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Post by legendz on Nov 21, 2023 12:18:45 GMT
Divisional clubs don't need a round robin. Divisional players already get a round robin with their clubs. 8 divisional clubs just need to enter a qualifying round, with the 4 winners joining 12 senior clubs in straight knockout from 16 onwards. Seriously that’s a very childish statement. Playing with a divisional team, if going about it properly, means gelling lads from different clubs together who don’t know each other that well necessarily. You cannot just turn up on a given day, pick a team and play. It won’t go well. St Brendan’s v Na Gaeil a prime example. Or what Shannon Rangers have done for most of last few years. South Kerry, St Kieran’s intermittently and obviously East Kerry have provided examples of how to do it over the years. Hence you need to give Divisions 2 games at least. The time they put into it before that depends on the clubs involved and other factors. I agree with giving divisional clubs at least 2 games but are the weekends available to provide that? Divisional clubs don't have to worry about relegation. A trade off is divisional clubs being in straight knockout. It is debatable however. Paudie Clifford was talking in favour of divisional clubs being in straight knockout.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 21, 2023 13:00:37 GMT
A devil's advocate's point. Clubs are giving out the divisions are too strong but also too weak.
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horsebox77
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Post by horsebox77 on Nov 21, 2023 14:01:57 GMT
A devil's advocate's point. Clubs are giving out the divisions are too strong but also too weak. how wasn't this an issue years ago when South Kerry were lording it or the mid 90's when EK did the three in a row?
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horsebox77
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Post by horsebox77 on Nov 21, 2023 14:03:13 GMT
Seriously that’s a very childish statement. Playing with a divisional team, if going about it properly, means gelling lads from different clubs together who don’t know each other that well necessarily. You cannot just turn up on a given day, pick a team and play. It won’t go well. St Brendan’s v Na Gaeil a prime example. Or what Shannon Rangers have done for most of last few years. South Kerry, St Kieran’s intermittently and obviously East Kerry have provided examples of how to do it over the years. Hence you need to give Divisions 2 games at least. The time they put into it before that depends on the clubs involved and other factors. I agree with giving divisional clubs at least 2 games but are the weekends available to provide that? Divisional clubs don't have to worry about relegation. A trade off is divisional clubs being in straight knockout. It is debatable however. Paudie Clifford was talking in favour of divisional clubs being in straight knockout. Yes there is a county board meeting tonight and one of the items on the agenda is the vote on even/odd ages and teh topoic of decoupling...
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 21, 2023 14:04:45 GMT
A devil's advocate's point. Clubs are giving out the divisions are too strong but also too weak. how wasn't this an issue years ago when South Kerry were lording it or the mid 90's when EK did the three in a row? We have no patience anymore, tinkering with stuff every year.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 21, 2023 15:35:12 GMT
A devil's advocate's point. Clubs are giving out the divisions are too strong but also too weak. Well another way of putting that is that they are completely unbalanced. Some are phenomenally strong and dominate and those that aren’t in with a chance of winning can often throw their hat at it as there’s no jeopardy- thus making a mockery of the championship at times
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Post by legendz on Nov 21, 2023 16:52:51 GMT
Divisional clubs don't need a round robin. Divisional players already get a round robin with their clubs. 8 divisional clubs just need to enter a qualifying round, with the 4 winners joining 12 senior clubs in straight knockout from 16 onwards. So why need a senior club championship then!? Last standing 2 teams in it, lay off represent kerry in Munster if divisional team wins it so don't need both. Intermediate, Premier Junior and Junior clubs are playing for at least 3 group games and up to 3 knockout rounds depending on progress. That's 6 weekends. The Senior Club Championship is logical enough to be completed in those 6 weekends, before the divisional clubs start in the County Championship. Club players need the round robin games at all levels more than divisional club players do. 8 divisional clubs could play off with the 4 winners joining the County Championship. The 4 losers could playoff for 2 more spots, their second chance. If the Senior Club Championship was in 2 groups of 6, the 6th placed senior clubs could be excluded from the County Championship? The County Championship would then be contested by 10 senior clubs and 6 divisional clubs. 1. Senior R1, Intermediate R1, Junior Premier R1 and Junior R1. 2. Senior R2, Intermediate R2, Junior Premier R2 and Junior R2. 3. Senior R3, Intermediate R3, Junior Premier R3 and Junior R3. 4. Senior R4, Intermediate QF, Junior Premier QF and Junior QF. 5. Senior R5, Intermediate SF, Junior Premier SF and Junior SF. 6. Senior SF, Intermediate Final, Junior Premier Final and Junior Final. 7. Senior Club Final. Divisional club qualifier - 8 divisional clubs, 4 winners to County Championship. 8. Divisional club playoff - 4 qualifier losers, 2 to County Championship. 9. County Championship Round of 16 (10 senior clubs and 6 divisional clubs) 10. County Championship Quarter-finals 11. County Championship Semi-finals 12. County Final
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Post by kerryblueboy on Nov 21, 2023 22:25:05 GMT
Age groups to remain as they are sense finally prevailing county championship structure to be reviewed
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Premier
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Post by Premier on Nov 21, 2023 23:13:15 GMT
Some talk on Twitter this evening that it might go to 10 clubs and 6 divisions. That would be fairly catastrophic in my view. Having only 6 divisions would lead to super divisions again which we want to avoid. Apparently the talk is that nothing will get done til 2025. So we have to sit through the torture of another county championship where realistically why would anyone bother train with EK the way they are. MK severely depleted now and I can imagine all the clubs will go he’ll for leather for club champ to represent their county and then not try for county championship. Not a ringing endorsement for the ‘flagship’ competition
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Post by hurlingman on Nov 22, 2023 8:25:54 GMT
A devil's advocate's point. Clubs are giving out the divisions are too strong but also too weak. how wasn't this an issue years ago when South Kerry were lording it or the mid 90's when EK did the three in a row? Because nowadays people want everything changed when it doesn't go their way. As you say South Kerry were just as dominate in the 2000s and not just at senior level underage as well. Yet no one was worried about it. East Kerry in the 90s as well.
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Post by homerj on Nov 22, 2023 10:39:32 GMT
the biggest problem is the schedule...no coincidence, that while there was always discontent, its really kicked off since it was piled basically into 6 or 7 weeks.
let the divisional teams maybe have 2 or 3 games in April, without their county players and see how it works. 8 teams, leaving 2 group winners going forward to the county championship later for example, remaing teams play off in a knockout losers round v 1st round losers in clubs and so on.
loads that can be done. but there definately is no need for senior clubs to have 6 group games, a 50% chance of a club 1/4 final and then same for county champiopnship 1/4, with 2 teams going into a relegation battle. its over kill
think somewhere along the line, it needs to become knockout, a little quicker
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Post by homerj on Nov 22, 2023 10:51:36 GMT
another thought, is it time to get rid of groups in the county championship and just have knockout, with 1 second chance in a losers round for 1st round losers?
so in other words, guaranteed 2 games instead of 3?
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Post by onlykerry on Nov 22, 2023 11:49:12 GMT
A devil's advocate's point. Clubs are giving out the divisions are too strong but also too weak. how wasn't this an issue years ago when South Kerry were lording it or the mid 90's when EK did the three in a row? The competition (2004/5/6) had 20 teams including 12 clubs - that is four "strong" clubs that were not boosting divisional sides. Sides (Clubs and Divisions) come and go in terms of strength and dominance - limiting the main county championship to 8 clubs at the expense of under performing (and at times dis-interested) divisions is the single biggest issue. Clubs are the heart and soul of the GAA - just look at the passion and excitement of the intermediate final and compare it to two weeks earlier when those two teams were part of the divisional sides that contested the county final.
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Post by legendz on Nov 22, 2023 17:00:19 GMT
Some talk on Twitter this evening that it might go to 10 clubs and 6 divisions. That would be fairly catastrophic in my view. Having only 6 divisions would lead to super divisions again which we want to avoid. Apparently the talk is that nothing will get done til 2025. So we have to sit through the torture of another county championship where realistically why would anyone bother train with EK the way they are. MK severely depleted now and I can imagine all the clubs will go he’ll for leather for club champ to represent their county and then not try for county championship. Not a ringing endorsement for the ‘flagship’ competition The county board seem eager for a 10:6 split. It has come up before. I'm guessing with that, they are considering 2 groups of 5 in the Senior Club Championship. With that, the 5th placed teams might enter a relegation final, with the loser being excluded from the County Championship. The Senior Club semi-finalists can be given a bye to the County quarter-finals. 1. 6 divisional clubs can playoff, with 3 winners joining 2 Senior Club 3rd placed teams in the County preliminary quarter-finals. 2. 3 divisional playoff losers, 2 Senior Club 4th placed teams and 1 Senior Club relegation final winner can enter a qualifying round, with 3 winners advancing to the County preliminary quarter-finals. 3. The County preliminary quarter-finals can be contested by 3 divisional playoff winners, 2 Senior Club 3rd placed teams and 3 qualifiers. 4. The County quarter-finals then can be contested by 4 Senior Club semi-finalists and 4 preliminary quarter-final winners. Senior clubs are guaranteed at least 5 games. Divisional clubs are guaranteed at least two games.
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Post by homerj on Nov 22, 2023 18:28:42 GMT
10: split though - NK merges...what else?
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Premier
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Post by Premier on Nov 22, 2023 19:01:39 GMT
10: split though - NK merges...what else? What happens in a few years time if NK actually follow through with their underage and turn into a behemoth with 10 plus teams. Going to 6 divisions makes no sense to me. Sticking to the 16 team championship isn’t feasible with divisions.
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mossie
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Post by mossie on Nov 22, 2023 21:02:07 GMT
another thought, is it time to get rid of groups in the county championship and just have knockout, with 1 second chance in a losers round for 1st round losers? so in other words, guaranteed 2 games instead of 3? need to go the route you are suggesting
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Post by hurlingman on Nov 23, 2023 9:09:50 GMT
how wasn't this an issue years ago when South Kerry were lording it or the mid 90's when EK did the three in a row? The competition (2004/5/6) had 20 teams including 12 clubs - that is four "strong" clubs that were not boosting divisional sides. Sides (Clubs and Divisions) come and go in terms of strength and dominance - limiting the main county championship to 8 clubs at the expense of under performing (and at times dis-interested) divisions is the single biggest issue. Clubs are the heart and soul of the GAA - just look at the passion and excitement of the intermediate final and compare it to two weeks earlier when those two teams were part of the divisional sides that contested the county final. There were also clubs at that time who had either no business being a senior club or were never going to challenge to win the championship. Why do people suddenly think that more clubs will straight away mean they're going to challenge for the title?
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Post by legendz on Nov 23, 2023 11:20:11 GMT
another thought, is it time to get rid of groups in the county championship and just have knockout, with 1 second chance in a losers round for 1st round losers? so in other words, guaranteed 2 games instead of 3? need to go the route you are suggesting An intermediate footballer getting to both the Intermediate final and County final will play 12 games in total. Straight knockout for the County would reduce that to 10 games.
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Post by onlykerry on Nov 24, 2023 9:55:35 GMT
The competition (2004/5/6) had 20 teams including 12 clubs - that is four "strong" clubs that were not boosting divisional sides. Sides (Clubs and Divisions) come and go in terms of strength and dominance - limiting the main county championship to 8 clubs at the expense of under performing (and at times dis-interested) divisions is the single biggest issue. Clubs are the heart and soul of the GAA - just look at the passion and excitement of the intermediate final and compare it to two weeks earlier when those two teams were part of the divisional sides that contested the county final. There were also clubs at that time who had either no business being a senior club or were never going to challenge to win the championship. Why do people suddenly think that more clubs will straight away mean they're going to challenge for the title? If one were to limit competitions to teams capable of actual success there would be very few participants (and that is not just in the GAA) - the county championship might have four teams if we are being generous. Clubs are better supported and bring more excitement, more community spirit and it gives vibrancy to the clubs themselves - I have rarely seen a club going through the motions of participating in the county championship - they may get well beaten from time to time but participating and being there means a lot to the club membership.
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Post by hurlingman on Nov 24, 2023 15:26:02 GMT
There were also clubs at that time who had either no business being a senior club or were never going to challenge to win the championship. Why do people suddenly think that more clubs will straight away mean they're going to challenge for the title? If one were to limit competitions to teams capable of actual success there would be very few participants (and that is not just in the GAA) - the county championship might have four teams if we are being generous. Clubs are better supported and bring more excitement, more community spirit and it gives vibrancy to the clubs themselves - I have rarely seen a club going through the motions of participating in the county championship - they may get well beaten from time to time but participating and being there means a lot to the club membership. In the 40 odd years post the 60s what did Mitchels bring to the championship? Or the 20 or so years Kilcummin were there? What you and others want are teams to be senior for the sake of it. You haven't given any reason as to how extra clubs are suddenly going to improve things? Other than by making divisional teams weaker.
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Post by legendz on Nov 26, 2023 10:23:15 GMT
If one were to limit competitions to teams capable of actual success there would be very few participants (and that is not just in the GAA) - the county championship might have four teams if we are being generous. Clubs are better supported and bring more excitement, more community spirit and it gives vibrancy to the clubs themselves - I have rarely seen a club going through the motions of participating in the county championship - they may get well beaten from time to time but participating and being there means a lot to the club membership. In the 40 odd years post the 60s what did Mitchels bring to the championship? Or the 20 or so years Kilcummin were there? What you and others want are teams to be senior for the sake of it. You haven't given any reason as to how extra clubs are suddenly going to improve things? Other than by making divisional teams weaker. 8 senior clubs is too few. I think the majority will agree to 10 or 12 senior clubs. A basic structure would see 8 divisional clubs having at least 2 games before the quarter-finals. That can mean 10 or 12 senior clubs chasing 4 County quarter-final spots. Senior Club finalists should receive a bye to the County quarter-finals. The remaining 8 or 10 senior clubs can go through 2 or 3 qualifying rounds for the remaining 2 places.
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Post by kerryboyo on Nov 26, 2023 12:00:49 GMT
Is the dingle game on tv ?
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Post by hurlingman on Nov 26, 2023 18:41:36 GMT
In the 40 odd years post the 60s what did Mitchels bring to the championship? Or the 20 or so years Kilcummin were there? What you and others want are teams to be senior for the sake of it. You haven't given any reason as to how extra clubs are suddenly going to improve things? Other than by making divisional teams weaker. 8 senior clubs is too few. I think the majority will agree to 10 or 12 senior clubs. A basic structure would see 8 divisional clubs having at least 2 games before the quarter-finals. That can mean 10 or 12 senior clubs chasing 4 County quarter-final spots. Senior Club finalists should receive a bye to the County quarter-finals. The remaining 8 or 10 senior clubs can go through 2 or 3 qualifying rounds for the remaining 2 places. Again why? What's going to suddenly change by having extra senior clubs?
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 27, 2023 8:54:02 GMT
8 senior clubs is too few. I think the majority will agree to 10 or 12 senior clubs. A basic structure would see 8 divisional clubs having at least 2 games before the quarter-finals. That can mean 10 or 12 senior clubs chasing 4 County quarter-final spots. Senior Club finalists should receive a bye to the County quarter-finals. The remaining 8 or 10 senior clubs can go through 2 or 3 qualifying rounds for the remaining 2 places. Again why? What's going to suddenly change by having extra senior clubs? Divisional sides will become weaker.
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Post by shannonsider on Nov 27, 2023 10:58:26 GMT
Again why? What's going to suddenly change by having extra senior clubs? Divisional sides will become weaker. I think a lot of people have very short memories or aren’t that involved in club football. The reason it went to 8 club teams was because quite a few clubs were just not able to remotely compete at Senior level and there was so many 1 sided games. The board took the decision to keep the quality of the SFC as high as possible. I think most people agree now that it should be around 10 clubs in Senior though and the standard wouldn’t be effected. 12 might be a stretch. Of course some people might say the quality of divisional sides needs to be looked at too. And that’s why I would have board request, formally or otherwise, that North Kerry enter 1 team instead of Shannon and Feale Rangers for the moment. There’s an argument for entering 2 teams from East Kerry also. I know it seems radical but I truly believe it would lead to a better championship.
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Premier
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Post by Premier on Nov 27, 2023 20:06:34 GMT
Divisional sides will become weaker. I think a lot of people have very short memories or aren’t that involved in club football. The reason it went to 8 club teams was because quite a few clubs were just not able to remotely compete at Senior level and there was so many 1 sided games. The board took the decision to keep the quality of the SFC as high as possible. I think most people agree now that it should be around 10 clubs in Senior though and the standard wouldn’t be effected. 12 might be a stretch. Of course some people might say the quality of divisional sides needs to be looked at too. And that’s why I would have board request, formally or otherwise, that North Kerry enter 1 team instead of Shannon and Feale Rangers for the moment. There’s an argument for entering 2 teams from East Kerry also. I know it seems radical but I truly believe it would lead to a better championship. Those teams that were hanging on back around 2010s didn’t have the training or the expertise that comes behind teams now. That has levelled the playing field a lot whereby these teams can compete physically now compared to back then. I’m not sure about joining the NK teams. Giving players the opportunity to play is the main priority of the championship and this would hinder that. I think by putting the teams to 12 is the way to go with the 8 divisions having a qualifier system. 2 games minimum. There may have to be some rerouting of teams to divisions but I’m open to suggestions on that. Keel to WK? Listry to MK? Kilgarvan to SK? These seem like more reasonable suggestions but if the appetite wasn’t there for it I’d say it would be fair enough too
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Post by legendz on Nov 27, 2023 21:57:01 GMT
If GAA Congress give counties with divisional clubs an exemption from the 16 club rule, most seem to favour 12 senior clubs and 8 divisional clubs. 12 senior clubs in 2 groups of 6 will be well road tested after 5 group games. They should be able to enter the County Championship in straight knockout format. If 8 divisional clubs playoff and the 4 losers get a second chance, that's 6 divisional clubs in the final 16. The senior clubs then just have to reduce from 12 to 10 for the final 16. If the 4 senior clubs finishing 5th and 6th enter a preliminary round, the 2 winners can join the final 16 and the 2 losers contest the relegation final. Relegation is less messy that way. The final 16 can be straight knockout.
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Post by onlykerry on Nov 27, 2023 23:02:59 GMT
What is it with groups and multiple games in championship competitions - we have too many games, particularly with the plethora of competitions (county, divisional/district etc). Something has to give.
I know I am probably old school but championship football is knock out football in my book - I can just about get to grips with a second chance saloon but the recent fixation with group phases in our championship competitions does my head in.
Simplify the structure of competitions and take the pressure off our amateur players and more may just stick at it. Games week in and week out will kill the game as lads have no life particularly with the level of commitment being demanded at club level these days.
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Post by ballhopper34 on Nov 28, 2023 5:54:36 GMT
Divisions should have a max number of intermediate teams...three or four, maybe?
Likewise, should Divisions have a minimum of one intermediate team?
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