'Keys to the Kingdom'

[Mickmack]

some first post from you there babablacksheep. when is the second one due out

[kerryeye]

Has Fat Tom returned to us in the form of babablacksheep

[redbag]

tabbyie said:

It's going on sale in Easons on 4th july.

Picked it up in Waterstones last night in Dawson St. if anyone is looking for it in the Pale.


From reading the book it seems as if vast parts of it have appeared in articles in the Times over the last 18 months... for example how long is the Tom Sullivan and his text message story around at this stage?


The stories around Colaiste Skellig are poigniant for obvious reasons...The"under siege" mentality of the rest of the book doesn't makes for a relaxing read.. He attempts to justify the dropping of Fitzy in 2000 and relates an unpleasant encounter in the Fitzgerald family kitchen that perhaps should not have been revealed.

It all just seems a bit strange to write a book when so many of the players are still around.. I certainly would expect that if I'd was sending text messages to the Kerry manager as a squad player that they wouldn't end up in book within a year? Maybe he cleared it with the individuals, maybe he didn't... (on another point, the number of texts messages that were flying around, no wonder he couldn't hold down a full time job teaching job, he must have spent half the day hammering a kepad!)


Finally - I wonder has Jack called Pat o Shea to wish him well :-)

[Deleted]

Jacks interview on newstalk did not reveal a whole lot more.

He softened on a few issues, admitted he might have been a bit thin skinned at times.

He gave the impression of a guy who because he was not a great player never felt accepted by the Kerry footballing public.

Clearly there is a history between him and Micko. He did not want to get in to it too much but hinted that it could be to do with Karl not being picked for Kerry in the mid to late 90's when he was selector.

Maybe our South Kerry correspondents can provide a bit more detail.

[Mickmack]

I have started reading it the book and already I have concerns for Jack. The whole job seemed to consume him and i would say that his job, his family and his health suffered. He is obviously very intense and has difficulty switching off which can lead to serious health problems. He talks about hours and hours spent on his own getting his mind straight about things.

Its only sport.

That sort of threadmill is very dangerous and can lead to depression of the human body.

I have a very uncomfortable feeling about this book from the point of view of Jacks well being.

I am glad that he is no longer manager as nothing is worth that sort of pressure.

[buck02]

Has austinstacksabu or perhaps gawksiegorman been re-incarnated as babablacksheep?? Great post though, you've just put me off buying the book.

I wonder will Jack go to the game on Sunday. If so what kind of reaction will he get from the Kerry footballing public after all the mud thats been flung around this week.

[kerrygold]

the sad thing about it is that most issues had been put to bed and forgotten about in the main till jack went and pulled an 8 furrow plough through the whole damn lot again.

i'm half way through the book mickmack,i read the last few chapters first,they dont change my opinions on the brosnan declan saga,the last paragragh in the book disturbs me greatly as indeed does many references to declans brillance throughout the book.

was there a bond film or some song called,"eyes for you only"

[kerrygold]

mickmack,county football is all consuming at the time,it takes over your whole life and dominates its completely,thats why i continiously harp on here about player welfare,thats my only purpose in doing so,player welfare.

very few get to see the home life of the county player,the vast majority only see them on the pitch on sunday and have no idea how they came to be in the first place.

[Johnnyb]

just finshed the book there lads, jaysus, whoever said meath people have chips on both shoulders to help them stand straight might want to readjust geographics to Droimid.

[Owenabue]

Lads, what ever you say about Cork and Billy etc, we never attack Kerry player/manager or ex-manager with the vigour you attack your own! After all Jack did over the three years, you would think that he would have a statue put up to him in Killarney.

[peig]

babablacksheep said:

Pony, I didn't pick the interview you mentioned but without fear of contradiction I would be certain that he spent most of it in reverse, or at least downplaying what was written (isn't it surprising that Tom Humphries finds it difficult to extract nuggets from any other subject - see laptop dancing etc etc - but has easily pulled everything bar the wisdom teeth from the fomer manager in this instance !

But then, if you were in the Dromid man's shoes, wouldn't you be inclined to do the same ?......Dull tripe never sells, wheras spiced up tripe will always find an audience...even though it is still tripe. Throw as much as you can into the book, get as big reaction as possible, and then apologise for as little as you can get away with in as rameishy a way as possible.....after all, who ever remembers the apologies ?

I wonder if many of the great sports tomes on Tom H's top shelf ever had as much spleen venting or score settling in them ?... from Mailer to McRae via the great prose of Jim Murray (LA Times), great sportswriting stokes the warm embers in the belly of anyone with even a passing interest , makes them feel as if they are on the inside just for once , on a wavelength of sorts with the subject. This one ?....nah....its more akin to a slice of lemon straight from the fridge, cold and bitter.

But maybe we are missing the entire point ?.... is the book really about the chips and chops, smites and smotes of the ex manager at all, or is it merely the foundation of the "O'Connor brand"? As any marketing student will testify, one of the key cornerstones of any brand is product differentiation....is this any different?...do you know anyone else who writes in similiar language for starters ?....will we call it the curse of the Carraigs ? has anyone else had a go at the team of the 70's before? at Micko ? nah ... have a go at the readers sacred beliefs, the inner sanctum if you will....that will make you different.....nobody ever remembers who was second up Everest after Tensing and Hillery !

Language differentiation....tick.....holy grail invasion....tick.....brand enhancing...keep it coming.....lets have a go at present day figures of respect and in authority ...the arrogant nouveau riche of Tyrone...that will do...tick.......present Kerry setup...tick....county board who perhaps should have done better by him...tick ...tick indeed !

You see, being a manager of a team that wins two all Irelands isnt differentiation enough...Lyne, O'Dwyer, Heffo, Morgan, Boylan, O Shea etc etc etc etc etc...that aint enough for a brand...its a good start but not enough. Does everyone remember every winning manager at a consistently winning franchise ?....Yankees ? Milan ? the Celts ? nope, its only the ones who built the brand who stood the test of memory, those who created the cult kept their names on the tongue of every disenfranchised barfly like myself, who uses sport as a primary means of self identity,and an often vain hope of belonging.

Its all part of the plan therefore....the language, the muck raking, the knocking of the sacred icons and more importantly, our reaction to it....feed the frenzy, keep the cult going, build the brand. The easiest way to stop it for those former fans of the ex manager (and I would have been one), is simply to realise that we are the test rats and test rats generally react the way they are suppose to react...this time fellow Francaigh , walk away...ignore the slights....if someone wants to build his brand in this fashion let him at it, preferably on his own !.

Holy sh1t!!! That's some piece of writing there, lad.

[Mickmack]

buck02 said:

Has austinstacksabu or perhaps gawksiegorman been re-incarnated as babablacksheep??

i always assumed that austinstacksabu and gawksiegorman were one and the same

[Joxer]

Owenabue, slow though I would be to agree with any Cork person, you talk the most sense on this subject. Jack should be treated like a legend for his managerial achievements...hes up there with the greats but obviously has hit close to the bone on some points in his book as many on here would like to distance themselves as much as possible. Eaten bread is soon forgotten but Jack took a team that had failed three years in a row to win the All-Ireland while shipping two huge, psychologically, defeats to Meath and Tyrone in the process and brought them to three finals in a row, winning two of them. The small matter of picking up two nat. leagues and two munster championships should not be forgotten also. What do people want...for jack, to nod and smile and say nothing as in 'Thanks Jack now F*** off, next manager please'. Sorry guys, life ain't that simple. In my opinion, Jack is well entitled to call it as it is. He owes us nothing in case you think he does. Its we owe him! Jack is up there with Micko and theres more than a little evidence to suggest that the era Jack worked in was a far more competitive one than when Micko was about in Kerry. As for criticism over Declans selection for the A.I. Final...surely Declans performance in that first half eliminates any idea that this was anything other than a football decision. I honestly thought through out the 3 years, that Jack played it as he saw it and we were all the beneficiaries. Our heroes can't all be the winking, nodding, smiling types...some like to tell the truth. Live with it. As for baabaablack sheep, I haven't read such nonsense since the last post by gawksiegorman. Having lived through both the golden age and the past 10 years, I would put the past ten years on a par for many reasons. We have been truely honoured to have had such great footballers representing us for the past 10 years and the last 3 years have been particularly satisfying. Well done Jack and f*** the begrudgers, of which we have many.

[Owenabue]

Thanks Joxer. It is unusual for me to be accused of talking sense!

[Johnnyb]

Joxer, you make a valid point. no-one here would suggest that Jack isnt deserving of praise. he got the best out of a great bunch of players, no doubt. however, that is completely not the point. to cast doubt on the validity of the book isnt begrudging the man. to say he shouldnt tarnish names with bitter one sided opinion isnt begruding the man. to say he has offended a great many people by venting his spleen and in the process called into to question the integrity of the Kerry county board isnt begrudging the man. 3 All Ireland Finals, well done, fantastic achievement. One silly book, you took your eye off the ball jack.

[buck02]

Joxer - the issue here is not the 3 finals in a row, 2 all irelands, 2 leagues and 2 munster titles that Jack brought. The MAJORITY of football folk in the county have rightly hailed these achievements.

This thread is about the book, its content, its timing and the way the man himself comes across. The bits & pieces I've read have made me lose some respect for Jack. Maybe that might change when I read all the book.

Consider the scenario - during Jacks first year in charge that some journalist decides to do a story on Jack O Connor and his previous years in football. Maybe go around the county and get stories from players, managers, selectors etc. he crossed paths with over the years. IF (and I'm just using this for comparison reasons before anybody has a go) these stories told of players he'd lamped & injured on the field, referees he'd told never to come south of the Kilpeacan Cross again, other club managers he had run-ins with on the sideline, selectors having a go at him for being the manager of a team that lost an U21 final to Waterford, stories of favouritism in selecting certain players from his own region. Basically stories that would cause controversy & have a negative effect on him & the team. Print the story in the run up to his first Munster Final as manager.

Have the article dominate the lead up to his first Munster Final in charge. Have radio show after radio show and newspaper comment after newspaper comment embroiled in the controversy.

I wonder how Jack would react to that journalist?

[peig]

babablacksheep said:

has anyone else had a go at the team of the 70's before? at Micko ? nah ... have a go at the readers sacred beliefs, the inner sanctum if you will....that will make you different.....

For that alone, I admire the man...

[islandexile]

I have a funny feeling 'babablacksheep' might be Tom Humphries himself...the above is the writing of a journalist......

[austinstacksabu]

Firstly BaBa, welcome to the club. Secondly, do you have an NUJ card, because if you don't then will you do us the pleasure of going out, getting one and letting the Times or Indo know you're open for business as a freelance journalist. That's mighty mighty stuff.

I haven't read the excerpts from the book yet. I was working on a project in the middle of nowhere in TingTang land, where incidently I came across a man over on the project who plays hurling for Stacks.....isn't it a small world indeed!!

Jack has quietly been tipping around the edges of the media since the 2004 All Ireland, and it was only a matter of time before the book was launched. Expect the coaching guide soon.

Tell me BaBa, do you think Jack was wrong to have a pop at the Golden Years team?

[austinstacksabu]

mickmack said:

buck02 said:

Has austinstacksabu or perhaps gawksiegorman been re-incarnated as babablacksheep??

i always assumed that austinstacksabu and gawksiegorman were one and the same

Eh, negative captain.

[austinstacksabu]

Joxer,

Little surprised there.

What people are entitled to expect of Jack, who by the way will always be considered a great manager in Kerry and beyond, is for him to hold some of the conversations and ins and outs of managerialship to himself.

Heffo never let slip what he had to say to Keavney when he found him in Vincents clubhouse bar time and time again. Sean Boylan didn't tell of the conversations he had with half of the Meath team time and time again.

I'm reading a book by the great baseball manager Tony La Russo at the moment, the only manager to have won a world series with both AL and NL league teams, called Three Nights in August. It details his three days as a manager during a fairly heated triple leg against Chicago Cubs. But you never hear him give the finer details about x converation with y player. He talks in generalities, because it still allows you to understand what he was thinking as a manager. But he never goes into spicy specifics.

BaBa was spot on in his calling of Jack's thoughts (and even though I haven't read them fully, I've spoken with people at home and been talked through what he says about various people etc). Spice sells, and Jack has given the spice, his own variation of it anyway. He wants to sell books, and is fully entitled to do so.

But you'll never see a great manager, with a proud legacy in their chosen sport, ever open the door and give private conversations an airing which should remain what it is assumed they will be.....Private.

Jack is a good manager, and has shown that he is capable of winning. But in airing private conversations, he has let himself down. Spice sells, but there are other ways of differentiating your product.

[peig]

gawksiegorman said:

" for baabaablack sheep, I haven't read such nonsense since the last post by gawksiegorman "
Peig congratulates Jack for having a pop at Micko and the '70s lads....why not 29-32 or Eamonn O'sullivan as we are at it ?

Gawksie,
'admire' verb - regard with respect or satisfaction;
'congratulate' - verb - express pleasure at happiness, excellence or good fortune of person.

I, like many people on the board, was brought up in an era where the Kerry team of the 'Golden Years' was venerated and Micko was king. I was therefore disgusted when I read the excerpt regarding what was said, in Jack O'Connor's presence, in the Gleneagle Hotel. Answer me this: how is it that a lot of people on this board or in the wider GAA community hadn't heard about it before?

[Aine]

kerrygold said:

aine said:

Bit slow out here in Moyvane i suppose!

what,slow readers or just backward?

;D

;D ;D ;D

[MrRasherstoyou]

Lads, yis are just laying all the groundwork for Jack to make his big comeback when Kerry start rebuilding their team. He got out when he knew his team might have peaked, and maybe was afraid what would come to him from the critics if they didnt manage to do the near-impossible of winning the back-to-back Sam - in other words, with Tyrone expected to be back in gear this year, still a young team & very hungry, he must have reckoned that another defeat (more likely with your Pony & Mike Mac gone) would have resulted in alot of anger towards him, despite his great achievements. Such is football life at the thin oxygen level of Kerry, dont you think?

[austinstacksabu]

No rashers.....if he wanted to get away from grief and criticism, why did he sign off on doing the book!!

[homerj]

i have just spent the last few hours reading through the book, skipping a few bits and pieces here and there. i aint read all the posts on here, so excuse me if the following has already been discussed -

the text that jack got the night that the team was picked for the final........how it came from "within the team".....who sent that text i wonder???

[Deleted]

Have read the book today from start to finish.

Great read, really enjoyed it but there is no doubt that recalling private conversations word for word is an unecessary breach of trust. I doubt the players thought their various conversations would end up in a book.

Interesting the way Jack sees himself especially in relation to the Killarney faction whoever they may be!

[MrRasherstoyou]

austinstacksabu said:

No rashers.....if he wanted to get away from grief and criticism, why did he sign off on doing the book!!

Because in doing that, he only really has responsibility to himself - as Kerry senior football boss he had alot of responsibility/expectation, alot of reputations on the line.
Books are ten a penny, so is controversy. It will all be forgotten, and what isn't forgotten is pure publicity, the fuel for royalties & raising a profile for business/other career

[Mickmack]

The guy i feel sorry for is the chairman Sean Walsh...... first the fall out from trying to remove paidi and now this........

[kingdomkerry]

Did anyone read the articles in the Sunday Times about that famous text?