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Post by kerrygold on Aug 30, 2011 16:27:38 GMT
Bend it like Beckham, the debate was about precedent not vindictiveness Yes, and you are saying "Connolly should be banned". Why are you saying that, when you are not happy with the precedent?? If you're making a point about Galvin or whatever, NOBODY would be saying "Galvin should be banned" for an incident like this. Even allowing for previous. Two wrongs or 5 wrongs or however many wrongs are not making anything right. And as I've detailed elsewhere, we have suffered plenty of previous bans that seemed very harsh, but you didn't include any of those in your precedent. A couple of years ago players were getting off with punches thrown. What about THAT precedent? You'll find no where in my arguement did I use the term Connolly should be banned. Now if you dont mind casting any further aspersions on my character, your comments are becoming rambly.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 30, 2011 16:34:55 GMT
Yes, and you are saying "Connolly should be banned". Why are you saying that, when you are not happy with the precedent?? If you're making a point about Galvin or whatever, NOBODY would be saying "Galvin should be banned" for an incident like this. Even allowing for previous. Two wrongs or 5 wrongs or however many wrongs are not making anything right. And as I've detailed elsewhere, we have suffered plenty of previous bans that seemed very harsh, but you didn't include any of those in your precedent. A couple of years ago players were getting off with punches thrown. What about THAT precedent? You'll find no where in my arguement did I use the term Connolly should be banned. Now if you dont mind casting any further aspersions on my character, your comments are becoming rambly. You said he deserved the red because of three striking offences. Aspersions on your character? I'm simply defending my man's and my team's case. Anyway, Kerry will win easily ;D
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 30, 2011 17:51:49 GMT
Mick. How often are we told that if you make too many mistakes you get punished? If you're good enough, your luck will even out over a period of time? It could be argued that two very bad decisions by McQuillan in last year's semi gave Cork an initiative that in such a tight game tipped the balance. This was on the back of alot of soft frees given to Cork as well. But I know that in truth Dublin weren't quite good enough to beat Cork last year. If the game had gone to a replay, as long as it wasn't in Pairc Ui Chaoimh or Thurles, then Cork would have won it. Kildare were not at the races against Dublin. They were handed almost half the game with an extra man after a harsh sending off. They also had the same opportunity to get a score that Dublin did with their last attack of the game but it was defended better than the last Dublin attack. MacLochlainn fouled Bernard Brogan for the free in the last minute. He knew exactly what he was doing. He got away with lots of fouls on the day. Things can even out as regards those type of fouls over a game. In 1995 Cavlin touched the ball on the ground in front of the ref. The ref blew for a free instantly, no doubt, before Cavlin passed and set up Canavan for the shot (or was it the other way around?). Those are the rules and if you disagree with them then that must be how Jacko got away with his pick-up at such a vital juncture in 1985. As regards McQuillan in the Tyrone game, you as much as anyone know that a team of Tyrone's experience and ability, no less than Kerry, may struggle badly in some games and appear dead and buried (Think the 1986 All-I final), but as long as they are still hanging in there, and if their opponents don't have the experience or the depths of belief to finish the job, then the game can change in an instant. What was it in 1986, a 14 point turnaround in the last 20 minutes? How many times have Dublin teams let leads slip over the last decade? An 8-point lead in this year's League Final was blown away like blue ribbons in the wind in the last 15 minutes once the tide had turned. The fact that a game ends with a free is of no more unusual significance than that it ends with a great score from play. Gaelic football at that level often has alot of frees, especially when the stakes are at their highest. In the league game between Dublin and Kerry this year, a very important game, as I'm sure the video you posted up demonstrates, Kerry were awarded a controversial free in the last minute. One of several dodgy decisions in the last few minutes of that game.It's generally Kerry's good fortune and unrivalled ability to be winning games decisively enough that they don't win by a point. I won't go to analyse some of the very tight qualifier and quarter final games that Kerry have won in recent years, maybe you remember how those games ended. I wonder did any of them end with frees? Last year's All-I semi between Dublin and Cork if I recall correctly ended with a free to Cork, or certainly that was the final score, probably in the final minute. In the 2006 semi-final between Dublin and Mayo, Bryan Cullen was clearly fouled 30 yards out in the dying moments and was not awarded a free that would have levelled the scores. Around the same time Mayo were allowed to illegally hold onto the ball and send it into the far corner of the pitch, thus wasting more time and the referee awarded a free out for an incident further up the pitch but insisted the free be taken from the corner of the pitch. In the 2007 semi The Star dragged down Shane Ryan when he was clean through on goal. The Star was also not sent off and went on to play a huge part in the scores that clinched the game for Kerry. You see game-defining/deciding decisions and actions can take many forms. But anyway, let's not waste 3 weeks talking about the reasons why referees are mostly against Dublin, and but sometimes after riding us all day they forgot to give us our final allocated token free until the last minute. I'm sure Seamus Aldridge would have agreed with the decision in the Kildare game................ The hurlers must be having a great old chuckle when they see what constitutes a striking offence in football. In their sport, the timber can be used with reckless abandon while they forget about the ball and get on with the game. Strange old organisation, strange old country. I read somewhere, that under the new rules Diarmuid Connolly's red card cannot be rescinded. Am I right in saying that Michael Murphy had a red card rescinded after an Ulster game? If that is the case, it would be remiss of the Dublin management not to appeal Diarmuid's red card. It was no more a strike than Marc's "strike" in the NFL against Dublin. With all due respect Veteran, Marc's strike on EOG was indeed a strike, a clear slap to the face as shown on close-up video footage. I've no doubt that it was provoked by Eoghan(a very big lad)'s very intimidatory behavior and shaping to put in his head into Marc's head. But the fact is it was a clear strike, and what perhaps might have saved Marc from suspension was the fact that not only did Eoghan not react for effect, he didn't even flinch! Contrast that with the theatrics of many that have often resulted in players being suspended for next to nothing. I really hope that Dermo's case gets a fair hearing. He has, after several years of struggle and false dawns, really started to live up to some of his promise, and as one of the most footballing players we have, it would be a very tragic and cruel loss to the final. The occasion really deserves to be graced by him. Square the round hole so that lead to the suspensions of Marc, Tomas and Brian Farrell this year alone and Paul Galvin in Pairc Ui Rinn last year. I'm sure that most would agree there are many unfair decisions. Somehow you seem to think that another unfair decision is justified for "consistency of unfairness"??! That's what is known as vindictiveness Kerrygold, and the fact that in this case it works in Kerry's favour cannot be ignored. And as I have shown incontrovertably elsewhere, to compare Marc O'Se's clear strike to the face, following fists to the upper chest and dragging down a player off the ball to what Connolly did truly takes the kerry-gold specs idea to a new dimension! Heaven help us trying to discuss every incident that will occur in the final if this is how we are starting previews
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 30, 2011 17:55:52 GMT
Rashers
Could you explain how the final free to Kerry in the league game was so controversial?
Could you explain how Marcs was so much worse that Connollys strike?
The Marc incident contains previously unseen footage...... it shows that he wanted to take a quick free but the ball was kicked away and he then wanted to move the Dubs back 14 yards from the free.
Are you saying that Marcs red card was justified
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 30, 2011 19:38:22 GMT
Rashers Could you explain how the final free to Kerry in the league game was so controversial? Could you explain how Marcs was so much worse that Connollys strike? The Marc incident contains previously unseen footage...... it shows that he wanted to take a quick free but the ball was kicked away and he then wanted to move the Dubs back 14 yards from the free. Are you saying that Marcs red card was justified Sorry, I was incorrect, what I meant was there were two incidents just prior to the free where Dublin should have had a free out and didn't get it. Then I thought that free was very soft. Regarding Marc OSe, he clearly slaps EOG in the face. So yes that is a sending off as far as I'm aware. And so was OGara's action IF it was an attempted or actual strike wiht the head (though the replay is not conclusive, it looks like a "shaping to strike" The other stuff doesn't really matter. I'm aware there was attempt to delay/disrupt the free and I know that's why Marc OSe dragged the Dublin player down, but it's not an excuse to drag a player down. It's up to the ref to move it forward if he sees fit. Just as Connolly hasn't a right to shove the Donegal player for provoking him. Anyway, the main point is about the strike, so I'm not sure why you are defending that, was it not clearly a slap in the side of the face?
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 30, 2011 20:07:38 GMT
Marc was guilty of striking or attempting to strike.
Are you seriously telling us that Connolly is not guilty of striking or attempting to strike.
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mozzy
Senior Member
Nunc Coepi
Posts: 746
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Post by mozzy on Aug 30, 2011 21:01:24 GMT
Lads can we move on and start discussing match ups and whether Galvin should start and who would he replace? I see Declan moving in as full forward and bringing Star out to half forward so he can get stuck in on the midfield breaking ball - playing the ball into the wings a yard or two in front of Kieran and Gooch should be the way to go
who will mark Bernard Brogan -
Time to up the discussion related to what we know about the game -
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 30, 2011 21:30:23 GMT
mozzy......... if you dont mind.......... this is pretty important I think given the strict discipline apllied to some counties in recent years.
We either have a disciplinary system or we dont.
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Post by nkgirl on Aug 30, 2011 21:35:35 GMT
I know I am a slight newbee But maybe discuss this on the CCCC CCConsistency thread!!!!
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Post by Deise Exile on Aug 30, 2011 21:38:35 GMT
Mozzy move on. Not our issue if Dublin lost composure last Sunday
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Post by Tadhgeen on Aug 30, 2011 21:42:43 GMT
The disciplinary system and the standard of refereeing is avery very poor.
There is no consistency.
I can't be arsed to provide justification for the above statement. Most that have watched both hurling and football league and championship games over the past few years will know what I am on about.
You could spend hours giving examples but what's the point?
Use the rules or lose them - like the muscles!
Dublin got out of jail on Sunday in my opinion and will be extremely dangerous in the final but hopefully so will Kerry!
Do Dublin supporters think there team played well on Sunday? Forget about Donegal tactics...........Did your boys play well?
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 30, 2011 22:17:26 GMT
Marc was guilty of striking or attempting to strike. Are you seriously telling us that Connolly is not guilty of striking or attempting to strike. First of all, seeing as I answered your questions, are you seriously telling me Marc OSe did not strike or that the strike did not warrant a red? Connoly "struck" if you wish to call it that in a manner that was akin to a rough push in the upper chest and under the chin. If his fists were closed then you could technically call it a strike. I suppose you could technically call a push a strike but as far as I'm aware it's to do with where is struck and how, and then how much force. Provocation becomes an issue where the matter is in doubt. Connolly was provoked, both then and just previously. Not an excuse, but as I said, it may count where the issue is in doubt/under appeal etc. Are you seriously telling me that Marc OSe's slap to the side of the face was not a clearer strike to the head area than Connolly's "strike"? You saw the Tyrone-Dublin game. Did you see the two incidents where a Tyrone player (Gormley I think in both) clearly pushed his hand, at least, quite forcefully into Dublin players' faces, right in front of the referee? What did you think of those incidents and the outcomes? There were several incidents in the game on sunday where Donegal players left in the boot in tackles, stood on players on the ground, high tackled, and other things that I can't clearly remember right now. Did you see any of those? Almost all of them went unpunished. There were also many incidents of time-wasting and intimidation of free-takers etc that went unchecked. The point being, that in the context of many factors, Connolly's treatment can be seen as being very harsh, I think. What do you think?
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Post by austinstacksabu on Aug 31, 2011 6:28:14 GMT
Sometimes I really wonder about some people who take time out to post messages on here. Those of you who believe Kerry will win pulling up are misguided to say the least. This is perfect preparation for Dublin coming into a final. The media writing them off as opposed to blowing them up. Dublin are a team seriously well prepared and ready for a big day out. Connolly & particularly Flynn (who was having an all star type year) will b significant losses. But losses they can cope with. Talk of our great scoring power and dublin's lack of spread is exaggerated; we need 1-7 from d mighty Gooch to clear Mayo! This Dublin team are very good. Do not underestimate them. They are a real and potent threat. We're entitled to our opinion - and I just can't see where Dublin will win this game unless Kerry completely under perform - a very rare occurrence in a final.
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Post by austinstacksabu on Aug 31, 2011 6:33:14 GMT
Our backs match up well with their forwards. Somebody talking sense. Good to be back here and reading smart posts.
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 31, 2011 6:44:33 GMT
rashers
I though I had made myself clear. Marc was guilty of a red card offence. So is Connolly.
Lots of others were too but what has that got to do with anything. Try telling a judge that you should get off because others did similar offences and werent caught
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 31, 2011 6:51:43 GMT
Austinstacks abu
I presume you were at the Mayo game. Mayo put ONE extra man in defense and Kerry found it very hard going.
Dublin will turn this into a war of attrition with no space whatso ever. Are you at all concerned about the form of Declan, Donaghy and to a lesser extent Donnacha.
Did you watch the demolition job done on Tyrone?
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Post by kerrygold on Aug 31, 2011 7:39:32 GMT
Our backs match up well with their forwards. Somebody talking sense. Good to be back here and reading smart posts. That might depend of which six forwards Dublin start.
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Post by delorean on Aug 31, 2011 8:19:51 GMT
Austinstacks abu I presume you were at the Mayo game. Mayo put ONE extra man in defense and Kerry found it very hard going. Dublin will turn this into a war of attrition with no space whatso ever. Are you at all concerned about the form of Declan, Donaghy and to a lesser extent Donnacha. Did you watch the demolition job done on Tyrone? Fair enough being wary of the opposition Mick Mac, but it sounds to me like your just trying to lessen justified confidence on here! Kerry's forwards are far superior to Dublin's which gives them a massive edge. Donnacha Walsh, in my opinion, was one of Kerry's best players in the first half against Mayo. Galvin is a pretty big option to start ahead/come on for him anyway. Declan O'Sullivan was probably the most in-form player in the country up until the Mayo match, one mediocre performance is hardly something to be overly concerned about. Donaghy doesn't seem himself but still contributes plenty if you ask me, if he has been holding back somewhat, I'm sure he'll give it everything on the 18th. Also, Mayo did make it difficult for ye in the first 20-25 minutes, but ye still should have had two goals in the first five minutes and ended up with 1-20, some scoring against a team that were set up defensively for the most part. I hope and don't think it will be an easy win, but you can't blame people for being confident.
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 31, 2011 8:40:03 GMT
Lads
Have a look at this clip from the Dubs v Donegal game.
When the ball is given away, Bernard Brogan is the ONLY forward upfront for Dublin.
The other 5 are clogging up all the space that Donegal were trying to attack.
Remember the Armagh v Kerry final in 2002. Well this final will be the same with a fully fit, young, athletic team well capable of keeping it going for 75 minutes and well capable of getting fantastic scores on the break.
All lot of posters would want to get real.
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 31, 2011 9:25:19 GMT
I agree with you mick. This is an ambush waiting to happen.
Dublin have been setting up all year for a game like this and Kerry could find it very difficult to break down. I think people would want to get the game in 2009 well out of their heads. That aint going to be repeated. As was pointed out Kerry found it very difficult to break down Mayo in the first 20 minutes.
This Dublin team is well ahead of Mayo.
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 31, 2011 9:30:33 GMT
Rashers Could you explain how the final free to Kerry in the league game was so controversial? Could you explain how Marcs was so much worse that Connollys strike? The Marc incident contains previously unseen footage...... it shows that he wanted to take a quick free but the ball was kicked away and he then wanted to move the Dubs back 14 yards from the free. Are you saying that Marcs red card was justified Sorry, I was incorrect, what I meant was there were two incidents just prior to the free where Dublin should have had a free out and didn't get it. Then I thought that free was very soft. Regarding Marc OSe, he clearly slaps EOG in the face. So yes that is a sending off as far as I'm aware. And so was OGara's action IF it was an attempted or actual strike wiht the head (though the replay is not conclusive, it looks like a "shaping to strike" The other stuff doesn't really matter. I'm aware there was attempt to delay/disrupt the free and I know that's why Marc OSe dragged the Dublin player down, but it's not an excuse to drag a player down. It's up to the ref to move it forward if he sees fit. Just as Connolly hasn't a right to shove the Donegal player for provoking him. Anyway, the main point is about the strike, so I'm not sure why you are defending that, was it not clearly a slap in the side of the face? Sorry Rashers he clearly threw the head at Marc. Both actions were minimal, but deserved red cards under the rules. Connolly's actions were also minimal but under the rules he had to go. Nobody to blame but himself. Now can we get back to the match?
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Post by fenit67 on Aug 31, 2011 9:42:09 GMT
24 hours later and the discussion of the All-Ireland Football Final has not advanced one jot! "My Da said he'd beat up your Da because his brother called my cousin an eejit in the pub last year during the christening of Mary's young fella'....... " is this really the best that we can do? Football, please simply concentrate on the football. Dublin will know that no matter what system they adopt they face opponents that can deal with most scenarios. Kerry have played within themselves but when they have had to respond they have done so and yes at times they adopt a robust approach but that has never been absent from Kerry football. One caveat for Dublin; should they choose to engage Kerry in open football they will suffer.
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 31, 2011 9:58:02 GMT
Thanks to my near neighbour for bringing the discussion on. :-)
I can't see Dublin going for open football. They haven't done it yet in the Championship and they certainly won't do it against Kerry because they know they'll get a mauling. People should look at the Tyrone game again to get a taste of what awaits us. Now I know Kerry are well ahead of Tyrone this year, but it gives us an idea of the tempo Dublin will be playing at, particularly in the tackle.
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KY50
Senior Member
Posts: 318
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Post by KY50 on Aug 31, 2011 10:01:32 GMT
Micheal Mac wrote Dublin will turn this into a war of attrition with no space whatso ever. Are you at all concerned about the form of Declan, Donaghy and to a lesser extent Donnacha. Did you watch the demolition job done on Tyrone?
Agree with your comments, we have significant work to do if we are to have a chance
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Post by Ballyfireside on Aug 31, 2011 10:13:07 GMT
HOPEFULLY IT WILL NOT BE "A ZERO SUM GAME" althogh you would have to think that Dublin have a fair idea that we will beat them at proper football.
"A ZERO SUM GAME" IS WHAT WE CALL PUIC FOOTBALL AT BALLYTHEFIRESIDE, A NEW TERM FOR PATS, IE SPILLANE.
NOW REMEMBER WHERE YOU HEARD IT FIRST, AND YOU DID HEAR IT FIRST!
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Post by bilythewalsh on Aug 31, 2011 11:27:03 GMT
Gong into the Dublin game some of the Tyrone players were saying that if their shooting was more accurate than it was in 2010 against the Dubs, they would have a very good chance - a few of them said as much in the lead-up. The situation is different for Kerry and the players won't be thinking that way.
They'll also have that quarter-final and the Donegal game to analyse during the build-up - something Tyrone did not have. It's a final and Kerry will at the very least be prepared for different eventualities, and the loss to Dublin in Croke Park in February might just put some fire in their bellies.
Dublin have only leaked two goals in the Championship but they haven't come up against our forwards yet, who should get a few opportunities on the day if they can show a bit of the cuteness which they undoubtedly possess. If Dublin's defensive lock needs picking, you would have to trust that between them Jack and the players can manage it somehow. I hope.
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Post by Tadhgeen on Aug 31, 2011 12:21:46 GMT
Lads Have a look at this clip from the Dubs v Donegal game. When the ball is given away, Bernard Brogan is the ONLY forward upfront for Dublin. The other 5 are clogging up all the space that Donegal were trying to attack. Remember the Armagh v Kerry final in 2002. Well this final will be the same with a fully fit, young, athletic team well capable of keeping it going for 75 minutes and well capable of getting fantastic scores on the break. All lot of posters would want to get real. Absolutely agree with you. The Dubs will play to win and there best chance of winning is curtailing our attacking play and hitting us quickly on the break. They will hope to isolate 1 or 2 of their inside forwards who they hope will do the damage in a one on one situation. Should Kerry employ a sweeper just in front of the full back line? Donnacha perhaps? It will be interesting to see what front 6 Jack selects.
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Post by yerraman on Aug 31, 2011 12:57:44 GMT
People thinking this match will redeem the core values of the game and put an end to donegal style tactics will be in for a rude awakening i think. It will be a far more open and entertaining game but dublin are not a traditional man to man team either. Their defensive game is based on intensity,pressure and cutting out space. Just say they have a decent lead in the 2nd half,what are they going to do,go for the jugular or shut up shop. I'm worried about this match as i'm not sure what we're walking into. The strength of our forward division has received more plaudits than ever this year and dublin know they can't go man to man on them or they will be destroyed. Interesting how gilroy or his players never criticised donegal's style of play,took a few pointers for the final perhaps?
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 31, 2011 12:57:46 GMT
Think Kerry will study the Wexford game and the Tyrone game for a picture of where Dublin really are. What will be key for Kerry is the speed and accuracy of their kick passing into the forwards, because despite all the criticism Donegal have received since Sunday, Dublin do like to get a lot of players behind the ball as well.
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Johnnyb
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,444
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Post by Johnnyb on Aug 31, 2011 16:24:36 GMT
Mick Mac, a few questions- Do you think the Dubs defense is equipped to curtail our forwards?
Going on the two most recent performances, neither Dublin or Kerry play through midfield opting instead to kick short to the half back line, and so another question - do you think Dublins half backs are as good as our own?
And finally, who you want on the sideline, Jack or Gilroy?
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