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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 14:45:50 GMT
The article from Tomas is all over the place. He is angry and upset is my main takeaway from it.
Kerry last year regularly played with only four forwards so I don’t see last Sunday’s team selection as that surprising really. The defence has been highlighted as a weakness for the past few years. Keane clearly is trying to build a team to protect this.
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 15, 2020 15:34:31 GMT
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Gaelic Football
Premium
Rebel ambush underlines extent of Kingdom woe
Eamonn Sweeney
November 09 2020 02:30 AM
Bang and the Kingdom are gone. In this season of War of Independence commemorations what could be more appropriate than a traditional Cork ambush? It might have been less bloody than Kilmichael or Crossbarry but the Green and Gold ended up as shell-shocked as the Black and Tans.
There was a lot of talk in the championship run-up about the potential impact of one returnee from Australian Rules. Another man from Down Under went almost entirely unheralded.
But while Conor McKenna failed to live up to the hype, Mark Keane has just had a seismic effect on this year's Championship. He's also written his name in the history books alongside Séamus Darby and Tadhg Murphy.
This was not only Cork's first Championship win over Kerry in eight years but also a day of redemption, a shout of defiance and a proclamation of resurrection. It hasn't been easy to be a Rebel footballer as humiliation piled on humiliation. A 12-point Munster final defeat by Kerry in 2014 was Cork's worst in 37 years. The margin was 11 points three years later and 17 in 2018.
A semi-final defeat by Tipp in 2016 and League defeats by Clare in 2017 and 2019 suggested Cork were much closer to losing second-banana status in Munster than challenging for the top spot.
Rock bottom was reached last year with relegation to Division 3 bringing the possibility that Cork might be relegated to the second tier of a new-look Championship.
Cork players heard ill-informed outsiders confidently declaring that no one in their county cared about football anyway. They were lampooned as the game's ultimate underachievers.
Progress to last year's Super 8s constituted a recovery of sorts but the home team were given about as much chance of winning yesterday as their goalkeeper's father is of winning an overall majority at the next General Election.
The focus was on what Kerry's inevitable victory would tell us about their chances of dethroning Dublin.
Yet Cork hung in there. And then hung in there some more. You waited for normal service to resume but it never did. The underdogs displayed a 'no pasaran' attitude all afternoon.
Seán Powter levelled Ronan Buckley with an 11th-minute shoulder while Killian O'Hanlon and Mark Collins exulted over the fallen Peter Crowley after he'd coughed up a free on the half hour.
The ref gave a hop ball for that but Cork won it and a free which Collins slotted over. All the same, it was hard to believe the outsiders could actually win. When Kerry went two up with four minutes left it seemed time for that condescending 'no shame in defeat' stuff Cork got fed up with hearing a long time ago. Instead Luke Connolly kicked a great long-range point before Powter, a bristling miracle of competitiveness, won a ball when outnumbered four to one and a free which Collins kicked to bring extra-time.
Again Kerry went two up with time running out. Again Connolly halved the gap from way out before he went for another improbable point which turned into an even more improbable goal. Perhaps it's the very torments of the past few years which taught Cork the resilience needed to prevail. Collins has been on the team since 2011 and experienced all the worst hours.
Yesterday the Castlehaven forward was immense, ranging all over the pitch, a ubiquitous link man whenever Cork needed an out ball. His precise distribution epitomised Cork's patient intelligence when in possession. No one deserved this win more.
The contribution of Cork's neophytes was striking too. Only six starters remain from the team eviscerated two years ago. Such radical reconstruction requires an act of faith on the part of the manager. Who knows how even the most promising tyro will react in the heat of Championship action?
That's why perhaps the most remarkable Cork performance of all came from half-back Seán Meehan. An under-20 star last year, the kid from Kiskeam was making his Championship debut yet not only defended superbly but powered forward at every opportunity.
When it appeared that Cork might not even get a final shot off, it was the number six who took on the responsibility of surging at the Kerry blanket defence and creating the room for Connolly's fateful effort. Meehan backed brave and was rewarded for it.
Humiliation
Two years ago it looked as though Cork had only serial humiliation at the hands of a golden Kerry generation to look forward to. That was when Ronan McCarthy had just become manager. He was not a glamorous choice, yet the Douglas man has a considerable reputation in his native county for diligence and determination.
It's 21 years since he was assigned the job of marking Maurice Fitzgerald in a Munster final also played in a Leeside downpour. Few fancied McCarthy's chances that day but he held the great Kerry forward scoreless as Cork scored a surprise victory.
However, even that seems a pretty simple task compared to bringing Cork from where they were 18 months ago to where they are today. McCarthy's achievement in remaking and remodelling Cork is an extraordinary one.
Kerry didn't help themselves. Changing their usual style of play in order to cope with Dublin always seemed a bit silly. They're never comfortable in defensive mode and that focus on Dublin looks mighty previous now.
There was a complacency about the Kingdom's performance. They too seemed to be waiting for the usual Cork collapse. But not this time. Not this Cork.
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Post by ballhopper34 on Nov 16, 2020 0:55:30 GMT
Tomas says Brian O'Beaglaoich came back on was it to replace Tom O'Sullivan or was it Graham O'Sullivan who replaced Tom?
Or did O'Beaglaoich come back on at all, or if he did, for who?
I watched the game once and have no inclination to watch it again, but, as a collector of stats and history, I'd like to get the substitutions correct.
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Aodhan
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Post by Aodhan on Nov 16, 2020 4:01:46 GMT
Tomas says Brian O'Beaglaoich came back on was it to replace Tom O'Sullivan or was it Graham O'Sullivan who replaced Tom? Or did O'Beaglaoich come back on at all, or if he did, for who? I watched the game once and have no inclination to watch it again, but, as a collector of stats and history, I'd like to get the substitutions correct. A number of newspapers reports incorrectly had O'Beagloaich as Tom O'Sullivan's replacement in ET. Graham O'Sullivan was his replacement. Brian did not make a return.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Nov 16, 2020 7:45:54 GMT
Did anyone take a forensic look at Mark Keane's 'goal de grâce' - I recall the Aussies being able to disorientate Donaghy in Salthill as he tried to field and Tommy looked a bit like he was jolted in a somewhat similar fashion, bearing in mind Walsh is also ex Oz.
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pillar
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Post by pillar on Nov 16, 2020 18:09:58 GMT
Had a look at the stats in the local papers..Kerry had 32 shots,Cork had 19 shots..both scored 13 times....usually you'd have 20% more attacks(sometimes even more) to shots..so you can say Kerry had 40 attacks and Cork 26...and Kerry were playing defensive???..Cork were more efficient with their shots, that was the main difference!!
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Post by piggott on Nov 16, 2020 18:29:20 GMT
So we didn't score with 19 of our shots. Similar to replay v Dublin.
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pillar
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Post by pillar on Nov 16, 2020 18:38:08 GMT
So we didn't score with 19 of our shots. Similar to replay v Dublin. Ya ,counts for wides,drop shorts and hitting posts
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 17, 2020 10:29:29 GMT
So we didn't score with 19 of our shots. Similar to replay v Dublin. Going from memory now but did Kerry not leave a lot mores after them in the drawn game.
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Post by onlykerry on Nov 17, 2020 11:32:44 GMT
In most sports the difference between the dominant top sides and the pretenders to their thrones is conversion rate - we bemoan our lack of recent success and go on about porous defences and all manner of details regarding play throughout the field - fix our scoring ratio and we will begin to win silverware again. We laugh at other teams through the ages who could match up throughout the field but not when it came to our ability to convert the chances we created - multiple scoring forwards was frequently the difference between Kerry and their vanquished foes. With all the emphasis on athleticism and tracking which are important parts of the modern game we have somewhat lost focus on conversion rates. Scoring efficiency is our missing link.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Nov 17, 2020 12:23:55 GMT
In most sports the difference between the dominant top sides and the pretenders to their thrones is conversion rate - we bemoan our lack of recent success and go on about porous defences and all manner of details regarding play throughout the field - fix our scoring ratio and we will begin to win silverware again. We laugh at other teams through the ages who could match up throughout the field but not when it came to our ability to convert the chances we created - multiple scoring forwards was frequently the difference between Kerry and their vanquished foes. With all the emphasis on athleticism and tracking which are important parts of the modern game we have somewhat lost focus on conversion rates. Scoring efficiency is our missing link. No good in being the best footballer if the opponent has the ball though!
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Post by onlykerry on Nov 17, 2020 13:36:44 GMT
In most sports the difference between the dominant top sides and the pretenders to their thrones is conversion rate - we bemoan our lack of recent success and go on about porous defences and all manner of details regarding play throughout the field - fix our scoring ratio and we will begin to win silverware again. We laugh at other teams through the ages who could match up throughout the field but not when it came to our ability to convert the chances we created - multiple scoring forwards was frequently the difference between Kerry and their vanquished foes. With all the emphasis on athleticism and tracking which are important parts of the modern game we have somewhat lost focus on conversion rates. Scoring efficiency is our missing link. No good in being the best footballer if the opponent has the ball though! And no point having possession unless you can make it count on the scoreboard. The game is decided by who has the highest score and not who had the most possession or shots at goal. 40% conversion against Cork got its just rewards unfortunately.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 17, 2020 14:15:19 GMT
No good in being the best footballer if the opponent has the ball though! And no point having possession unless you can make it count on the scoreboard. The game is decided by who has the highest score and not who had the most possession or shots at goal. 40% conversion against Cork got its just rewards unfortunately. Of course skill and "mindset" are not independent when it comes to kicking pints. Clifford's accuracy has been off the charts according to some stat-compilers. SOS has been a very steady kicker. The skills themselves are there.
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Post by dc84 on Nov 17, 2020 18:16:25 GMT
Our problem is the over reliance on Clifford and o shea to consistently kick crazy percentages of over 60% in everygame seanie wasnt right obviously and david had an off day.
Once that happened we were reliant on brosnan on his first championship start ever? Moynihan who had kicked one championship point , buckley on his debut and midfielders and 7 defenders to outscore cork who in fairness started 6 forwards who can chip in a tough ask!
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 17, 2020 20:01:52 GMT
Our problem is the over reliance on Clifford and o shea to consistently kick crazy percentages of over 60% in everygame seanie wasnt right obviously and david had an off day. Once that happened we were reliant on brosnan on his first championship start ever? Moynihan who had kicked one championship point , buckley on his debut and midfielders and 7 defenders to outscore cork who in fairness started 6 forwards who can chip in a tough ask! Declan Eoin Brosnan and Galvin scored freely from the half forward line. You needed that.
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Post by buck02 on Nov 17, 2020 20:15:08 GMT
The most glaring deficiency since Peter Keane took over is the lack of goal chances created and as a consequence the lack of goals scored.
Now maybe he is a manager whose specialty is not forward play. People would then point to Maurice Fitz but we werent exactly setting the world on fire on the goal scoring charts in Eamonn Fitzs last year when Maurice was coach then too.
Tommy Griffins speciality is as a defensive coach.
Its something that needs to be addressed for next year.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Nov 17, 2020 20:46:28 GMT
No good in being the best footballer if the opponent has the ball though! And no point having possession unless you can make it count on the scoreboard. The game is decided by who has the highest score and not who had the most possession or shots at goal. 40% conversion against Cork got its just rewards unfortunately. All else being equal, the more possession the more scores -undisputable fact. Now as regards the best player and while I was thinking of natural talent, i.e. nature and in contrast to acquired skill, you may be talking of strength and conditioning and in contrast to ball work. I'd love to agree with you and while one needs ball skill and fitness, it is unfortunately physique that is becoming more important as traditional skill is on the wane. Of course it is a conundrum as to how this can reversed, even stalled. Fielding has been recovered a good bit with the mark and wouldn't it be great if we have turned the corner - some really amazing long range points from difficult angles lately. Mind you we also had some long range hail marys from less difficult angles! On a general basis I'd say we are all more or less of the same thinking, but maybe we need to look at things in a broader context, i.e. you cannot legislate for the minority, it is one set of rules - and rules alone will not do it though the black card is also a help in that it disciplines tackling. Of course games are getting more difficult to ref with McEnaney predicting is it video assisted refereeing (VAR) within 5 years. The game is in good enough nick at the moment and aren't we so grateful for it. Maybe the powers that be will learn from what us geniuses are saying and we will all live happily ever after.
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Post by Galway breeze on Nov 17, 2020 21:45:40 GMT
Buck02 very valid point on goal drought. The way the game has gone teams need at least six players scoring frequently. The other thing really sticking out is the way Kerry were knocked about and turned over so easily. Also the last quarter in games last year and more noticeable this year is how Kerry struggle to keep the pace of the game going. A lot of players going down cramping and looking very sluggish all due to the lack of championship conditioning. The guy from Armagh most be accountable for Kerry’s poor showing a few times this year.
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Post by piggott on Nov 17, 2020 21:48:28 GMT
The most glaring deficiency since Peter Keane took over is the lack of goal chances created and as a consequence the lack of goals scored. Now maybe he is a manager whose specialty is not forward play. People would then point to Maurice Fitz but we werent exactly setting the world on fire on the goal scoring charts in Eamonn Fitzs last year when Maurice was coach then too. Tommy Griffins speciality is as a defensive coach. Its something that needs to be addressed for next year. Is it time to bring someone like Colm Cooper on board, his understanding of forward play and engineering goal scoring chances would be superior to any of present mentors.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 18, 2020 6:57:50 GMT
Our problem is the over reliance on Clifford and o shea to consistently kick crazy percentages of over 60% in everygame seanie wasnt right obviously and david had an off day. Once that happened we were reliant on brosnan on his first championship start ever? Moynihan who had kicked one championship point , buckley on his debut and midfielders and 7 defenders to outscore cork who in fairness started 6 forwards who can chip in a tough ask! I agree, with simply didnt start with enough scoring options & only really had one on the bench. The AI final was the same last year, when we were a point & a man up and needed to go for the kill- we had noone to bring on and ended up bringing on lads who were not forwards to play in the forward line
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Post by onlykerry on Nov 18, 2020 9:56:30 GMT
Our problem is the over reliance on Clifford and o shea to consistently kick crazy percentages of over 60% in everygame seanie wasnt right obviously and david had an off day. Once that happened we were reliant on brosnan on his first championship start ever? Moynihan who had kicked one championship point , buckley on his debut and midfielders and 7 defenders to outscore cork who in fairness started 6 forwards who can chip in a tough ask! I agree, with simply didnt start with enough scoring options & only really had one on the bench. The AI final was the same last year, when we were a point & a man up and needed to go for the kill- we had noone to bring on and ended up bringing on lads who were not forwards to play in the forward line What you say is my instinctive answer also but when I look back the evidence does not always support our perception. If we look back to the four in a row side of 79 - 81 and even add in the campaign/game we lost in '82(Trump would say was stolen) we see that our much vaunted forward line was highly dependent on Mikey Sheehy in many of those finals and campaigns. In the final of '79 Mickey contributed 2-6 with Pat Spillane 0-4, John Egan 1-1 with the remaining two points from Liston and O Shea. In '80 Mikey scored 1-6 from our total of 1-9 with single point contributions from Spillane, Ger Power and O Shea. In 20 championship games from '78 to '82 Sheehy contributes 17-95 and averaged 7.3 points per game. Perhaps even our great Kerry tradition has had that strong reliance on one genius with supporting contributions - one also has to acknowledge that DC is still very young and having to take the strain of captaincy, modern day media attention and be our scorer in chief is a big ask that he is still learning to deal with - off days are to be expected as he develops and this is where the supporting class are so important and we absolutely lacked the old experienced head in the forward division (were the starting 6 forwards all under 24? - I think 4 were 22 including 2 making their championship debuts).
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pillar
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Post by pillar on Nov 18, 2020 12:04:15 GMT
I agree, with simply didnt start with enough scoring options & only really had one on the bench. The AI final was the same last year, when we were a point & a man up and needed to go for the kill- we had noone to bring on and ended up bringing on lads who were not forwards to play in the forward line What you say is my instinctive answer also but when I look back the evidence does not always support our perception. If we look back to the four in a row side of 79 - 81 and even add in the campaign/game we lost in '82(Trump would say was stolen) we see that our much vaunted forward line was highly dependent on Mikey Sheehy in many of those finals and campaigns. In the final of '79 Mickey contributed 2-6 with Pat Spillane 0-4, John Egan 1-1 with the remaining two points from Liston and O Shea. In '80 Mikey scored 1-6 from our total of 1-9 with single point contributions from Spillane, Ger Power and O Shea. In 20 championship games from '78 to '82 Sheehy contributes 17-95 and averaged 7.3 points per game. Perhaps even our great Kerry tradition has had that strong reliance on one genius with supporting contributions - one also has to acknowledge that DC is still very young and having to take the strain of captaincy, modern day media attention and be our scorer in chief is a big ask that he is still learning to deal with - off days are to be expected as he develops and this is where the supporting class are so important and we absolutely lacked the old experienced head in the forward division (were the starting 6 forwards all under 24? - I think 4 were 22 including 2 making their championship debuts). Watch the game again lads..we probably left 1-8 after us and a lot of it was by not doing the simple thing.Defensively we were very well set up,they got some handy frees off the ref.These young lads will learn from the experience.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 18, 2020 20:30:58 GMT
What you say is my instinctive answer also but when I look back the evidence does not always support our perception. If we look back to the four in a row side of 79 - 81 and even add in the campaign/game we lost in '82(Trump would say was stolen) we see that our much vaunted forward line was highly dependent on Mikey Sheehy in many of those finals and campaigns. In the final of '79 Mickey contributed 2-6 with Pat Spillane 0-4, John Egan 1-1 with the remaining two points from Liston and O Shea. In '80 Mikey scored 1-6 from our total of 1-9 with single point contributions from Spillane, Ger Power and O Shea. In 20 championship games from '78 to '82 Sheehy contributes 17-95 and averaged 7.3 points per game. Perhaps even our great Kerry tradition has had that strong reliance on one genius with supporting contributions - one also has to acknowledge that DC is still very young and having to take the strain of captaincy, modern day media attention and be our scorer in chief is a big ask that he is still learning to deal with - off days are to be expected as he develops and this is where the supporting class are so important and we absolutely lacked the old experienced head in the forward division (were the starting 6 forwards all under 24? - I think 4 were 22 including 2 making their championship debuts). Watch the game again lads..we probably left 1-8 after us and a lot of it was by not doing the simple thing.Defensively we were very well set up,they got some handy frees off the ref.These young lads will learn from the experience. I have watched game again, we didnt have enough scoring options. We started with 2 lads inside in Brosnan & Clifford with both dropping back inside their own half for large chunks of the game and when we had the chance to change things up bringing on Spillane we decided to take off Brosnan & make a like for like change rather than increasing our attacking options. Playing with 2 real threats from play was fairly pathetic to be honest. 1-8? What was the goal chance? The time where we had a wing back in near their goal? Imagine if it had been a forward?
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 18, 2020 22:43:39 GMT
Ye are all forgetting that in the league games there was an awful lot of attacking from the half back line.
This did not occur or was inappropriate in the conditions.
If it was inappropriate in the conditions indeed more scoring forwards might have been required.
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pillar
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Post by pillar on Nov 18, 2020 23:19:51 GMT
Watch the game again lads..we probably left 1-8 after us and a lot of it was by not doing the simple thing.Defensively we were very well set up,they got some handy frees off the ref.These young lads will learn from the experience. I have watched game again, we didnt have enough scoring options. We started with 2 lads inside in Brosnan & Clifford with both dropping back inside their own half for large chunks of the game and when we had the chance to change things up bringing on Spillane we decided to take off Brosnan & make a like for like change rather than increasing our attacking options. Playing with 2 real threats from play was fairly pathetic to be honest. 1-8? What was the goal chance? The time where we had a wing back in near their goal? Imagine if it had been a forward? I've seen wingbacks scoring goals,Gavin White plenty times..we had 32 shots at goals,13 points ,that means we didn't score with 19 attempts..1-8 was a conservative estimate..not blaming any player but on another day they go over...we missed 5 of those in the opening quarter..a 5 point lead at that stage would have been insurmountable given our defensive structure,the oxygen it would have pulled out of Cork and Corks own lack of scoring threat.You play that game again,9/10 wed have won!!
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dano
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Post by dano on Nov 18, 2020 23:55:12 GMT
I agree Pillar. Bad day,too many bad misses. Even David's goal shot. On 9 attempts out of 10 he'd have planted it. Cork have improved no doubt. But not as much as the media are giving them credit for.Kerry were'nt winning the breaking balls in midfield that Paul Galvin was so good at. Cork were ravenous for them and , in a tight game Kerry were left exposed at the end for an ambush. Maybe it's for the best going forward. Kerry will have a strong opponent in Munster now with a(fired up) Cork that know the 14 point drubbings are behind them. If Kerry do progress out of the province in years to come it'll be after a tough test which is always a good thing.I know Dublin have been doing ok without that test but they're a different animal altogether.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 19, 2020 10:21:22 GMT
Ye are all forgetting that in the league games there was an awful lot of attacking from the half back line. This did not occur or was inappropriate in the conditions. If it was inappropriate in the conditions indeed more scoring forwards might have been required. That’s when Spillane should have come on for a non- scoring forward. My opinion has always been that the decision to start the team that we did was bad but the inability to change the shape, structure or attacking intent was unforgivable
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 19, 2020 15:22:51 GMT
Maybe Cork would have put over 20 points on the board against a less defensive side that Kerry. Lets see how they fare v Tipp and Mayo if they get that far.
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taibhse
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Post by taibhse on Nov 19, 2020 16:25:37 GMT
Because Cork won the game, they have avoided critical analysis of their performance. I can’t understand, for instance, why they left their best scoring forward, Connolly, on the bench for so long. Had Kerry won by a point, there would have been calls for heads.
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Post by southward on Nov 19, 2020 16:47:05 GMT
I have watched game again, we didnt have enough scoring options. We started with 2 lads inside in Brosnan & Clifford with both dropping back inside their own half for large chunks of the game and when we had the chance to change things up bringing on Spillane we decided to take off Brosnan & make a like for like change rather than increasing our attacking options. Playing with 2 real threats from play was fairly pathetic to be honest. 1-8? What was the goal chance? The time where we had a wing back in near their goal? Imagine if it had been a forward? Forwards like Clifford come around maybe once or twice in your lifetime. Having him back defending in his own half is a crime against football; it's bringing the game into disrepute. Imagine Mikey Sheehy being asked to do that. Or Maurice. They'd have laughed at you.
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