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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 27, 2015 10:42:19 GMT
A. My understanding is that the blame is at the CB rather than BC --- the CB knew he wouldn't kick up much of a fight with the dual players.
B. Tactically did they not do OK in the first game against Kerry this year?
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kerryexile
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Whether you believe that you can, or that you can't, you are right anyway.
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Post by kerryexile on Jul 27, 2015 10:45:01 GMT
Very disappointed with Des Cahill last night.
Brolly was there to talk about the weekend games yet he insisted on talking – not about the Cork Kildare game, not about Cork’s previous game but about the game before their previous game. He was allowed do this and it was ultimately Ciaran Whelan who moved the discussion on.
Secondly he referred to the penalty decision as a “mistake”. My initial reaction was that it was a penalty. Martin Carney said in commentary that it was a big call but it was a penalty. Nowhere has it been decreed that it was a wrong decision. Yet Des Cahill agreed with him and did use the word "mistake".
Darragh Maloney has a much more balanced approach and has put Brolly in his place a couple of times.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Jul 27, 2015 10:53:57 GMT
No idea why any of ye continue to watch that garbage anyway.
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Post by givehimaball on Jul 27, 2015 11:09:06 GMT
A. My understanding is that the blame is at the CB rather than BC --- the CB knew he wouldn't kick up much of a fight with the dual players. B. Tactically did they not do OK in the first game against Kerry this year? Well pretty much everything I've heard suggested BC got the job ahead of Cleary because BC had no issue with dual players whereas Cleary said it was a terrible idea. I'd "blame" both of them for it - however the county board has responsibilities to the two sports, whereas the football manager has to do what he thinks is best for the footballers. B. I'm not sure they did all that well in the first game especially as regards tactics - for me I thought it was a very poor Kerry team performance the first day especially if you discount the full-forward line - if you go through the Kerry team and rate the various individuals, there were a lot more who had bad days at the office as opposed to good. The fact that Cork's tactics were pretty much identical in the replay and the Kildare game would lead me to think the first day didn't have all that much to do with any great tactics but the individual players simply performing for Cork in the draw.
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keane
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Post by keane on Jul 27, 2015 11:25:59 GMT
No idea why any of ye continue to watch that garbage anyway. This. Literally gave up watching it and go for a cup of tea when the analysis is on during live games.
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Post by glengael on Jul 27, 2015 14:11:14 GMT
It's the accepted narrative now Cork had Kerry beaten only for the penalty. Kerry seem to be getting blamed for this along with Paudie Hughes, picardia and all that. Given the fact that Cork subsequently proved to be so brittle, I would question if they would have held out. The fact that they only kicked two points in the second half of the reply is telling. Yes. Even the Sunday Times is getting in on this "narrative" now with a piece by Michael Foley yesterday. (Sorry can't post it because of Rupert's paywall). It's along the lines of "isn't it terrible what some other people, not us of course, are saying about Kerry and referees and here is a selection of what is said by those other people in case you missed it the first time. Here are all the things that might happen because of all this comment about Kerry and referees and oh dear imagine that. Dear oh dear, Kerry will have to be careful". He even manages to present a well known story around Cormac McAnallen's funeral as some kind of new news. Which is fairly pathetic to put it at its very mildest.
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Post by Kingdomson on Jul 27, 2015 15:01:53 GMT
Very disappointed with Des Cahill last night. Brolly was there to talk about the weekend games yet he insisted on talking – not about the Cork Kildare game, not about Cork’s previous game but about the game before their previous game. He was allowed do this and it was ultimately Ciaran Whelan who moved the discussion on. Secondly he referred to the penalty decision as a “mistake”. My initial reaction was that it was a penalty. Martin Carney said in commentary that it was a big call but it was a penalty. Nowhere has it been decreed that it was a wrong decision. Yet Des Cahill agreed with him and did use the word "mistake". Darragh Maloney has a much more balanced approach and has put Brolly in his place a couple of times. I hope the GAA are taking heed of how Sky are presenting their product in comparison with RTE before any future rights deal is discussed with the national broadcaster. The Sky presentation is far more respectful of those involved, players, management and officials. They do a very decent job of breaking down and anaylsing the game and tactics in a very professional manner and without personalising it. Spillane is under the impression that people watch because of the pundits and said as much in his last appearance on the Late Late Show. He couldn't be more wrong! People watch for the game. Why do RTE feel the need for such a tabloid approach? At least Sky GAA respect their audience and treat them with intelligence. I'm not saying the GAA should go solely with Sky but what I am saying is the GAA should expect more respect to be shown to their games and those involved by RTE.
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Post by ballynamona on Jul 27, 2015 18:01:06 GMT
It's the accepted narrative now Cork had Kerry beaten only for the penalty. Kerry seem to be getting blamed for this along with Paudie Hughes, picardia and all that. Given the fact that Cork subsequently proved to be so brittle, I would question if they would have held out. The fact that they only kicked two points in the second half of the reply is telling. Yes. Even the Sunday Times is getting in on this "narrative" now with a piece by Michael Foley yesterday. (Sorry can't post it because of Rupert's paywall). It's along the lines of "isn't it terrible what some other people, not us of course, are saying about Kerry and referees and here is a selection of what is said by those other people in case you missed it the first time. Here are all the things that might happen because of all this comment about Kerry and referees and oh dear imagine that. Dear oh dear, Kerry will have to be careful". He even manages to present a well known story around Cormac McAnallen's funeral as some kind of new news. Which is fairly pathetic to put it at its very mildest. I read it. I would have expected better from Foley. I feel Brolly's comments about Hughes, on a number of different days, have really crossed a line. Referees deserve better than that. I expect RTE would discard him except they think he's "box office" and would be picked up by Sky.
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Post by southward on Jul 27, 2015 18:35:01 GMT
Very disappointed with Des Cahill last night. Brolly was there to talk about the weekend games yet he insisted on talking – not about the Cork Kildare game, not about Cork’s previous game but about the game before their previous game. He was allowed do this and it was ultimately Ciaran Whelan who moved the discussion on. Secondly he referred to the penalty decision as a “mistake”. My initial reaction was that it was a penalty. Martin Carney said in commentary that it was a big call but it was a penalty. Nowhere has it been decreed that it was a wrong decision. Yet Des Cahill agreed with him and did use the word "mistake". Darragh Maloney has a much more balanced approach and has put Brolly in his place a couple of times. I've said before that it was a penalty and, despite a majority opinion to the contrary, I stand by that. Not that it matters where Brolly or McStay are concerned. If JOD had been shot dead in the box, they'd say it should have been a free out for obstruction of a bullet. Bitter little b*llixes, the pair of them; they just hate Kerry and they're sickened that we weren't beaten. Billy Morgan couldn't hold a candle to them.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 27, 2015 18:43:02 GMT
I don't think it was a penalty (I think it was a free out if anything) but it doesn't mean that this palaver is appropriate.
I can understand how the referee made a mistake but we all make mistakes.
What is probably being bugging me a lot more is the accusation that JOD dived: that is ridiculous... I mean did they not watch the incident? He goes down due to the collision with the Cork player and on descent throws his arms up in a plea for a penalty. How people see that as a dive I don't know.
JOD may have (?) thrown a dive in poor taste near the end of the AIF but he is not a diver (in my biased view).
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Post by wayupnorth on Jul 27, 2015 19:40:55 GMT
Very disappointed with Des Cahill last night. Brolly was there to talk about the weekend games yet he insisted on talking – not about the Cork Kildare game, not about Cork’s previous game but about the game before their previous game. He was allowed do this and it was ultimately Ciaran Whelan who moved the discussion on. Secondly he referred to the penalty decision as a “mistake”. My initial reaction was that it was a penalty. Martin Carney said in commentary that it was a big call but it was a penalty. Nowhere has it been decreed that it was a wrong decision. Yet Des Cahill agreed with him and did use the word "mistake". Darragh Maloney has a much more balanced approach and has put Brolly in his place a couple of times. I've said before that it was a penalty and, despite a majority opinion to the contrary, I stand by that. Not that it matters where Brolly or McStay are concerned. If JOD had been shot dead in the box, they'd say it should have been a free out for obstruction of a bullet. Bitter little b*llixes, the pair of them; they just hate Kerry and they're sickened that we weren't beaten. Billy Morgan couldn't hold a candle to them. I agree - I thought it was a penalty at the time and I was pretty close to it (Section I low 300s - thank you season ticket!) I still insist it is despite the scorn of my Northern friends and neighbours. But, as was said, it should not be seen as pivotal - if Cork were so good that day they should have finished us off despite the penalty. Brolly last night gave the impression of having a personal vendetta against the referee and the National broadcaster should not be used for this purpose. The hurling pundit also used the platform to pursue another personal agenda which was equally wrong if more understandable.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Jul 27, 2015 21:19:35 GMT
I've said before that it was a penalty and, despite a majority opinion to the contrary, I stand by that. Not that it matters where Brolly or McStay are concerned. If JOD had been shot dead in the box, they'd say it should have been a free out for obstruction of a bullet. Bitter little b*llixes, the pair of them; they just hate Kerry and they're sickened that we weren't beaten. Billy Morgan couldn't hold a candle to them. I agree - I thought it was a penalty at the time and I was pretty close to it (Section I low 300s - thank you season ticket!) I still insist it is despite the scorn of my Northern friends and neighbours. But, as was said, it should not be seen as pivotal - if Cork were so good that day they should have finished us off despite the penalty. Brolly last night gave the impression of having a personal vendetta against the referee and the National broadcaster should not be used for this purpose. The hurling pundit also used the platform to pursue another personal agenda which was equally wrong if more understandable. Agree completely. They had us on the ropes, they had a free that was of questionable distance to score, it could have been recycled to kill time. They let Kerry work the ball up the pitch. As cynical and completely agnostic to the spirit of sport one of their players should have buried one of our guys and started a melee. A team hanging by a thread for its self belief and future of its credibility and manager should not have let that ball up the field. Mental weakness, lack of belief, lack of awareness of what needed to be done and loser affliction prevailed. I know KG disagreed with my views earlier on Kildare and the words I use are extreme but I think in Cork's case the results back them up too. Consistently into a second year our team is showing resolve in adversary and when playing badly finding a way to avoid defeat. It doesn't mean we'll be rescued every time but this fortitude of mentality and belief can't be bought. We are no longer a team that starts wilting with the finish line in sight. We finish games strongly. A definite improvement under Fitzmaurice's reign. As an aside my uncle informed me that Enright's resurgence has been the product of a lot of 1:1 work specifically done with him. Not disrespectfully meant to Tarbert it was felt the caliber of opposition he was/is facing at club level wouldn't be good enough for intercounty combat. Whatever they're doing, keep her well lit going forward
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Post by southward on Jul 27, 2015 22:03:39 GMT
I've said before that it was a penalty and, despite a majority opinion to the contrary, I stand by that. Not that it matters where Brolly or McStay are concerned. If JOD had been shot dead in the box, they'd say it should have been a free out for obstruction of a bullet. Bitter little b*llixes, the pair of them; they just hate Kerry and they're sickened that we weren't beaten. Billy Morgan couldn't hold a candle to them. I agree - I thought it was a penalty at the time and I was pretty close to it (Section I low 300s - thank you season ticket!) I still insist it is despite the scorn of my Northern friends and neighbours. But, as was said, it should not be seen as pivotal - if Cork were so good that day they should have finished us off despite the penalty. Brolly last night gave the impression of having a personal vendetta against the referee and the National broadcaster should not be used for this purpose. The hurling pundit also used the platform to pursue another personal agenda which was equally wrong if more understandable. Brolly repeatedly accused Hughes of having a penchant for dramatic, attention seeking moments. Joe really doesn't have a grasp of irony, does he?
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Post by ballynamona on Jul 27, 2015 22:08:40 GMT
The media narrative about the penalty in the first game has turned laughable. It's as if Cork should have been allowed take to the bed for a month and not expected to play a game after suffering such an "injustice".
As other posters said, they had opportunities to kill the game and coughed them up under no pressure.
RTE really need a big clear-out of their football coverage. Cahill, Brolly, McStay, Spillane could all go. Also, O'Rourke. I respect him but feel he has had his run and is not as good as he was.
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Post by kerrygold on Jul 27, 2015 22:11:56 GMT
There is a dislikeable nastiness about Brolly that is hard to take. He reminds one of the school yard prick that one wouldn't mind seeing someone giving a clip around the ears.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 27, 2015 22:34:51 GMT
I agree - I thought it was a penalty at the time and I was pretty close to it (Section I low 300s - thank you season ticket!) I still insist it is despite the scorn of my Northern friends and neighbours. But, as was said, it should not be seen as pivotal - if Cork were so good that day they should have finished us off despite the penalty. Brolly last night gave the impression of having a personal vendetta against the referee and the National broadcaster should not be used for this purpose. The hurling pundit also used the platform to pursue another personal agenda which was equally wrong if more understandable. Brolly repeatedly accused Hughes of having a penchant for dramatic, attention seeking moments. Joe really doesn't have a grasp of irony, does he?
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Post by norman on Jul 27, 2015 22:45:38 GMT
The more Brolly opens his mouth the more he exposes his lack of intelligence & nastiness. Time for Brolly & Spillane to go.
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Post by wayupnorth on Jul 28, 2015 9:35:15 GMT
The more Brolly opens his mouth the more he exposes his lack of intelligence & nastiness. Time for Brolly & Spillane to go. To the be fair to the man he is intelligent
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Fado
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Post by Fado on Jul 28, 2015 10:14:15 GMT
By continuing to keep the penalty incident in the public domain, Joe is hoping that referees will not favour Kerry the next time there is a big call to be made.
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Post by Mickmack on Jul 28, 2015 19:31:11 GMT
By continuing to keep the penalty incident in the public domain, Joe is hoping that referees will not favour Kerry the next time there is a big call to be made. that would seem to be the agenda at this stage alright
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Jo90
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Post by Jo90 on Jul 28, 2015 22:35:16 GMT
Cuthbert gone going by the Cork Examiner. I wonder will Flanagan also go.
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Post by Kingdomson on Jul 29, 2015 8:20:49 GMT
Really excellent article by Mick Quirke. www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/football/mike-quirke-cork-must-banish-crutches-and-excuses-345162.htmlMike Quirke: Cork must banish crutches and excuses By Mike Quirke - Wednesday, July 29, 2015 Legendary American college football coach Nick Saban once said: “Championship teams have to be resilient. No matter what is thrown at them, no matter how deep the hole, they find a way to bounce back and overcome adversity”. After Cork’s humbling at the hands of Kildare last Saturday night, I thought of just how suffocated by adversity they have become in the past two years. I even listened to Joe Brolly on Sunday night talk about the ‘catastrophic refereeing decision by wee Paudie’ that cost Cork a Munster title. Did it really? Was there not time on the clock for Cork to deal with that hardship and bounce back? Was there not a replay? Was there not an opportunity against a Division Three team last weekend to take their frustration out on and get to Croke Park to have a crack off the Dubs? Where was the resilience? The bounce-back ability? My club Kerins O’Rahillys were beaten by Kilmurry-Ibrickane in the Munster Senior Club final of 2009. Picture this: I had got married two weeks previous and had to cancel the honeymoon. Not a good start to any marriage. Two of our inter-county thoroughbreds, Tommy Walsh and David Moran, took off to Australia two weeks before it and were lost to a foreign game, with David returning the day before the final to play a subdued part, still half jet-lagged. We had a man sent off in the first half, and playing against a strong wind had managed to doggedly stay the course with them until the dying seconds. It was a level ball game when we scored a perfectly legitimate goal in injury time that was disallowed by the referee. While we protested, the Clare champions swept up the field and kicked the winner. Game over. Ball burst. Of course, the referee needed a police escort to get off the field safely because there were a lot of angry supporters baying for blood — figuratively I mean. But my attitude was very different to that of our supporters. Why blame the referee? Why weren’t the supporters getting thick with our guy who got sent off? Were they as cross with all of us who had kicked 14 wides on the day? If we only kicked 12 wides we would have won the game and the provincial title. By taking the emphasis off the players and hitching it to a refereeing error is doing a great disservice to your team. The best players and teams want that personal responsibility and will take ownership of the situation to deal with that adversity. It develops leadership. But passing the buck onto a bad call by an official ignores the other 40-50 individual errors made by the players over the course of the game, and it was never something we focused on or spoke about with Kerry. No excuses, no crutches. I think that’s why I was so intrigued by the article written by Conor McCarthy’s on these pages before the Kerry and Cork replay that got everybody in Kerry so hot and bothered. He made a case that suggested Kerry were the “intuitive masters of the darK art of referee plámás”. He inferred Kerry footballers were somehow genetically predisposed to cajole favourable calls out of referees by using their inherent cuteness and high- profile status to influence the decision-making. I thought it was an incredibly insightful article, but it told me much more about the weak mentality that exists in the Cork dressing room than it did about Kerry’s ability to con referees. When Cork manager Brian Cuthbert came out to face the TV cameras after defeat to Kerry, his dejection was manifestly evident. I found that astounding. As the leader of his group, he should have been projecting a confidence and a pride in his players’ performance who were due to play again only seven days later… what he gave us instead was a reflection of the dark mood and mental fragility in his dressing room. There was no positivity. No air of optimism. They were mentally broken. I had a fair idea they were a beaten docket as soon as I saw that interview. Perhaps unintentionally, Conor McCarthy’s article gave us a window into the psyche of that Cork squad and highlighted the heavy burden and sizeable chip the players in that more recent Cork dressing room carry around on their shoulder with regard to Kerry — it’s like they have developed an inferiority complex. Maybe they don’t even know it’s there… but when you start to itemise bad refereeing decisions made against you, and you start to see Kerry as having an innate ability to manufacture those good calls through a nod and a wink with the referee, you are in a bad head-space. If I had the time or inclination to examine the negative impact Cavan referee Joe McQuillan alone has had on Kerry in big games in the past five to 10 years, it would frighten you — crucial calls at critical times that had huge implications on the direction and ultimate outcome of huge matches. Joe must somehow be impervious to our powers of plámás. And he’s only one example. But, as players, you cannot allow yourself to focus on those negatives. You must compartmentalise it and move on. New script. The Cork players had put forth so much honesty and effort the first day out against Kerry and felt they were completely wronged again by an official. And from reading Conor’s article you can see how it had such a negative impact on them. This notion of referees favouring Kerry has become ingrained in their psyche and the dressing room and has evidently affected their focus. Once Kerry ground them down the second day, Cork had no more to give against Kildare. Their minds let them down. They were in too deep a hole, unable to bounce back — still licking their wounds after getting screwed over by a referee again. Feeling sorry for themselves and pissed off that another official, as Conor put it, “simply succumbed to a very human condition and found safety in bringing the world back into order. Kerry don’t lose in Killarney”. If that is really the way they think in that Cork dressing room, it explains a great deal. In Semple Stadium on Saturday night, they looked devoid of energy and appetite for hard work. They allowed Kildare luxurious time and space on the ball to find their comfort zone and ease their way into the game. It was uncomfortable viewing. Not all, but a lot of Cork players appeared to just roll over and clock out long before the final whistle. Now, you may think as a Kerry man, I take pleasure in saying these things about Cork, but I do not. The truth is, we were coming under a vaguely similar set of pressures two or three years ago when Kerry was getting lambasted for not producing bigger, more physically athletic players out of development, minor and under 21 squads — for not achieving more success at underage level, and not winning titles at senior level for a number of years. We were in full transition mode, and that’s where Cork now find themselves too. But it can change quickly. Cork have far too many high quality footballers to be floundering the way they are at present. But lingering talk of bad refereeing calls and conspiracy theories will do little to steel their resolve. The players must take responsibility for their position and strive to escape from the pity-party environment. Only then can they achieve the consistent level success their talent is capable of bringing them.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 29, 2015 9:19:30 GMT
I have been saying it for a while now: Champion teams don't make excuses nor allow uncontrollables play a part in the result. It is a rotten mentality to be making excuses.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jul 29, 2015 9:35:53 GMT
I have been saying it for a while now: Champion teams don't make excuses nor allow uncontrollables play a part in the result. It is a rotten mentality to be making excuses. Do you know many people from Mayo?? If it wasn't for other teams being robbed and us getting "soft All Irelands"- I reckon Kerry would probably have won less than 10 at this stage
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brigid
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Post by brigid on Jul 29, 2015 9:53:28 GMT
Successful teams make their own luck. Because JOD was in the right place and at the right time he appeared to be fouled and got a penalty. Were Kerry lucky? Perhaps but IF Kerry had lost that game they were not out of the championship. I think there should be a balance in this discussion and Kerry are lucky when it comes to penalties. Last year when playing Mayo, the back door was now closed and when Shane Enright brought down Mayo forward O'Connor, a penalty was awarded to Mayo and usually in these cases, the player who commits the foul gets at least a yellow card (should it be a Black). Now if Enright had got a card, he would be gone as he had already got a yellow. Are Kerry lucky. Of course they are but then all successful teams are lucky. A county cannot win so many All Irelands without some luck - but be careful, keep some of the luck for remaining games.
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Post by seaniebo on Jul 29, 2015 10:52:18 GMT
As long as Kerry are involved in this year's championship Mr Brolly will harp on about the penalty decision so we may as well get used to it. Guaranteed if he's on the panel for the Kildare game he will mention it and please God if we get into a semi final I can hear him squeaking on about it again. 'Aye and people forget that Kerry wouldn't even be here if it weren't for the referee decision etc etc'.
If ifs and buts were chocolate and beer what a wonderful Christmas we'd have this year.
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inchperfect
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Post by inchperfect on Jul 29, 2015 11:10:15 GMT
I know I might come across as biased here but something that doesn't get mentioned is people assume after the penalty that the game would've panned out exactly the same way and that Cork would've won by 3 points. We were only 3 points behind at the time with 15 minutes to go and anything could've happened for the rest of the match if the penalty wasn't given.
At the time of Barry O'Driscoll's goal it was 2-14 to 2-12 with 6 minutes to go. If Cork had been 1 point ahead instead of 2 behind would he have gone up the field with the same drive and desperation? Possibly but probably not in my opinion. And if he had, would he have taken his point instead of going for goal? It's far too simple to say "Cork would've won by 3 points".
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Post by asithappens on Jul 29, 2015 12:50:16 GMT
No pundits or experts or many people seem to have mentioned that the referee Padraig Hughes was directly behind the play when he awarded the penalty.
His direct line vision was obscured by Mark Collins. I'm sure he would have seen James O'Donoghue falling to the ground and Mark Collins falling with his right arm very close to James O'Donoghue in what from a distance with an obscured view could have have looked like a dragging/pulling movement or a clumsy challenge.
The referee has to be 100% sure that a foul has taken place before any free/penalty is awarded. In this instance he must have made an assumption that Collins used his right arm to drag back/pull down James O'Donoghue.
Joe Brolly (who has been way over the top regarding this incident but that's another story) and others have been very harsh on the referee. If this happened in the Connaught Final and Sligo were awarded the penalty and went on to win the game or if it happened next Sunday and Fermanagh went on to beat Dublin there would be little or nothing said about it. All would we hear is that it's great to see the weaker counties prevailing and this would be greeted with much amusement as the GAA family are suckers for an underdog.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 29, 2015 12:57:06 GMT
The referee must be 100% sure that it was a penalty (even if it isn't) to award it. Mr Hughes did not look 100% sure to me and I reckon he should have consulted his umpires before making his decision.
Edit: The referee must should be 100% sure that it was a penalty (even if it isn't) to award it. Mr Hughes did not look 100% sure to me and I reckon he should have consulted his umpires before making his decision.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Jul 29, 2015 12:58:53 GMT
Te referee must be 100% sure that it was a penalty (even if it isn't) to award it. Mr Hughes did not look 100% sure to me and I reckon he should have consulted his umpires before making his decision.Umpires can't be consulted in that case. Hughes ran in, signalled for peno ASAP.
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