horsebox77
Fanatical Member
Our trees & mountains are silent ghosts, they hold wisdom and knowledge mankind has long forgotten.
Posts: 2,339
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Post by horsebox77 on Oct 28, 2024 11:06:01 GMT
Great appointment by Clare County Board. Keane is N excellent coach and man manager... I just can’t let that sit here. The last part is absolutely not true, the first part is also highly questionable. Saying he is an excellent man manager is contrary to the opinion espoused by multiple players that worked under him with Kerry Ah look opinions vary, he spent three very successful years coaching the most challenging of all groups, this age bracket factoring in growth spurts, leaving cert, hormonal teenagers etc - personally I always factor in coaches professional qualities when adapting to senior coaching… invariably in their personal lives they are dealing with groups, you do not become a success in business unless you have have leadership qualities, qualities that flick equally between work and sport. Also, no coach is going to have 100% agreement, anyone that has every trained a team of a panel of 25, there is a guarantee three of the 25 would burn you. Coaching isn’t a popularity contest, you’re at the helm to bring success not to make friends and hard calls will be made, If someone thinks every panel player will be delighted to meet you ten years later, you’re deluded. Some has mentioned or questioned would Tommy Griffin follow him to Clare, that would be interesting, could yesterdays outcome result in a club reshuffl. |
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Post by shannonsider on Oct 28, 2024 11:23:22 GMT
I just can’t let that sit here. The last part is absolutely not true, the first part is also highly questionable. Saying he is an excellent man manager is contrary to the opinion espoused by multiple players that worked under him with Kerry Ah look opinions vary, he spent three very successful years coaching the most challenging of all groups, this age bracket factoring in growth spurts, leaving cert, hormonal teenagers etc - personally I always factor in coaches professional qualities when adapting to senior coaching… invariably in their personal lives they are dealing with groups, you do not become a success in business unless you have have leadership qualities, qualities that flick equally between work and sport. Also, no coach is going to have 100% agreement, anyone that has every trained a team of a panel of 25, there is a guarantee three of the 25 would burn you. Coaching isn’t a popularity contest, you’re at the helm to bring success not to make friends and hard calls will be made, If someone thinks every panel player will be delighted to meet you ten years later, you’re deluded. Some has mentioned or questioned would Tommy Griffin follow him to Clare, that would be interesting, could yesterdays outcome result in a club reshuffl. I think that’s all well and good Horsebox, opinions abound etc..but it’s well known that Keane’s communication was not great in several instances. I still think that a former all Ireland winning captain being dropped off the squad without so much as phone call was an absolute disgrace. Several other players got the same treatment. Anyway, it’s not a bad move for Clare, but they need all possible players available to get out of Div 3 or have any impact in championship. |
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Oct 28, 2024 12:24:35 GMT
I just can’t let that sit here. The last part is absolutely not true, the first part is also highly questionable. Saying he is an excellent man manager is contrary to the opinion espoused by multiple players that worked under him with Kerry Ah look opinions vary, he spent three very successful years coaching the most challenging of all groups, this age bracket factoring in growth spurts, leaving cert, hormonal teenagers etc - personally I always factor in coaches professional qualities when adapting to senior coaching… invariably in their personal lives they are dealing with groups, you do not become a success in business unless you have have leadership qualities, qualities that flick equally between work and sport. Also, no coach is going to have 100% agreement, anyone that has every trained a team of a panel of 25, there is a guarantee three of the 25 would burn you. Coaching isn’t a popularity contest, you’re at the helm to bring success not to make friends and hard calls will be made, If someone thinks every panel player will be delighted to meet you ten years later, you’re deluded. Some has mentioned or questioned would Tommy Griffin follow him to Clare, that would be interesting, could yesterdays outcome result in a club reshuffl. I agree coaching is tough and you have to make hard, sometimes upsetting, calls but the players weren’t very fond of him and there’s no other way of putting it! That extends to guaranteed starters on his team |
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 28, 2024 18:59:10 GMT
Ah look opinions vary, he spent three very successful years coaching the most challenging of all groups, this age bracket factoring in growth spurts, leaving cert, hormonal teenagers etc - personally I always factor in coaches professional qualities when adapting to senior coaching… invariably in their personal lives they are dealing with groups, you do not become a success in business unless you have have leadership qualities, qualities that flick equally between work and sport. Also, no coach is going to have 100% agreement, anyone that has every trained a team of a panel of 25, there is a guarantee three of the 25 would burn you. Coaching isn’t a popularity contest, you’re at the helm to bring success not to make friends and hard calls will be made, If someone thinks every panel player will be delighted to meet you ten years later, you’re deluded. Some has mentioned or questioned would Tommy Griffin follow him to Clare, that would be interesting, could yesterdays outcome result in a club reshuffl. I think that’s all well and good Horsebox, opinions abound etc..but it’s well known that Keane’s communication was not great in several instances. I still think that a former all Ireland winning captain being dropped off the squad without so much as phone call was an absolute disgrace. Several other players got the same treatment. Anyway, it’s not a bad move for Clare, but they need all possible players available to get out of Div 3 or have any impact in championship. Announcing a panel without informing players who were long standing members smacked of anything but good man management; there were many instances thereafter of this type of behaviour. His dismissal of his coach by freezing him out of team selection meetings was arrogance personified. |
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Post by thehermit on Oct 28, 2024 19:34:15 GMT
Keane was unlucky but also contributed significantly to his own misfortune. 2019 was a great season but in the end we still lost a final that was there for the taking. 2020 and 2021 ended in disaster, two of the worst performances I've seen from any Kerry team. He had his chances and ultimately wasn't up to the task of being a successful senior Kerry manager.
But in theory this could be quiet a coup for Clare and a chance for him to rebuild a damaged reputation.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Oct 28, 2024 20:06:53 GMT
I think that’s all well and good Horsebox, opinions abound etc..but it’s well known that Keane’s communication was not great in several instances. I still think that a former all Ireland winning captain being dropped off the squad without so much as phone call was an absolute disgrace. Several other players got the same treatment. Anyway, it’s not a bad move for Clare, but they need all possible players available to get out of Div 3 or have any impact in championship. Announcing a panel without informing players who were long standing members smacked of anything but good man management; there were many instances thereafter of this type of behaviour. His dismissal of his coach by freezing him out of team selection meetings was arrogance personified. His biggest failing was being naive to the fact that players on the panel are friends, go golfing together, go for lunch together, etc and when you treat some of them shabbily then you end up annoying them but also putting out their close mates, if they perceive the treatment to be unfair |
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Oct 28, 2024 20:08:20 GMT
Keane was unlucky but also contributed significantly to his own misfortune. 2019 was a great season but in the end we still lost a final that was there for the taking. 2020 and 2021 ended in disaster, two of the worst performances I've seen from any Kerry team. He had his chances and ultimately wasn't up to the task of being a successful senior Kerry manager. But in theory this could be quiet a coup for Clare and a chance for him to rebuild a damaged reputation. How he stayed in the job after 2020 will forever be beyond me. I would expect any Kerry coach to fall on their sword after that, he should have walked himself |
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Post by thehermit on Oct 29, 2024 18:21:50 GMT
'Galway club says GAA funding treats counties outside Dublin like 'second-class citizens'': www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41505872.htmlFair play to the work gone on here by Salthill to call this out for what it is, just utterly fed up with how Dublin GAA continues to be pilled with money at the expense of the rest of the country. |
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 29, 2024 20:14:38 GMT
'Galway club says GAA funding treats counties outside Dublin like 'second-class citizens'': www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41505872.htmlFair play to the work gone on here by Salthill to call this out for what it is, just utterly fed up with how Dublin GAA continues to be pilled with money at the expense of the rest of the country. Funny how Dublin were the only ones who were "over payed" |
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Post by jackiel on Oct 29, 2024 21:05:04 GMT
You'll be surprised how few will support them , afraid to rock the boat.
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Post by glengael on Oct 30, 2024 9:36:08 GMT
I wish Peter Keane the best, he is the latest Kerry manager to cross the Shannon following Micko, John Kennedy and Paidi, as well as the most recent incumbent- maybe there are more I've forgotten.
Jack O'Connor's book laid bare the hazards of managing Kerry senior players and their entourages. Fast forward almost 20 years to the digital jungle, I wonder how anyone could be in doubt about how much more difficult it has become. Water under the bridge in any case - luck or no luck, 2019/20/21 are ancient history.
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 30, 2024 10:21:40 GMT
I wish Peter Keane the best, he is the latest Kerry manager to cross the Shannon following Micko, John Kennedy and Paidi, as well as the most recent incumbent- maybe there are more I've forgotten. Jack O'Connor's book laid bare the hazards of managing Kerry senior players and their entourages. Fast forward almost 20 years to the digital jungle, I wonder how anyone could be in doubt about how much more difficult it has become. Water under the bridge in any case - luck or no luck, 2019/20/21 are ancient history. John O’Keeffe spent 4 years as Clare manager in the 90s, Donie Buckley was joint manager for a year with Michael Brennan from Galway. |
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Oct 30, 2024 15:22:48 GMT
I wish Peter Keane the best, he is the latest Kerry manager to cross the Shannon following Micko, John Kennedy and Paidi, as well as the most recent incumbent- maybe there are more I've forgotten. Jack O'Connor's book laid bare the hazards of managing Kerry senior players and their entourages. Fast forward almost 20 years to the digital jungle, I wonder how anyone could be in doubt about how much more difficult it has become. Water under the bridge in any case - luck or no luck, 2019/20/21 are ancient history. I don’t think it was anything to do with entourages and more to do with the mismanagement of communication/relationships with players. He was a very good underage coach but underage players need different tutelage to senior players and the disciplinarian, school principal approach may not always work on grown men. Peter was on the back foot after his treatment of players from his first squad announcement and he continued in this vein. His aforementioned sidelining of his coach mid year also reflected poorly and as a manager you need to be aware that you are managing relationships & personalities as much as managing anything else. |
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 30, 2024 15:50:54 GMT
I wish Peter Keane the best, he is the latest Kerry manager to cross the Shannon following Micko, John Kennedy and Paidi, as well as the most recent incumbent- maybe there are more I've forgotten. Jack O'Connor's book laid bare the hazards of managing Kerry senior players and their entourages. Fast forward almost 20 years to the digital jungle, I wonder how anyone could be in doubt about how much more difficult it has become. Water under the bridge in any case - luck or no luck, 2019/20/21 are ancient history. John O’Keeffe spent 4 years as Clare manager in the 90s, Donie Buckley was joint manager for a year with Michael Brennan from Galway. I think Donie Buckley also managed them at some point. John Kennedy was managing them when they won the Tommy Murphy Cup I think. |
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 30, 2024 15:53:34 GMT
I wish Peter Keane the best, he is the latest Kerry manager to cross the Shannon following Micko, John Kennedy and Paidi, as well as the most recent incumbent- maybe there are more I've forgotten. Jack O'Connor's book laid bare the hazards of managing Kerry senior players and their entourages. Fast forward almost 20 years to the digital jungle, I wonder how anyone could be in doubt about how much more difficult it has become. Water under the bridge in any case - luck or no luck, 2019/20/21 are ancient history. I don’t think it was anything to do with entourages and more to do with the mismanagement of communication/relationships with players. He was a very good underage coach but underage players need different tutelage to senior players and the disciplinarian, school principal approach may not always work on grown men. Peter was on the back foot after his treatment of players from his first squad announcement and he continued in this vein. His aforementioned sidelining of his coach mid year also reflected poorly and as a manager you need to be aware that you are managing relationships & personalities as much as managing anything else. There's too much made of his "treatment" of players when he came in. While they had served Kerry well it was time for change and I don't think any of them would have been the different between winning and losing. The Donie Buckley thing should never have happened. He was basically forced into having him as part of the management team by the CB. |
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Oct 30, 2024 15:57:24 GMT
I don’t think it was anything to do with entourages and more to do with the mismanagement of communication/relationships with players. He was a very good underage coach but underage players need different tutelage to senior players and the disciplinarian, school principal approach may not always work on grown men. Peter was on the back foot after his treatment of players from his first squad announcement and he continued in this vein. His aforementioned sidelining of his coach mid year also reflected poorly and as a manager you need to be aware that you are managing relationships & personalities as much as managing anything else. There's too much made of his "treatment" of players when he came in. While they had served Kerry well it was time for change and I don't think any of them would have been the different between winning and losing. The Donie Buckley thing should never have happened. He was basically forced into having him as part of the management team by the CB. The players seem to disagree that it wasn’t an issue and we would be naive to think that it is |
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Post by ciarraimick on Oct 30, 2024 21:58:39 GMT
I don’t think it was anything to do with entourages and more to do with the mismanagement of communication/relationships with players. He was a very good underage coach but underage players need different tutelage to senior players and the disciplinarian, school principal approach may not always work on grown men. Peter was on the back foot after his treatment of players from his first squad announcement and he continued in this vein. His aforementioned sidelining of his coach mid year also reflected poorly and as a manager you need to be aware that you are managing relationships & personalities as much as managing anything else. There's too much made of his "treatment" of players when he came in. While they had served Kerry well it was time for change and I don't think any of them would have been the different between winning and losing. The Donie Buckley thing should never have happened. He was basically forced into having him as part of the management team by the CB. Yes I was led to believe Donie Buckley was forced upon PK so it was always going to be awkward.He could have dealt with Fionn Fitz better and Imo Fionn was left go too early.On the plus side of PK s ledger he brought back both Tommy Walsh and Jack Sherwood and he was the man to give Paudie Clifford his start too. |
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Post by blacksheep21 on Oct 30, 2024 22:08:24 GMT
How Keane treated certain players and who he picked is not the issue for me. The performances and losses to Cork and Tyrone were shocking and the way the team was setup tactically was nowhere near the level required.
Also winning minor all Irelands when you have David Clifford is no great achievement.
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 31, 2024 10:29:49 GMT
How Keane treated certain players and who he picked is not the issue for me. The performances and losses to Cork and Tyrone were shocking and the way the team was setup tactically was nowhere near the level required. Also winning minor all Irelands when you have David Clifford is no great achievement. So by your logic anything a team David Clifford is on who wins anything is "no great achievement" |
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 31, 2024 10:32:30 GMT
There's too much made of his "treatment" of players when he came in. While they had served Kerry well it was time for change and I don't think any of them would have been the different between winning and losing. The Donie Buckley thing should never have happened. He was basically forced into having him as part of the management team by the CB. Yes I was led to believe Donie Buckley was forced upon PK so it was always going to be awkward.He could have dealt with Fionn Fitz better and Imo Fionn was left go too early.On the plus side of PK s ledger he brought back both Tommy Walsh and Jack Sherwood and he was the man to give Paudie Clifford his start too. In reality would Kerry have won in 2019 haf Fionn Fitzgerald been there? Same with Barry John Keane? They had given what they were going to give at that point. I recall Fitzgerald giving an interview where he basically said he didn't want to play with Kerry anyway. |
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Post by blacksheep21 on Oct 31, 2024 12:45:35 GMT
How Keane treated certain players and who he picked is not the issue for me. The performances and losses to Cork and Tyrone were shocking and the way the team was setup tactically was nowhere near the level required. Also winning minor all Irelands when you have David Clifford is no great achievement. So by your logic anything a team David Clifford is on who wins anything is "no great achievement" Obviously you don’t understand the difference between minors and seniors |
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 31, 2024 13:24:18 GMT
So by your logic anything a team David Clifford is on who wins anything is "no great achievement" Obviously you don’t understand the difference between minors and seniors Yes actually I do. |
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Oct 31, 2024 13:30:06 GMT
Yes I was led to believe Donie Buckley was forced upon PK so it was always going to be awkward.He could have dealt with Fionn Fitz better and Imo Fionn was left go too early.On the plus side of PK s ledger he brought back both Tommy Walsh and Jack Sherwood and he was the man to give Paudie Clifford his start too. In reality would Kerry have won in 2019 haf Fionn Fitzgerald been there? Same with Barry John Keane? They had given what they were going to give at that point. I recall Fitzgerald giving an interview where he basically said he didn't want to play with Kerry anyway. BJK could have made a difference, we were a point & man up in injury time and needed to go for an insurance point but instead started bringing on defensive players to try sit back and close out against a team littered with long range point kickers. It was a ludicrous thought process and in the end we only held on because they made poor shot selections. That was our chance gone, we were never going to find ourselves in that position in the replay |
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Oct 31, 2024 13:32:54 GMT
How Keane treated certain players and who he picked is not the issue for me. The performances and losses to Cork and Tyrone were shocking and the way the team was setup tactically was nowhere near the level required. Also winning minor all Irelands when you have David Clifford is no great achievement. As I said earlier in the thread, the fact fact the the CB kept him on after the cork loss is only outdone by the fact that he chose to stay on after that performance. David Clifford back inside his own half after 5 mins of the cork game will always be something that will stand out for me. We were tactically miles off that day, I know people were saying that we were trying out a setup that might beat Dublin but it couldn’t even beat a lower half division 2 team. We wrote off 2021 by keeping him |
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Post by hurlingman on Oct 31, 2024 21:38:19 GMT
In reality would Kerry have won in 2019 haf Fionn Fitzgerald been there? Same with Barry John Keane? They had given what they were going to give at that point. I recall Fitzgerald giving an interview where he basically said he didn't want to play with Kerry anyway. BJK could have made a difference, we were a point & man up in injury time and needed to go for an insurance point but instead started bringing on defensive players to try sit back and close out against a team littered with long range point kickers. It was a ludicrous thought process and in the end we only held on because they made poor shot selections. That was our chance gone, we were never going to find ourselves in that position in the replay BJK hadn't really been that impact sub he had been at that point. Imo any of the lads let gone were passed it. |
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Post by likeitornot on Oct 31, 2024 21:39:43 GMT
I wish Peter Keane the best, he is the latest Kerry manager to cross the Shannon following Micko, John Kennedy and Paidi, as well as the most recent incumbent- maybe there are more I've forgotten. Jack O'Connor's book laid bare the hazards of managing Kerry senior players and their entourages. Fast forward almost 20 years to the digital jungle, I wonder how anyone could be in doubt about how much more difficult it has become. Water under the bridge in any case - luck or no luck, 2019/20/21 are ancient history. I don’t think it was anything to do with entourages and more to do with the mismanagement of communication/relationships with players. He was a very good underage coach but underage players need different tutelage to senior players and the disciplinarian, school principal approach may not always work on grown men. Peter was on the back foot after his treatment of players from his first squad announcement and he continued in this vein. His aforementioned sidelining of his coach mid year also reflected poorly and as a manager you need to be aware that you are managing relationships & personalities as much as managing anything else. Could you elaborate on his treatment of players... i dont understand or know what your on about? |
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 1, 2024 7:47:08 GMT
BJK could have made a difference, we were a point & man up in injury time and needed to go for an insurance point but instead started bringing on defensive players to try sit back and close out against a team littered with long range point kickers. It was a ludicrous thought process and in the end we only held on because they made poor shot selections. That was our chance gone, we were never going to find ourselves in that position in the replay BJK hadn't really been that impact sub he had been at that point. Imo any of the lads let gone were passed it. We needed an attacking option that could carry the ball and could chase a ball put into space so as to give us an ‘out ball’ option. We just brought on more defensive players and tried to close it out 30 yards from our own goal. It defied belief then and still does, it genuinely annoys me to think of the naivety of it all |
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Post by john4 on Nov 2, 2024 9:54:41 GMT
Just listened to an interview with Shane O'Donnell recorded for last night's All Star awards where he mentioned how grateful he was to the Clare management team for their understanding with how late he begins training with the Clare team. The point he made was if he went in training earlier he'd be broken down by mid season.
From what I know about Shane, he's an intelligent guy. I think he's probably ahead of a lot of these S&C gurus who are obsessed with the Idea that more is better.
I see merit in his thinking. The human body is not a machine. A long period of rest is good for mind & body
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Post by ciarraimick on Nov 2, 2024 14:49:13 GMT
In reality would Kerry have won in 2019 haf Fionn Fitzgerald been there? Same with Barry John Keane? They had given what they were going to give at that point. I recall Fitzgerald giving an interview where he basically said he didn't want to play with Kerry anyway. BJK could have made a difference, we were a point & man up in injury time and needed to go for an insurance point but instead started bringing on defensive players to try sit back and close out against a team littered with long range point kickers. It was a ludicrous thought process and in the end we only held on because they made poor shot selections. That was our chance gone, we were never going to find ourselves in that position in the replay We had a chance to win 2019 final but the reality was Dubs were much better and we got a bit of luck to get back in the game and missed our chance. Im a realist and accept we dont deserve to win everything.Some posters cant see that.Some still say we would have beaten Armagh only for Shane Ryans mistake but the facts are it happened. Flip it the other way Only for Dublin error we would have been beaten easily in 2019 drawn final.Dubs were up 5 points and all over us.Then Paddy Small kicked a ball to put them 6 up but Shane Ryan caught it and it was delivered up field where a Dublin player spilled the ball and Tommy Walsh got it and then to Killian for the goal that changed the game.In the replay Dubs beat us easily. So if Armagh were lucky v us then we were lucky v Dubs and indeed Galway in 22.We cant have it everyway. |
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 2, 2024 15:14:37 GMT
You’re mixing the opinions of several posters there.
2019 was a chance missed, we were a point and a man up in injury time and we messed up tactically. We naive to a worrying level in terms of bringing on defensive players & hoping to close it out.
2020 was a fall on your sword moment and only reinforced the worries that emanated from 2019’s naivety.
2021 was written off once we agreed to keep PK on so a tactically naive collapse to Tyrone was always on the cards.
As an FYI, I don’t think Armagh got lucky against us.
We presented them with an a opportunity and they went & took it
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