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Post by homerj on Aug 16, 2022 8:58:05 GMT
EK have 5 of the 16 intermediate clubs. How many intermediate clubs do each if the other divisions have? easy enough to work it out from below. East Kerry and Mid Kerry have 9 between them, Shannon Rangers 1 and Feale Rangers 0 with the majority of the rest having 1 definately theres room for changing a few things around as some are clearly stronger than others. Intermediate: A – Currow, Ballydonoghue, Gneeveguilla, Beaufort B – Laune Rangers, Dromid, Killarney Legion, John Mitchels C – An Ghaeltacht, Kilcummin, Castleisland Desmonds, Glenbeigh/Glencar D – Miltown/Castlemaine, St. Mary’s, Glenflesk, Rathmore
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Post by homerj on Aug 16, 2022 8:59:20 GMT
looking at it, EK with 10 clubs is simply insane altogether.
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 16, 2022 9:49:02 GMT
A division with 10 clubs has probably 250 to choose from. So 220 are excluded if you have a panel of 30.
You need to go back to the founding principles of why the divisional system was introduced.
I think one was to give good players from small clubs a chance to play county championship.
It looks like about 220 club players in EK are not given that chance.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 16, 2022 11:32:45 GMT
I’ve suggested on here before that we could try and move towards a points system for divisional sides whereby you can have a max of, for example, 12 points and each intermediate team is 3 points, junior is 2 and junior b is 1.
There would be teething problems but it would equalise things and that’s the whole point of divisional sides as they are a made up concept.
It’s a failing that lads like donal o Sullivan could get a game for EK last year while being involved with Kerry and UL.
Imagine the difference he would make to a different divisional side!
With legion coming into the EK fold now then there will be a serious imbalance and wastage
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Post by legendz on Aug 16, 2022 12:33:34 GMT
I’ve suggested on here before that we could try and move towards a points system for divisional sides whereby you can have a max of, for example, 12 points and each intermediate team is 3 points, junior is 2 and junior b is 1. There would be teething problems but it would equalise things and that’s the whole point of divisional sides as they are a made up concept. It’s a failing that lads like donal o Sullivan could get a game for EK last year while being involved with Kerry and UL. Imagine the difference he would make to a different divisional side! With legion coming into the EK fold now then there will be a serious imbalance and wastage It's a complex one. Divisional teams need an identity too. The GAA require club championships to have no more than 16 teams. This has influenced the reduction of senior teams to 8 in recent years. No more than 3 intermediate teams, if possible, should be the solution. In the EK example, EK should split in 2. 2 other divisional teams should then amalgamate.
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horsebox77
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Our trees & mountains are silent ghosts, they hold wisdom and knowledge mankind has long forgotten.
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Post by horsebox77 on Aug 16, 2022 13:00:38 GMT
I’ve suggested on here before that we could try and move towards a points system for divisional sides whereby you can have a max of, for example, 12 points and each intermediate team is 3 points, junior is 2 and junior b is 1. There would be teething problems but it would equalise things and that’s the whole point of divisional sides as they are a made up concept. It’s a failing that lads like donal o Sullivan could get a game for EK last year while being involved with Kerry and UL. Imagine the difference he would make to a different divisional side! With legion coming into the EK fold now then there will be a serious imbalance and wastage It's a complex one. Divisional teams need an identity too. The GAA require club championships to have no more than 16 teams. This has influenced the reduction of senior teams to 8 in recent years. No more than 3 intermediate teams, if possible, should be the solution. In the EK example, EK should split in 2. 2 other divisional teams should then amalgamate. I think a structure along the same lines as underage where St. Kieran’s/ East Kerry are more evenly split into Eoghan Rua and East Kerry. A lot of the issue arises due to championship and Divisional overlap, example, Castleisland, Brosna and Knocknagoshel playing in the NK Championship but residing in with St. Kieran’s come County Championship. Just need to segregate and assign once and for all. .
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Post by homerj on Aug 16, 2022 13:26:47 GMT
A division with 10 clubs has probably 250 to choose from. So 220 are excluded if you have a panel of 30. You need to go back to the founding principles of why the divisional system was introduced. I think one was to give good players from small clubs a chance to play county championship. It looks like about 220 club players in EK are not given that chance. i agree so to speak but vast majority of those 220 probably have no willingness to play for east kerry and are happy just to stick to their club. generally the right players are there youd imagine. that said, be interesting to see if there was appetite for an underdogs type scenario of amalgamation of players around the country not selected, to form one extra team to enter the county championship for one year as a trial
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 16, 2022 13:35:24 GMT
I’ve suggested on here before that we could try and move towards a points system for divisional sides whereby you can have a max of, for example, 12 points and each intermediate team is 3 points, junior is 2 and junior b is 1. There would be teething problems but it would equalise things and that’s the whole point of divisional sides as they are a made up concept. It’s a failing that lads like donal o Sullivan could get a game for EK last year while being involved with Kerry and UL. Imagine the difference he would make to a different divisional side! With legion coming into the EK fold now then there will be a serious imbalance and wastage It's a complex one. Divisional teams need an identity too. The GAA require club championships to have no more than 16 teams. This has influenced the reduction of senior teams to 8 in recent years. No more than 3 intermediate teams, if possible, should be the solution. In the EK example, EK should split in 2. 2 other divisional teams should then amalgamate. I suggested that earlier! But actually got rid of 2 and split EK with a playoff happening to kick out the last team
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Post by onlykerry on Aug 16, 2022 14:11:13 GMT
A lot of the issues stem from the need/desire to have 16 teams in the competition.
Expand it to 20 and have a rule that a division can have 3 intermediate sides at max and 6/7/8 sides in total max - this ensures a maximum number of club players can participate.
10 senior clubs and up to 10 divisional sides - choice of a round robin with 4 groups of 5 giving (2 to qualify) every team an off weekend which I think is desirable as current sprint is hard on players and clubs in particular as they tend to have smaller panels. Alternatively play 10 round 1 matches with the ten losers playing off to five - then have an open draw with 15 (1 gets a bye) and you are off and running again.
The premise that the competition must start with 16 sides needs to stop being a limiting factor.
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Post by legendz on Aug 16, 2022 15:36:39 GMT
A lot of the issues stem from the need/desire to have 16 teams in the competition. Expand it to 20 and have a rule that a division can have 3 intermediate sides at max and 6/7/8 sides in total max - this ensures a maximum number of club players can participate. 10 senior clubs and up to 10 divisional sides - choice of a round robin with 4 groups of 5 giving (2 to qualify) every team an off weekend which I think is desirable as current sprint is hard on players and clubs in particular as they tend to have smaller panels. Alternatively play 10 round 1 matches with the ten losers playing off to five - then have an open draw with 15 (1 gets a bye) and you are off and running again. The premise that the competition must start with 16 sides needs to stop being a limiting factor. Croke Park have stipulated the 16 team limit.
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Post by legendz on Aug 16, 2022 15:53:13 GMT
It's a complex one. Divisional teams need an identity too. The GAA require club championships to have no more than 16 teams. This has influenced the reduction of senior teams to 8 in recent years. No more than 3 intermediate teams, if possible, should be the solution. In the EK example, EK should split in 2. 2 other divisional teams should then amalgamate. I suggested that earlier! But actually got rid of 2 and split EK with a playoff happening to kick out the last team Your 12 point system has merit. Intermediate teams with a 3 point rating and Junior Premier with a 1 point rating however. I would still add the caveat of no more than 3 intermediate club in a divisional team. There would have to be a minimum standard of 3 points as well. Suggested Divisional limits: 3 intermediate and 3 junior premier is 12 points. 2 intermediate and 6 junior premier is 12 points. 1 intermediate and 9 junior premier is 12 points. P 0 intermediate and 12 junior premier is 12 points. There would also have to be a minimum standard: 1 intermediate and 0 junior premier is 3 points. 0 intermediate and 3 junior premier is 3 points. These are only numbers. Implementing a solution is complex. There would also have to be agreement that there are always an agreed number of divisional teams e.g. 8 this year. I wouldn't go down the road of divisional teams playing off when an amalgamation for a year is possible. If St. Brendan's and Mid Kerry had to amalgamate for a year, simply call them St Brendan's/Mid Kerry for the year. Everyone will be able to identify with what's going on.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 16, 2022 16:16:55 GMT
I suggested that earlier! But actually got rid of 2 and split EK with a playoff happening to kick out the last team Your 12 point system has merit. Intermediate teams with a 3 point rating and Junior Premier with a 1 point rating however. I would still add the caveat of no more than 3 intermediate club in a divisional team. There would have to be a minimum standard of 3 points as well. Suggested Divisional limits: 3 intermediate and 3 junior premier is 12 points. 2 intermediate and 6 junior premier is 12 points. 1 intermediate and 9 junior premier is 12 points. P 0 intermediate and 12 junior premier is 12 points. There would also have to be a minimum standard: 1 intermediate and 0 junior premier is 3 points. 0 intermediate and 3 junior premier is 3 points. These are only numbers. Implementing a solution is complex. There would also have to be agreement that there are always an agreed number of divisional teams e.g. 8 this year. I wouldn't go down the road of divisional teams playing off when an amalgamation for a year is possible. If St. Brendan's and Mid Kerry had to amalgamate for a year, simply call them St Brendan's/Mid Kerry for the year. Everyone will be able to identify with what's going on. Yeah it would be a bit difficult to implement initially but i think it has merit. The idea of a minimum makes sense also. The whole point of divisional sides is that they bring extra competitiveness to the championship and allow players from small Lee clubs to play senior. At the moment east Kerry are very strong and a few other divisional sides are very poor so that imbalance needs to be addressed I also feel there needs to be some form of penalty for a poorly performing divisional side. Shannon rangers are in the championship again this year but legion would have hammered them last year, yet legion still go down and Shannon rangers can motor along. Same for feale rangers at the moment.
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Post by legendz on Aug 16, 2022 17:22:34 GMT
Your 12 point system has merit. Intermediate teams with a 3 point rating and Junior Premier with a 1 point rating however. I would still add the caveat of no more than 3 intermediate club in a divisional team. There would have to be a minimum standard of 3 points as well. Suggested Divisional limits: 3 intermediate and 3 junior premier is 12 points. 2 intermediate and 6 junior premier is 12 points. 1 intermediate and 9 junior premier is 12 points. P 0 intermediate and 12 junior premier is 12 points. There would also have to be a minimum standard: 1 intermediate and 0 junior premier is 3 points. 0 intermediate and 3 junior premier is 3 points. These are only numbers. Implementing a solution is complex. There would also have to be agreement that there are always an agreed number of divisional teams e.g. 8 this year. I wouldn't go down the road of divisional teams playing off when an amalgamation for a year is possible. If St. Brendan's and Mid Kerry had to amalgamate for a year, simply call them St Brendan's/Mid Kerry for the year. Everyone will be able to identify with what's going on. Yeah it would be a bit difficult to implement initially but i think it has merit. The idea of a minimum makes sense also. The whole point of divisional sides is that they bring extra competitiveness to the championship and allow players from small Lee clubs to play senior. At the moment east Kerry are very strong and a few other divisional sides are very poor so that imbalance needs to be addressed I also feel there needs to be some form of penalty for a poorly performing divisional side. Shannon rangers are in the championship again this year but legion would have hammered them last year, yet legion still go down and Shannon rangers can motor along. Same for feale rangers at the moment. East Kerry: Firies, Fossa 1, Glenflesk 3, Gneevguilla 3, Listry 1, Rathmore 3, Kilcummin 3, Tuosist, Kilgarvan and Legion 3. (17) Feale Rangers: Clounmacon, Duagh, Finuge, Listowel Emmets 1, Moyvane, and St. Senan's 1. (2) Mid Kerry: Beaufort 3, Cromane, Glenbeigh-Glencar 3, Keel 1, Laune Rangers 3 and Milltown/Castlemaine 3. (13) Shannon Rangers: Asdee, Ballydonoghue 3, Ballyduff 1, Ballylongford, Beale and Tarbert. (4) South Kerry: Derrynane, Dromid Pearses 3, Renard, Skellig Rangers 1, Sneem, St. Mary's 3, Valentia Young Islanders, Waterville 1 and St.Michaels/Foilmore 1.(9) St Brendan's: Churchill 1, John Mitchell's 3, St. Patrick's Blennerville 1 and Ardfert 1.(6) St Kieran's: Ballymacelligott 1, Brosna 1, Castleisland Desmonds 3, Cordal, Currow 3, Knocknagoshel and Scartaglin. (8) West Kerry: Annascaul 1, Castlegregory 1, Lispole and An Ghaeltacht 3. (5) East Kerry 17 Mid Kerry 13 South Kerry 9 St. Kieran's 8 St. Brendan's 6 West Kerry 5 Shannon Rangers 4 Feale Rangers 2 On a point system of 3 for every intermediate club and 1 for every junior premier club, East Kerry and Mid Kerry are over 12 points. Feale Rangers are less than 3 points. Shannon Rangers amalgamating with Feale Rangers is a standout. East Kerry is a standout to be split in two. Mid Kerry is in split territory as well.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 16, 2022 18:21:21 GMT
I was saying 2 points for junior premier and 1 point for junior/junior b
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Post by legendz on Aug 16, 2022 18:33:10 GMT
I was saying 2 points for junior premier and 1 point for junior/junior b 2 points for junior premier and 1 point for junior/junior b should mean 4 points for intermediate? I think 3 points for intermediate and 1 point for junior premier is fair enough. I won't split hairs over it!
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 16, 2022 19:49:46 GMT
I was saying 2 points for junior premier and 1 point for junior/junior b 2 points for junior premier and 1 point for junior/junior b should mean 4 points for intermediate? I think 3 points for intermediate and 1 point for junior premier is fair enough. I won't split hairs over it! I’m happy with the 4 for intermediate but would prob raise the points to 14 then, which would cap a team at 3 inter and 1 premier junior. Will we run for county chairman on a joint ticket??
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Post by legendz on Aug 16, 2022 20:29:27 GMT
2 points for junior premier and 1 point for junior/junior b should mean 4 points for intermediate? I think 3 points for intermediate and 1 point for junior premier is fair enough. I won't split hairs over it! I’m happy with the 4 for intermediate but would prob raise the points to 14 then, which would cap a team at 3 inter and 1 premier junior. Will we run for county chairman on a joint ticket?? 3 inter and 1 premier is restrictive. In an ideal world all divisional teams would have 2 inter and 2 premier each. Taking 3 inter and 3 premier as a fair limit, 12 points for that seemed the best fit. If we can agree on 3-1-0 with your 12 point limit, anything is possible!!
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 16, 2022 21:11:19 GMT
I’m happy with the 4 for intermediate but would prob raise the points to 14 then, which would cap a team at 3 inter and 1 premier junior. Will we run for county chairman on a joint ticket?? 3 inter and 1 premier is restrictive. In an ideal world all divisional teams would have 2 inter and 2 premier each. Taking 3 inter and 3 premier as a fair limit, 12 points for that seemed the best fit. If we can agree on 3-1-0 with your 12 point limit, anything is possible!! I’m not saying that my suggestion is correct and I’m happy for people to add to/alter it but at the end of the day all I want is a competitive championship where every team has a chance of winning it, or at least competing. It just breaks my heart when I see a poorly organised divisional team get hammered yet maintain their championship Status, while hard working clubs are relegated and while other divisional sides are leaving Kerry panelists on the bench. We need to keep the divisional sides relatively fluid as the overall goal needs to always be- what is best for the Kerry senior team, everything else takes a back seat, even my own club
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Post by legendz on Aug 17, 2022 6:27:10 GMT
3 inter and 1 premier is restrictive. In an ideal world all divisional teams would have 2 inter and 2 premier each. Taking 3 inter and 3 premier as a fair limit, 12 points for that seemed the best fit. If we can agree on 3-1-0 with your 12 point limit, anything is possible!! I’m not saying that my suggestion is correct and I’m happy for people to add to/alter it but at the end of the day all I want is a competitive championship where every team has a chance of winning it, or at least competing. It just breaks my heart when I see a poorly organised divisional team get hammered yet maintain their championship Status, while hard working clubs are relegated and while other divisional sides are leaving Kerry panelists on the bench. We need to keep the divisional sides relatively fluid as the overall goal needs to always be- what is best for the Kerry senior team, everything else takes a back seat, even my own club I think most people are in agreement that East Kerry is in split territory. Most people are also in agreement that Shannon Rangers and Feale Rangers are currently in amalgamation territory. East Kerry 17 Mid Kerry 13 South Kerry 9 St. Kieran's 8 St. Brendan's 6 West Kerry 5 Shannon Rangers 4 Feale Rangers 2 Rating 3 points for inter and 1 point for premier seems to put that into a fair points system. If you use 3-2-1, a divisional side with 3 inter is then limited to 1 premier and 1 junior. 8 team relatively fluid amalgamation: Mid Kerry 13 East Kerry 9 South Kerry 9 Eoghan Ruadh 8 St. Kieran's 8 St. Brendan's 6 North Kerry 6 West Kerry 5
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 17, 2022 16:58:15 GMT
I do think relegating Stacks down to the novice championship should definitely be on the table as an option
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Jo90
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Post by Jo90 on Aug 18, 2022 10:14:45 GMT
A lot of the issues stem from the need/desire to have 16 teams in the competition. Expand it to 20 and have a rule that a division can have 3 intermediate sides at max and 6/7/8 sides in total max - this ensures a maximum number of club players can participate. 10 senior clubs and up to 10 divisional sides - choice of a round robin with 4 groups of 5 giving (2 to qualify) every team an off weekend which I think is desirable as current sprint is hard on players and clubs in particular as they tend to have smaller panels. Alternatively play 10 round 1 matches with the ten losers playing off to five - then have an open draw with 15 (1 gets a bye) and you are off and running again. The premise that the competition must start with 16 sides needs to stop being a limiting factor. Croke Park have stipulated the 16 team limit. There's a lot more than 16 teams in the Cork Junior Football Championship
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Post by clarinman on Aug 18, 2022 19:18:40 GMT
Croke Park have stipulated the 16 team limit. There's a lot more than 16 teams in the Cork Junior Football Championship The 16 team limit for club championships comes into effect for all counties in 2023.
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Post by legendz on Aug 18, 2022 20:11:38 GMT
There's a lot more than 16 teams in the Cork Junior Football Championship The 16 team limit for club championships comes into effect for all counties in 2023. Senior & Intermediate Club Championships will be capped at 16 teams from 2023. Junior Club Championships are not affected. Cork have a separate divisional/colleges section to their championship. They seem to have been given assurances that that is allowed i.e. 12 senior clubs and 8 divisional/college teams. If Kerry were to do that, 10 or 12 senior clubs could compete against each other in the county championship groups. The best divisional clubs from a separate section then would then also qualify for the quarter-finals. There is no appetite for having Kerry divisional teams in a separate section however. There's probably a small number of senior and intermediate clubs however who would try and push for it.
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Post by homerj on Aug 18, 2022 20:59:06 GMT
i would definitely like to see divisional teams play against each other in a separate comp, for one year to allow them develop and see how it goes.
imagine having a situation where 4 of the 8 divisional teams are guaranteed a 1/4 final place - would be good for development and gain interest.
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Post by legendz on Aug 19, 2022 6:15:01 GMT
i would definitely like to see divisional teams play against each other in a separate comp, for one year to allow them develop and see how it goes. imagine having a situation where 4 of the 8 divisional teams are guaranteed a 1/4 final place - would be good for development and gain interest. I'll try and sidestep talk of divisional teams being in a separate section. I will add the following however: 12 senior clubs could play in 2 groups of 6. Group winners into Senior Club Championship final. 2nd and 3rd into County Championship preliminary quarter-finals. 8 divisional teams could then compete in 2 groups of 4. Top 2 advancing to the County quarter-finals. In the quarter-finals, draw the Senior Club finalists against the divisional group runners-up. Draw the divisional group winners against the preliminary quarter-final winners. This format fits this year's fixture schedule. Senior club championship can play 3 weekends, have a weekend off and then play 2 weekend plus final. If a divisional team wins the county championship, the senior club champion can go forward to Munster.
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Post by onlykerry on Aug 19, 2022 8:53:51 GMT
The issue with a divisional competition is primarily logistical - where would it go in the calendar. All Intermediate, Junior Premier and Junior clubs would be involved to some extent and therefore all these grades would need to clear their calendars. It works wonderfully at u15 where there is a great divisional competition but their calendar is far less congested.
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Post by legendz on Aug 19, 2022 9:35:04 GMT
The issue with a divisional competition is primarily logistical - where would it go in the calendar. All Intermediate, Junior Premier and Junior clubs would be involved to some extent and therefore all these grades would need to clear their calendars. It works wonderfully at u15 where there is a great divisional competition but their calendar is far less congested. It's not that logistically difficult. 8 divisional clubs could compete in 2 groups of 4 on the same dates as this year's county. The top 2 in each group can join 4 senior clubs in the county quarter-finals. This is the logistics. Agreement on that is a different matter.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 21, 2022 20:41:44 GMT
I do think relegating Stacks down to the novice championship should definitely be on the table as an option Looks like we could be in business
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diego
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Posts: 1,099
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Post by diego on Aug 29, 2022 19:11:44 GMT
The Kerryman reporting that Jack Savage and Cormac Coffey will be out of the country for work reasons at championship time. m.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/sport/gaa/kerry-county-senior-football-championship-dates-times-and-venues-set-for-first-round-of-group-games-41943415.htmlDon't know what players have opted in or out of the East Kerry set up for this year, but if they are all around and interested in playing and with the group format giving them time to build cohesion and avoid an ambush like last year, it's hard to see who will beat them. Here would be just some of the small army of players they could be calling on.. Goalkeepers Shane Ryan(if not used in forward line), Brendan Kealy, Brian Kelly Full back line Dara O'Callaghan, Chris O'Donoghue, Owen Fitzgerald, Niall O'Donoghue Half backs Paul Murphy, Jonathan Lyne, Cian Gammell, Daniel O'Brien, Pa Warren, Jack Sherwood Midfielders Paul O'Shea, Darragh Lyne, Padraig Lucey, Kieran Murphy Half forwards Paudie Clifford, Ruairi Murphy, Patrick Darcy, Conor Herlihy Full forwards Darragh Roche, David Clifford, James O'Donoghue, John Moynihan, Donal O'Sullivan
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Post by clarinman on Aug 29, 2022 20:15:19 GMT
The Kerryman reporting that Jack Savage and Cormac Coffey will be out of the country for work reasons at championship time. m.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/sport/gaa/kerry-county-senior-football-championship-dates-times-and-venues-set-for-first-round-of-group-games-41943415.htmlDon't know what players have opted in or out of the East Kerry set up for this year, but if they are all around and interested in playing and with the group format giving them time to build cohesion and avoid an ambush like last year, it's hard to see who will beat them. Here would be just some of the small army of players they could be calling on.. Goalkeepers Shane Ryan(if not used in forward line), Brendan Kealy, Brian Kelly Full back line Dara O'Callaghan, Chris O'Donoghue, Owen Fitzgerald, Niall O'Donoghue Half backs Paul Murphy, Jonathan Lyne, Cian Gammell, Daniel O'Brien, Pa Warren, Jack Sherwood Midfielders Paul O'Shea, Darragh Lyne, Padraig Lucey, Kieran Murphy Half forwards Paudie Clifford, Ruairi Murphy, Patrick Darcy, Conor Herlihy Full forwards Darragh Roche, David Clifford, James O'Donoghue, John Moynihan, Donal O'Sullivan Danny Sheehan from legion must come into consideration for backline. Are Mark Ryan from rathmore and Ronan Buckley from Listry playing this year? They were midfield in previous East Kerry wins. Kieran Murphy was very good for kilcummin yesterday and kicked 3 points from play. Paul O'Shea started full forward and moved to centre forward. He was very disappointing.
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