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Post by buck02 on Apr 7, 2022 13:07:51 GMT
I think I have a funny analogy for Gavin White. I cannot drive in front of you on a roundabout but if I drive onto a roundabout at 30 mph and you come up behind me at 100 mph from the previous exit then we crash but it is not my fault, is it? Is Ryan O'Donoghue not allowed go for that ball effectively? He is allowed go for it but he mistimed it and punched a player in the head. Nearly all cards are for mistimed challenges. I’m not saying a lad can’t challenge for a ball but if he does and then outcome is that he punches someone in the head then it is supposed to be a red card. Otherwise it would be carte Blanche for lads “leaving a bit” on players. Interesting points made by Kerrybhoy. If I went out tomorrow and eye gouged a fella during a melee, then I would rightly expect a red (and a lengthy suspension). If I went up for a high ball or in for a tackle and accidentally ended up putting a finger into a fellas eye I wouldn't expect a red. The end result would be the same, but the circumstances totally different. That's why I believe the O Donoghue incident was not a red. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2022 14:19:21 GMT
He is allowed go for it but he mistimed it and punched a player in the head. Nearly all cards are for mistimed challenges. I’m not saying a lad can’t challenge for a ball but if he does and then outcome is that he punches someone in the head then it is supposed to be a red card. Otherwise it would be carte Blanche for lads “leaving a bit” on players. Interesting points made by Kerrybhoy. If I went out tomorrow and eye gouged a fella during a melee, then I would rightly expect a red (and a lengthy suspension). If I went up for a high ball or in for a tackle and accidentally ended up putting a finger into a fellas eye I wouldn't expect a red. The end result would be the same, but the circumstances totally different. That's why I believe the O Donoghue incident was not a red. if O'Donaghue had got the ball and then got White then I'd say thet would have been OK but the fact that he took the man after the ball is gone I'd say he'd be in trouble , then you'd look at where he caught White and it was around the head area you'd be thinking it's a red. Or am I watching too much soccer? |
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dano
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Post by dano on Apr 7, 2022 14:19:43 GMT
unbelievable how unlucky Mayo have been over the last few years with injuries. I think that was one of the things that stood to Dublin. Their main core of players managed to stay healthy throughout their reign.
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 7, 2022 14:30:35 GMT
He is allowed go for it but he mistimed it and punched a player in the head. Nearly all cards are for mistimed challenges. I’m not saying a lad can’t challenge for a ball but if he does and then outcome is that he punches someone in the head then it is supposed to be a red card. Otherwise it would be carte Blanche for lads “leaving a bit” on players. I think that is a compelling argument. Essentially we must penalise innocent players to protect players against 'guilty' players. Which goes back to the point you keep reiterating: that we cannot know intent. You have changed my mind. Cillian oConnor and Aiden oShea would have been red carded so for clashing heads in 2014. |
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Jo90
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Post by Jo90 on Apr 7, 2022 14:33:56 GMT
unbelievable how unlucky Mayo have been over the last few years with injuries. I think that was one of the things that stood to Dublin. Their main core of players managed to stay healthy throughout their reign. Yes, their key players stayed healthy and for those that did get injured or were otherwise unavailable they had quality backups. Before people gets notions about Kerry winning the All-Ireland, on top of producing the performances we are heavily relied on players not getting injured or suspended, particularly a few key positions such as full-back, centre-back and full-forward. If we build up any unassailable leads in games, I think our irreplaceable players should be subbed off. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2022 14:35:05 GMT
I don’t think it is an automatic red just because you end up punching a guy in the face. Two guys going for a ball like the white incident is just one of those things.
A guy making a run with the ball and the defender tries to stop him but ends up punching him, that is a red regardless of intent. That is more reckless.
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greengold35
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Post by greengold35 on Apr 7, 2022 14:49:47 GMT
He was 100% going for the ball but you don’t referee intent, you referee outcome. So, for example, if I go to tackle a player but I’m late and punch him in the face then I’ve punched him in the face. You can’t police by intent as otherwise you’re deciding on different players characters and making a decision based on that On the John Small example, you’d be applying different rules to different players based on your opinion of the player and their intent. Sure that’s a complete nonsense I am not sure about intent/outcome; Jack Barrys tackle on Flynn looked a black card for obstruction but he got a yellow probably for dangerous play - if the ref knew the outcome, broken ankle, then it’s a red card. If you go for a ball & punch someone in the head then it’s accidental not deliberate; if your punch knocks a player out , even though you are going for the ball, is that a red card? Is it more accurate to describe deliberate vs accidental - many accidental clashes can lead to bad injuries and all black cards are for deliberate actions - admittedly this leaves a lot of discretion to the ref but that’s the way it is. |
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Apr 7, 2022 15:13:48 GMT
He was 100% going for the ball but you don’t referee intent, you referee outcome. So, for example, if I go to tackle a player but I’m late and punch him in the face then I’ve punched him in the face. You can’t police by intent as otherwise you’re deciding on different players characters and making a decision based on that On the John Small example, you’d be applying different rules to different players based on your opinion of the player and their intent. Sure that’s a complete nonsense I am not sure about intent/outcome; Jack Barrys tackle on Flynn looked a black card for obstruction but he got a yellow probably for dangerous play - if the ref knew the outcome, broken ankle, then it’s a red card. If you go for a ball & punch someone in the head then it’s accidental not deliberate; if your punch knocks a player out , even though you are going for the ball, is that a red card? Is it more accurate to describe deliberate vs accidental - many accidental clashes can lead to bad injuries and all black cards are for deliberate actions - admittedly this leaves a lot of discretion to the ref but that’s the way it is. The outcome in question isn't the injury but what happened. E.g. a fist to the head in the case of ROD rather than e.g. a head injury. |
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Jo90
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Post by Jo90 on Apr 7, 2022 15:17:49 GMT
David Clifford's goal against Mayo has made me change my mind against the offensive mark.
Clifford caught the ball on the hop so didn't have the option of a mark, but say he had caught it on the full, the stats guy in the backroom staff would probably have done the analysis for the best return from that spot and would have instructed the players to call for a mark from there and go for a point with an 85% likelihood of a point.
The statistics would have shown the likelihood of getting a goal from there by playing on would only be 5%.
The offensive mark is removing a lot of the x-factor and player's intuition.
Or maybe someone with sense would just tell the players or David Clifford in particular to decide yourself whether to call for a mark or play on.
On the other hand, against Cork in 2020 a couple of times players played on and missed when there were easy marks available, and in the end those scores would have won the game for Kerry.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Apr 7, 2022 15:34:22 GMT
David Clifford's goal against Mayo has made me change my mind against the offensive mark. Clifford caught the ball on the hop so didn't have the option of a mark, but say he had caught it on the full, the stats guy in the backroom staff would probably have done the analysis for the best return from that spot and would have instructed the players to call for a mark from there and go for a point with an 85% likelihood of a point. The statistics would have shown the likelihood of getting a goal from there by playing on would only be 5%. The offensive mark is removing a lot of the x-factor and player's intuition. Or maybe someone with sense would just tell the players or David Clifford in particular to decide yourself whether to call for a mark or play on. On the other hand, against Cork in 2020 a couple of times players played on and missed when there were easy marks available, and in the end those scores would have won the game for Kerry. Clifford is more or less on record saying he doesn't go in for the stats of the matter. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2022 15:57:57 GMT
David Clifford's goal against Mayo has made me change my mind against the offensive mark. Clifford caught the ball on the hop so didn't have the option of a mark, but say he had caught it on the full, the stats guy in the backroom staff would probably have done the analysis for the best return from that spot and would have instructed the players to call for a mark from there and go for a point with an 85% likelihood of a point. The statistics would have shown the likelihood of getting a goal from there by playing on would only be 5%. The offensive mark is removing a lot of the x-factor and player's intuition. Or maybe someone with sense would just tell the players or David Clifford in particular to decide yourself whether to call for a mark or play on. On the other hand, against Cork in 2020 a couple of times players played on and missed when there were easy marks available, and in the end those scores would have won the game for Kerry. I am not sure I know anyone whoever thought that offensive mark was a good idea. I |
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Apr 7, 2022 16:28:21 GMT
He was 100% going for the ball but you don’t referee intent, you referee outcome. So, for example, if I go to tackle a player but I’m late and punch him in the face then I’ve punched him in the face. You can’t police by intent as otherwise you’re deciding on different players characters and making a decision based on that On the John Small example, you’d be applying different rules to different players based on your opinion of the player and their intent. Sure that’s a complete nonsense I am not sure about intent/outcome; Jack Barrys tackle on Flynn looked a black card for obstruction but he got a yellow probably for dangerous play - if the ref knew the outcome, broken ankle, then it’s a red card. If you go for a ball & punch someone in the head then it’s accidental not deliberate; if your punch knocks a player out , even though you are going for the ball, is that a red card? Is it more accurate to describe deliberate vs accidental - many accidental clashes can lead to bad injuries and all black cards are for deliberate actions - admittedly this leaves a lot of discretion to the ref but that’s the way it is. You’ve misunderstood outcome, the outcome wasn’t a broken ankle, the outcome was a body check. The broken ankle is a result of him hitting the ground |
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Apr 7, 2022 16:30:41 GMT
I am not sure about intent/outcome; Jack Barrys tackle on Flynn looked a black card for obstruction but he got a yellow probably for dangerous play - if the ref knew the outcome, broken ankle, then it’s a red card. If you go for a ball & punch someone in the head then it’s accidental not deliberate; if your punch knocks a player out , even though you are going for the ball, is that a red card? Is it more accurate to describe deliberate vs accidental - many accidental clashes can lead to bad injuries and all black cards are for deliberate actions - admittedly this leaves a lot of discretion to the ref but that’s the way it is. The outcome in question isn't the injury but what happened. E.g. a fist to the head in the case of ROD rather than e.g. a head injury. Exactly you can punch someone and not really hurt them but you’ve still punched them. If we start to work off the players resulting injury or perceived injury then you will get lads feigning injury to get others sent off |
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Post by boherbee on Apr 7, 2022 17:16:47 GMT
I am not sure about intent/outcome; Jack Barrys tackle on Flynn looked a black card for obstruction but he got a yellow probably for dangerous play - if the ref knew the outcome, broken ankle, then it’s a red card. If you go for a ball & punch someone in the head then it’s accidental not deliberate; if your punch knocks a player out , even though you are going for the ball, is that a red card? Is it more accurate to describe deliberate vs accidental - many accidental clashes can lead to bad injuries and all black cards are for deliberate actions - admittedly this leaves a lot of discretion to the ref but that’s the way it is. You’ve misunderstood outcome, the outcome wasn’t a broken ankle, the outcome was a body check. The broken ankle is a result of him hitting the ground If you don’t mind me saying so, that’s a bit of a stretch, why did he hit the ground ? Maybe the mistimed shoulder into the chest had something to do with it. |
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 7, 2022 17:35:22 GMT
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Apr 7, 2022 17:57:18 GMT
You’ve misunderstood outcome, the outcome wasn’t a broken ankle, the outcome was a body check. The broken ankle is a result of him hitting the ground If you don’t mind me saying so, that’s a bit of a stretch, why did he hit the ground ? Maybe the mistimed shoulder into the chest had something to do with it. Yeah but the shoulder to the chest was the infringement by Barry. As I stated earlier if you police the end result to the player then everyone who is even looked at awkwardly will go down holding their head, like as happens in soccer |
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 7, 2022 18:04:45 GMT
Kerrybhoy...this is like that film 12 ANGRY MEN in reverse. You have changed Annascauls mind ...only 11 to go.  |
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Apr 7, 2022 19:39:17 GMT
Kerrybhoy...this is like that film 12 ANGRY MEN in reverse. You have changed Annascauls mind ...only 11 to go. But I can’t say anything else! The rule is about outcome and it can never be about intent, otherwise we’d let our prejudices. Like in the previous examples, we’d send John small off every time but we’d not send off someone like James o donoghue because isn’t he a lovely fella who is always smiling. Unfortunately you can’t ref like that, like a fan! |
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 7, 2022 21:12:00 GMT
The Rugby authorities felt the need to change the rule on this. See bit on reckless and accidental. The onus is put on the player committing the tackle. Until the GAA do something similar we will have differing views on incidents www.world.rugby/news/213339 |
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horsebox77
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Post by horsebox77 on Apr 7, 2022 21:31:08 GMT
The gaa higher authorities are reactive as opposed to pro-active.
It will take a major incident for the pot bellied brigade to sit up and take notice.
Unfortunately, this is always been the case and until they pull the ostridge head out of the sand nothing of note will occur.
I do feel a TMO who watched major incidents like rugby should be utilised but not for every Mickey mouse decision. .
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mike70
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Post by mike70 on Apr 7, 2022 22:07:39 GMT
I was talking to two refs, they say GW should have been booked for a late tackle on o donoghue and a free out awarded.😂
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Post by kerrysouth on Apr 8, 2022 11:56:52 GMT
The canny south Kerry man jack o connor has once again proved he has the knack of winning national titles .As well as winning the league he has broadened his options if required down the road . Kerry will take some beating now ..The big danger would be a rejuvenated Dublin in a full house in Croke park in an all Ireland semi final .We can’t get too far ahead of ourselves like last year but we are still in a good place .really looking forward to the championship now ..
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Post by hatchetman on Apr 8, 2022 12:08:33 GMT
I was talking to two refs, they say GW should have been booked for a late tackle on o donoghue and a free out awarded.😂 If you want to watch this in slow motion, then click the “gear” shaped settings icon in the lower right-hand corner of the video player window and click the “Speed” setting to display the drop-down box where you can choose a speed of say .25. Even at that speed it's hard to see any malicious intent in the O'Donoghue tackle (but maybe the law should be changed to focus on result rather than intent) |
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Post by royalkerryfan on Apr 8, 2022 14:50:20 GMT
The canny south Kerry man jack o connor has once again proved he has the knack of winning national titles .As well as winning the league he has broadened his options if required down the road . Kerry will take some beating now ..The big danger would be a rejuvenated Dublin in a full house in Croke park in an all Ireland semi final .We can’t get too far ahead of ourselves like last year but we are still in a good place .really looking forward to the championship now .. Ohhhh you won't be popular around here with such blatant optimism 🤣🤣🤣 |
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Post by augustafield on Apr 8, 2022 21:57:58 GMT
Where was the ball when O Donoghue struck
Gavin White ? If it was on its way into the net
( and check the tape for that information ) then
O Donoghue could not possibly make an attempt
to play the ball . It was and he did’nt .
End of discussion .
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Apr 8, 2022 22:04:12 GMT
I watched game back, Mayo were poor and toothless up front, devoid of any creativity, their main threats came from midfield. Some of their unforced passing errors in second half particularly were awful. They were missing key players and are better than that.
We were good all over the field but we got space to play, some of it we made, space we are unlikely to get v Dublin or Tyrone. Look, they couldn’t have done much more but definitely tougher days lie ahead, I think the quarter final could be defining as it will likely be a much tougher game than what lies awaiting in Munster. It will be ideal preparation for the semi final, something we badly missed last year.
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Post by brucewayne on Apr 8, 2022 22:41:15 GMT
I watched game back, Mayo were poor and toothless up front, devoid of any creativity, their main threats came from midfield. Some of their unforced passing errors in second half particularly were awful. They were missing key players and are better than that. We were good all over the field but we got space to play, some of it we made, space we are unlikely to get v Dublin or Tyrone. Look, they couldn’t have done much more but definitely tougher days lie ahead, I think the quarter final could be defining as it will likely be a much tougher game than what lies awaiting in Munster. It will be ideal preparation for the semi final, something we badly missed last year. It was disappointing that Mayo had their focus elsewhere. You wouldn't blame them though. At 58 minutes in the final, 29 scoring chances had been created and 18 converted. 4 more were converted between there and the end of the game. Not a bad day's work. Can this be repeated against opposition who aren't just fulfilling a fixture? |
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 9, 2022 7:30:05 GMT
Where was the ball when O Donoghue struck Gavin White ? If it was on its way into the net ( and check the tape for that information ) then O Donoghue could not possibly make an attempt to play the ball . It was and he did’nt . End of discussion . Ok Moderator. |
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 9, 2022 7:33:04 GMT
I watched game back, Mayo were poor and toothless up front, devoid of any creativity, their main threats came from midfield. Some of their unforced passing errors in second half particularly were awful. They were missing key players and are better than that. We were good all over the field but we got space to play, some of it we made, space we are unlikely to get v Dublin or Tyrone. Look, they couldn’t have done much more but definitely tougher days lie ahead, I think the quarter final could be defining as it will likely be a much tougher game than what lies awaiting in Munster. It will be ideal preparation for the semi final, something we badly missed last year. James Carr was the only one to show a bit of leadership. Two super points by him. Cant wait for Mayo v Galway though. I think both were going through the motions last Sunday, Especially Galway. I think Galway will win that game somehow. |
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Post by thepromisedland on Apr 9, 2022 8:08:50 GMT
Very downbeat up in Mayo way last week, they didn't even really want to discuss it, some said that they were embarrassed, Horan is not the man for the job anymore, as they say, you should never go back again.
Why bother with the trip? the Mayo blog testifies to this general consensus up there, the students, think they'll never win anything, I don't know. I felt sorry for them. I know they were missing a few, but I don't buy this narrative that they were not bothered in a final, finals are there to be won, remember Mayo have only won 2 League Finals since 2001 of men's senior national silverware, so it's not as if they can have a A la carte, mentslity, like a child to pick and choose, going into a sweetshop without money. It doesn't cut the mustard.
Whatever about the really bad All-Ireland final loses in 2004 and 2006 to us, I think, out of the three with last Sunday's, this was by far and away their worst showing, it could and should have been a 23 point defeat. Galway and especially Roscommon supporters around me, were delighted in them failing. I felt for Mayo. One can be lonely in a crowd.
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