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Post by Moderator on Aug 8, 2022 19:03:50 GMT
Format: 4 groups of 4, 2021 semi-finalists top seed in each group. Top 2 from each group to quarter-finals.
Schedule: Group games 10/11 Sept, 17/18 Sept, and 24/25 Sept, quarter-finals 8/9 Oct, semi-finals 16 Oct, Final 30 October with replay on 5 Nov if needed.
Group 1: Dr. Crokes, Shannon Rangers, Kenmare Shamrocks, St. Kieran's
Group 2: Kerins O'Rahilly's, Spa, Dingle, East Kerry
Group 3: Austin Stacks, West Kerry, Mid-Kerry, Na Gaeil
Group 4: St. Brendan's, South Kerry, Templenoe, Feale Rangers
First round fixtures: Team 1 v Team 4 and Team 3 v Team 2 in each group, with all games at neutral venues.
Second round fixtures will be dependent on Rd 1 results, similar to the club championships where the winner plays the loser of the other game, with a draw made if a game ends level.
Edit to reflect current schedule (as of 9 Aug).
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Post by blacksheep21 on Aug 8, 2022 20:02:06 GMT
I guess group 2 will be the proverbial group of death
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Post by legendz on Aug 10, 2022 8:22:10 GMT
Second round fixtures will be dependent on Rd 1 results, similar to the club championships where the winner plays the loser of the other game, with a draw made if a game ends level. When Round 1 winners avoid each other in Round 2, it increases the possibility of the top 2 being on 4 points before Round 3. This increases dead rubbers in Round 3. Round 1 winners should play in Round 2. It increase the possibility of two teams with 1 win each playing each other in Round 3, with the winner qualifying for the quarter-finals.
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Post by Moderator on Aug 10, 2022 17:21:05 GMT
Second round fixtures will be dependent on Rd 1 results, similar to the club championships where the winner plays the loser of the other game, with a draw made if a game ends level. When Round 1 winners avoid each other in Round 2, it increases the possibility of the top 2 being on 4 points before Round 3. This increases dead rubbers in Round 3. Round 1 winners should play in Round 2. It increase the possibility of two teams with 1 win each playing each other in Round 3, with the winner qualifying for the quarter-finals.
Not sure what the best method is, to be honest. The Rd 2 fixtures plan is what was said during the draw "same as the club championships" without any further details/confirmation that it is Rd 1 winner v Rd 1 loser.
There will be dead rubbers either way...but you'd think the top teams in a group meeting in Rd 3 would be the best way? Assuming they didn't meet in Rd 1, of course, like Kerins O'Rahilly's and East Kerry will and they being many people's pick for the top two in Group 2.
So should groups be seeded 1-4 maybe?
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 10, 2022 17:32:32 GMT
A team that loses two games should be out in my opinion.
The old system of a losers round was better
In that format a team that lost 2 games was out.
No dead rubber in that scenario.
Given that weekends are scarce for play club and county championships, things should be organised to avoid pointless dead rubber matches
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Post by southward on Aug 10, 2022 17:43:45 GMT
A team that loses two games should be out in my opinion. The old system of a losers round was better In that format a team that lost 2 games was out. No dead rubber in that scenario. Given that weekends are scarce for play club and county championships, things should be organised to avoid pointless dead rubber matches I'm confused here. The 4 teams are all playing each other, so 3 games each, yeah? But why are the second round fixtures dependent on 1st round results? I don't get it. Great profile pic btw.
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Post by Moderator on Aug 10, 2022 17:54:22 GMT
A team that loses two games should be out in my opinion. The old system of a losers round was better In that format a team that lost 2 games was out. No dead rubber in that scenario. Given that weekends are scarce for play club and county championships, things should be organised to avoid pointless dead rubber matches I'm confused here. The 4 teams are all playing each other, so 3 games each, yeah? But why are the second round fixtures dependent on 1st round results? I don't get it. Great profile pic btw.
Rd 1 and Rd 2 refer to the first and second group games. After the Rd 3 group games, the top 2 in each group go the quarter finals.
The first game is based on a draw, team 1 v team 4 and team 3 v team 2 this year. A team's second game will be dependent on the result of the first game - I understand the winner of one game plays the loser of the other (with a draw to be made if any game 1 ends level). Third game will be between the winners of game 1.
Keeps interest for game 3, I suppose, but only if the two best teams don't meet in the first game.
The old system of a losers round meant two games at a minimum and three weeks to get to the quarter-final. In the group system, it still takes three weeks to get to the quarter-final, but teams are guaranteed at least three games.
I wonder if the next thoughts will turn to the "preliminary quarter-final" option, where the teams that finish second and third in the group play off to join the 4 group winners in the quarter-finals (the model for inter-county championships in 2023)?
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Post by onlykerry on Aug 10, 2022 18:17:00 GMT
A team that loses two games should be out in my opinion. The old system of a losers round was better In that format a team that lost 2 games was out. No dead rubber in that scenario. Given that weekends are scarce for play club and county championships, things should be organised to avoid pointless dead rubber matches Not sure if I like the current format either - however in terms of the number of weekends required to run off the competition it is the same either way. I think I am still a bit old school - lose a game in the championship and you are out is my preferred format by far -even the alternative format with a losers round is not a great option. Play a shield competition if you want to give teams a second game. Anyway we have what we have and it will be interesting - will there be double headers in the first (neutral) round of games?
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 10, 2022 20:05:46 GMT
I'm confused here. The 4 teams are all playing each other, so 3 games each, yeah? But why are the second round fixtures dependent on 1st round results? I don't get it. Great profile pic btw. Rd 1 and Rd 2 refer to the first and second group games. After the Rd 3 group games, the top 2 in each group go the quarter finals. The first game is based on a draw, team 1 v team 4 and team 3 v team 2 this year. A team's second game will be dependent on the result of the first game - I understand the winner of one game plays the loser of the other (with a draw to be made if any game 1 ends level). Third game will be between the winners of game 1.
Keeps interest for game 3, I suppose, but only if the two best teams don't meet in the first game. The old system of a losers round meant two games at a minimum and three weeks to get to the quarter-final. In the group system, it still takes three weeks to get to the quarter-final, but teams are guaranteed at least three games. I wonder if the next thoughts will turn to the "preliminary quarter-final" option, where the teams that finish second and third in the group play off to join the 4 group winners in the quarter-finals (the model for inter-county championships in 2023)? I am lost now.
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Post by legendz on Aug 10, 2022 21:24:25 GMT
When Round 1 winners avoid each other in Round 2, it increases the possibility of the top 2 being on 4 points before Round 3. This increases dead rubbers in Round 3. Round 1 winners should play in Round 2. It increase the possibility of two teams with 1 win each playing each other in Round 3, with the winner qualifying for the quarter-finals. Not sure what the best method is, to be honest. The Rd 2 fixtures plan is what was said during the draw "same as the club championships" without any further details/confirmation that it is Rd 1 winner v Rd 1 loser.
There will be dead rubbers either way...but you'd think the top teams in a group meeting in Rd 3 would be the best way? Assuming they didn't meet in Rd 1, of course, like Kerins O'Rahilly's and East Kerry will and they being many people's pick for the top two in Group 2. So should groups be seeded 1-4 maybe?
I'm saying you want to avoid two teams with 2 wins each playing in Round 3 in the county championship. I'll take a random example. Dead Rubber example; Round 1: Stacks beat St Brendan's and Rahilly's beat Crokes. Round 2: Stacks beat Crokes and Rahilly's beat St Brendan's. Before Round 3: Stacks and Rahilly's with 2 wins have already qualified before they play in Round 3. Crokes and St Brendan's are already eliminated before they play in Round 3. Avoiding dead rubber as much as possible example; Round 1: Stacks beat St Brendan's and Rahilly's beat Crokes. Round 2: Stacks play Rahilly's and Crokes play St Brendan's. (Stacks win and Crokes win) Round 3: Only one team can be on 2 wins. Stacks (2 wins) play Crokes (1 win). Rahilly's (1 win) play St Brendan's (0 wins) Stacks on 2 wins could still be knocked out by a Crokes and Rahilly's win in Round 3. St. Brendan's could qualify with a win and a Stacks win. Note 1: The club championships have relegation. They suit the possibility of 2 teams with no wins playing in the final group match. (Round 1 winners avoiding each other in Round 2 suits the club championships.) Note 2: The County Championship doesn't have relegation. (Round 1 winners playing each other in Round 2 suits the county championship.)
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Post by legendz on Aug 10, 2022 21:27:47 GMT
I'm confused here. The 4 teams are all playing each other, so 3 games each, yeah? But why are the second round fixtures dependent on 1st round results? I don't get it. Great profile pic btw. Rd 1 and Rd 2 refer to the first and second group games. After the Rd 3 group games, the top 2 in each group go the quarter finals. The first game is based on a draw, team 1 v team 4 and team 3 v team 2 this year. A team's second game will be dependent on the result of the first game - I understand the winner of one game plays the loser of the other (with a draw to be made if any game 1 ends level). Third game will be between the winners of game 1.
Keeps interest for game 3, I suppose, but only if the two best teams don't meet in the first game. The old system of a losers round meant two games at a minimum and three weeks to get to the quarter-final. In the group system, it still takes three weeks to get to the quarter-final, but teams are guaranteed at least three games. I wonder if the next thoughts will turn to the "preliminary quarter-final" option, where the teams that finish second and third in the group play off to join the 4 group winners in the quarter-finals (the model for inter-county championships in 2023)? The Preliminary Quarter-final is a bad precedent for the GAA to be setting when club/county championships are being encouraged to be a bit more streamlined.
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Post by Moderator on Aug 10, 2022 21:33:04 GMT
Good post there, legendz. Hard to argue with your points, especially the relegation issue being highlighted.
It's all a matter of what the County Board decision makers want, I suppose.
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Post by legendz on Aug 11, 2022 6:57:19 GMT
Good post there, legendz. Hard to argue with your points, especially the relegation issue being highlighted. It's all a matter of what the County Board decision makers want, I suppose. True, it's all a matter of what the County Board decision makers want. They will often react to situations as they arise. I think they will quickly see that 2 winners playing in Round 3 is the fixture to be avoided in the County championship. A few years back Dublin and Tyrone played in Round 3 of the Super 8s with 2 wins each. Roscommon and Cork had lost twice. The result was two dead rubbers. Dublin beat Cork and Tyrone beat Roscommon in Round 1. Dublin and Tyrone should have played in Round 2.
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Post by An Ciarraíoch Taistealaíoch on Aug 11, 2022 8:29:48 GMT
I think the current set up is to facilitate a home game as a reward for the winners of the R1 games.
Round 1: all neutral venues. Round 2: R1 winners play at home Round 3: R1 losers play at home.
I agree with you regarding dead rubbers though.
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Post by An Ciarraíoch Taistealaíoch on Aug 11, 2022 8:32:15 GMT
I think the current set up is to facilitate a home game as a reward for the winners of the R1 games. Round 1: all neutral venues. Round 2: R1 winners play at home Round 3: R1 losers play at home. I agree with you regarding dead rubbers though. The preliminary quarter finals suit stronger teams/squads as there is less chance of them being caught out. They definately go against the concept of streamlining the season!
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Post by legendz on Aug 11, 2022 9:29:59 GMT
I think the current set up is to facilitate a home game as a reward for the winners of the R1 games. Round 1: all neutral venues. Round 2: R1 winners play at home Round 3: R1 losers play at home. I agree with you regarding dead rubbers though. The preliminary quarter finals suit stronger teams/squads as there is less chance of them being caught out. They definately go against the concept of streamlining the season! In that scenario, two R1 winners could be at home in R2 and then playing each other in R3. This would also mean two R1 losers playing in R3. Only one of the R1 losers could be at home.
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Post by An Ciarraíoch Taistealaíoch on Aug 14, 2022 15:56:47 GMT
In that scenario, two R1 winners could be at home in R2 and then playing each other in R3. This would also mean two R1 losers playing in R3. Only one of the R1 losers could be at home. You are correct in picking out the hole in my logic, I stand corrected.
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Post by legendz on Aug 15, 2022 12:57:42 GMT
www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/sport/gaa/proposal-to-run-county-sfc-with-four-groups-of-four-while-number-of-divisional-teams-could-eventually-be-cut-to-six-41304179.htmlAt the beginning of year, the review of the county senior football championship recommended that the county SFC would be better served by including 10 club teams and six divisional teams. East Kerry: Firies, Fossa, Glenflesk, Gneevguilla, Listry, Rathmore, Kilcummin, Tuosist, Kilgarvan and Legion. Feale Rangers: Clounmacon, Duagh, Finuge, Listowel Emmets, Moyvane, and St. Senan's. Mid Kerry: Beaufort, Cromane, Glenbeigh-Glencar, Keel, Laune Rangers and Milltown/Castlemaine. Shannon Rangers: Asdee, Ballydonoghue, Ballyduff, Ballylongford, Beale and Tarbert. South Kerry: Derrynane, Dromid Pearses, Renard, Skellig Rangers, Sneem, St. Mary's, Valentia Young Islanders, Waterville and St.Michaels/Foilmore. St Brendan's: Churchill, John Mitchell's, St. Patrick's Blennerville and Ardfert. St Kieran's: Ballymacelligott, Brosna, Castleisland Desmonds, Cordal, Currow, Knocknagoshel and Scartaglin. West Kerry: Annascaul, Castlegregory, Lispole and An Ghaeltacht. What would be a fair restructure/amalgamation of the divisional teams into six?
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Post by dodgyknees on Aug 15, 2022 14:34:20 GMT
www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/sport/gaa/proposal-to-run-county-sfc-with-four-groups-of-four-while-number-of-divisional-teams-could-eventually-be-cut-to-six-41304179.htmlAt the beginning of year, the review of the county senior football championship recommended that the county SFC would be better served by including 10 club teams and six divisional teams. East Kerry: Firies, Fossa, Glenflesk, Gneevguilla, Listry, Rathmore, Kilcummin, Tuosist, Kilgarvan and Legion. Feale Rangers: Clounmacon, Duagh, Finuge, Listowel Emmets, Moyvane, and St. Senan's.Mid Kerry: Beaufort, Cromane, Glenbeigh-Glencar, Keel, Laune Rangers and Milltown/Castlemaine. Shannon Rangers: Asdee, Ballydonoghue, Ballyduff, Ballylongford, Beale and Tarbert.South Kerry: Derrynane, Dromid Pearses, Renard, Skellig Rangers, Sneem, St. Mary's, Valentia Young Islanders, Waterville and St.Michaels/Foilmore. S t Brendan's: Churchill, John Mitchell's, St. Patrick's Blennerville and Ardfert.St Kieran's: Ballymacelligott, Brosna, Castleisland Desmonds, Cordal, Currow, Knocknagoshel and Scartaglin.West Kerry: Annascaul, Castlegregory, Lispole and An Ghaeltacht. What would be a fair restructure/amalgamation of the divisional teams into six? It would seem logical to combine: 1) Feale Rangers and Shannon Rangers 2) St Kierans and St. Brendans They would be made of 11 & 12 teams in each amalgamation which is a lot.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 15, 2022 14:45:51 GMT
www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/sport/gaa/proposal-to-run-county-sfc-with-four-groups-of-four-while-number-of-divisional-teams-could-eventually-be-cut-to-six-41304179.htmlAt the beginning of year, the review of the county senior football championship recommended that the county SFC would be better served by including 10 club teams and six divisional teams. East Kerry: Firies, Fossa, Glenflesk, Gneevguilla, Listry, Rathmore, Kilcummin, Tuosist, Kilgarvan and Legion. Feale Rangers: Clounmacon, Duagh, Finuge, Listowel Emmets, Moyvane, and St. Senan's.Mid Kerry: Beaufort, Cromane, Glenbeigh-Glencar, Keel, Laune Rangers and Milltown/Castlemaine. Shannon Rangers: Asdee, Ballydonoghue, Ballyduff, Ballylongford, Beale and Tarbert.South Kerry: Derrynane, Dromid Pearses, Renard, Skellig Rangers, Sneem, St. Mary's, Valentia Young Islanders, Waterville and St.Michaels/Foilmore. S t Brendan's: Churchill, John Mitchell's, St. Patrick's Blennerville and Ardfert.St Kieran's: Ballymacelligott, Brosna, Castleisland Desmonds, Cordal, Currow, Knocknagoshel and Scartaglin.West Kerry: Annascaul, Castlegregory, Lispole and An Ghaeltacht. What would be a fair restructure/amalgamation of the divisional teams into six? It would seem logical to combine: 1) Feale Rangers and Shannon Rangers 2) St Kierans and St. Brendans They would be made of 11 & 12 teams in each amalgamation which is a lot. The divisional sides, by their nature, are always relatively fluid so there should be no problem redrawing some boundaries. I’d scrap at Kieran’s, put some of the teams in with a combinednorth Kerry team,, some in with Brendan’s and some with east Kerry. I would then split east Kerry into east Kerry & Eoghan rua, like they do at underage level. I would then have a preliminary round between the club team who were relegated via the club championship and the previous years worst performing divisional team to decide who is the last team to drop out
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Post by onlykerry on Aug 15, 2022 16:53:05 GMT
In re-drawing any divisional lines surely some consideration should be given to achieving a balance across the divisions - the basic concept of divisional sides is to bring supposedly weaker club sides into a grouping that gives players a crack at winning the county championship. Having an excessively strong division means some club players never get this chance. Divisional sides should have some form of cap either in terms of the number of D1 and D2 league sides per division or the number of intermediate sides per division.
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Post by legendz on Aug 15, 2022 17:39:31 GMT
It would seem logical to combine: 1) Feale Rangers and Shannon Rangers 2) St Kierans and St. Brendans They would be made of 11 & 12 teams in each amalgamation which is a lot. The divisional sides, by their nature, are always relatively fluid so there should be no problem redrawing some boundaries. I’d scrap at Kieran’s, put some of the teams in with a combinednorth Kerry team,, some in with Brendan’s and some with east Kerry. I would then split east Kerry into east Kerry & Eoghan rua, like they do at underage level. I would then have a preliminary round between the club team who were relegated via the club championship and the previous years worst performing divisional team to decide who is the last team to drop out Logical suggestions. Feale Rangers and Shannon Rangers amalgamating to become North Kerry. There might be some merit in Tralee clubs and Blennerville joining West Kerry? Ardfert and Churchill then to the most logical neighbouring divisional team?
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Post by clarinman on Aug 15, 2022 18:55:45 GMT
Should there be some limit on the number of intermediate teams that can play with a division? East Kerry have 5 intermediate teams this year - legion, rathmore, glenflesk, kilcummin and gneevguilla. Throw in the 2 Clifford's and they are unbeatable if they get their act together.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 15, 2022 19:07:33 GMT
I think reducing the number of divisional sides is diluting a strength of the Kerry County Championship.
I am not sure how, but a system that weeds out the divisional sides who have not got their act together, and avoids a powerhouse like East Kerry (moving to ten senior clubs would help this), is better than this proposal is my opinion.
Easier said than done.
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Post by blacksheep21 on Aug 15, 2022 19:21:45 GMT
There will always be a tension with the divisional sides in that you want them to be competitive but ideally they would not win too often. Tradition does count even with divisional sides and there should be something that ties the clubs together. I think another couple of clubs should be playing senior championship and I agree that one north Kerry division is sufficient.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 15, 2022 19:26:22 GMT
The divisional sides, by their nature, are always relatively fluid so there should be no problem redrawing some boundaries. I’d scrap at Kieran’s, put some of the teams in with a combinednorth Kerry team,, some in with Brendan’s and some with east Kerry. I would then split east Kerry into east Kerry & Eoghan rua, like they do at underage level. I would then have a preliminary round between the club team who were relegated via the club championship and the previous years worst performing divisional team to decide who is the last team to drop out Logical suggestions. Feale Rangers and Shannon Rangers amalgamating to become North Kerry. There might be some merit in Tralee clubs and Blennerville joining West Kerry? Ardfert and Churchill then to the most logical neighbouring divisional team? Gaeltacht joining with mitchels doesn’t make more sense than Churchill joining with mitchels. Tralee to Churchill is 10 mins max
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Post by legendz on Aug 15, 2022 20:03:50 GMT
Logical suggestions. Feale Rangers and Shannon Rangers amalgamating to become North Kerry. There might be some merit in Tralee clubs and Blennerville joining West Kerry? Ardfert and Churchill then to the most logical neighbouring divisional team? Gaeltacht joining with mitchels doesn’t make more sense than Churchill joining with mitchels. Tralee to Churchill is 10 mins max I don't disagree. At the same time, I think a divisional team should have at least 5 clubs. On the subject of East Kerry having 5 intermediate clubs, no more than 3 intermediate clubs per divisional team would be the ideal. Trying to get agreement on that will be difficult and then implementing rules around it will be very convoluted. If the Senior Club Championship was 10 teams then, 2 groups of 5 would take more time to complete in an already busy schedule.
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Post by tman59 on Aug 15, 2022 22:33:35 GMT
I agree, 10 senior teams is way too much games for senior teams and not to mind they have to play Senior Co Championship also. This system is working fine. why change it? in the last 10 years clubs have won it 7 times and districts 3. Just because a district gets strong dosnt mean we have to change the whole system.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 16, 2022 6:21:22 GMT
I agree, 10 senior teams is way too much games for senior teams and not to mind they have to play Senior Co Championship also. This system is working fine. why change it? in the last 10 years clubs have won it 7 times and districts 3. Just because a district gets strong dosnt mean we have to change the whole system. The Divisional sides work well as it gives all top players a chance to play county championship. Players in East Kerry are losing out here possibly. Someone mooted the spectre of lads with senior Kerry experience only making the East Kerry bench. That should be a bigger concern than East Kerry dominating.
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 16, 2022 7:11:20 GMT
EK have 5 of the 16 intermediate clubs.
How many intermediate clubs do each if the other divisions have?
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