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Post by hurlingman on Oct 29, 2023 21:10:19 GMT
How is it a fact? Based on what? Like I said Legion and others were 15/20 years at senior level without ever doing a whole lot. Why now would they suddenly bring something different to the table? Bless you, you don’t get it do you, we are not talking about winners we are talking about a competitive championship, the 3 clubs I mentioned have been in the qtr finals even semi finals more than most division sides, it’s time to end this divisional rubbish, no rhyme nor reason to it, unless you have some magical reason why we should continue to run 2 championships, burning out our best and facilitating ineptness at the other end. Just take a look at the game in stacks park today, club is where it’s at I am afraid. But that's not actually true though is it? In the 15 or so years Legion were senior I'm pretty certain divisional teams made the quarter and semi finals more than them. Legion are just an example. Explain how they'd suddenly make the championship more competitive?
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mike70
Senior Member
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Post by mike70 on Oct 29, 2023 21:51:19 GMT
Bless you, you don’t get it do you, we are not talking about winners we are talking about a competitive championship, the 3 clubs I mentioned have been in the qtr finals even semi finals more than most division sides, it’s time to end this divisional rubbish, no rhyme nor reason to it, unless you have some magical reason why we should continue to run 2 championships, burning out our best and facilitating ineptness at the other end. Just take a look at the game in stacks park today, club is where it’s at I am afraid. But that's not actually true though is it? In the 15 or so years Legion were senior I'm pretty certain divisional teams made the quarter and semi finals more than them. Legion are just an example. Explain how they'd suddenly make the championship more competitive? I believe I am correct, need to go back in time but the 3 clubs were 100% more competitive than a number of divisions, fact. Again I am talking about a better championship with these teams.
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Post by givehimaball on Oct 30, 2023 0:47:28 GMT
But that's not actually true though is it? In the 15 or so years Legion were senior I'm pretty certain divisional teams made the quarter and semi finals more than them. Legion are just an example. Explain how they'd suddenly make the championship more competitive? I believe I am correct, need to go back in time but the 3 clubs were 100% more competitive than a number of divisions, fact. Again I am talking about a better championship with these teams. If you increased the senior county championship by 4 teams, it would weaken the competiveness of the intermediate championship considerably.
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mike70
Senior Member
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Post by mike70 on Oct 30, 2023 6:01:52 GMT
I believe I am correct, need to go back in time but the 3 clubs were 100% more competitive than a number of divisions, fact. Again I am talking about a better championship with these teams. If you increased the senior county championship by 4 teams, it would weaken the competiveness of the intermediate championship considerably. Based on what we saw yesterday in the premier junior final, I would say you’re wrong, what a final, 2 teams that would compete in the intermediate. The reality why we have won so many club irelands in junior and intermediate is down to our grading of our internal champs. Enough said I guess, we play by the rules that currently exist.
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 30, 2023 8:55:51 GMT
But that's not actually true though is it? In the 15 or so years Legion were senior I'm pretty certain divisional teams made the quarter and semi finals more than them. Legion are just an example. Explain how they'd suddenly make the championship more competitive? I believe I am correct, need to go back in time but the 3 clubs were 100% more competitive than a number of divisions, fact. Again I am talking about a better championship with these teams. Again you don't give any reason as to why it would be a better championship?
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 30, 2023 8:59:37 GMT
If you increased the senior county championship by 4 teams, it would weaken the competiveness of the intermediate championship considerably. Based on what we saw yesterday in the premier junior final, I would say you’re wrong, what a final, 2 teams that would compete in the intermediate. The reality why we have won so many club irelands in junior and intermediate is down to our grading of our internal champs. Enough said I guess, we play by the rules that currently exist. Both Listowel and Ballymac have been Junior for a good few years now. If they were good enough to be Intermediate they'd be there before now. It's like the logic with Rathmore and Stacks being too good to be Intermediate if that was the case they'd et promoted back up straight away. It sounds like you don't want any club to be relegated.
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Post by onlykerry on Oct 30, 2023 10:44:30 GMT
The championship structure has varied in the last 10 years and the number of participants has gone from 20 in 2013 to the current 16. For a couple of years there were 9 divisions which resulted in a preliminary game to reduce this to 8 for the championship proper.
QF's are a common denominator and using this as the benchmark of teams who have some level of performance from year to year here are some numbers.
80 teams contested QF's with 48 being clubs and 32 being divisions - this clearly demonstrates clubs perform better.
Of the 11 clubs that made it to the QF's from 2013 to 2022 Rahilly's, Legion and Stacks contested 19 but will not be in the draw for 2024 as we all know due to their relegation in recent times. Yet Feale Rangers, Shannon Rangers who have contested three QF's in 10 years have automatic entry to the 2024 draw. Add in St Kierans and West Kerry and these four divisional sides have contested 9 QF's between them in 10 years are automatically in the 2024 draw.
I like divisions and what they bring to the championship but automatic entry at the expense of clubs who put in consistent effort is wrong. Divisions need to show respect to the county championship and earn their right to a place in the draw like everyone else.
Current system is skewed too much in the direction of divisions but guess what clubs have one vote each whereas a division can have 9 or 10 votes from their member clubs. Maybe we should start with each entry into the county championship having a single vote in deciding the structure - that would put the cat amongst the pigeons!!!!!
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pillar
Senior Member
Posts: 509
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Post by pillar on Oct 30, 2023 10:53:14 GMT
The championship structure has varied in the last 10 years and the number of participants has gone from 20 in 2013 to the current 16. For a couple of years there were 9 divisions which resulted in a preliminary game to reduce this to 8 for the championship proper. QF's are a common denominator and using this as the benchmark of teams who have some level of performance from year to year here are some numbers. 80 teams contested QF's with 48 being clubs and 32 being divisions - this clearly demonstrates clubs perform better. Of the 11 clubs that made it to the QF's from 2013 to 2022 Rahilly's, Legion and Stacks contested 19 but will not be in the draw for 2024 as we all know due to their relegation in recent times. Yet Feale Rangers, Shannon Rangers who have contested three QF's in 10 years have automatic entry to the 2024 draw. Add in St Kierans and West Kerry and these four divisional sides have contested 9 QF's between them in 10 years are automatically in the 2024 draw. I like divisions and what they bring to the championship but automatic entry at the expense of clubs who put in consistent effort is wrong. Divisions need to show respect to the county championship and earn their right to a place in the draw like everyone else. Current system is skewed too much in the direction of divisions but guess what clubs have one vote each whereas a division can have 9 or 10 votes from their member clubs. Maybe we should start with each entry into the county championship having a single vote in deciding the structure - that would put the cat amongst the pigeons!!!!! I agree that it's skewed but even within the Divisional set ups I would argue in its current form South Kerry and West Kerry have zero chance of winning a County championship in their current guise.
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 30, 2023 11:01:48 GMT
The championship structure has varied in the last 10 years and the number of participants has gone from 20 in 2013 to the current 16. For a couple of years there were 9 divisions which resulted in a preliminary game to reduce this to 8 for the championship proper. QF's are a common denominator and using this as the benchmark of teams who have some level of performance from year to year here are some numbers. 80 teams contested QF's with 48 being clubs and 32 being divisions - this clearly demonstrates clubs perform better. Of the 11 clubs that made it to the QF's from 2013 to 2022 Rahilly's, Legion and Stacks contested 19 but will not be in the draw for 2024 as we all know due to their relegation in recent times. Yet Feale Rangers, Shannon Rangers who have contested three QF's in 10 years have automatic entry to the 2024 draw. Add in St Kierans and West Kerry and these four divisional sides have contested 9 QF's between them in 10 years are automatically in the 2024 draw. I like divisions and what they bring to the championship but automatic entry at the expense of clubs who put in consistent effort is wrong. Divisions need to show respect to the county championship and earn their right to a place in the draw like everyone else. Current system is skewed too much in the direction of divisions but guess what clubs have one vote each whereas a division can have 9 or 10 votes from their member clubs. Maybe we should start with each entry into the county championship having a single vote in deciding the structure - that would put the cat amongst the pigeons!!!!! The facts always speak for themselves! Whilst I cannot see districts being reduced to one vote, I cannot see why the county championship is not seeded based on previous years performance. We have 4 groups of 4 teams randomly drawn - why not have the 4 semi finalists as No 1 seeds followed by the four beaten quarter finalists as No 2 seeds etc? This way would ensure a fairer & more equitable competition.
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 30, 2023 11:35:58 GMT
The championship structure has varied in the last 10 years and the number of participants has gone from 20 in 2013 to the current 16. For a couple of years there were 9 divisions which resulted in a preliminary game to reduce this to 8 for the championship proper. QF's are a common denominator and using this as the benchmark of teams who have some level of performance from year to year here are some numbers. 80 teams contested QF's with 48 being clubs and 32 being divisions - this clearly demonstrates clubs perform better. Of the 11 clubs that made it to the QF's from 2013 to 2022 Rahilly's, Legion and Stacks contested 19 but will not be in the draw for 2024 as we all know due to their relegation in recent times. Yet Feale Rangers, Shannon Rangers who have contested three QF's in 10 years have automatic entry to the 2024 draw. Add in St Kierans and West Kerry and these four divisional sides have contested 9 QF's between them in 10 years are automatically in the 2024 draw. I like divisions and what they bring to the championship but automatic entry at the expense of clubs who put in consistent effort is wrong. Divisions need to show respect to the county championship and earn their right to a place in the draw like everyone else. Current system is skewed too much in the direction of divisions but guess what clubs have one vote each whereas a division can have 9 or 10 votes from their member clubs. Maybe we should start with each entry into the county championship having a single vote in deciding the structure - that would put the cat amongst the pigeons!!!!! You also choose to ignore the fact that Shannon Rangers, Feale Rangers and West Kerry also got to semi finals in that time frame. But of course that's why you picked quarter-finals and not semi finals. Why not include how Ardfert, Milltown, Currow and Finigue did in that time?
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Post by percentageplay on Oct 30, 2023 11:53:29 GMT
Why if the named teams where in it make it more competitive? Legion have won the county championship once in the 40s and been in the final once since. Strand Road have won one title since the 50s and thst was over 20 years ago. Every club will have some argument as to why they shouldn't be relegated. As I've said before if teams don't get relegated we'll end up with another joke like when Mitchels refused to be relegated. It’s just a fact, it would be more competitive, none of these club teams are losing games by big margins, not like some of the divisional, that’s a fact. We all have opinions, but they don’t really matter, thems are the rules. But I can’t help wondering, sitting here in my arm chair looking at the crowd in stacks park for ballymac v listowel, st Kieran’s v Feale rangers wound not bring the crowd. Looking forward to another great club final, signing off here, as the spuds are being served before throw in. A look at last year's county championship group tables would say otherwise regarding teams loosing games by big margins, particularly KOR who took some heavy defeats. Not that the country champ should matter or come into this conversation as KOR were regulated by the senior club champ
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 30, 2023 11:54:18 GMT
The championship structure has varied in the last 10 years and the number of participants has gone from 20 in 2013 to the current 16. For a couple of years there were 9 divisions which resulted in a preliminary game to reduce this to 8 for the championship proper. QF's are a common denominator and using this as the benchmark of teams who have some level of performance from year to year here are some numbers. 80 teams contested QF's with 48 being clubs and 32 being divisions - this clearly demonstrates clubs perform better. Of the 11 clubs that made it to the QF's from 2013 to 2022 Rahilly's, Legion and Stacks contested 19 but will not be in the draw for 2024 as we all know due to their relegation in recent times. Yet Feale Rangers, Shannon Rangers who have contested three QF's in 10 years have automatic entry to the 2024 draw. Add in St Kierans and West Kerry and these four divisional sides have contested 9 QF's between them in 10 years are automatically in the 2024 draw. I like divisions and what they bring to the championship but automatic entry at the expense of clubs who put in consistent effort is wrong. Divisions need to show respect to the county championship and earn their right to a place in the draw like everyone else. Current system is skewed too much in the direction of divisions but guess what clubs have one vote each whereas a division can have 9 or 10 votes from their member clubs. Maybe we should start with each entry into the county championship having a single vote in deciding the structure - that would put the cat amongst the pigeons!!!!! You also choose to ignore the fact that Shannon Rangers, Feale Rangers and West Kerry also got to semi finals in that time frame. But of course that's why you picked quarter-finals and not semi finals. Why not include how Ardfert, Milltown, Currow and Finigue did in that time? But, but KO’R, Legion & Stacks all played in semi finals & finals too - Stacks won 2.
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 30, 2023 11:57:05 GMT
You also choose to ignore the fact that Shannon Rangers, Feale Rangers and West Kerry also got to semi finals in that time frame. But of course that's why you picked quarter-finals and not semi finals. Why not include how Ardfert, Milltown, Currow and Finigue did in that time? But, but KO’R, Legion & Stacks all played in semi finals & finals too - Stacks won 2. Yes they did what's your point?
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 30, 2023 12:02:23 GMT
It’s just a fact, it would be more competitive, none of these club teams are losing games by big margins, not like some of the divisional, that’s a fact. We all have opinions, but they don’t really matter, thems are the rules. But I can’t help wondering, sitting here in my arm chair looking at the crowd in stacks park for ballymac v listowel, st Kieran’s v Feale rangers wound not bring the crowd. Looking forward to another great club final, signing off here, as the spuds are being served before throw in. A look at last year's county championship group tables would say otherwise regarding teams loosing games by big margins, particularly KOR who took some heavy defeats. Not that the country champ should matter or come into this conversation as KOR were regulated by the senior club champ Swings & roundabouts -KO’Rs record this year was won one, lost two - lost to Spa by 2 points & Mid Kerry by one.
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 30, 2023 12:07:07 GMT
But, but KO’R, Legion & Stacks all played in semi finals & finals too - Stacks won 2. Yes they did what's your point? Greater achievement in getting to a final than a one off exception getting to a semi.
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 30, 2023 12:10:07 GMT
A look at last year's county championship group tables would say otherwise regarding teams loosing games by big margins, particularly KOR who took some heavy defeats. Not that the country champ should matter or come into this conversation as KOR were regulated by the senior club champ Swings & roundabouts -KO’Rs record this year was won one, lost two - lost to Spa by 2 points & Mid Kerry by one. But they still lost. By your logic if they lost every game by a point or two they shouldn't have been relegated.
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 30, 2023 12:13:29 GMT
Yes they did what's your point? Greater achievement in getting to a final than a one off exception getting to a semi. So an exception like Strand Road and Legion getting to the final? Seeing as between them they've been in the final 3 times in 20 years.
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 30, 2023 12:16:36 GMT
Swings & roundabouts -KO’Rs record this year was won one, lost two - lost to Spa by 2 points & Mid Kerry by one. But they still lost. By your logic if they lost every game by a point or two they shouldn't have been relegated. Where did I say that?? I am looking at performance, not relegation. It’s immaterial how you perform in county championship anyway seeing as relegation is based upon n club championship performance.
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Post by onlykerry on Oct 30, 2023 12:18:04 GMT
The championship structure has varied in the last 10 years and the number of participants has gone from 20 in 2013 to the current 16. For a couple of years there were 9 divisions which resulted in a preliminary game to reduce this to 8 for the championship proper. QF's are a common denominator and using this as the benchmark of teams who have some level of performance from year to year here are some numbers. 80 teams contested QF's with 48 being clubs and 32 being divisions - this clearly demonstrates clubs perform better. Of the 11 clubs that made it to the QF's from 2013 to 2022 Rahilly's, Legion and Stacks contested 19 but will not be in the draw for 2024 as we all know due to their relegation in recent times. Yet Feale Rangers, Shannon Rangers who have contested three QF's in 10 years have automatic entry to the 2024 draw. Add in St Kierans and West Kerry and these four divisional sides have contested 9 QF's between them in 10 years are automatically in the 2024 draw. I like divisions and what they bring to the championship but automatic entry at the expense of clubs who put in consistent effort is wrong. Divisions need to show respect to the county championship and earn their right to a place in the draw like everyone else. Current system is skewed too much in the direction of divisions but guess what clubs have one vote each whereas a division can have 9 or 10 votes from their member clubs. Maybe we should start with each entry into the county championship having a single vote in deciding the structure - that would put the cat amongst the pigeons!!!!! You also choose to ignore the fact that Shannon Rangers, Feale Rangers and West Kerry also got to semi finals in that time frame. But of course that's why you picked quarter-finals and not semi finals. Why not include how Ardfert, Milltown, Currow and Finigue did in that time? You seem to think my choice of QF's is somehow a devious plot to show divisions in a bad light - I chose QF's as a mid point in the championships which was a consistent point over the different formats. It reflects some level of progress in the competition and therefore has merit in showing teams that "contribute" or "perform" consistently in the championship year in, year out. Laune Rangers, Milltown/Castlemaine, Kilcummin are all club sides that have 1 QF appears over that period and who lost the right to be in the championship - Shannon Rangers with 1 QF are guaranteed a place as long as they wish. Every side, club or division, should earn the right to participate in the county championship is my basic point - can you really make a case for something different.
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 30, 2023 12:21:48 GMT
Greater achievement in getting to a final than a one off exception getting to a semi. So an exception like Strand Road and Legion getting to the final? Seeing as between them they've been in the final 3 times in 20 years. But you are quoting once off events like FR, SR & WK getting to semis - yes they did but were not seen again & were beaten. KO’R were in two semi finals in that 10 year period, lost quarter finals to Dr Crokes , the eventual winners, lost quarter final to EK after extra time, again eventual winners - none of the divisional sides you mentioned were near that level of consistency or performance.
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 30, 2023 12:49:59 GMT
So an exception like Strand Road and Legion getting to the final? Seeing as between them they've been in the final 3 times in 20 years. But you are quoting once off events like FR, SR & WK getting to semis - yes they did but were not seen again & were beaten. KO’R were in two semi finals in that 10 year period, lost quarter finals to Dr Crokes , the eventual winners, lost quarter final to EK after extra time, again eventual winners - none of the divisional sides you mentioned were near that level of consistency or performance. West Kerry lost to Crokes twice in the semi-final when they went on to win it. So again your point is what exactly?
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 30, 2023 12:52:40 GMT
But you are quoting once off events like FR, SR & WK getting to semis - yes they did but were not seen again & were beaten. KO’R were in two semi finals in that 10 year period, lost quarter finals to Dr Crokes , the eventual winners, lost quarter final to EK after extra time, again eventual winners - none of the divisional sides you mentioned were near that level of consistency or performance. West Kerry lost to Crokes twice in the semi-final when they went on to win it. So again your point is what exactly? Consistency & performance as stated.
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 30, 2023 12:54:52 GMT
But they still lost. By your logic if they lost every game by a point or two they shouldn't have been relegated. Where did I say that?? I am looking at performance, not relegation. It’s immaterial how you perform in county championship anyway seeing as relegation is based upon n club championship performance. The club championships where Strand Road lost all their games? So in 2023 Strand Road played seven championship games and only win one.
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 30, 2023 12:56:45 GMT
West Kerry lost to Crokes twice in the semi-final when they went on to win it. So again your point is what exactly? Consistency & performance as stated. You said West Kerry got to one semi final. So what's the difference between that and what you're saying about club teams?
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 30, 2023 13:09:19 GMT
Consistency & performance as stated. You said West Kerry got to one semi final. So what's the difference between that and what you're saying about club teams? Consistency - one semi final in 10 years is but an exception, a one off - they failed to field a team this year vs South Kerry. Is that acceptable? When was the last time a club team failed to fulfill a fixture in the county championship? I have compared that to KO’R & their performances; KO’R also won a county league, a Kerry club championship, a Munster club championship in that period. Stacks also outperformed the division you are quoting - Munster club, Kerry club & 2 county championships.
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 30, 2023 13:11:14 GMT
Where did I say that?? I am looking at performance, not relegation. It’s immaterial how you perform in county championship anyway seeing as relegation is based upon n club championship performance. The club championships where Strand Road lost all their games? So in 2023 Strand Road played seven championship games and only win one. Correct, fulfilling all their fixtures - take a look at last year though - Kerry & Munster club champions - different team this year due in part to the loss of 8/9 players .
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Post by edgeofthesquare on Oct 30, 2023 13:27:20 GMT
Performances of clubs vs performances of divisions is irrelevant. The makeup of the county championship is the strongest 8 clubs and 8 divisions made up of all the other clubs. Clubs compete against themselves to be in the county championship. Those arguing in favour of the clubs above - what do you want to become of poor performing divisional teams? A club team who are relegated go into the intermediate championship and join their division for the county championship. If you’re trying to relegate a division it just means they play no football.
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 30, 2023 14:28:07 GMT
The club championships where Strand Road lost all their games? So in 2023 Strand Road played seven championship games and only win one. Correct, fulfilling all their fixtures - take a look at last year though - Kerry & Munster club champions - different team this year due in part to the loss of 8/9 players . Last year has nothing to do with it. Based on this year why shouldn't Strand Road been relegated?
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 30, 2023 14:42:06 GMT
Correct, fulfilling all their fixtures - take a look at last year though - Kerry & Munster club champions - different team this year due in part to the loss of 8/9 players . Last year has nothing to do with it. Based on this year why shouldn't Strand Road been relegated? No reason - however, if you look at the tables, Strand Road finished ahead of Feale & Shannon Rangers, South Kerry, West Kerry & St Brendans Board - St Brendans board were the worst team in the championship. My question remains however - Is it acceptable that a team give a walkover in the county championships?!
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Post by onlykerry on Oct 30, 2023 14:57:32 GMT
Performances of clubs vs performances of divisions is irrelevant. The makeup of the county championship is the strongest 8 clubs and 8 divisions made up of all the other clubs. Clubs compete against themselves to be in the county championship. Those arguing in favour of the clubs above - what do you want to become of poor performing divisional teams? A club team who are relegated go into the intermediate championship and join their division for the county championship. If you’re trying to relegate a division it just means they play no football. The CURRENT makeup of the county championship is 8 clubs and 8 divisions and I find it difficult to agree that any teams performance in the county championship is irrelevant. The make up of teams competing in the county championship has varied,- both at club and divisional level, over the years. Divisions like Eoin Rua, Na Fianna, Killarney and more recently Kenmare District have competed while dozens of clubs have come and gone with a very small number being ever present. I think Rahillys were the longest "ever present" (going back to the late 1920's) brigade. The current debate is as a result of the County Board restructuring of the competition in 2016 when the number 16 became the deciding factor. Before that the number of clubs in county championship was always greater than the number of divisions - typically 11 or 12 clubs with 8 or 9 divisional sides. In the most recent revision, Divisions were deemed sacrosanct with automatic entry to the championship with the only proviso being 8 was the maximum which gave rise to a Divisional playoff in 2016 & 2017 to eliminate 1 division in a preliminary round. Clubs lost out big time with a limit of 8 being imposed. The championship will continue to evolve and change and the current arguments centre on whether divisions automatic right to enter should be maintained or whether they should be required to qualify in some manner - I believe the performance of some divisions takes away from the integrity of the competition and an absolute right of a division to a place in the draw needs to be seriously reviewed.
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