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Post by Mickmack on Jun 7, 2020 15:53:19 GMT
Very important article for all involved with Kerry GAA to read - Kerryguy Couldn't agree more. Forget prioritizing return to play. Time for Kerry GAA to come out strong on this. The silence is deafening at the moment. COVID will be gone in time...Racism has lingered for too long! That night that KOR played Brendans two years ago i was seated behind Stefan Okumbers family and the joy and pride in them was obvious. It pains me to read that. The GAA is a cross section of society and there will be ignorant and racist people everywhere. What to do? The responsibility and moral authority has to come from the top down and that includes those running and managing teams. Any while i am at it, lets remove terms like culchie and nordies and free staters from the GAA lexicon while we are at it. The referee didnt hear the insult directed at Stefan so he felt he couldnt act. Some sort of a system for citing of a team must be brought in so.
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ky20
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Post by ky20 on Jun 7, 2020 17:51:20 GMT
Very important article for all involved with Kerry GAA to read - Kerryguy Couldn't agree more. Forget prioritizing return to play. Time for Kerry GAA to come out strong on this. The silence is deafening at the moment. COVID will be gone in time...Racism has lingered for too long! And how would not prioritising return to play have any effect on anything. Racial abuse should never be tolerated but I fail to see how your proposal would help. Sorry I didn't write that too clearly. Just meant that recent article should be addressed by Kerry Gaa. Going forward educating coaches and parents re diversity in the GAA would help. This could already be happening. I'm not involved with younger teams. Unfortunately you'll always have a few bad apples!
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Post by southward on Jun 7, 2020 20:58:18 GMT
Very important article for all involved with Kerry GAA to read - Kerryguy Couldn't agree more. Forget prioritizing return to play. Time for Kerry GAA to come out strong on this. The silence is deafening at the moment. COVID will be gone in time...Racism has lingered for too long! That night that KOR played Brendans two years ago i was seated behind Stefan Okumbers family and the joy and pride in them was obvious. It pains me to read that. The GAA is a cross section of society and there will be ignorant and racist people everywhere. What to do? The responsibility and moral authority has to come from the top down and that includes those running and managing teams. Any while i am at it, lets remove terms like culchie and nordies and free staters from the GAA lexicon while we are at it. The referee didnt hear the insult directed at Stefan so he felt he couldnt act. Some sort of a system for citing of a team must be brought in so. Not forgetting langers, jackeens and narries.
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Post by goonised on Jun 7, 2020 21:01:56 GMT
A friend of mine involved with a club in Tralee told me that his club is constantly called a certain name of ethnic minority in every game they play on pitch and off pitch and nothing ever done. In fact he said they just accept as it going on for generations . So I dont think it ever will he stamped out. The only thing that will change is the words/slang used to abuse people.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Jun 8, 2020 3:18:33 GMT
I'll give Mandad a lead, Clifford's point in Clones vs Monaghan 2018, topped off with his goal presented by Donaghy and who saved another day by fetching the Hennelly free from behind the clouds in Limerick as it was about to sail over. Galvin turning a Munster Final around, Éamonn Fitz having AO'M man-mark Murphy in 2014 AI final, Mce Fitzy's points v Mayo in Croker and the Dubs in Thurles, Brian Sheehan's placed kick point into the MacGillycuddy's from the Tralee side in ASP on a very very foggy day, without Radar or SatNav!, vs Donegal? Bryan Sheehan 2 Monster Frees 65+ - The commentary is as good, 'if he puts this over he is capable of anything' from Weeshie, and the rest, as good as the football, well almost. Ah be jazus - bate that! And bate it Mandad may, hopefully?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 20:10:15 GMT
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keane
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Post by keane on Jun 8, 2020 23:06:09 GMT
Franz seemed to have great potential when I saw him underage. Looked a cut above but maybe lacking a bit of killer instinct to take a tight game by the scruff of the neck. Playing senior at a young age may stand to him in that regard.
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Post by sullyschoice on Jun 11, 2020 17:42:42 GMT
I see some spacer has called for John Mitchells to be renamed because he supported slavery hundreds of years ago.
Next Gavin White will be dropped from the senior panel and Paddy Bawn Brosnans pub will be burned to the ground.
Obviously any form of racial abuse on the pitch or off it should not happen but this absolute garbage that people are coming out with is ridiculous.
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Post by veteran on Jun 11, 2020 18:49:43 GMT
I see some spacer has called for John Mitchells to be renamed because he supported slavery hundreds of years ago. Next Gavin White will be dropped from the senior panel and Paddy Bawn Brosnans pub will be burned to the ground. Obviously any form of racial abuse on the pitch or off it should not happen but this absolute garbage that people are coming out with is ridiculous. Totally agree. People in this country and elsewhere would do well to ruminate on the following : “ Be careful when you encourage the mob because very likely the mob will come for you too”
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Post by hurlingman on Jun 11, 2020 21:04:37 GMT
I see some spacer has called for John Mitchells to be renamed because he supported slavery hundreds of years ago. Next Gavin White will be dropped from the senior panel and Paddy Bawn Brosnans pub will be burned to the ground. Obviously any form of racial abuse on the pitch or off it should not happen but this absolute garbage that people are coming out with is ridiculous. More PC BS. Are the 10 county championships they've won going to be taken out of the history books? Or the 5 in a row they won?
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Post by rollingstone on Jun 12, 2020 7:27:04 GMT
The world has literally gone mad. Next thing they'll be looking for the Pyramids to be knocked down as they were built by slaves. People are spending more time arguing about who has it worst off than discussing what's really going on before them. Classic divide and conquer stuff.
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Fado
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Post by Fado on Jun 12, 2020 8:34:23 GMT
And no more dodgy Cork flags😂
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Post by givehimaball on Jun 12, 2020 12:52:41 GMT
I see some spacer has called for John Mitchells to be renamed because he supported slavery hundreds of years ago. Next Gavin White will be dropped from the senior panel and Paddy Bawn Brosnans pub will be burned to the ground. Obviously any form of racial abuse on the pitch or off it should not happen but this absolute garbage that people are coming out with is ridiculous. More PC BS. Are the 10 county championships they've won going to be taken out of the history books? Or the 5 in a row they won? Totally agree. People in this country and elsewhere would do well to ruminate on the following : “ Be careful when you encourage the mob because very likely the mob will come for you too” The world has literally gone mad. Next thing they'll be looking for the Pyramids to be knocked down as they were built by slaves. People are spending more time arguing about who has it worst off than discussing what's really going on before them. Classic divide and conquer stuff. Well done folks. Less than a week since both Stefan Okunbor and Franz Sauerland have spoken out about the instances of racism they have experienced on the playing field in Kerry, it's vital that someone bravely steps forward to shoot down without hesitation the idea of changing the name of a club named after an actual slave owner and a racist. Have a read of Adam Moynihan's recent articles in the Killarney Advertiser related to racism in Kerry. www.killarneyadvertiser.ie/it-happens-all-the-time-killarneys-black-athletes-tell-of-shocking-racial-abuse/www.killarneyadvertiser.ie/few-and-far-between-why-are-so-few-pocs-and-eastern-europeans-joining-the-gaa/I'm not suggesting any poster is racist, but I would say that when you find yourself making the same points and using the same tactics [constructing strawman arguments, using false equivalencies, blaming political correctness gone mad] that actual racists would use, you should possibly consider the danger of being mistaken for one.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 12, 2020 13:20:58 GMT
I see some spacer has called for John Mitchells to be renamed because he supported slavery hundreds of years ago. Next Gavin White will be dropped from the senior panel and Paddy Bawn Brosnans pub will be burned to the ground. Obviously any form of racial abuse on the pitch or off it should not happen but this absolute garbage that people are coming out with is ridiculous. Is this calling for a name change or stating a fact that might lead to a conversation? " One of the biggest GAA clubs in Kerry is named in honour of John Mitchel, the rabidly pro-slavery and racist Irish nationalist who said black people were "innately inferior" and wanted Americans to be "proud and fond of [slavery] as a national institution"." I am thoroughly agnostic on this particular issue (not racism but the name of John Mitchels GAA) so don't shoot the messenger.
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Post by veteran on Jun 12, 2020 15:13:03 GMT
"You should consider the possibility of being mistaken for one(racist)" Is this not one of the great blights of modern society, the fear of being branded a racist , a misogynist, a homophobe, transphobe, Islamophobe, climate denier etc etc. A lot of good people with sincerely held views are being silenced for fear of being labelled with a pejorative term by the mob. This "cancelling" culture is rampant across the globe with people being deplatformed because their opinions do not coincide with the prevailing orthodoxy of the day.
The situation currently in the U.S. distresses me. We have looters/rioters rampaging through cities , toppling statues etc all in the name of "Black lives matter". Doubtless every live matters but I wonder if this is the real story or rather a Trojan Horse. CNN, The New York Times and huge number of Democratic politicians continue to describe these riots as protests!. Could it be that they are afraid to characterise them correctly because they fear the mob. The public health doctors in the U.S. have been exhorting the citizens to stay at home during the pandemic otherwise they would be responsible for the death of grandma. Yet, last week they condoned the protesters/rioters congregating on the streets because this was a bigger issue than the pandemic! A pandemic which has already killed over 100,000 of their citizens. Sincerely held views by these establishment institutions or virtue signalling to appease the mob?
I do not doubt that injustices are ubiquitous but if we cherish democracy then law and order must prevail and diverse views must he heard and not silenced. Silenced out of fear of being labelled a racist etc. I have no fear of being called a racist etc. I will fearlessly articulate my views while at the same time encouraging my assailant to go back to school in order to expand their vocabulary beyond the half dozen or so labels with which they try to counter opposing views and ,while they are at school ,they should also try to learn the definition of words which have been debased in recent times by being mostly misapplied.
As for John Mitchell, the appropriateness of various statues, the appropriateness of trading with some nations etc, where does one stop? A long , winding road the end of which may never be reached. On the other hnad, if it be the will of the people , let the discussions begin but please do not try to appease the mob.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 12, 2020 15:29:37 GMT
It seems very difficult to get objective eyes on matters beyond the sea but I think it's fair to say in the USA that not all protesters are rioting looters, and indeed neither are all "protesters" peaceful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 18:35:11 GMT
Why not change the name John Mitchell’s? It is a fair debate to have and far from a ridiculous one.
Personally I am ambivalent to this and there is a question of how far do you go down this road which is fair enough but people need to be more open minded in general.
It is interesting that renaming John Mitchell’s has stirred people more than the comments of Sauerland and Okunbor
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keane
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Post by keane on Jun 12, 2020 20:01:14 GMT
It's pretty easy to declare your full support for people when there's no cost. I don't see it as worthy of incredulity and rage to question whether or not this man's name being attached to prominent clubs is representative of the values of community and inclusiveness the GAA aspires to.
Stefan's divisional team includes a club named after a man who made a fortune buying and selling black people. That is a simple fact. It's a fact I think is worthy of consideration - is there any sense in which it's a good thing?
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 12, 2020 21:42:38 GMT
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Post by sullyschoice on Jun 12, 2020 22:57:16 GMT
Well what is your view on naming GAA clubs after Hunger strikers in the north. Or heroes of the civil war or war of Independence.
Seems to be a fair few of the mob who want to imply that some are racist but have no problem flying their Palestinian flag and perpetuate the hatred of the Jewish nation.
A bit of selective racism on their part.
There has been a huge kneejerk reaction lately to an event in America. Social media is a scourge and only whips up hysteria.
Just look at the reaction to Eamon Ryan....agenda driven faux outrage.
If you are not part of the mob you run the risk of being labelled a racist. We live in very dangerous times
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Post by sullyschoice on Jun 12, 2020 23:06:55 GMT
Why not change the name John Mitchell’s? It is a fair debate to have and far from a ridiculous one. Personally I am ambivalent to this and there is a question of how far do you go down this road which is fair enough but people need to be more open minded in general. It is interesting that renaming John Mitchell’s has stirred people more than the comments of Sauerland and Okunbor There is more of the twisting of matters to suit the mob agenda. The experiences of those lads is very disappointing on a human level. Are we going to re-name Austin Stacks and loads of other clubs because they were racist towards Britain. The mob have decided that Fawlty Towers Germans episode should be withdrawn. Where will this all end.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 23:28:22 GMT
Why not change the name John Mitchell’s? It is a fair debate to have and far from a ridiculous one. Personally I am ambivalent to this and there is a question of how far do you go down this road which is fair enough but people need to be more open minded in general. It is interesting that renaming John Mitchell’s has stirred people more than the comments of Sauerland and Okunbor There is more of the twisting of matters to suit the mob agenda. The experiences of those lads is very disappointing on a human level. Are we going to re-name Austin Stacks and loads of other clubs because they were racist towards Britain. The mob have decided that Fawlty Towers Germans episode should be withdrawn. Where will this all end. Interesting that you lump John Mitchell and Austin Stack together. Others can decide based on the below how similar they really are but I see a marked difference between them. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mitchelen.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Stack
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Post by sullyschoice on Jun 13, 2020 5:21:49 GMT
There you go again twisting peoples words. I am not equating Austin Stack with John Mitchell as you well know.
I am saying where do you draw the line. Some dislike Mitchell's past, some may dislike Stacks past.
Are someone's misdeeds less "offensive' than others.
Who gets to decide. Is it the bandwagon jumping mob from Twitter or The Journal or Joe Duffy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 6:11:32 GMT
Please show me all those times I twisted your words.
Yes, some peoples misdeeds are less offensive than others and the GAA and its members can decide where to draw the line. The line has been and is always drawn somewhere. People can also reassess when they learn more. It is why you won’t find tributes to Jimmy Saville anymore.99% of people until recent days had no knowledge of this element of Mitchell’s life.
Back to my original point, it is a fair debate based on the unashamedly racist views that Mitchell has to ask the question.and not a ridiculous one as some think.
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Post by goonised on Jun 13, 2020 7:03:28 GMT
Please show me all those times I twisted your words. Yes, some peoples misdeeds are less offensive than others and the GAA and its members can decide where to draw the line. The line has been and is always drawn somewhere. People can also reassess when they learn more. It is why you won’t find tributes to Jimmy Saville anymore.99% of people until recent days had no knowledge of this element of Mitchell’s life. Back to my original point, it is a fair debate based on the unashamedly racist views that Mitchell has to ask the question.and not a ridiculous one as some think. No debate required. Members informed me name wont be changing under any circumstances, even tho I'm from a neighbouring club I totally agree with them. One could only describe the suggestion to change the names of clubs around the country as hilarious.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 7:21:17 GMT
not surprised to hear that about the mitchels. They are very proud of their history
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Post by sullyschoice on Jun 13, 2020 8:55:31 GMT
not surprised to hear that about the mitchels. They are very proud of their history And I am sure you say that without an ounce of sarcasm or arrogance. No one rightly celebrates Savill but plenty still love Michael Jackson and Mike Tyson. Who decided where the line was there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 9:04:19 GMT
not surprised to hear that about the mitchels. They are very proud of their history And I am sure you say that without an ounce of sarcasm or arrogance. No one rightly celebrates Savill but plenty still love Michael Jackson and Mike Tyson. Who decided where the line was there. I will take arrogant as a compliment from you . People can make their own choices about who they want to celebrate/honour but if they choose the likes of Mitchel/Jackson etc, it is logical that others will take issue with this. You seem to think it is ridiculous to even discuss the honouring of Mitchel and the people who suggest it are ‘spacers’. I think you need to be more open minded.
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Post by veteran on Jun 13, 2020 9:42:48 GMT
Does anybody really believe that the John Mitchell name inspired those louts who verbally abused Franz and Stefan? Would they or the majority of people have any idea of his connection with slavery. Indeed, would they and a sizable slice of GAA followers be familiar John Mitchell's political history or care? I suspect not but I could be wrong of course.
As regards Mr. Mitchell, I presume he is being honoured by the club for his political activities- Young Irelanders etc- rather than his connection with slavery. It is also well to remember that one should be slow to judge figures of the past, historical or otherwise, by the standards of today. In one hundred years or so, I have no doubt that a lot of people will be scratching their heads at what we are currently doing. Matters evolve, new information becomes available and the hope is that we become more civilised. That is the hope in any case.
As I have said, revising history is fraught with problems, intractable in a lot of cases. Our recent , turbulent history in the North is a good example of divided attitudes and emotions. A lot of people regard the I.R.A. as freedom fighters and martyrs while another coterie of people regard them as murderous thugs. Further back we can recount our bloody, bitter civil war which even divided families. Should we reassess monuments and statues dedicated to those people/activities, or should we let sleeping dogs lie? You must understand, one man's hero is another man's villain.
As I write this, I am reminded of a visit I paid to the National Art Gallery in Dublin some time ago. I am sure a lot of you have been there and if you have I am sure you have marvelled at the "The Taking of Christ" by Caravaggio. I find it spell binding. The downside, to some people, is that Caravaggio was a violent hoodlum, once being involved in a brawl which resulted in a conviction of murder for this genius. Perhaps, some people, on that basis,feel the painting should be removed?
It would appear that the Cork County Board, once more, is about to ban the Confederate flag at their grounds. Again, one is compelled to ask if the people who brandish this flag are AWARE of its significance? I suspect not, rather simply they carry it because there is plenty of red in it. But why stop at the confederate flag? They make frequent use of the Chinese flag also. We all know about Chinese violations of human rights , one manifestation is their current incarceration of over one million Muslims. Ban the Chinese flag then? Tricky isn't it.
As I have pointed out, revisiting statues and the nomenclature of streets, football clubs etc is not straightforward. Very likely it would heighten divisions. Above all, nothing should be said that would encourage the mob, our version of the Taliban, to decide what should be retained or not.
Returning to the question of the appropriateness or not of various statues, apparently in Budapest they have what is known as a Memorial Park. It contains statues and other memorabilia from Hungary's Communist period. I will finish with a quote from the Park's architect: " This park is about dictatorship. At the same time, because it can be talked about, described, built, this park is about democracy. After all, only democracy is able to give the opportunity to let us think freely about dictatorship". Noble, civilised words with which to conclude.
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Post by goonised on Jun 13, 2020 9:51:28 GMT
not surprised to hear that about the mitchels. They are very proud of their history Looking at the history of clubs in Kerry, I think Mitchell's should be extremely proud of their history and what they achieved and what they have given to the county. I think "spacers" is an apt description.
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