keane
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,267
|
Post by keane on Jul 29, 2015 13:01:57 GMT
Te referee must be 100% sure that it was a penalty (even if it isn't) to award it. Mr Hughes did not look 100% sure to me and I reckon he should have consulted his umpires before making his decision. Is this 100% sure thing actually a rule? It seems a load of auld rubbish to me being parroted by people because Kevin McStay and Ciaran Whelan said it on RTE. What does a ref do if he's 99% sure? Does he have to be 100% sure of a non-penalty to wave play on? Does the same 100% surety apply to a free out in the half back line or can you get away with 75-80% sureness?
|
|
|
Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 29, 2015 13:06:50 GMT
Te referee must be 100% sure that it was a penalty (even if it isn't) to award it. Mr Hughes did not look 100% sure to me and I reckon he should have consulted his umpires before making his decision. Umpires can't be consulted in that case. Hughes ran in, signalled for peno ASAP. Is that a rule?
|
|
|
Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 29, 2015 13:07:45 GMT
Te referee must be 100% sure that it was a penalty (even if it isn't) to award it. Mr Hughes did not look 100% sure to me and I reckon he should have consulted his umpires before making his decision. Is this 100% sure thing actually a rule? It seems a load of auld rubbish to me being parroted by people because Kevin McStay and Ciaran Whelan said it on RTE. What does a ref do if he's 99% sure? Does he have to be 100% sure of a non-penalty to wave play on? Does the same 100% surety apply to a free out in the half back line or can you get away with 75-80% sureness? I think you're right you know... he should be "sure". I am not sure if he was "sure".
|
|
keane
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,267
|
Post by keane on Jul 29, 2015 13:12:25 GMT
Is this 100% sure thing actually a rule? It seems a load of auld rubbish to me being parroted by people because Kevin McStay and Ciaran Whelan said it on RTE. What does a ref do if he's 99% sure? Does he have to be 100% sure of a non-penalty to wave play on? Does the same 100% surety apply to a free out in the half back line or can you get away with 75-80% sureness? I think you're right you know... he should be "sure". I am not sure if he was "sure". Realistically, the ref has to look at an incident and decide what happened on the balance of probabilities. To my mind that means if he thinks something is 51% a penalty he has to give it (if we're to put numbers on it), because otherwise you're left with a ref that thinks something was more likely a penalty than not, but he has to start balancing how big an impact being wrong would have. That seems crazy. And why is the impact of saying yes for one team more important than saying no for the other team? Surely a ref saying no to a penalty that he thought probably was is a massively greater injustice than saying yes and making an honest mistake on the other side?
|
|
|
Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 29, 2015 13:17:28 GMT
I think you're right you know... he should be "sure". I am not sure if he was "sure". Realistically, the ref has to look at an incident and decide what happened on the balance of probabilities. To my mind that means if he thinks something is 51% a penalty he has to give it (if we're to put numbers on it), because otherwise you're left with a ref that thinks something was more likely a penalty than not, but he has to start balancing how big an impact being wrong would have. That seems crazy. And why is the impact of saying yes for one team more important than saying no for the other team? Surely a ref saying no to a penalty that he thought probably was is a massively greater injustice than saying yes and making an honest mistake on the other side? I am dashing right now but I disagree with you here... it is better to let a guilty man walk than imprison an innocent man. Type I and Type II errors.
|
|
keane
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,267
|
Post by keane on Jul 29, 2015 13:23:10 GMT
I am dashing right now but I disagree with you here... it is better to let a guilty man walk than imprison an innocent man. Type I and Type II errors. The two aren't created equally in this case as the ref has an opinion one way or the other. Fair enough if he's exactly 50/50.
|
|
Jigz84
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,017
|
Post by Jigz84 on Jul 29, 2015 13:25:20 GMT
Umpires can't be consulted in that case. Hughes ran in, signalled for peno ASAP. Is that a rule? I can't be sure if it's a rule or not, but referees don't consult fouls like that with the umpires.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 13:34:22 GMT
Umpires can't be consulted in that case. Hughes ran in, signalled for peno ASAP. Is that a rule? I'm not sure if it's a rule or not but thinking about, the referee has blown his whistle to stop the game, can he stop open play just for a consultation and then decide what he has stopped it for? Just say he stopped play thinking it was a penalty, consulted and then overturned his own decision, the flood gates would open with regard to players/managers talking to a ref after he has made a decision thinking the could change his mind. God knows KD would be in his element. I know he can consult umpires about off the ball stuff when the play has stopped. I agree with asithappens about the incident and I'm pretty sure he thought it was a penalty as he consulted with the umpires about whether or not it was a black card. I also agree with the other points, there was plenty time left in the match, Cork have shown to be mentally weak... who's to say they wouldn't have crumbled anyway?
|
|
|
Post by wayupnorth on Jul 29, 2015 14:52:44 GMT
Realistically, the ref has to look at an incident and decide what happened on the balance of probabilities. To my mind that means if he thinks something is 51% a penalty he has to give it (if we're to put numbers on it), because otherwise you're left with a ref that thinks something was more likely a penalty than not, but he has to start balancing how big an impact being wrong would have. That seems crazy. And why is the impact of saying yes for one team more important than saying no for the other team? Surely a ref saying no to a penalty that he thought probably was is a massively greater injustice than saying yes and making an honest mistake on the other side? I am dashing right now but I disagree with you here... it is better to let a guilty man walk than imprison an innocent man. Type I and Type II errors. Can't agree with you on this one Tom! Awarding a penalty by mistake is hardly to be compared to the error of locking up an innocent man for life but even there 100% certainty is not looked for but guilt "beyond reasonable doubt". Otherwise there would be a lot more guilty men walking the streets. Nothing is 100% certain other than death, taxes or Kerry winning more All Irelands. As far as awarding penalties go, the Type II error of not awarding a penalty where there really was cause to do so can be as bad as the Type I error of awarding one where none was warranted. Referees are human but as long as they are honest and impartial they should be trusted to use their judgement in these matters. If not, we will have to introduce video refs as in Rugby.
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on Jul 29, 2015 17:31:33 GMT
Realistically, the ref has to look at an incident and decide what happened on the balance of probabilities. To my mind that means if he thinks something is 51% a penalty he has to give it (if we're to put numbers on it), because otherwise you're left with a ref that thinks something was more likely a penalty than not, but he has to start balancing how big an impact being wrong would have. That seems crazy. And why is the impact of saying yes for one team more important than saying no for the other team? Surely a ref saying no to a penalty that he thought probably was is a massively greater injustice than saying yes and making an honest mistake on the other side? I am dashing right now but I disagree with you here... it is better to let a guilty man walk than imprison an innocent man. Type I and Type II errors. dashing/ˈdaʃɪŋ/ adjective adjective: dashing (of a man) attractive, adventurous, and full of confidence. "a dashing young pilot" synonyms: debonair, jaunty, devil-may-care, breezy, raffish, sporty, stylish, dazzling, romantic, attractive, spirited, lively, buoyant, energetic, animated, exuberant, flamboyant, dynamic, gallant, bold, intrepid, daring, adventurous, venturesome, plucky, swashbuckling;
|
|
|
Post by southward on Jul 29, 2015 18:05:00 GMT
I am dashing right now but I disagree with you here... it is better to let a guilty man walk than imprison an innocent man. Type I and Type II errors. Can't agree with you on this one Tom! Awarding a penalty by mistake is hardly to be compared to the error of locking up an innocent man for life but even there 100% certainty is not looked for but guilt "beyond reasonable doubt". Otherwise there would be a lot more guilty men walking the streets. Nothing is 100% certain other than death, taxes or Kerry winning more All Irelands. As far as awarding penalties go, the Type II error of not awarding a penalty where there really was cause to do so can be as bad as the Type I error of awarding one where none was warranted. Referees are human but as long as they are honest and impartial they should be trusted to use their judgement in these matters. If not, we will have to introduce video refs as in Rugby. If you were to listen to Brolly, you'd swear Hughes had the whole Cork team executed.
|
|
|
Post by southward on Jul 29, 2015 18:05:19 GMT
And anyway, it was a penalty.
|
|
|
Post by watchdebreakswillye on Jul 29, 2015 19:43:55 GMT
A goodly number of analysts keep referencing THAT penalty and continue on by saying that Cork should have won, but for it being given. I think what they're really trying to do is to send a coded message to referees in future matches involving Kerry, to be 1000% sure before giving Kerry another penalty. A penalty was given, in that moment in time, by the referee. He based his decision on what he saw in real time. The referee didn't have the benefit of replays in slow motion. He saw what he saw in the heat of battle and he gave it based on what he saw there and then. The ABK (Anyone but Kerry) brigade will use any and all means to further their arguments.
|
|
|
Post by Corner Back on Jul 29, 2015 19:57:32 GMT
The reality is that in injury time Cork were a point up and had a 45. Cork should not have lost possession/game from this point. Mike Quirke has a great article in Examiner today about the blame game. They can point to the penalty but Cork should still have won the game.
|
|
inchperfect
Senior Member
No longer active member.
Posts: 272
|
Post by inchperfect on Jul 29, 2015 20:22:05 GMT
The reality is that in injury time Cork were a point up and had a 45. Cork should not have lost possession/game from this point. Mike Quirke has a great article in Examiner today about the blame game. They can point to the penalty but Cork should still have won the game. Excellent point. I couldn't see any of the current top 5 teams failing to see out the win from that position, shows that Cork aren't there yet.
|
|
|
Post by southward on Jul 29, 2015 20:30:26 GMT
O'Neill didn't even need to score. All he had to do was kick it dead. Cork would have had plenty of time to regroup even if the ref allowed another play, which wouldn't have been a certainty.
|
|
Hicser
Senior Member
Posts: 381
|
Post by Hicser on Jul 29, 2015 22:15:39 GMT
A goodly number of analysts keep referencing THAT penalty and continue on by saying that Cork should have won, but for it being given. I think what they're really trying to do is to send a coded message to referees in future matches involving Kerry, to be 1000% sure before giving Kerry another penalty. A penalty was given, in that moment in time, by the referee. He based his decision on what he saw in real time. The referee didn't have the benefit of replays in slow motion. He saw what he saw in the heat of battle and he gave it based on what he saw there and then. The ABK (Anyone but Kerry) brigade will use any and all means to further their arguments. If Kerry had not got the penalty who knows what would have happened? Would Cork have scored another goal, would Kerry have scored 5 points in a row? It's ridiculous to say the peno cost them the match as no one knows what would have happened. Bottom line is got to roll with the punches, Cork are out of the championship because they were not good enough, end of
|
|
Jigz84
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,017
|
Post by Jigz84 on Jul 30, 2015 9:29:23 GMT
It was a penalty, simple as. Collins knew what he was doing when he fell into JOD.
Colm O' Driscoll's twitter rant just goes to show that the players even believed they were robbed. A poor mentality instead of looking at themselves and realising they just weren't good enough.
|
|
diego
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,099
|
Post by diego on Jul 30, 2015 15:04:12 GMT
I'm with you on this one Jigz.
Can't believe all the furore around this decision.
Haven't commented on this before, but the constant references in the media to this so called great injustice are getting tiresome.
Personalised attack on the ref by Brolly way over the top. It was a legitimate call and not the the clearcut mistake some are making it out to be.
As I soon as I saw it in real time I thought it was a penalty.
Replays did not change my mind.
Hughes only gets to see the incident once.
As I see it Mark Collins lost possession, was falling backwards on to the ground with JOD right behind him, the ball was sitting up for JOD to claim it and score an almost certain goal and Collins only way to save the situation was to fall back in to JOD and take both of them to the ground.
Only Collins will know if he meant to do this or not (for what it's worth I suspect he instinctively exaggerated his fall backwards to obstruct JOD), but the effect of it was that he brought down JOD so it was a foul.
|
|
|
Post by kerrygold on Jul 30, 2015 22:32:28 GMT
It was a penalty, simple as. Collins knew what he was doing when he fell into JOD. Colm O' Driscoll's twitter rant just goes to show that the players even believed they were robbed. A poor mentality instead of looking at themselves and realising they just weren't good enough. I saw the surprising reference to the refereeing decision from O'Driscoll. It sums up pretty well where Cork heads have been for the last few weeks if they believe that decision cost them their summer. Strange comment to put into the public domain.
|
|
|
Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Jul 31, 2015 0:47:43 GMT
BRIAN CUTHBERT STATEMENT 29/07/2015
Statement: I have decided not to seek reappointment to the position of Cork senior football manager and am stepping down with immediate effect
From being within a few seconds of being crowned Munster Champions to making our All Ireland Championship exit at the hands of Kildare at the week-end has been difficult for me, the players and backroom staff. The short period involved demonstrates the tight margins that exist between success and failure at inter county level.
I would like to thank the players and all the backroom staff for their huge commitment over the past two years. I would also like to thank the Cork County Board for extending every support possible to myself and the team in the course of the League and Championship campaigns.
Brian Cuthbert
Commenting on the announcement, County Chairman Gerard Lane said "On behalf of the County Board and on my own behalf, I would like to thank Brian for his service to Cork GAA, not just as Senior manager but as a selector with Conor Counihan and as a successful Minor manager previously. Brian still has a lot to offer to the GAA and I wish him every success in his future endeavours.”
End
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 16:29:26 GMT
Kerry V Cork replay. I say fair dues to the Kerry full back line but they have a big worry with Kealy in goal. Most times when he goes to hick out the ball they can expect him to have some type of miss kick, be it over the side-line or screwing it along the ground. It is very hard for a full back line to always play so well again when there cannot be confidence in their keeper in doing the basics. I thought Kelly was better and there is always Ryan from Rathmore. Next to Killian Young. Simple message, DO NOT show your weak points. If you cannot solo, do not solo and stop bringing the ball into the tackle. He is a very good player but .... Johnny Buckley. Don't think he has the speed for the wing and of course he cannot tackle or disposes a player. Bryan Sheehan must play because of his free taking ability. Donnacha Walsh does not impress me. I thought his effort to score a goal from Colm Cooper's free kick was poor. Luckily it fell to the vigilant Paul Geaney. Some contributors want Barry John Keane on the starting team. I don't think that he is a team player in that he does not appear to follow team tactics. But he is a very good impact sub. Players not mentioned, some players played well and at least 6 played very well. Two ridiculous incidents were (1) Cian O'Neill appearing to tell Colm Cooper what to do when he was about to come on as a sub. I think at this stage Colm knows more than most what to do on the field. (2) The second item was Man Of The Match. The 2 bad foot passes alone should have ruled him out. Is there something incorrect in the coaching in Dr Crokes set-up. There must be very little defending coaching done in that it appears that Fitzgerald, Buckley and O'Leary are incapable to either tackle or disposes an opponent with the ball. I suppose we cannot complain as Crokes gave us Colm Cooper - the most skilful player playing Gaelic football. bridgid, please see below with regard to Crokes players who "are incapable to either tackle or disposes an opponent with the ball", ps I hope the quaility of your posts improve
|
|
|
Post by buck02 on Aug 1, 2015 15:22:11 GMT
The furore surrounding the referee's performance in the Kerry v Mayo semi finals and again following the Kerry v Cork drawn game this year - now maybe I was in Siberia in the weeks that followed the 2011 All Ireland final but I cant recall many of the pundits slamming the refereeing performance that day. Was there numerous slow-motion replays of the steps leading to the Dublin goal, the double hop on their own 45 that was missed leading to a Dublin point, Brosnan's "pick off the ground", the free for the winning score and so on? And that was on the biggest day of the year.
After the drawn Munster Final this year, there was no slow-motions done of the 3 soft frees that led to Cork tap over frees or the point that was wide just before half time.
I watched the replay between Kerry and Mayo during the week. Mayo were in receipt of a number of dubious decisions that day and NOT ONCE did Tommy Carr say anything. When Donaghy or Barry John got those frees in extra time, Carr was obviously in agony, such was the pain in his voice. I smiled yesterday when I read Tommy Carr's character reference for one of the former Anglo employees who was convicted of fraud. Last year it seemed like he wanted Cormac Reilly jailed for his refereeing performance in the replay.
EDIT: Just realised I read it wrong yesterday, Tommy Lyons not Tommy Carr.
|
|
|
Post by glengael on Aug 3, 2015 14:46:32 GMT
Yerra, they're great people in Cork all the same. Such breath of imagination......
Mon, Aug 3, 2015, 15:03
First published: Mon, Aug 3, 2015, 15:03
The Cork County GAA board have issued a statement thanking recently departed senior football manager Brian Cuthbert for his two years in charge and also blaming a poor refereeing decision for the side’s failure to progress in this year’s All Ireland Championship.
Cuthbert stepped down as manager last week following Cork’s 1-13 to 1-21 Round 4A Qualifier defeat to Kildare .
The qualifier had come a week after the Rebel County’s Munster final replay defeat to Kerry, with many citing the quick turnaround as a major factor in their defeat. Kerry had managed to force a Munster final replay thanks to a Fionn Fitzgerald point right at the death, but the Cork board have suggested it was a decision made by Armagh referee Padraig Hughes which cost them a place in the quarter finals.
The statement reads: “The Executive of Cork County Board would like to express its sincere thanks to Brian Cuthbert for his two years at the helm of the Cork Senior Football team.
“Brian made great strides with a largely new-look team playing excellent football, and steered them through two successful Allianz League campaigns which saw them top the league in both years, reaching the semi-final in 2014 and the final in 2015. The 2015 campaign was particularly arduous given that it involved an unprecedented four trips to play Ulster teams away.
“The tremendous performance of the team in the drawn Munster Final has been widely acknowledged, and it is quite probable that but for a totally wrong refereeing decision in that game, Cork would now be in an All-Ireland Semi-Final.
“The short turn-around time between the replay, played in exhausting weather conditions, and the qualifier game against Kildare, cannot be ignored as a factor in that defeat.”
|
|
|
Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Aug 3, 2015 15:09:54 GMT
A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary
|
|
|
Post by ballynamona on Aug 3, 2015 15:24:24 GMT
This is crazy stuff.Cork seem to want to be treated with kid gloves.Even if they had eked out a win that first day,they would surely have come a cropper soon after.That 'victim' mentality is debilitating.
|
|
|
Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 3, 2015 15:39:18 GMT
If that's an official statement then it is not only embarrassing but once again shows the inherent attitude problem in the hierarchy of the Cork GAA. A failure on the field and a spectacular failure off the field
|
|
|
Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 3, 2015 16:34:04 GMT
Looking at that statement gives me a weird and almost surreal feeling that is hard to describe. It reads like a statement from a 16 year old who has gotten in trouble with their parents and they are blaming all and sundry in attempt to weasel their way out of having to take responsibility
|
|
|
Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Aug 3, 2015 16:50:23 GMT
So if I understand correctly the weather and the referee made sure that Cork were unfit and could not play two games in a two weeks whereas all the teams in the qualifiers can? A referee cost them the drawn munster final and the weather was the reason they lost the replay? And then they had only a week to prepare, as a division 1 team that, by their own admission, had a successful league campaign as they reached a final in which they were blown away, to take on a division 2 team that had an atrocious league campaign, got relegated to division 3, lost by 19 points to Dublin, then defeated a division 4 team by 2 points, and then another division 4 team by 16 points? In other words playing two games in two weeks is so demanding that if they had two weeks to prepare for a quarter final they would have beaten whoever they would have met in the quarter final (most likely Fermanagh)? So by that logic I think we can assume that if Kerry did not exist Cork would have 44 All Irelands, 27 League Division 1 titles and 114 Munster titles?
|
|
|
Post by southward on Aug 3, 2015 17:00:00 GMT
Surely to God genuine Cork sportspeople will revolt against this. Embarrassing beyond belief.
What next? - fat guy in a baseball cap stages hunger strike outside HQ.
|
|