected the spoils that were to come our way over the next 9 years, so who knows whats around the corner.
All I can say is thank you lads, and chin up. We are Kerry after all.
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Johnnyb
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Post by Johnnyb on Aug 3, 2010 13:02:18 GMT
Any word on whether Jack will stay or not? Or is a bit early. I hope he stays - best coach in the country.
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Post by goalswingames on Aug 3, 2010 13:02:51 GMT
Only back on the forum after the weekend. I think it has all been said about the game, I was confident at half time however we didn't take our goal chances which ruined us. This is a game we could most definitely have won had the players and management been a bit cuter but unfortunately you can't win them all (unless you are Killkenny!)
Hopefully this is not the end, merely a new beginning. Gooch, Donaghy and Declan are still relatively young and a team can be built around them. David Moran needs to s**t or get off the pot at this stage. He has it all, as proved at underage and club level, he needs to get his head right and do it at the main stage.
Must say the Down fans were a pleasure and their team play nice football, Clarke and Coulter would remind u of Linden and McCarthan, I remember being in the old Croker in 91
Just a word on the Gooch. Its a shame for him that we lost as he was looking at footballer of the year in my opinion.
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 3, 2010 13:14:02 GMT
Any word on whether Jack will stay or not? Or is a bit early. I hope he stays - best coach in the country. Says he'll take time to think. I think he'll stay. Not his style to go out like that.
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Post by TheCritic on Aug 3, 2010 13:14:24 GMT
Hats off to the Kerry team! They have been amazing! Think it was just a bridge too far. Thanks for the memories guys, and sure there is always next year! The greatest thing about Championship! There is a lot of football left in the team. Gooch, you are a living legend! Agree he was on course for player of the year, although I think B Brogan is in pole position now! Paul Galvin is the key to any further Kerry success in the short term! The man wins ball, is a leader, can take scores a vital times and his distribution is top class! Ciarraí Abú!!!
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Johnnyb
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Post by Johnnyb on Aug 3, 2010 13:35:53 GMT
Any word on whether Jack will stay or not? Or is a bit early. I hope he stays - best coach in the country. Says he'll take time to think. I think he'll stay. Not his style to go out like that. Sound - hopefully he gives it another few years.
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Post by goalswingames on Aug 3, 2010 13:40:00 GMT
Says he'll take time to think. I think he'll stay. Not his style to go out like that. Sound - hopefully he gives it another few years. Has he more reasons to stay, or to go? It could be a lenghty re-building process.
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Post by veteran on Aug 3, 2010 13:45:31 GMT
One member says we have "an unreal pool of talent at our disposal". Where is the evidence to support that assertion? How come we were unable to draw from that pool last Saturday when a couple of our backs were struggling badly, when the injured Declan was crippled in the first five or ten minutes and need I mention the midfield scramble?
The big problem we will have next year is not in our forward line, not even at midfield, where I believe we will be able to cobble together a satisfactory pairing, but in our back line. This back line problem has been brewing for a while. We were blessed last year when our best practitioners in that area emerged injury and suspension free. The loss of form of Aiden, the suspension of Tomas and injury to Daniel Bohane ensured that we were walking on thin ice this year. Our substitute bench the last day for the back line was Daniel Bohane, Adrian O'Connell, Jonathan Lyne and Brendan Guiney. Any time I have seen Daniel he has played well but, sadly, it would appear ,on the evidence so far ,the poor man is so injury prone that it would be advisable to plan without him and hope he may play some minor role. Jonathan Lyne? I have not seen enough of him but I did see all the u21 games and he was no more than adequate in that grade. Is he ready to step up next year? Perhaps, some people who are more familiar with him might answer that. Brendan Guiney? Brendan is a tough customer, a formidable opponent at club level but, at county level, is in the domestique category. Perhaps, a panelist but no more than that. Adrian O'Connell? Again, looked just about alright the few times I have seen him play for Kerry. Not convinced. Is he a corner back or a wing back? Now Padraig Reidy is missing from this list. I have been an admirer of Padraig but I thought he would have nailed down his position by now. Nevertheless, he has to be one genuine contender for next year and ,of course, the foregoing is written with 2011 in mind. Next year is always the year that matters in Kerry.
The need for new defenders next year? Urgent! Needless to say players will take their time about departing but of course the decision is not entirely theirs. Footballers have to be picked on merit and not on service given. Some players find it difficult to walk away and in that case they have to be advised that a place on the Kerry team is not a job for life. On the evidence of this year, at least three stalwart defenders have given their last ounce. If that transpires to be the case, the task of rebuilding the back line is monumental. Somebody might say, if these three stalwarts are willing to stay on and are better than anybody else available, then should they be selected? That would be fool's paradise stuff. In that scene I say, invest for the future with new faces however inadequate those faces may be and however long it takes.
I have tried to disprove the theory that "we have an unreal pool of talent", as it pertains to the back line at least. Perhaps, other people can think of replacement defenders who were not included in last Saturday's panel. If so, I would be delighted to hear from them. Of course, they should not merely furnish a list of names but should supply evidence as to why they feel a particular defender would make the grade. Now, somebody might say how do we know a player would make the grade or not unless he is tried. Well, at the very least he should have displayed satisfactory, consistent form at some intercounty grade and club level.
It would be a shame if we cannot construct a water proof back line to supplement the efforts of Paul, Declan, Colm and KD. These latter four cannot go on forever.
As I said, I feel a potential crisis is looming in our back line in the immediate future but a greater crisis faces us as a whole if Jack and friends do not stay on. That is the first issue that needs to be addressed. In my opinion, there is nobody in the county that comes near his range of expertise.
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Johnnyb
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Post by Johnnyb on Aug 3, 2010 13:49:23 GMT
Sound - hopefully he gives it another few years. Has he more reasons to stay, or to go? It could be a lenghty re-building process. Hard to know - it all depends on Jack having the stomach for the long haul, if thats whats needed.
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Post by goalswingames on Aug 3, 2010 13:53:36 GMT
Has he more reasons to stay, or to go? It could be a lenghty re-building process. Hard to know - it all depends on Jack having the stomach for the long haul, if thats whats needed. Lets hope he does. Not many outstanding candidates in the county. With Jack and his team there we will be back soon. Upheaval at this point could be disasterous
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Johnnyb
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Post by Johnnyb on Aug 3, 2010 13:54:29 GMT
One member says we have "an unreal pool of talent at our disposal". Where is the evidence to support that assertion? How come we were unable to draw from that pool last Saturday when a couple of our backs were struggling badly, when the injured Declan was crippled in the first five or ten minutes and need I mention the midfield scramble? The big problem we will have next year is not in our forward line, not even at midfield, where I believe we will be able to cobble together a satisfactory pairing, but in our back line. This back line problem has been brewing for a while. We were blessed last year when our best practitioners in that area emerged injury and suspension free. The loss of form of Aiden, the suspension of Tomas and injury to Daniel Bohane ensured that we were walking on thin ice this year. Our substitute bench the last day for the back line was Daniel Bohane, Adrian O'Connell, Jonathan Lyne and Brendan Guiney. Any time I have seen Daniel he has played well but, sadly, it would appear ,on the evidence so far ,the poor man is so injury prone that it would be advisable to plan without him and hope he may play some minor role. Jonathan Lyne? I have not seen enough of him but I did see all the u21 games and he was no more than adequate in that grade. Is he ready to step up next year? Perhaps, some people who are more familiar with him might answer that. Brendan Guiney? Brendan is a tough customer, a formidable opponent at club level but, at county level, is in the domestique category. Perhaps, a panelist but no more than that. Adrian O'Connell? Again, looked just about alright the few times I have seen him play for Kerry. Not convinced. Is he a corner back or a wing back? Now Padraig Reidy is missing from this list. I have been an admirer of Padraig but I thought he would have nailed down his position by now. Nevertheless, he has to be one genuine contender for next year and ,of course, the foregoing is written with 2011 in mind. Next year is always the year that matters in Kerry. The need for new defenders next year? Urgent! Needless to say players will take their time about departing but of course the decision is not entirely theirs. Footballers have to be picked on merit and not on service given. Some players find it difficult to walk away and in that case they have to be advised that a place on the Kerry team is not a job for life. On the evidence of this year, at least three stalwart defenders have given their last ounce. If that transpires to be the case, the task of rebuilding the back line is monumental. Somebody might say, if these three stalwarts are willing to stay on and are better than anybody else available, then should they be selected? That would be fool's paradise stuff. In that scene I say, invest for the future with new faces however inadequate those faces may be and however long it takes. I have tried to disprove the theory that "we have an unreal pool of talent", as it pertains to the back line at least. Perhaps, other people can think of replacement defenders who were not included in last Saturday's panel. If so, I would be delighted to hear from them. Of course, they should not merely furnish a list of names but should supply evidence as to why they feel a particular defender would make the grade. Now, somebody might say how do we know a player would make the grade or not unless he is tried. Well, at the very least he should have displayed satisfactory, consistent form at some intercounty grade and club level. It would be a shame if we cannot construct a water proof back line to supplement the efforts of Paul, Declan, Colm and KD. These latter four cannot go on forever. As I said, I feel a potential crisis is looming in our back line in the immediate future but a greater crisis faces us as a whole if Jack and friends do not stay on. That is the first issue that needs to be addressed. In my opinion, there is nobody in the county that comes near his range of expertise. Hard to disagree with any of that.
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Johnnyb
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Post by Johnnyb on Aug 3, 2010 13:56:55 GMT
Hard to know - it all depends on Jack having the stomach for the long haul, if thats whats needed. Lets hope he does. Not many outstanding candidates in the county. With Jack and his team there we will be back soon. Upheaval at this point could be disasterous Not a single one - and any talk of Micko coming back is nonsense really.
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Post by goalswingames on Aug 3, 2010 14:00:20 GMT
Any time I have seen Daniel he has played well but, sadly, it would appear ,on the evidence so far ,the poor man is so injury prone that it would be advisable to plan without him and hope he may play some minor role. . He came on at full back and fielded a ball above his head with extreme confidence, something that hadn't happened all day. Jack then gave him a 15 minute run at wing back. How injured can he be? Tommy Griffin suffered the same problem a few years ago and Jack told him to leave the physio table behind and cut into it, (it being Darragh in training!). Maybe he needs to adopt a similar aproach with Daniel Bohane.
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Post by buck02 on Aug 3, 2010 14:13:51 GMT
I havnt had the chance to read through what has been said here since Saturday. But I presume at this stage its all been said.
Unfortunately we had an off day. Theres no second chance at 1/4 final stage, we knew that all along so theres no point moaning about provencial winners getting no second chance.
The options to change the game werent there and just too many players played well below themselves on the day. When that happens theres usually only one result. Down wasted very little and crucial calls went there way at crucial times of the game.
As I'm sure many have said here this group of players deserve a break. A few weeks in August and September where they can relax and let off a bit of steam.
If they decide to return to the fold next year it'll be great news. If they dont then nobody can complain given the service they have given to the jersey, some spanning three decades.
Lets look forward now to the county championship being played out when the ground is hard and guys who have been on the go non stop for 7 years might even get November and December to put up their feet.
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