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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 19, 2020 17:44:39 GMT
I have watched game again, we didnt have enough scoring options. We started with 2 lads inside in Brosnan & Clifford with both dropping back inside their own half for large chunks of the game and when we had the chance to change things up bringing on Spillane we decided to take off Brosnan & make a like for like change rather than increasing our attacking options. Playing with 2 real threats from play was fairly pathetic to be honest. 1-8? What was the goal chance? The time where we had a wing back in near their goal? Imagine if it had been a forward? Forwards like Clifford come around maybe once or twice in your lifetime. Having him back defending in his own half is a crime against football; it's bringing the game into disrepute. Imagine Mikey Sheehy being asked to do that. Or Maurice. They'd have laughed at you. I completely agree but I still think that the most galling part was the inability to change tactics when that approach clearly wasn’t working. It either showed an inability to see the problem or that they saw the problem and just didn’t know how to change it. To be honest either would signal the end of the road for me
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 19, 2020 19:45:53 GMT
Because Cork won the game, they have avoided critical analysis of their performance. I can’t understand, for instance, why they left their best scoring forward, Connolly, on the bench for so long. Had Kerry won by a point, there would have been calls for heads. He is some striker of a dead ball too. I wonder did he get injured in the warm up.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 19, 2020 20:11:36 GMT
Who are the managers (either code) who are seen as great tacticians AND greater readers of a game?
Not sure why but Cody comes to mind.
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Post by greengold35 on Nov 19, 2020 20:58:55 GMT
Forwards like Clifford come around maybe once or twice in your lifetime. Having him back defending in his own half is a crime against football; it's bringing the game into disrepute. Imagine Mikey Sheehy being asked to do that. Or Maurice. They'd have laughed at you. I completely agree but I still think that the most galling part was the inability to change tactics when that approach clearly wasn’t working. It either showed an inability to see the problem or that they saw the problem and just didn’t know how to change it. To be honest either would signal the end of the road for me We took a minor management team & entrusted them with the fortunes of our senior team - the need for experience at senior level was recognised with a recommendation that Donie Buckley be on the ticket as coach /selector - Buckley’s experience in working at senior inter county was seen as a must by Tim Murphy & he was onboard. Buckley worked very closely with the players not just as a group but a lot of 1:1s all of which contributed to our success last year. He invariably sat in the stands with Maurice Fitz miked up with one of the other 3 on the sideline to provide analysis/ overview. Peter Keane had club experience with Legion, James Foley Kilcummin, Tommy G Dingle (?), Maurice Fitz St Marys- we needed experience badly, a dissenting voice at the table whether that was Buckley or somebody else; the white heat of championship football was not the place to be learning and , in my opinion, cannot be equated with minor management successes. In game management requires cool, cold analysis - so too does swift decisions as he who hesitates is lost - the management team we ended up with this year failed when the pressure was on & county board need to review this at year end & rectify if we hope to be contenders next year & thereafter.
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 19, 2020 21:53:48 GMT
Who are the managers (either code) who are seen as great tacticians AND greater readers of a game? Not sure why but Cody comes to mind. Cody looked very sharp indeed when he had a team for the ages but he looked clueless when Richie Hogan got sent off last year. Cody and Mickey Harte tend to send out teams who always seemed to perform and play to the limits of their abilities. That's great man management. The same can be said for Mick O'Dwyer. But you ask a different question; who are great tacticians AND greater readers of a game. You ask a great question. Time to ponder it.
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Post by Galway breeze on Nov 19, 2020 22:19:56 GMT
Donie Buckley achievements Never played at inter county Joint manager Clare 2006 -nothing Selector with Galway 2007- nothing Selector with Limerick- nothing Selector with Kerry 2012- nothing Mayo 5 years - nothing not even Connaught (open to Correction) Kerry 2019 - Munster That’s not a very impressive cv in a coaching world. chairperson involved with senior teams at inter county level?
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 19, 2020 22:28:01 GMT
Who are the managers (either code) who are seen as great tacticians AND greater readers of a game? Not sure why but Cody comes to mind. Cody looked very sharp indeed when he had a team for the ages but he looked clueless when Richie Hogan got sent off last year. Cody and Mickey Harte tend to send out teams who always seemed to perform and play to the limits of their abilities. That's great man management. The same can be said for Mick O'Dwyer. But you ask a different question; who are great tacticians AND greater readers of a game. You ask a great question. Time to ponder it. Yes I included not sure about Cody. A starter and hard question might be what managers are good readers of the game, able to make changes within the 70. A very difficult skill for various reasons. I am drawing a blank.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 19, 2020 22:35:15 GMT
Donie Buckley achievements Never played at inter county Joint manager Clare 2006 -nothing Selector with Galway 2007- nothing Selector with Limerick- nothing Selector with Kerry 2012- nothing Mayo 5 years - nothing not even Connaught (open to Correction) Kerry 2019 - Munster That’s not a very impressive cv in a coaching world. chairperson involved with senior teams at inter county level? Mayo did win Connacht. I thought Buckley was a defensive coach at the time and Mayo were good along those times. Buckley could not have been a panacea but presumably when players are happy... I don't know.
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Post by Attacking Wing Back on Nov 20, 2020 0:38:27 GMT
Donie Buckley achievements Never played at inter county Joint manager Clare 2006 -nothing Selector with Galway 2007- nothing Selector with Limerick- nothing Selector with Kerry 2012- nothing Mayo 5 years - nothing not even Connaught (open to Correction) Kerry 2019 - Munster That’s not a very impressive cv in a coaching world. chairperson involved with senior teams at inter county level? Mayo did win Connacht. I thought Buckley was a defensive coach at the time and Mayo were good along those times. Buckley could not have been a panacea but presumably when players are happy... I don't know. I heard from a long way out last year that Buckley was not happy with his role in the team and he was being more or less sidelined. As for what players say...they are never going to come out and say otherwise. If the county board thought the managment team they appointed wasn't strong enough that they had to more or less impose Donie Buckley on the team then they should not have appointed them. Looking around there is no real alternatives to whats in place either.
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Post by buck02 on Nov 20, 2020 10:22:02 GMT
Donie Buckley achievements Never played at inter county Joint manager Clare 2006 -nothing Selector with Galway 2007- nothing Selector with Limerick- nothing Selector with Kerry 2012- nothing Mayo 5 years - nothing not even Connaught (open to Correction) Kerry 2019 - Munster That’s not a very impressive cv in a coaching world. chairperson involved with senior teams at inter county level? Mayo did win Connacht. I thought Buckley was a defensive coach at the time and Mayo were good along those times. Buckley could not have been a panacea but presumably when players are happy... I don't know. He is not a "defensive" coach. Yes he works a lot on tackling and contact as could be seen from Mayo - their forwards were probably the best at forcing turnovers during his time there. But he is not just a 'defensive' coach - what I have heard he would analyse specific opponents for weaknesses and build coaching sessions around exposing these. We all heard the stories after the replay last year that Donie was more or less sidelined when it came to the tactics for the replay. I thought he was treated poorly and unfortunately the chickens were always going to come home to roost for PK if we didn't win the All Ireland this year.
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 20, 2020 10:41:12 GMT
If the stories buck02 heard are true then it is depressing alright. The inference is the approach to the replay did not meet with Donie Buckleys agreement.
Kerrys approach to the replay was very different. Lamping high balls forward at the start was a big change and Dublin got 4 points i think from giving away possession so wastefully.
I thought that Kerry were very good tactically in the drawn game apart from an inability to close it out when a point up. (Exact same thing happened v Cork of course). Kerry left a rake of scores after them the first day and an improvement in efficiency upfront was the main thing to improve on.
I thought the Kerry v Donegal game last year was a brilliant game between two highly tactical teams.
Kerry definitely seem to have gone backwards in 2020
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2020 13:54:39 GMT
Amazing how people know that donie was responsible for everything up until the replay.
Real team player.
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Post by thepeoplesrepublic on Nov 20, 2020 18:08:06 GMT
Very interesting conversation between Bernard Brogan and Tadhg Kennelly speaking about Cork v Kerry, his Listowel roots and Tadhg’s year in 2009. Great listen.
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Post by Galway breeze on Nov 20, 2020 20:20:02 GMT
Donie Buckley is the fall guy when thing go wrong and the hero when things are going well. There’s not too many managers to replace PK, he should get another two years to prove himself as this year was a washout by Covid-19.
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Post by royalkerryfan on Nov 20, 2020 22:48:11 GMT
Amazing how people know that donie was responsible for everything up until the replay. Real team player. Not 1 player in either Mayo or Kerry has a bad word to say about the man. What those that tell you?
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Post by piggott on Nov 21, 2020 0:21:24 GMT
He deserved more than what he got last March. Looked a forlorn figure above in Castlebar.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2020 7:15:44 GMT
Amazing how people know that donie was responsible for everything up until the replay. Real team player. Not 1 player in either Mayo or Kerry has a bad word to say about the man. What those that tell you? Not much Players generally don’t say bad things about any manager or coach
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Post by Ballyfireside on Nov 21, 2020 10:01:52 GMT
PK's summary on the AI final replay 2019 as I recall was that we didn't convert enough of the opportunities we created into scores, i.e. forwards. Donie was primarily a defense coach but I'd be surprised if some of that skill didn't transfer up to midfield and attack, if only because if you can show a defender how to blank out an attacker then you are well placed to coach an attacker on how to deal with his defender marker.
I suppose we know so little fact it is hard to pinpoint where things are and while that may be surprising in an era of so much info, the opposite is the case, i.e. secrets must be kept tighter because if one 'wrong' person knows then the opponents know. Donie keeps himself to himself and while the vibes favour him, who knows? Maybe it was one of those things, people often clash for no apparent or indeed reason of ill-intent.
My own view was that Kerry is very advanced in these things so it must have been pretty serious. Jason Foley was outed only to be reintroduced vs Mayo in League 2019 when it was realised he was missed, i.e. he was better than those who replaced him. Was he also 'missing' earlier this year? Ah sure we're only guessing and fellas will have to make their few bob when the publish their book.
Ballythefireside quote of the day à la John B - There might be a book in everyone but not all books should be written - should they be bought, should they be read, should they be burned?
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Post by clarinman on Nov 21, 2020 17:24:29 GMT
Last year we were 4 points down in the semi-final against Tyrone. Changed tactics at half time and won by 3. Tactics were also spot on in super 8 game against Mayo. Now suddenly the management is doing everything wrong. I think some posters are being a touch hard on Peter Keane.
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pillar
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Post by pillar on Nov 21, 2020 19:08:57 GMT
6mins 29secs gone in Leinster Final.and Dublin have 15 in their own half defending. Tut Tut,wouldn't get away with that down here
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 21, 2020 19:29:13 GMT
6mins 29secs gone in Leinster Final.and Dublin have 15 in their own half defending. Tut Tut,wouldn't get away with that down here If this is what defending Keane is reduced to then all I can say is that it’s pitiful. Dublin will absolutely hockey a div 1 team here and we were knocked out by a div 3 team. The fact that you are still trying to defend it is baffling to be honest, but ok keep hitting us with the one liners
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pillar
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Post by pillar on Nov 21, 2020 19:43:45 GMT
6mins 29secs gone in Leinster Final.and Dublin have 15 in their own half defending. Tut Tut,wouldn't get away with that down here If this is what defending Keane is reduced to then all I can say is that it’s pitiful. Dublin will absolutely hockey a div 1 team here and we were knocked out by a div 3 team. The fact that you are still trying to defend it is baffling to be honest, but ok keep hitting us with the one liners Modern gaelic football now is all about everyone defends when they haven't the ball and everyone attacks when you have the ball..Dubs have the best players who play the system better than everyone.This will be my last time banging my head against the wall making the point.Had we been as clinical as Dublin tonight wed have been 7-9 points up on Cork at full time.Your blindspot to the missed chances/conversation rate to continue maligning the system means your missing the point im trying to make!!
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 21, 2020 19:47:52 GMT
If this is what defending Keane is reduced to then all I can say is that it’s pitiful. Dublin will absolutely hockey a div 1 team here and we were knocked out by a div 3 team. The fact that you are still trying to defend it is baffling to be honest, but ok keep hitting us with the one liners Modern gaelic football now is all about everyone defends when they haven't the ball and everyone attacks when you have the ball..Dubs have the best players who play the system better than everyone.This will be my last time banging my head against the wall making the point.Had we been as clinical as Dublin tonight wed have been 7-9 points up on Cork at full time.Your blindspot to the missed chances/conversation rate to continue maligning the system means your missing the point im trying to make!! Cork missed chances too and we started with 2 forwards who might score. You have to allow for at least one of your scorers to have an off day & that’s why most teams will pick 4 scoring threats to start & more to come off the bench. We didn’t pick the right team to start, have an adequate bench, have a coherent gameplan & worst of all, our management showed an inability to change it. You could say, without any hint of exaggeration, that they got everything wrong that they could get wrong. If I was that bad at my job then I’d be shown the door
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pillar
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Post by pillar on Nov 21, 2020 19:52:57 GMT
Modern gaelic football now is all about everyone defends when they haven't the ball and everyone attacks when you have the ball..Dubs have the best players who play the system better than everyone.This will be my last time banging my head against the wall making the point.Had we been as clinical as Dublin tonight wed have been 7-9 points up on Cork at full time.Your blindspot to the missed chances/conversation rate to continue maligning the system means your missing the point im trying to make!! Cork missed chances too and we started with 2 forwards who might score. You have to allow for at least one of your scorers to have an off day & that’s why most teams will pick 4 scoring threats to start & more to come off the bench. We didn’t pick the right team to start, have an adequate bench, have a coherent gameplan & worst of all, our management showed an inability to change it. You could say, without any hint of exaggeration, that they got everything wrong that they could get wrong. If I was that bad at my job then I’d be shown the door When this game is over come back with how many attacks Dublin had/shots taken/shots scored and compare and contrast Kerrys and Cork rates...for the record Kerry had 42 attacks/32 shots/13 scores,Cork had 19 shots/13 scores..McStay mentioned earlier Dublin had 13 shots and 8 scores!!
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Post by taggert on Nov 21, 2020 19:53:32 GMT
6mins 29secs gone in Leinster Final.and Dublin have 15 in their own half defending. Tut Tut,wouldn't get away with that down here If this is what defending Keane is reduced to then all I can say is that it’s pitiful. Dublin will absolutely hockey a div 1 team here and we were knocked out by a div 3 team. The fact that you are still trying to defend it is baffling to be honest, but ok keep hitting us with the one liners Dublin defend as a team and attack as a team and are brilliant at it. Paddy Small (# 13) dispossessed a Meath attacker near the Dublin defensive end line, a turnover which Dublin scored from. The days of leaving forwards standing with hands on hips hoping their defender wins his 1 on 1 duel, went out with the tide. No team with All Ireland winning aspiratiins plats in this manner. Dublins conversion rate is brilliant, ours is horrible. On the most horrible of winterish evenings, we had 30 efforts on the Cork goal - 30 - scoring 13 and butchering at least 8 tap overs by the standard of player we have. The rain was not a help in that conversion rate - one would accept a drop off in that regard. The selflessness, the team ethic and the decision making by Dublin ON THE PITCH make us look distinctly amateurish in comparison. When the Kerry teams leaders, like Moran, are on the hail Mary carousel, it sets a woeful example. When our attacking totem, Clifford, is taking extremely low percentage potshots for a goal (even for a man of his mercurial talent), missing 14 and 21 yard frees and failing to stop when he got a mark in front of goal, you can see why our conversion rate is so poor. The players set the performance standard, the baseline and when our leaders let that standard drop repeatedly, chaos and poor performance ensues.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2020 19:56:03 GMT
Modern gaelic football now is all about everyone defends when they haven't the ball and everyone attacks when you have the ball..Dubs have the best players who play the system better than everyone.This will be my last time banging my head against the wall making the point.Had we been as clinical as Dublin tonight wed have been 7-9 points up on Cork at full time.Your blindspot to the missed chances/conversation rate to continue maligning the system means your missing the point im trying to make!! Cork missed chances too and we started with 2 forwards who might score. You have to allow for at least one of your scorers to have an off day & that’s why most teams will pick 4 scoring threats to start & more to come off the bench. We didn’t pick the right team to start, have an adequate bench, have a coherent gameplan & worst of all, our management showed an inability to change it. You could say, without any hint of exaggeration, that they got everything wrong that they could get wrong. If I was that bad at my job then I’d be shown the door Not disagreeing with you massively here but it has been a long time since Kerry picked 4 scorers to start especially if you don’t regard Seanie as one
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Post by taggert on Nov 21, 2020 19:56:43 GMT
If this is what defending Keane is reduced to then all I can say is that it’s pitiful. Dublin will absolutely hockey a div 1 team here and we were knocked out by a div 3 team. The fact that you are still trying to defend it is baffling to be honest, but ok keep hitting us with the one liners Modern gaelic football now is all about everyone defends when they haven't the ball and everyone attacks when you have the ball..Dubs have the best players who play the system better than everyone.This will be my last time banging my head against the wall making the point.Had we been as clinical as Dublin tonight wed have been 7-9 points up on Cork at full time.Your blindspot to the missed chances/conversation rate to continue maligning the system means your missing the point im trying to make!! You are hitting the nail on the head for me, the same point I made after the final whistle. One also made by DoSe in the paper.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 21, 2020 20:16:39 GMT
If this is what defending Keane is reduced to then all I can say is that it’s pitiful. Dublin will absolutely hockey a div 1 team here and we were knocked out by a div 3 team. The fact that you are still trying to defend it is baffling to be honest, but ok keep hitting us with the one liners Dublin defend as a team and attack as a team and are brilliant at it. Paddy Small (# 13) dispossessed a Meath attacker near the Dublin defensive end line, a turnover which Dublin scored from. The days of leaving forwards standing with hands on hips hoping their defender wins his 1 on 1 duel, went out with the tide. No team with All Ireland winning aspiratiins plats in this manner. Dublins conversion rate is brilliant, ours is horrible. On the most horrible of winterish evenings, we had 30 efforts on the Cork goal - 30 - scoring 13 and butchering at least 8 tap overs by the standard of player we have. The rain was not a help in that conversion rate - one would accept a drop off in that regard. The selflessness, the team ethic and the decision making by Dublin ON THE PITCH make us look distinctly amateurish in comparison. When the Kerry teams leaders, like Moran, are on the hail Mary carousel, it sets a woeful example. When our attacking totem, Clifford, is taking extremely low percentage potshots for a goal (even for a man of his mercurial talent), missing 14 and 21 yard frees and failing to stop when he got a mark in front of goal, you can see why our conversion rate is so poor. The players set the performance standard, the baseline and when our leaders let that standard drop repeatedly, chaos and poor performance ensues. No one is advocating leaving 6 players in the opposition half with no licence to track but having 15 men behind the ball for large chunks of the game is easily as idiotic. We started with an extremely flawed approach, it clearly wasn’t working and yet we didn’t change it. That’s not just bad management, it’s horrendous management.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 21, 2020 20:18:27 GMT
Cork missed chances too and we started with 2 forwards who might score. You have to allow for at least one of your scorers to have an off day & that’s why most teams will pick 4 scoring threats to start & more to come off the bench. We didn’t pick the right team to start, have an adequate bench, have a coherent gameplan & worst of all, our management showed an inability to change it. You could say, without any hint of exaggeration, that they got everything wrong that they could get wrong. If I was that bad at my job then I’d be shown the door When this game is over come back with how many attacks Dublin had/shots taken/shots scored and compare and contrast Kerrys and Cork rates...for the record Kerry had 42 attacks/32 shots/13 scores,Cork had 19 shots/13 scores..McStay mentioned earlier Dublin had 13 shots and 8 scores!! How many scorers have Dublin started with, how many are on their bench and where are the shooters receiving the ball. Stats need context
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 21, 2020 20:21:53 GMT
Modern gaelic football now is all about everyone defends when they haven't the ball and everyone attacks when you have the ball..Dubs have the best players who play the system better than everyone.This will be my last time banging my head against the wall making the point.Had we been as clinical as Dublin tonight wed have been 7-9 points up on Cork at full time.Your blindspot to the missed chances/conversation rate to continue maligning the system means your missing the point im trying to make!! You are hitting the nail on the head for me, the same point I made after the final whistle. One also made by DoSe in the paper. Everyone knows that are set up to function as one, relatively, homogenous unit but the existence of scorers & a clear attacking plan is needed in order to be a successful team. We looked like Fermanagh or one of those other poor teams who tried to copy an ultra defensive gameplan about 10 years ago. Darragh was a superb player but his management record was quite poor so I’m not sure whether I’d hang on his opinion
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