diego
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Posts: 1,099
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Post by diego on Sept 3, 2016 2:20:14 GMT
I thought this thread would be closed by now. Simple fact is Dublin are a better team. That's five wins on the trot now for Dublin counting the league win. Sad reading for Kerry fans. Hopefully now some will retire. I was hoping Fitzmaurice would step down as far as I know he is staying on. Stats don't lie. Kerry went almost 14 minutes without scoring a point to start the game. That means six Forwards and two midfielders could not kick a point. Inexcusable. A county player can't kick the ball over the bar. Kerry got two lucky goals one a gift. They went in leading by 5 points. They came out for the second half and went almost another 15 minutes without scoring. That's inexcusable. I can't understand how your are supposed to be the best in your county and you can't kick a point for that long. We got outscored by 22 points to 16 points. Fitzmaurice takes off our best forward Paul Geaney and replaces him with a 36 year old defender. Who played for 10 minutes and didn't touch the ball once. Another great move by our great manager. Not alone can we not beat them on the field but we can't beat them on the line either. Let's close this thread down now. It's time. The Kerry minor thread is open I encourage kerry supporters to go and give the lads a bit of support and respect. A fantastic young bunch of lads. They are actually in an All Ireland final. Not like this bunch. Why do I always wonder what age you are at the end of reading your posts? Obviously well informed on the game around the county, but there seems to be a loss of perspective or something. Everything so black and white. Players are either the real deal or past it/gone/not good enough. "They are actually in an All Ireland final. Not like this bunch" I think "this bunch" have done enough in the Kerry jersey to earn a bit more respect than that.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Sept 3, 2016 3:48:39 GMT
I thought this thread would be closed by now. Simple fact is Dublin are a better team. That's five wins on the trot now for Dublin counting the league win. Sad reading for Kerry fans. Hopefully now some will retire. I was hoping Fitzmaurice would step down as far as I know he is staying on. Stats don't lie. Kerry went almost 14 minutes without scoring a point to start the game. That means six Forwards and two midfielders could not kick a point. Inexcusable. A county player can't kick the ball over the bar. Kerry got two lucky goals one a gift. They went in leading by 5 points. They came out for the second half and went almost another 15 minutes without scoring. That's inexcusable. I can't understand how your are supposed to be the best in your county and you can't kick a point for that long. We got outscored by 22 points to 16 points. Fitzmaurice takes off our best forward Paul Geaney and replaces him with a 36 year old defender. Who played for 10 minutes and didn't touch the ball once. Another great move by our great manager. Not alone can we not beat them on the field but we can't beat them on the line either. Let's close this thread down now. It's time. The Kerry minor thread is open I encourage kerry supporters to go and give the lads a bit of support and respect. A fantastic young bunch of lads. They are actually in an All Ireland final. Not like this bunch. We prevented Dublin from scoring for long periods, they had wides (i.e. 'county players who couldn't kick points), they got lucky scores and ref decisions, yet we could have done them. Mistake re Geaney, Clux erred ... The only thing wrong was that our leaders didn't have the legs, did we have better options? AO'M and KD over the hill had good shifts. What would you think should have been done that would have won it?
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Post by kerryfanatic on Sept 3, 2016 7:23:59 GMT
I thought this thread would be closed by now. Simple fact is Dublin are a better team. That's five wins on the trot now for Dublin counting the league win. Sad reading for Kerry fans. Hopefully now some will retire. I was hoping Fitzmaurice would step down as far as I know he is staying on. Stats don't lie. Kerry went almost 14 minutes without scoring a point to start the game. That means six Forwards and two midfielders could not kick a point. Inexcusable. A county player can't kick the ball over the bar. Kerry got two lucky goals one a gift. They went in leading by 5 points. They came out for the second half and went almost another 15 minutes without scoring. That's inexcusable. I can't understand how your are supposed to be the best in your county and you can't kick a point for that long. We got outscored by 22 points to 16 points. Fitzmaurice takes off our best forward Paul Geaney and replaces him with a 36 year old defender. Who played for 10 minutes and didn't touch the ball once. Another great move by our great manager. Not alone can we not beat them on the field but we can't beat them on the line either. Let's close this thread down now. It's time. The Kerry minor thread is open I encourage kerry supporters to go and give the lads a bit of support and respect. A fantastic young bunch of lads. They are actually in an All Ireland final. Not like this bunch. So negative and disrespectful.....fitzmaurice and the lads deserve a lot better than ur negativity.
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Post by wayupnorth on Sept 3, 2016 8:06:59 GMT
I thought this thread would be closed by now. Simple fact is Dublin are a better team. That's five wins on the trot now for Dublin counting the league win. Sad reading for Kerry fans. Hopefully now some will retire. I was hoping Fitzmaurice would step down as far as I know he is staying on. Stats don't lie. Kerry went almost 14 minutes without scoring a point to start the game. That means six Forwards and two midfielders could not kick a point. Inexcusable. A county player can't kick the ball over the bar. Kerry got two lucky goals one a gift. They went in leading by 5 points. They came out for the second half and went almost another 15 minutes without scoring. That's inexcusable. I can't understand how your are supposed to be the best in your county and you can't kick a point for that long. We got outscored by 22 points to 16 points. Fitzmaurice takes off our best forward Paul Geaney and replaces him with a 36 year old defender. Who played for 10 minutes and didn't touch the ball once. Another great move by our great manager. Not alone can we not beat them on the field but we can't beat them on the line either. Let's close this thread down now. It's time. The Kerry minor thread is open I encourage kerry supporters to go and give the lads a bit of support and respect. A fantastic young bunch of lads. They are actually in an All Ireland final. Not like this bunch. A valid point of view that should be considered. You say that stats don't lie which is correct and every statistic in your post is verifiably true. However the problem with statistics is not in stating them but in interpreting them and it is the interpretation that because of these bald facts that Kerry had a poor performance and Fitzmaurice must go that I have a problem with. If we were so poor, how were we able to keep the Dubs in check for so long? The only explanation according to your interpretation is that the were a slightly less poor team themselves. Lucky goals - perhaps but an element of luck comes into every game and good teams create the circumstances that can lead to lucky breaks which (my interpretation) is exactly what happened here. If Fitzmaurice should go, you are very silent about who should succeed him. The obvious candidate is someone who also lost against Dublin his last time out and I have to admit that I would have been one of the "last chance saloon" brigade before the match but not now. I hope the rumours that he is staying on are true and we can beat the Dubs in the 2017 Final. Since Fitzmaurice took charge nobody else has beaten us in the Championship (statistic). As far as closing the thread is concerned, like most threads it should close of its own accord. Posters are not limited to single threads or even forced to read threads they have lost interest in or perhaps find too painful. There is even a thread about the 2017 campaign which is curiously undersubscribed at present. And of course we will all be shouting for the Minors!
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Post by ddtinexile on Sept 3, 2016 8:45:13 GMT
In open play...Kerry 2. 10. Dublin 0 12. Frees Kerry 0 4 Dublin 0 10.
Not bad for " this bunch"
What a horrible way to describe these Kerry players who have given their all for the Green and Gold.
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 3, 2016 9:01:45 GMT
It is 41 years since 1975 when Paidi from Ard A Bhothair bursted onto the scene. It was poignant watching Marc taking what looked like one last look around Croke Park on Sunday. One or other from this clan have featured in Kerrys last 15 All Ireland wins (i think its 15) not to mention all the other close shaves.
Thanks for the memories and for the great days of joy and happiness. The down days are what makes those great days feel great.
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Post by wayupnorth on Sept 3, 2016 9:14:30 GMT
It is 41 years since 1975 when Paidi from Ard A Bhothair bursted onto the scene. It was poignant watching Marc taking what looked like one last look around Croke Park on Sunday. One or other from this clan have featured in Kerrys last 15 All Ireland wins (i think its 15) not to mention all the other close shaves. Thanks for the memories and for the great days of joy and happiness. The down days are what makes those great days feel great. Marc should stay on for a few more Championship games if only to become the third O Se brother to break the appearances record - we owe him at least that - if he wants it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2016 9:33:17 GMT
It is 41 years since 1975 when Paidi from Ard A Bhothair bursted onto the scene. It was poignant watching Marc taking what looked like one last look around Croke Park on Sunday. One or other from this clan have featured in Kerrys last 15 All Ireland wins (i think its 15) not to mention all the other close shaves. Thanks for the memories and for the great days of joy and happiness. The down days are what makes those great days feel great. Marc should stay on for a few more Championship games if only to become the third O Se brother to break the appearances record - we owe him at least that - if he wants it. No we don't. Given Marc's infrequent appearances this year, I would be surprised if he stayed and even more surprised if the appearance record was even a consideration.
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Post by ciarrailar on Sept 3, 2016 10:32:54 GMT
I, at first thought this was a fair shoulder to shoulder charge but having seen it again it was a frontal charge, perhaps not intentional but a foul nonetheless. This would have given Kerry a free in and a certain point as it was in a handy position. Game all square at that stage.... Instead, Dublin go straight down the pitch and score.... someone commented above about how many steps O'Brien took to fist his point. Reality is that he was being fouled all the way and refs will always leave that go. How many did MacMenamon take in 2011 to score the goal? 10... Watch it back and count.... Joe McQ wasn't going to overrule that though with the hill hopping and blue fever hitting climax..... We need stronger refs with no ties to the counties that are competing. Mcquillan is from ulster. He reffed Dublin v Mayo in 2012. We've been on both ends of his decision making. Refs aren't robots. He may be from Cavan but he has been brought in by Dublin to referee their A vs B games. Couple of things here.... Why have an inter county referee in to do this when there must be dozens of qualified referees in the county to do it? Mmmm maybe it's handy to have a close relationship with one of the top referees in the country? Perhaps he might be reffing one of the big matches your involved in.... As an inter county referee he should know better and stay away from this set up to avoid conflict of interest. I'm sure he isn't travelling from Cavan to Dublin for nothing? Or, is he living in Dublin? They don't call him Dublin Joe for nothing.
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Post by thebluepanther on Sept 3, 2016 11:58:07 GMT
This was a game Dublin controlled for 27 min's, 4 points ahead Philly had a great goal chance saved, Kerry were at 6s and 7s . But a bit of bravery in tactics by EF, coupled by a bad decision by Cluxton yielded a goal. Then another goal. So the 27 min's of superiority counted for nothing. Second half we dominated when we came back out and got 6 of the next 7 scores. We used the spare man to attack any ball going towards the middle from kickouts so we had 3 on 2 on a few occasions and yielded points. We're level everything to play for . Fitzmaurice brings on JoD and BJK , we bring on Mannion for John Small who was having a great game but he on a yellow and also name had been noted . Flynn (who was injured coming into the game )goes off for Paddy Andrews . Dublin are attacking constantly but Kerry are tagging on points on the counter . Gavin brings on O GARA and puts Dermo back to midfield. Crowely now doesn't know where to mark. Dermo misses a handy point and starts getting on a lot of ball around Midfield, ye feel Dublin are going to get the scores required , Contrary to belief o Gara is not put on to push up on O Mahony ,but Griffin has to deal with him. Kerry aren't going away and from short kickouts go ahead on 70mins , Fitz gets Marc ready and thinks we will flood defence and tac on another point which could be enough. Rock equalises as he is coming on. Dublin then go ahead , But this for me was the difference , Gavin takes off Brogan and puts on Costello and not a defender as Fitzmaurice has done when minutes earlier Kerry had gone ahead. Those are the fine lines , sometimes fortune favours the brave .
As regards Refs decisions neither team were innocenot, Costello blocked Beaglaigh making a run , O Gara did same to Griffin I think. Connolly blocked Crowely at one stage. Donnacha can be seen going in on Cluxton after ball in released on 47 mins, Gooch can be seen clearly catching Kev mc after he releases the ball on 68 min's, Donaghy hit John small a sneaky dig and then when Small hit him back he went down on one knee . Enright should of got black. Small was lucky not to get sent of for a second booking. Either way both Teams left it on the pitch and great to see them embracing after the game.
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Post by colinsworth1 on Sept 3, 2016 13:32:24 GMT
In open play...Kerry 2. 10. Dublin 0 12. Frees Kerry 0 4 Dublin 0 10. Not bad for " this bunch" What a horrible way to describe these Kerry players who have given their all for the Green and Gold. Ddtinexile 4 frees for Kerry. 10 for Dublin 13. Kerry. To. 22 Dubln Is the total free count. 4 versus 10 is what the teams scored from frees or 45 s is that correct ?
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Post by ciarrailar on Sept 3, 2016 13:49:09 GMT
I thought this thread would be closed by now. Simple fact is Dublin are a better team. That's five wins on the trot now for Dublin counting the league win. Sad reading for Kerry fans. Hopefully now some will retire. I was hoping Fitzmaurice would step down as far as I know he is staying on. Stats don't lie. Kerry went almost 14 minutes without scoring a point to start the game. That means six Forwards and two midfielders could not kick a point. Inexcusable. A county player can't kick the ball over the bar. Kerry got two lucky goals one a gift. They went in leading by 5 points. They came out for the second half and went almost another 15 minutes without scoring. That's inexcusable. I can't understand how your are supposed to be the best in your county and you can't kick a point for that long. We got outscored by 22 points to 16 points. Fitzmaurice takes off our best forward Paul Geaney and replaces him with a 36 year old defender. Who played for 10 minutes and didn't touch the ball once. Another great move by our great manager. Not alone can we not beat them on the field but we can't beat them on the line either. Let's close this thread down now. It's time. The Kerry minor thread is open I encourage kerry supporters to go and give the lads a bit of support and respect. A fantastic young bunch of lads. They are actually in an All Ireland final. Not like this bunch. Harsh and disrespectful. For shame!
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kerryexile
Fanatical Member
Whether you believe that you can, or that you can't, you are right anyway.
Posts: 1,123
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Post by kerryexile on Sept 3, 2016 14:05:48 GMT
I thought this thread would be closed by now. Simple fact is Dublin are a better team. That's five wins on the trot now for Dublin counting the league win. Sad reading for Kerry fans. Hopefully now some will retire. I was hoping Fitzmaurice would step down as far as I know he is staying on. Stats don't lie. Kerry went almost 14 minutes without scoring a point to start the game. That means six Forwards and two midfielders could not kick a point. Inexcusable. A county player can't kick the ball over the bar. Kerry got two lucky goals one a gift. They went in leading by 5 points. They came out for the second half and went almost another 15 minutes without scoring. That's inexcusable. I can't understand how your are supposed to be the best in your county and you can't kick a point for that long. We got outscored by 22 points to 16 points. Fitzmaurice takes off our best forward Paul Geaney and replaces him with a 36 year old defender. Who played for 10 minutes and didn't touch the ball once. Another great move by our great manager. Not alone can we not beat them on the field but we can't beat them on the line either. Let's close this thread down now. It's time. The Kerry minor thread is open I encourage kerry supporters to go and give the lads a bit of support and respect. A fantastic young bunch of lads. They are actually in an All Ireland final. Not like this bunch. A valid point of view that should be considered. You say that stats don't lie which is correct and every statistic in your post is verifiably true. However the problem with statistics is not in stating them but in interpreting them and it is the interpretation that because of these bald facts that Kerry had a poor performance and Fitzmaurice must go that I have a problem with. If we were so poor, how were we able to keep the Dubs in check for so long? The only explanation according to your interpretation is that the were a slightly less poor team themselves. Lucky goals - perhaps but an element of luck comes into every game and good teams create the circumstances that can lead to lucky breaks which (my interpretation) is exactly what happened here. If Fitzmaurice should go, you are very silent about who should succeed him. The obvious candidate is someone who also lost against Dublin his last time out and I have to admit that I would have been one of the "last chance saloon" brigade before the match but not now. I hope the rumours that he is staying on are true and we can beat the Dubs in the 2017 Final. Since Fitzmaurice took charge nobody else has beaten us in the Championship (statistic). As far as closing the thread is concerned, like most threads it should close of its own accord. Posters are not limited to single threads or even forced to read threads they have lost interest in or perhaps find too painful. There is even a thread about the 2017 campaign which is curiously undersubscribed at present. And of course we will all be shouting for the Minors! In the above 2 posts lie the seed of a huge debate about Kerry football. Over several decades Kerry have encountered different styles that they weren’t ready for and were beaten. Down in the ‘60s is a good example. But they went away licked their wound and came back with Kerry football that brought victory over any style. Armagh and Tyrone beat them with a style that they weren't ready for in the noughties. Then Kerry management reacted by taking on board a lot of the Ulster tactics and this did bring success. Eamonn was part of the that team so in his formative years he was exposed to that type of football. His teams now have that stamp. It now seems that whoever manages Kerry will come from that background. So it appears that native Kerry DNA propagated by Mick O’Dwyer has been contaminated. With the demise of Ulster teams in recent years Kerry have not gone back to being Kerry. If they did there would be no long periods without a score. No forward could possibly have a role that is more important than scoring. I think this is what Nacrocaigh is bemoaning. I would think there are many of a certain age group that would agree with him. But just like real life there is an island where the original species survived and flourished. It is called Liam Kerins. He trained under O’Dwyer and still has that football philosophy. I could see the positivity in the Tipperary team against Galway this year. The compliments by O’Rourke to Kerins last Sunday night were well deserved. I am a great admirer of Eamonn and have no problem with him staying on but he can only coach the game he knows. When I look to the horizon and see David Clifford, Sean O’Shea, Conor Geaney, Mark O’Connor, Jason Foley, Killian Spillane, Brian O’Beaglaoich coming into view I find it tantalising to think what they could achieve if exposed to the O’Dwyer philosophy.
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Post by ddtinexile on Sept 3, 2016 14:06:31 GMT
What I meant was Kerry got 4 points from frees Dublin got 10. We won on open play by 4 points. Beaten on frees by by 6 points. All those handy frees and 45's counted at the end of the day.
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Post by wayupnorth on Sept 3, 2016 16:21:35 GMT
A valid point of view that should be considered. You say that stats don't lie which is correct and every statistic in your post is verifiably true. However the problem with statistics is not in stating them but in interpreting them and it is the interpretation that because of these bald facts that Kerry had a poor performance and Fitzmaurice must go that I have a problem with. If we were so poor, how were we able to keep the Dubs in check for so long? The only explanation according to your interpretation is that the were a slightly less poor team themselves. Lucky goals - perhaps but an element of luck comes into every game and good teams create the circumstances that can lead to lucky breaks which (my interpretation) is exactly what happened here. If Fitzmaurice should go, you are very silent about who should succeed him. The obvious candidate is someone who also lost against Dublin his last time out and I have to admit that I would have been one of the "last chance saloon" brigade before the match but not now. I hope the rumours that he is staying on are true and we can beat the Dubs in the 2017 Final. Since Fitzmaurice took charge nobody else has beaten us in the Championship (statistic). As far as closing the thread is concerned, like most threads it should close of its own accord. Posters are not limited to single threads or even forced to read threads they have lost interest in or perhaps find too painful. There is even a thread about the 2017 campaign which is curiously undersubscribed at present. And of course we will all be shouting for the Minors! In the above 2 posts lie the seed of a huge debate about Kerry football. Over several decades Kerry have encountered different styles that they weren’t ready for and were beaten. Down in the ‘60s is a good example. But they went away licked their wound and came back with Kerry football that brought victory over any style. Armagh and Tyrone beat them with a style that they weren't ready for in the noughties. Then Kerry management reacted by taking on board a lot of the Ulster tactics and this did bring success. Eamonn was part of the that team so in his formative years he was exposed to that type of football. His teams now have that stamp. It now seems that whoever manages Kerry will come from that background. So it appears that native Kerry DNA propagated by Mick O’Dwyer has been contaminated. With the demise of Ulster teams in recent years Kerry have not gone back to being Kerry. If they did there would be no long periods without a score. No forward could possibly have a role that is more important than scoring. I think this is what Nacrocaigh is bemoaning. I would think there are many of a certain age group that would agree with him. But just like real life there is an island where the original species survived and flourished. It is called Liam Kerins. He trained under O’Dwyer and still has that football philosophy. I could see the positivity in the Tipperary team against Galway this year. The compliments by O’Rourke to Kerins last Sunday night were well deserved. I am a great admirer of Eamonn and have no problem with him staying on but he can only coach the game he knows. When I look to the horizon and see David Clifford, Sean O’Shea, Conor Geaney, Mark O’Connor, Jason Foley, Killian Spillane, Brian O’Beaglaoich coming into view I find it tantalising to think what they could achieve if exposed to the O’Dwyer philosophy. That's a very thoughtful and interesting post and shows why this thread should not be shut down yet. You say that the true Kerry DNA was with Mick O'Dwyer but in his own day (and I'm old enough to remember it) Mick wasn't particularly seen as a traditionalist. He caused a massive clear out to create his "team of bachelors" and his adaptation of the handpass was far from traditional. If you want to go for true Kerry DNA you have to go back to Dick Fitz and Dr Eamonn; to "catch and kick" and zonal play but I don't think that any of us think that success lies in that direction. Here in Antrim I have come across some very old timers who still bemoan the fact that their great team of the 40's was crushed by Kerry tradition. They haven't recovered since! But most other innovators have been overcome eventually by adaptation not a return to tradition. (Apart from Down) Armagh;Tyrone;Donegal even the Dublin team of the 70's. You could say the key to the Kerry DNA is adaptation not standing still or regressing. Liam Kerins is a fine manager and has worked wonders for Tipp and Limerick but he is no Mick O'Dwyer. As for the minors, remember it's a different game:10 minutes shorter with young and inexperienced players thus much more suited to open football in the "traditional Kerry style.
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Post by brucewayne on Sept 3, 2016 17:27:11 GMT
Bit of a savaging there for nacrocaigh? While the terms used to express the underperformance of the Kingdom's attack weren't optimum, I agree that this is a problem. The last time you could honestly say that our forwards were performing to their potential was in 2014. Declan O' Sullivan's absence has been keenly felt since then. There is a reluctance there to take the shot on. More often then not it is common practice to hold on to the ball too much while attacking opportunities dwindle. We have lethal forwards, it just seems that, collectively, they are producing performances that are below the standard that is the sum of the parts.
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Post by misteallaigh abú on Sept 3, 2016 18:35:03 GMT
In open play...Kerry 2. 10. Dublin 0 12. Frees Kerry 0 4 Dublin 0 10. Not bad for " this bunch" What a horrible way to describe these Kerry players who have given their all for the Green and Gold. Very well put.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Sept 4, 2016 22:30:36 GMT
Bit of a savaging there for nacrocaigh? While the terms used to express the underperformance of the Kingdom's attack weren't optimum, I agree that this is a problem. The last time you could honestly say that our forwards were performing to their potential was in 2014. Declan O' Sullivan's absence has been keenly felt since then. There is a reluctance there to take the shot on. More often then not it is common practice to hold on to the ball too much while attacking opportunities dwindle. We have lethal forwards, it just seems that, collectively, they are producing performances that are below the standard that is the sum of the parts. Apologies for being so late to add to this thread. Commiserations to anyone here who wants it. I quoted the above post because it higlighted something that I noticed in 2011 and that I kept coming back to - hesitance to take on a score. Now whether it really is of significance, or whether it's just an aspect that can occur when a team is struggling to get a clear chance, tiring significantly, or just that the game has changed to where players play the percentages much more, who knows, it's one of those chicken/egg type arguments. But for the sake of honest opinion, I recall one play late in the 2011 All-I final that has stuck in my memory: The scores are level I think. The game is low-scoring, but no-one would describe it as really negative or poor quality, or that the teams lacked conviction. The overriding sense is that both have thrown alot at each other but that it has broken fairly even, and the modern tactics of withdrawing half-forwards at times, along with some very high-standard defending has kept this game very tight. Dublin are defending en-masse but zonally, scrambling/swarming as pacey players like Darran OS & BJK make the incisions. After one such, the ball is swept laterally, like so many possessions in recent years, to Killian Young, who is in acres of space out to the left. He could have swung a shot, it wasn't an easy angle but the distance was ok and he had the space. But he gave it to Gooch, who had no space. The chance was pretty much lost as Dublin scrambled across, and reset until an error was forced. What always struck me as odd was why Young didn't take it on. Yes Gooch was on form, and was Gooch, he had not long prior to this stuck over a beautiful score after doing none other than Philly McMahon up like a kipper (watch that dummy & score again and look at McMahon smiling ruefully as he puts in a losing body language chase). But from my lifetime of watching Kerry, I was really surprised. It highlighted for me a certain cautiousness that had become part of the Kerry play since the tactics changed to deal with Tyrone's swarm defence. This to me was most noticeably from the 2009 league final on. Now maybe it means nothing much, maybe Killian was knackered and his confidence was jolted from the mishandled ball & interception that preceded the Dublin goal. But since that game, that moment I have seen many other examples of this type of play. And it was the lateral passing/pressure from the swarming opposition that led to the two scores that tied up the game. Now it must also be said that other teams employ this type of play, especially in response to Donegal of recent vintage, and Dublin themselves were caught out in both the Qtr and semi-finals this year, for example. And Kerry dealt ably with a Tyrone team last year that had plenty of momentum, and swarming etc, in the last 10 minutes. So is it simply a question of the quality of the opposition defending & tackling? Last sunday was not a great game, though it had great periods of play, and some really top notch scores, and was one hell of a battle. Some of Kerry's ball in and running and play of their forwards, especially in the first half, even when they were struggling, was brilliant to watch. It was of a standard well above anything I've seen in the rest of the summer so far. There were few if any wasted balls in. The first half took on a remarkable likeness to the 2014 semi-final Donegal-Dublin. By half-time I was convinced Kerry would win, simply because of two things, the calamitous nature of the turnaround (10 points in 14 minutes!) for Dublin, the fact that it was mainly involving Cluxton, and the fact that it came just before half-time, similarly to 2014 (and the other example I can think of, the 2000 Leinster Final). It also brought back memories of 1978. Yet I wasn't shocked by Dublin fighting back of course, they had to throw everything to defend the title, what I saw as being one last great effort not to let the title slip like before. But when once again Kerry re-established a lead of 3 points I really felt the game was up for us, that we had thrown our best at it, and Kerry had regained the ascendancy (I also think there was a big moment after Dublin drew level the first time, a passage of play where we could have taken the lead but didn't and Kerry did). So in those last 15 minutes or so, what made the difference (s)? I think Kerry tired a bit more than Dublin. They didn't have the subs with the required impact. They depended a bit too much on players that didn't have the legs, who should not have been in that position. JOD didn't quite look fit, him at his best was a huge loss to Kerry. Dublin were desperate to win this game, alot of talk about hunger in the lead up, Dublin were able to match Kerry's desire which was enough to give them the chance to win. If this had been 2014 Kerry would have won. Dublin learned huge lessons from that year, and learned alot about Kerry from 2013 & last year. Kerry showed that last year's final was an aberration and that they were really up for it this time. Gooch still looks masterly when not swarmed or knackered. Kerry were unlucky not to get the free on Crowley. As for the other contentious issues I will address those another day if anyone wants to still debate them. Overall, while it's little consolation to Kerry people, a team that was still relying on a few lads that were possibly past their best by 2013, and one of whom was injured from fairly early in the game (Donaghy may not be our favourite Kerry player by a long shot but I did think it was a sad sight to see the man crying to be taking off), did very well. Kerry have managed to not drop their standard hardly at all, even through the middle of what will in time be seen as transitional and 'down' years in the greater scheme of things. This will stand to them. It did in 2014, after their performance in 2013. And it did this year, after defending the title to the final last year. Plus they layed the Tyrone bogey to rest. For us it was just about winning when things went wrong. It layed the 2014 semi-final trauma to rest. It begs alot of questions. Mayo's route to the final leaves me fearing that we will go in as massive favourites and and go down as the team that blew it when Mayo finally broke their famine. It could be something like 2011 in reverse for us. But so be it, bring it on. Finally, whilst I have gone a long way about saying that it's never just one thing that explains complicated situations, if I had to put my finger on one major thing that Kerry have lacked the last few years, it has been a leader in the mould of Darragh O'Sé.
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fitz
Fanatical Member
Red sky at night get off my land
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Post by fitz on Sept 5, 2016 0:30:13 GMT
Just back now from the week's reflection and recovery.
Poor spirited post Na Crocaigh. The fact that the game is level after 71.5 minutes, neutralizes a lot of the assertions, in your post. Bottom line whist being an astute and knowledgeable source in general and on the club scene in particular,imo your posts on the county seniors are by pattern very negative and only some of which are factually backed up. I thought our lads ran themselves into the ground, and they did perform. I was seriously proud of them all. The fact is Dublin are at present and for the last 4 years the better team.
2-14 wins nearly every game of football that will be ever played. We could have won this game, but at key moments in last 10 mins we made bad decisions, shot poorly and got turned over a lot from serious Dublin defensive work. I agree we definitely tired more at the finish and if there was extra time I think Dublin would have pulled away.
Anecdotally, we don't seem to have had much rub of the green in the closing stages of our last 4 Championship encounters now with Dublin. Maybe once we make more of our own luck, this will change.
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MeathExile
Full Member
I wonder, is there a goal in this game??
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Post by MeathExile on Sept 5, 2016 12:37:22 GMT
Nice post Rashers - very thoughtful as usual.Good luck in the final, although I don't think you will need it!
Watching Tipp hurlers yesterday with 5 newbies on board, really brings home what youth and pace can add to a team. I am really looking forward to us trying out new lads next year. My only fear is that Eamonn has been quite conservative so far in this regard, although the fresh faces on our last 3 subs in the program was great to see! Assuming Marc, Aidan, Donaghy depart, there is plenty of scope to add youth, as well as the likes of Brendan O S and Alan Fitz who were unlucky with injuries this year, both of whom look well able for this level of football.
Na Crocaigh - you are obviously deeply disappointed - better to stay away from the keyboard until you calm down...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 13:17:09 GMT
If Fitzmaurice and Company stay on we're doomed. No All Ireland for a while i'm afraid.
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Post by Dermot on Sept 5, 2016 13:28:06 GMT
In the above 2 posts lie the seed of a huge debate about Kerry football. Over several decades Kerry have encountered different styles that they weren’t ready for and were beaten. Down in the ‘60s is a good example. But they went away licked their wound and came back with Kerry football that brought victory over any style. Armagh and Tyrone beat them with a style that they weren't ready for in the noughties. Then Kerry management reacted by taking on board a lot of the Ulster tactics and this did bring success. Eamonn was part of the that team so in his formative years he was exposed to that type of football. His teams now have that stamp. It now seems that whoever manages Kerry will come from that background. So it appears that native Kerry DNA propagated by Mick O’Dwyer has been contaminated. With the demise of Ulster teams in recent years Kerry have not gone back to being Kerry. If they did there would be no long periods without a score. No forward could possibly have a role that is more important than scoring. I think this is what Nacrocaigh is bemoaning. I would think there are many of a certain age group that would agree with him. But just like real life there is an island where the original species survived and flourished. It is called Liam Kerins. He trained under O’Dwyer and still has that football philosophy. I could see the positivity in the Tipperary team against Galway this year. The compliments by O’Rourke to Kerins last Sunday night were well deserved. I am a great admirer of Eamonn and have no problem with him staying on but he can only coach the game he knows. When I look to the horizon and see David Clifford, Sean O’Shea, Conor Geaney, Mark O’Connor, Jason Foley, Killian Spillane, Brian O’Beaglaoich coming into view I find it tantalising to think what they could achieve if exposed to the O’Dwyer philosophy. That's a very thoughtful and interesting post and shows why this thread should not be shut down yet. You say that the true Kerry DNA was with Mick O'Dwyer but in his own day (and I'm old enough to remember it) Mick wasn't particularly seen as a traditionalist. He caused a massive clear out to create his "team of bachelors" and his adaptation of the handpass was far from traditional. If you want to go for true Kerry DNA you have to go back to Dick Fitz and Dr Eamonn; to "catch and kick" and zonal play but I don't think that any of us think that success lies in that direction. Here in Antrim I have come across some very old timers who still bemoan the fact that their great team of the 40's was crushed by Kerry tradition. They haven't recovered since!But most other innovators have been overcome eventually by adaptation not a return to tradition. (Apart from Down) Armagh;Tyrone;Donegal even the Dublin team of the 70's. You could say the key to the Kerry DNA is adaptation not standing still or regressing. Liam Kerins is a fine manager and has worked wonders for Tipp and Limerick but he is no Mick O'Dwyer. As for the minors, remember it's a different game:10 minutes shorter with young and inexperienced players thus much more suited to open football in the "traditional Kerry style. Hi Wayupnorth, I have a few relations from Antrim and the old timers would have mentioned this the odd time ... They would have put it slightly differently though lol .....
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Post by buck02 on Sept 5, 2016 13:39:01 GMT
If Fitzmaurice and Company stay on we're doomed. No All Ireland for a while i'm afraid. Right I'll take the bait, tell us who you think will do a better job. And should he have more Crokes players than Legion players on the panel?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 15:00:14 GMT
Right Buck i'll repsond to you since you have an idea what you're talking about not like some of these Idiots. They like to quote my post ha that's funny like they all write brilliant stuff haha. Some of the posts these guys put up are ridiculous but I don't quote them cause they are entitled to their opinion and so am I. I don't care what anyone thinks and I don't care who likes me either. The bottom line is buck Fitzmaurice has taken Kerry as far as he can take them. Ok with a lot of luck he did win it in 2014. That does not make him the man for the future. We need new management. Fitzmaurice will never beat Gavin when it counts I know that much. No excuses for some of the moves he made this year and last year against Dublin absolutely terrible calls in both games. The squad needs to be revamped. His willingness to give youth a chance has cost us and his loyalty to the older players has cost us. I honestly am not sure who the right man for the kerry job is. He got the job cause at the time there was not a lot of people jumping at the job so he got it. Jack O'Connor Liam Kearns Stephen Wallace are obvious names. John Evans Stephen Stack I dunno. Maybe it's time too look outside the County. This has nothing to do with Crokes players buck I don't care who makes the team although I think Daithi Casey should have been on the panel. Much better player than Mikey Geaney or Donnacha Walsh. Another thing I didn't like about Fitzmaurice is not leaving the Subs play. It's ridiculous. Fionn Fitzgerald wasn't allowed play with the Crokes. How is he ever going to get his confidence back if he isn't playing with the Club. It's a joke. Jason Foley is the best full back in Kerry period. I don't care what age he is. Mark O'Connor is the best midfielder in Kerry period.Both of them should have been on the team this year. Shane Murphy and Dara O'Shea are too good Keepers. They need to get a look in the league. Jason Foley Gavin Crowley(He's better than Morley by the way much faster too) Tom O'Sullivan Brian Sugrue Gavin White and Andrew Barry need to get games in the league. Barry O'Sullivan Mark O'Connor and Brendan O'Sullivan 3 midfielders need to get games. Mike Burns Daithi Casey Brian O'Seanachain Adrian Spillane Killian Spillane Jack Savage all need games in the league. He won't do it. Don't waste ye're time with ye're stupid quotes cause I don't care what anyone thinks.
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fitz
Fanatical Member
Red sky at night get off my land
Posts: 1,719
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Post by fitz on Sept 5, 2016 15:48:02 GMT
Saw Foley on the way up to the game from O'Connell street, when more air is pumped into his tyres, he's going to be a beast. 6ft + 2 or 3 I recklon already. Reminded me of a young Tommy Walsh. O'Connor is class, best fielder I've ever seen, but he's light and I think think McAuley, Connolly, Flynn, McCarthy, Small would have been piling in to him at every opportunity.
John Evans took off Rocommon's midfielders against Cavan 2 years ago when 6 up, and they ended up losing the game, that was in the bag. Gavin isn excellent manager, but he has the greater artillery, so until the playing staff can match Dublin, it's arguable that no matter who is on the sideline, it won't alter the result.
Fionn is a lovely footballer but does not have the physics for the Dubs, and he would not have been able to make any inroad in the half back line against Kilkenny/Flynn/Connolly. It's not that he's slow, it's just that power of his direct opponent will be the key difference in not being able to stop him. He needs to add more weight. Murph can to a degree offset this, being similar weight to Fionn, by having much more ferocious will and tenacity.
I don't think you should be calling people idiots, or asserting who does/doesn't know what they're talking about (even when that's what you think) you're a young guy, a lot of folks who contribute here have seen a lot more football than you and their opinion should be respected, without such a label, even when you strongly disagree. This should not be confused with saying you should have a different opinion, but we all have to hold our tongue via the keyboard at times, as making debates personal and moving into the arena of insults is just pointless, and will end up with moderators getting involved and we'll all end up looking childish. Reasonable?
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Post by buck02 on Sept 5, 2016 16:02:17 GMT
Nacrocaigh - I was only winding up about the Crokes/Legion players in an attempt (misguided obviously) to lighten the mood. I've heard the rumblings of discontent over the summer but its hard to know whats true and what is not.
I would like to see more young lads get a chance but from what I am led to believe for example the likes of Maher and Mahony were going better than the young lads you mentioned over the summer so it would be hard not to go on form and not pick them.
I would be of the belief that Fitz has probably done as good a job as could be done with the current crop of players. I would also be of the belief that 4 years is probably enough to be in charge of a team, especially when you've come up short 3 times against Dublin (albeit a really good Dublin team) in that time.
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Post by greengold35 on Sept 5, 2016 18:02:34 GMT
I would like to see Fitzmaurice continue but feel that his back up team probably needs to be shaken up a bit; he is human after all and makes mistakes like anybody else- he has, in my opinion, gotten the best out of this group for the past 4 years and don't think there is a better alternative out there bar Jack O'Connor who had his detractors too before he stepped down- where I would like to see an improvement is in game time management but its hard to know who can bring this skill to the group- there were some very positive vibes coming from the U-21 group on Declan, so maybe he should be involved. Tommy Griffin, Micheal Quirke, Stephen Stack are all guys who have senior inter county playing experience plus club management, who maybe could add something positive to the mix. The lack of under age players coming through is a negative over past 3 years but the names being mentioned here are all very young and have a lot of physical development ahead of them; we have yet to see them tested in the heat of county championship not to mention inter county football- Mark O'Connor has hardly played any football since last year's all Ireland minor final for instance. One of the negatives I heard over the week end was the lack of intensity in our internal games in the lead up to the Dublin game with the likes of Maher , AO'M proving more than equal to any of the challenges they faced. The national league is the place to blood these young guys and if they are good enough then they will come through. We are there or thereabouts and are playing second fiddle to a fine Dublin side at the moment who have a stronger squad than we have and I think thats the real difference- Gavin is a fine manager whose job is probably made easier when he can introduce a Costello/O'Gara/O'Callaghan as his 5/6th sub where we do not have that quality that far down the pecking order.
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Post by wayupnorth on Sept 5, 2016 19:38:32 GMT
That's a very thoughtful and interesting post and shows why this thread should not be shut down yet. You say that the true Kerry DNA was with Mick O'Dwyer but in his own day (and I'm old enough to remember it) Mick wasn't particularly seen as a traditionalist. He caused a massive clear out to create his "team of bachelors" and his adaptation of the handpass was far from traditional. If you want to go for true Kerry DNA you have to go back to Dick Fitz and Dr Eamonn; to "catch and kick" and zonal play but I don't think that any of us think that success lies in that direction. Here in Antrim I have come across some very old timers who still bemoan the fact that their great team of the 40's was crushed by Kerry tradition. They haven't recovered since!But most other innovators have been overcome eventually by adaptation not a return to tradition. (Apart from Down) Armagh;Tyrone;Donegal even the Dublin team of the 70's. You could say the key to the Kerry DNA is adaptation not standing still or regressing. Liam Kerins is a fine manager and has worked wonders for Tipp and Limerick but he is no Mick O'Dwyer. As for the minors, remember it's a different game:10 minutes shorter with young and inexperienced players thus much more suited to open football in the "traditional Kerry style. Hi Wayupnorth, I have a few relations from Antrim and the old timers would have mentioned this the odd time ... They would have put it slightly differently though lol ..... We must have spoken to the same old timers Dermot. As you can see my description was diplomatic as indeed was your response 😉
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Post by thebluepanther on Sept 5, 2016 20:06:53 GMT
The cold facts are Eamon has trained a team 3 times to face Dublin and lost. Will the players buy into a 4th year with him . To me that is huge. They gave everything for him in the final, A o Mahony who I thought was finished a year earlier after I watched him struggle against Roscommon was still running at the end and immense. If players want him to stay and are prepared to give everything again ,maybe he should.But if their is any doubt ,I'd say he has to go. Look at Tipp yesterday, Eamon o Shea brought them as close as you can to beating Kilkenny in an All Ireland Final , but Ryan was brought in and maybe that new injection of energy got them the result yesterday.
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Post by leftoutside on Sept 5, 2016 20:18:18 GMT
Are we still harping on about this game? Surely we should start looking at the club games in Kerry and give this a break.
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