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Post by kerrygold on May 3, 2016 7:54:47 GMT
We know summer has arrived when the spring decluttering is done and half the club players in Kerry have been chucked out of their respective championships by May Day. With yet another team from the West almost getting toasted in the Bronx!
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Post by kerrygold on May 5, 2016 13:05:54 GMT
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G_S_J
Senior Member
With greatness already assured, history now awaits.
Posts: 647
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Post by G_S_J on May 5, 2016 14:09:17 GMT
Worse fears for Greg Horan confirmed, tore his ACL in his right knee against Dingle on Sunday. Heartbreaking for the guy.
A lot of anger around The Rock also as the bumpy service in Annascaul being blamed. I know you can turn around and say every other player wasn't injured, but it certainly didn't help. It's bad because better pitches were available and with the high amount of effort players put in these days they deserve better.
County Board need to look at this
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Jigz84
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,017
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Post by Jigz84 on May 5, 2016 14:11:58 GMT
Worse fears for Greg Horan confirmed, tore his ACL in his right knee against Dingle on Sunday. Heartbreaking for the guy. A lot of anger around The Rock also as the bumpy service in Annascaul being blamed. I know you can turn around and say every other player wasn't injured, but it certainly didn't help. It's bad because better pitches were available and with the high amount of effort players put in these days they deserve better. County Board need to look at this A county semi-final should be played in either Austin Stack Park or Fitzgerald Stadium. You'd have to wonder about the County Board at times.
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Post by playitfair on May 5, 2016 16:55:01 GMT
I would have thought Annascaul being mid-way between both sides makes sense.
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Post by veteran on May 5, 2016 19:41:03 GMT
That is very disappointing news about Greg Horan, a fine player. He will be a big loss to Austin Stacks.
I wish him a complete and speedy recovery.
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seamus
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,741
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Post by seamus on May 9, 2016 8:09:14 GMT
Colm O'Rourke: 'Club players are the dirt under the nail, the stone in the shoe' Games have reached a tipping point as lavish elite structures are taking vital funds from grassroots
Colm O'Rourke PUBLISHED 08/05/2016 | 17:001 COMMENTSSHARE The situation in most counties is the county team are constantly training, even after the end of the league, and still months away from the championship Stock photo: Sportsfile1 The situation in most counties is the county team are constantly training, even after the end of the league, and still months away from the championship Stock photo: Sportsfile Some players might ask "is there life after county football?". "Is there a life with county football?" is a more appropriate question. And what about the club player?
SHARE GO TO If you are a club player you are the dirt under the nail, the stone in the shoe. Your lot will be discussed at every level, each presidential candidate will speak about the need to improve things but the reality is that clubs are treated worse, much worse, than even 10 years ago.
The reason is that the county team has become a monster. The county man is not a club player anymore, at least not until the county side are out of the championship. Then they return to their club where they have been nurtured but now need name tags to know who their teammates are.
This is not an issue of club fixtures. I have spoken to a lot of club managers from a lot of counties over the last couple of months. There are plenty of games but most are being played without the club's best players because they are training for the championship. Club players are released for short windows. Dublin, for example, have a few weeks with their clubs at present and strangely enough seem to train less collectively than far less successful counties. In other words, everyone else.
The situation in most counties is the county team are constantly training, even after the end of the league, and still months away from the championship. Players are told not to play with their clubs apart from championship games, or in some cases where counties have designated particular club league matches where county players must be available. What is happening in practice is that an unelected group involved in county management, which includes trainers, strength and conditioning coaches, dieticians, psychologists and an assorted range of other gurus, are dictating to clubs when they can have their players. Not only that, but it is done by the silent acquiescence of county board chairmen and executives. They may want to bask in the reflected glory if the county team win something, but the price is high. That price is the widespread disillusionment among club managers and officials who have no access to their players. County management groups are allowed to dictate who plays where and when.
Worse than that, clubs are levied by the board to boost finances which are being spent on county sides who have no chance of success. The ratio between the income of counties and what is being spent on county teams is way off the mark. The best information is that most counties spend between €3,000 and €5,000 per training session for county teams. This is made up of food, travel and all the paid employees who now assist the manager and selectors. So the most bizarre thing is that most management teams and all the players are involved for the right reasons and are being guided by a paid army of extras.
Even worse than that are the foreign training camps which cost huge money, although it appears some counties are being called to order. Why not just ban them? Strange that Dublin and Tyrone do not get involved in this practice and Dublin in particular don't seem to be suffering as a result. Again, club levies may not be used directly, but the money ends up in the same pot. And unfortunately there are not many of the old-style club delegates who used to hold the top table to account at county board meetings. Now, most business is done by sub-committees and nobody knows what is going on.
County football is not a sport anymore, it is a full-blown industry for some and while there is a role for specialists, particularly in the medical and physio end of things, there are bluffers involved as well. Teams are being trained five or six times a week by people who talk about rest and recovery and the importance of career advancement. Yet with this sort of time commitment between travel, training, eating, meetings etc it must take close to 30 hours per week. There is no time to rest and overuse injuries are prevalent. The only ones who can play in many of these counties are students, teachers or the unemployed and unemployable. If you have a job which finishes at six or seven, work shifts, or have a family, you cannot join the merry-go-round. In that way county football has become more like work than work itself.
I could not think of anything worse than the prospect of collective training five or six times a week. Imagine going home almost every evening and having to get your bag and head off training. It would fry your brain looking at the same ugly faces every night. I am glad I played in an enlightened era under Seán Boylan when we trained about four times a week and I did a bit on my own as well. But the tension release was to go back and play with the club. The breaks away playing club league matches kept players fresh and enthusiastic. Is it any wonder now that so many players are walking away from county football? In the majority of cases it is a guarantee of having no life outside football and no success either. If someone told me when I was playing that it was going to involve almost all of my spare time I would have said "no thanks".
What is even more disappointing is that players don't seem to have minds of their own anymore. They follow the lead like sheep. In the past there would have been healthy debate about the extent, duration and intensity of training.
Of course Páraic Duffy has tried to free up weekends for club activity. That is all very well but unless county boards ensure all players are released to their clubs then it is a waste of time. At every Congress there is a lot of talk about clubs. It is mainly bluff and bluster, especially when presidents are being elected. We have all heard those speeches. Why does the president and ard stiúrthóir not call in every county executive individually and ask them what games county players are available for their clubs.
County boards are failing clubs in many counties. They need to rein in county training, ensure players are released to their clubs and reduce the amount of money that is being spent on county sides, namely the senior football team. If that means there is not money to do some things with the county team then so be it. The man who stands at a gate and collects money at club championship matches does not realise that a big portion of this money is paying for weekends away or foreign holiday camps or paid employees of county teams. The flow of money should be going the other way, back to clubs.
County players need and deserve to be treated well as they are the main promotional tool of the game. However, we now have a monster which needs to be tackled from the top down. A good start could be made by returning the players to their clubs. It is hardly a radical idea.
Sunday Indo Sport
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Post by onlykerry on May 9, 2016 9:12:36 GMT
Whether we like it or not the game at the elite level has turned semi professional - the levels of investment in county teams within the elite county group is growing each year with huge support networks being built around the team. The players are being well looked after for their effort with holidays, expenses and for some sponsored cars etc.. They sacrifice a lot and it is some reward for them. This disparity means that unless the "dream team" factor comes into play most counties will never compete for the Sam Maguire as they do not have the financial clout to build the support network and systematically build success. And yes we are back to money as being at the root of this problem - the county team is heading in the direction of the provincial team in rugby. The only solution is to introduce strict rules in favour of club football - county must release players for all club county fixtures and players that do not play for their club are ineligible for inter-county fixtures. Align this to a county being ineligble to play beyond certain stages of the intercounty championship unless the county fixtures have gone beyond a certain point. Unless the club is put back centre stage the intercouty scene will inevitably end up professional.
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Post by Mickmack on May 9, 2016 21:40:37 GMT
Whether we like it or not the game at the elite level has turned semi professional - the levels of investment in county teams within the elite county group is growing each year with huge support networks being built around the team. The players are being well looked after for their effort with holidays, expenses and for some sponsored cars etc.. They sacrifice a lot and it is some reward for them. This disparity means that unless the "dream team" factor comes into play most counties will never compete for the Sam Maguire as they do not have the financial clout to build the support network and systematically build success.
And yes we are back to money as being at the root of this problem - the county team is heading in the direction of the provincial team in rugby. The only solution is to introduce strict rules in favour of club football - county must release players for all club county fixtures and players that do not play for their club are ineligible for inter-county fixtures. Align this to a county being ineligble to play beyond certain stages of the intercounty championship unless the county fixtures have gone beyond a certain point. Unless the club is put back centre stage the intercouty scene will inevitably end up professional. Dublin are so far ahead of the rest now in terms of money and professionalism that no one can predict where it will end if there will be an end.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 9, 2016 22:38:36 GMT
Whether we like it or not the game at the elite level has turned semi professional - the levels of investment in county teams within the elite county group is growing each year with huge support networks being built around the team. The players are being well looked after for their effort with holidays, expenses and for some sponsored cars etc.. They sacrifice a lot and it is some reward for them. This disparity means that unless the "dream team" factor comes into play most counties will never compete for the Sam Maguire as they do not have the financial clout to build the support network and systematically build success.
And yes we are back to money as being at the root of this problem - the county team is heading in the direction of the provincial team in rugby. The only solution is to introduce strict rules in favour of club football - county must release players for all club county fixtures and players that do not play for their club are ineligible for inter-county fixtures. Align this to a county being ineligble to play beyond certain stages of the intercounty championship unless the county fixtures have gone beyond a certain point. Unless the club is put back centre stage the intercouty scene will inevitably end up professional. Dublin are so far ahead of the rest now in terms of money and professionalism that no one can predict where it will end if there will be an end. Mick, you are deluding yourself only with this never-ending campaign. Everybody knows Kerry have raised millions abroad, their capacity to do so is way beyond any other county. And Kerry Group is one of the biggest companies in the world. Some day you will have to grow up and stop playing the poor innocent downtrodden. Kerry just don't fit that bill and never have.
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Post by Mickmack on May 9, 2016 22:53:16 GMT
I though the million or so that Kerry raised went on building a centre of excellence... subject to correction. Dublin get one for 13m built by the GAA for free... are they even measuring it for blue curtains!
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Post by Ballyfireside on May 10, 2016 2:54:54 GMT
Dublin's expenditure last year was 100 times Leitrim's, i.e. €2.6m v €26,000, and I don't know if Leitrim was the lowest nationally. Kerry Group sponsorship is not a blank cheque and while we want for nothing, I wonder where we are in the pecking order nationally. Sponsorship is related to population in terms of PR benefit and it is it only the county team that is funded, Clubs have local sponsors. As regards facilities Dublin is again away ahead, and because it has a number of sports facilities attached to educational institutions and of course the new at is it Irishtown will serve the Dublin GAA well. That ITT has a sports specialism will be our answer to DCU. It is all to do with globalisation induced rural depopulation and there is a thread on this - Templenoe, Rural Clubs, etc - Spillane in Exanminer.
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Post by kerrygold on May 10, 2016 8:07:29 GMT
Kerry apart, Dublin operate in a different galaxy to the rest of counties on the football landscape in terms of funding. As Dublin is the capital of the country this is not surprising, likewise Kerry are the leading football county in the country in terms of titles won at at all grades. It is not surprising that a company like Kerry Group would sponsor Kerry.
The challenge for the Gaa now might be to look at neighbouring counties dotted around the Pale and see if they can replicate Dublin's success in the Leinster championship and further afield. Central funding and the Spring Series in Croke Park have been hugely successful for Dublin football.
It is probably time for Dublin Gaa to build their own county venue now, a compact 25-30000 seater stadium for NFL and early championship games involving the Dubs.
Dublin playing 10 games approx every season in Croke Park has become an anomaly now on the back of the Spring Series and all Dublin championship games played Croker.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 10, 2016 9:31:11 GMT
Lads, the same old stuff. Kildare have wasted what are relatively huge resources over the last 25 years, if that's the criteria you are using, yet how often do I read here the same people saying anything about Kildare in comparison with Leitrim or whatever? Let alone over and over and over. Because Kildare are not being successful it's not an issue for those who are bored/frustrated and want something to campaign about. Kildare do not upset you so therefore Kildare's resources are not an issue.
But if yis want an actual honest debate about the issue of resources then stop being selective and give a proper perspective here. Can't recall anyone here questioning the millions that were raised through business and used to pay for things like high profile coaches in order to get a fast-track to senior team success, instead of looking to put resources into building up structures and facilities and young players.
Everybody knows how and why funding has been used the way it has. It's used where it is made good use of. Would I want lots of extra funding to go to some League of Ireland FCs from the FAI in the last 20 years, when quite a few of them were being badly run? No. When the right structures and plans are in place then the funding will be there, relative to the needs of each case, and that is the way it has been.
Going on about the needs of weaker counties in such a manipulative or naive or mis-directed way is of no help to anyone and is merely a distraction and deflection from the real issues. The real issues are organisations getting their act together, then the wealth can be better used. It's been said before and I will keep saying it, none of this stuff was trotted out before success came. Other counties were very happy out (still are) to take their cut of the huge gate receipts etc from Dublin games whilst laughing about the lack of national success of our senior teams. The cash-cow arrangement lead to the Leinster situation (though as we know, very few Leinster games have been played outside Croker since the early 90s).
As for the current/recent crop of Dublin senior players, quite a few came from underrage sides that came to prominence 10-15 years ago, before Vodafone, long before AIG. So the talent was coming through lads. The right things were being done, and the right rewards are being reaped.
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Post by onlykerry on May 10, 2016 9:51:56 GMT
The issue is not about trying to bring Dublin down - it is more about trying to ensure others rise to the challenge. Remember that the GAA is a community based organisation that has the club at its heart. The inter-county scene is the cash cow and more particularly the elite inter-county scene. It is critical that we get the balance right between "milking the cow" and maintaining and promoting the club scene - otherwise the association will split into a professional game and an amateur game and both will diverge over time. In time this will lead to player trading and the county identity will be lost. This is the natural progression unless action is taken to redress the club county imbalance and the imbalance between counties. Rashers is 100% correct in saying funding has been wasted by many counties - success is built on good foundations and with the exception of the occasional golden crop of players is the only way a county can lift itself from mediocrity. Also throwing money at counties is in itself pointless unless the county has the ability and desire to use these resources properly.
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Post by Ballyfireside on May 10, 2016 12:14:29 GMT
Rashers, I wasn't aware that Kildare had big money behind them and terms of any sponsorship are not publicly known. Plcs like Glanbia, Kingspan and Kerry Group are big and successful so sponsorship of The Cats, Cavan and Kerry are secure enough but there is a cliff where the amounts just drop, and Capital projects would be worse.
Nobody on here is silly enough to make out that the Dubs are only successful because of sponsorship, but what we are trying to do is to develop an understanding of the bigger picture.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 10, 2016 14:31:03 GMT
The issue is not about trying to bring Dublin down - it is more about trying to ensure others rise to the challenge. Remember that the GAA is a community based organisation that has the club at its heart. The inter-county scene is the cash cow and more particularly the elite inter-county scene. It is critical that we get the balance right between "milking the cow" and maintaining and promoting the club scene - otherwise the association will split into a professional game and an amateur game and both will diverge over time. In time this will lead to player trading and the county identity will be lost. This is the natural progression unless action is taken to redress the club county imbalance and the imbalance between counties. Rashers is 100% correct in saying funding has been wasted by many counties - success is built on good foundations and with the exception of the occasional golden crop of players is the only way a county can lift itself from mediocrity. Also throwing money at counties is in itself pointless unless the county has the ability and desire to use these resources properly. The thing is you won't find anyone who disagrees with wanting things to be better for everyone/across the board. I used to bang on and on and on about teams not having enough games in the best months of the year, about the need for open-draw, and so on. The fact you mention "golden crop" is apt because leaving aside any issue of resources, the fact is that every county, including the strongest ones, get a golden emergence of quality players at some stage. But in my experience this happens if that county are doing he right things in the first place, allied to the element of pure genetic chance etc. The resources issue is what makes the difference between high-level conditioning and so on, and that which is less so (this was always the case, it's well documented that counties who broke through from obscurity to achieve periods of great success have often started out with a goal of making their team(s) 'the fittest/strongest/fastest/hardest', and then building on it, if they had the talent. Furthermore the presence of well-used resources has helped some counties get more out of their talent and to maintain relative success for longer. But the key words there are 'well-used'. Some notion being alluded to, suggested, assumed, and bandied about that having more resources means you always have success is one of the lazy fallacies. If that were true then how come Limerick & Galway can win loads of All-I hurling u-21s, and still not win All-I seniors for decades? There is no argument that the Association should be supporting games development and basically promoting structure- development across the board. In my impression they have done this to a large extent, they may have emphasised some areas ahead of others at a given time, and this seems to be due to factors such as good structures and plans being in place, and therefore potential for extra resources to have a bigger impact being higher. It's a short or selective memory that doesn't aknowledge that the 1970s & first half of the 80s saw a vast gulf between Kerry, Dublin and the rest, and partly that came about due to application of more professional approaches by those two counties, who were to some extent influenced & inspired by, for example, the Down teams of the 1960s. Which subsequently inspired counties like Meath & Cork, and then quite a few Ulster counties. The same thoughts of woe and destruction were aired right down through all those eras. The fact that Mayo haven't won an All-I in 65 years, Kildare in 80 years, Waterford & Limerick hurlers in decades, and so on, is not really about resources, and therein lies some of the many complexities of the matter. Even Cork hurlers, with huge resources, have had a long fallow period, and little sign of it improving greatly. Armagh football had a club winning All-Is for fun but are nowhere near Sam since 2005. Cavan have had underrage success but little progress at senior level. Meath have plenty of resources, relatively speaking but are at their lowest ebb in decades. But sure why bother with all of that when there's a nice simplistic view. Why are people not more angry about Kilkenny football? They operate an elite hurling program for a long time now and nobody ever says a bad word. Because they fit into the natural order, where all's right with the world and in it's right place. And fair play to them by the way. Why can't Laois be even a bit like Kk? Or like Offaly in the 70s, 80s, 90s? Why can't Leitrim be a bit more like Roscommon? Cavan more like Monaghan? Wicklow like Wexford?
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Post by Ballyfireside on May 10, 2016 17:05:11 GMT
'The harder I try the luckier I get' Rashers and you have certainly unearthed a lot of aspects that I have often articulated on here in different ways. It is only complex in that it is varied and once we recognise that, it is simple really.
To succeed we must focus on what we can control and hope the wind is blowing the right direction, and it is the contender that scores most on aggregate that comes out on top, bearing in mind what I said in my opening line.
In business it is known as SWOT, Strengths and Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats. Strengths and Weaknesses that are within and over which we have some control. Opportunities and Threats are external and where we have to risk manage.
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Post by onlykerry on May 10, 2016 17:16:46 GMT
I find it difficult to understand why the so called B competitions are not made more attractive by the GAA by the addition of financial benefits - to win a B competition requires ambition and effort, reward it with money (this is one aspect of financial re-distribution I think should be looked at). Give 75k to the players holiday fund and 250k (for say two years) of coaching to help them go further and compete in A grade. Money talks and I bet this would get players and officials interest. Help those who are making the effort. Agree totally that counties that neglect one code should have their financial benefits from HQ clipped in a manner that makes them think twice about neglecting one code in favour of another. This includes but is not exclusive to KK.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 10, 2016 18:57:40 GMT
By the way I agree about the issue of the gap between elite gaelic sport and the lower levels, especially as regards clubs. Mind you club gaelic sport seems to be as strong as it ever was? And of course, like in rugby, there are more elite clubs. But there were always bigger, more powerful clubs. Who decides what 'gap' is acceptable? Lads always got 'looked after' by counties, if they were involved in the county teams, was that ever ok? Why is now not ok? Relative to the times we live in.
I don't clearly recall in my life that provincial competition was so dominated in 3 provinces by one team but it was virtually the case in the 1970s/early 80s. If I'm not wrong Galway dominated Connaught for most of the 70s and early 80s? And in the noughties Ulster was completely dominated by only two counties
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Post by Mickmack on May 10, 2016 20:41:05 GMT
The issue is not about trying to bring Dublin down - it is more about trying to ensure others rise to the challenge. Remember that the GAA is a community based organisation that has the club at its heart. The inter-county scene is the cash cow and more particularly the elite inter-county scene. It is critical that we get the balance right between "milking the cow" and maintaining and promoting the club scene - otherwise the association will split into a professional game and an amateur game and both will diverge over time. In time this will lead to player trading and the county identity will be lost. This is the natural progression unless action is taken to redress the club county imbalance and the imbalance between counties. Rashers is 100% correct in saying funding has been wasted by many counties - success is built on good foundations and with the exception of the occasional golden crop of players is the only way a county can lift itself from mediocrity. Also throwing money at counties is in itself pointless unless the county has the ability and desire to use these resources properly. The thing is you won't find anyone who disagrees with wanting things to be better for everyone/across the board. I used to bang on and on and on about teams not having enough games in the best months of the year, about the need for open-draw, and so on. The fact you mention "golden crop" is apt because leaving aside any issue of resources, the fact is that every county, including the strongest ones, get a golden emergence of quality players at some stage. But in my experience this happens if that county are doing he right things in the first place, allied to the element of pure genetic chance etc.
The resources issue is what makes the difference between high-level conditioning and so on, and that which is less so (this was always the case, it's well documented that counties who broke through from obscurity to achieve periods of great success have often started out with a goal of making their team(s) 'the fittest/strongest/fastest/hardest', and then building on it, if they had the talent. Furthermore the presence of well-used resources has helped some counties get more out of their talent and to maintain relative success for longer. But the key words there are 'well-used'. Some notion being alluded to, suggested, assumed, and bandied about that having more resources means you always have success is one of the lazy fallacies. If that were true then how come Limerick & Galway can win loads of All-I hurling u-21s, and still not win All-I seniors for decades? There is no argument that the Association should be supporting games development and basically promoting structure- development across the board. In my impression they have done this to a large extent, they may have emphasised some areas ahead of others at a given time, and this seems to be due to factors such as good structures and plans being in place, and therefore potential for extra resources to have a bigger impact being higher. It's a short or selective memory that doesn't aknowledge that the 1970s & first half of the 80s saw a vast gulf between Kerry, Dublin and the rest, and partly that came about due to application of more professional approaches by those two counties, who were to some extent influenced & inspired by, for example, the Down teams of the 1960s. Which subsequently inspired counties like Meath & Cork, and then quite a few Ulster counties. The same thoughts of woe and destruction were aired right down through all those eras. The fact that Mayo haven't won an All-I in 65 years, Kildare in 80 years, Waterford & Limerick hurlers in decades, and so on, is not really about resources, and therein lies some of the many complexities of the matter. Even Cork hurlers, with huge resources, have had a long fallow period, and little sign of it improving greatly. Armagh football had a club winning All-Is for fun but are nowhere near Sam since 2005. Cavan have had underrage success but little progress at senior level. Meath have plenty of resources, relatively speaking but are at their lowest ebb in decades. But sure why bother with all of that when there's a nice simplistic view. Why are people not more angry about Kilkenny football? They operate an elite hurling program for a long time now and nobody ever says a bad word. Because they fit into the natural order, where all's right with the world and in it's right place. And fair play to them by the way. Why can't Laois be even a bit like Kk? Or like Offaly in the 70s, 80s, 90s? Why can't Leitrim be a bit more like Roscommon? Cavan more like Monaghan? Wicklow like Wexford? I agree 100% that Dublin are entitled to have a "golden crop" every so often just like Kerry had during the Jacko years and the Darragh years. And Meath had two great teams with a short space of each other. Galway and Tyrone had two great sides not so long ago. I do believe however that Dublin for a long time was badly organised but its all changed changed utterly now. I dont see Dublin going back like Tyrone, Galway, and Meath did (and like Kerry have to a lesser extent). The recent success has clubs bursting with young lads playing. Its easier to organise training as most if not all Dublin players work in Dublin and within 30 mins of training. They have more moeny at their disposal. The change from 3 to 6 subs just widens the gap between the haves and the have nots and that was proven last year when Kerry brought on a rake of subs that Kildare couldnt match. Why not go back to 3 subs. In a nutshell, i believe that the Dublin giant has finally woken up and is now properly organised and it has more advantages over all opponents. The circumstances are different to other counties who went into decline. Just my opinion. Others may disagree and thats fine too.
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Post by Mickmack on May 11, 2016 7:33:34 GMT
Seán Moran: Inequality issue in the GAA not going away
How can Leitrim with a population of 32,000 hope to compete with likes of Dublin?
about an hour ago
Seán Moran in Todays Irish Times
This weekend the championship is upon us in earnest - Roscommon’s recent near-death experience in New York making this qualification less formulaic than usual.
If the narrative in hurling has perked up on the back of an exhilarating league final replay, partly because of the excitement but also because two historically less prominent counties, Clare and Waterford, were seen to be reaping the rewards of a lot of developmental work at under-age level, football is more anxious.
As Jim McGuinness pointed out in these pages that is because the shadow of Dublin looms over the championship. He also pointed out that the pessimism can be misplaced given that the champions aren’t unbeatable but equally drew attention to a structural lack of fairness in the way they don’t have to play away matches.
Next month’s opening Leinster match against either Laois or Wicklow will see Dublin on the road for the first time in 10 years and only captain Stephen Cluxton has actually ever played a championship match in a venue that wasn’t on Jones’s Road.
There’s no intention here to retread the arguments in relation to this and how Leinster Council - in other words the counties in the province - give their assent to this every year but the issue of inequality is creating a dilemma for the GAA in the general administration of its games.
Dublin’s position within the association is the lightning conductor for this issue but lack of equality stretches farther than that.
It goes all the way to the genesis of the association. The genius of a national organisation based on a ripple of concentric allegiances from club to county to province has been one of the strengths of Gaelic games.
It creates local rivalries and distils them until two counties arrive in Croke Park in September.
The problem is that the constituent parts are so diverse that the same championship encompasses Dublin with a population of nearly 1.3 million and Leitrim with fewer than 32,000.
That Dublin now have established a juggernaut presence scares people because there is a belief that after 131 years the county is finally making its demographic (population and age profile) and economic advantages count. This is presumably why the domination of Kilkenny and Kerry in their respective championships never prompts the same level of foreboding.
Hurling is at least content that not everyone can play at the same table but in football the default attitude is unabashed optimism and to be fair a Division Four team can occasionally beat a Division One opponent even if that is generally more of a commentary on the latter than the former.
Pursuit of success comes at a price, however. The most recent figures for the cost of inter-county team preparation come in at €22,000,000 for 2015 - a record - and this is just what goes through the county board books. It takes no account of individuals or bodies who raise and donate money through non-official channels.
This outside involvement makes simple measures like capping the expenditure of county teams very difficult.
The GAA centrally in Croke Park is concerned. The question of how money is disbursed is already under review by a financial management committee. Its work is sometimes represented as a way of ‘equalising’ what counties get and by implication redistributing Dublin’s share in recognition of their commercial appeal.
Jim McGuinness also suggested revisiting the proposal of the 1997 Amateur Status report whereby a big national sponsorship would be sold by the GAA centrally and the money divided out.
This was strenuously opposed by the bigger counties, including unsurprisingly Cork and Dublin, and there were questions as to whether this approach would realise greater revenue than the sum total of local agreements given the incentive for units to make the best possible deal for themselves and work them to optimal effect.
The other concern is the expanding role of back-room teams in the bigger counties. These levels of expertise have to be largely bought in because there’s only so much time even the best-disposed voluntary professional can give but the levels of expenditure are jaw-dropping in supposedly amateur sports.
None of this would be a serious problem were the GAA simply charged with levelling the playing field for senior inter-county purposes but the association operates at two levels: one is organising the elite competitions whose revenues effectively bank-roll everything and the other is administering the activities and promotion of a massive, voluntary recreational organisation.
Dublin is the main population centre of the country and the biggest urban area with the highest-profile competing sports. In order to maximise the footprint of Gaelic games the county has to be well resourced. By doing that the GAA also assist in the strengthening of the county as competitive force.
Similarly, the structures of the championship since the introduction of the qualifiers 15 years ago have contributed to the emergence of a self perpetuating elite.
It’s the consensus view that the football championship only starts in August with the All-Ireland quarter-finals and the teams that progress that far gain experience at the top end of the competition as well as building up panel cohesion and residual fitness. Occasionally, different counties crash the party but the recidivist levels are highest among the familiar names.
Dublin have been to the last four of the championship for each of the past six years, Mayo for five, Kerry for four and Donegal for three - two-thirds of all semi-final places going to four counties.
Such levels of inequality have always been present within Gaelic games. The question now is will they continue to serve the association into the future?
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Post by kerrygold on May 11, 2016 8:38:15 GMT
Dublin absolutely need their own 25-35000 fit for purpose seater stadium now to readdress this anomaly of playing 10 games plus every year in Croke Park. No other county enjoys this huge advantage. The Spring Series has served it's purpose of bringing Dublin to the top table. Time to move on.
Twenty two million, the official figure, but not the actual figure, of preparing county teams is ridiculous and is too big of a draw on county boards. These idle 6-8 week windows throughout the season with county training sessions costing 3-5 k each needs to be addressed.
This cant be addressed without evening up the provincial numbers and creating seasonal windows of club & county championship football existing side by side with even windows of preparation, rest & recovery the same for all teams, club and county, across the country, combined with serious regulation of financial budgets.
Dublin's own 25-35000 fit for purpose stadium would generate huge rental streams of revenue in it's own right.
Finally, financial input into weaker county will only bring the game so far. Some counties don't have the playing base and skill levels to compete consistently at the top table.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 11, 2016 9:03:27 GMT
The thing is you won't find anyone who disagrees with wanting things to be better for everyone/across the board. I used to bang on and on and on about teams not having enough games in the best months of the year, about the need for open-draw, and so on. The fact you mention "golden crop" is apt because leaving aside any issue of resources, the fact is that every county, including the strongest ones, get a golden emergence of quality players at some stage. But in my experience this happens if that county are doing he right things in the first place, allied to the element of pure genetic chance etc.
The resources issue is what makes the difference between high-level conditioning and so on, and that which is less so (this was always the case, it's well documented that counties who broke through from obscurity to achieve periods of great success have often started out with a goal of making their team(s) 'the fittest/strongest/fastest/hardest', and then building on it, if they had the talent. Furthermore the presence of well-used resources has helped some counties get more out of their talent and to maintain relative success for longer. But the key words there are 'well-used'. Some notion being alluded to, suggested, assumed, and bandied about that having more resources means you always have success is one of the lazy fallacies. If that were true then how come Limerick & Galway can win loads of All-I hurling u-21s, and still not win All-I seniors for decades? There is no argument that the Association should be supporting games development and basically promoting structure- development across the board. In my impression they have done this to a large extent, they may have emphasised some areas ahead of others at a given time, and this seems to be due to factors such as good structures and plans being in place, and therefore potential for extra resources to have a bigger impact being higher. It's a short or selective memory that doesn't aknowledge that the 1970s & first half of the 80s saw a vast gulf between Kerry, Dublin and the rest, and partly that came about due to application of more professional approaches by those two counties, who were to some extent influenced & inspired by, for example, the Down teams of the 1960s. Which subsequently inspired counties like Meath & Cork, and then quite a few Ulster counties. The same thoughts of woe and destruction were aired right down through all those eras. The fact that Mayo haven't won an All-I in 65 years, Kildare in 80 years, Waterford & Limerick hurlers in decades, and so on, is not really about resources, and therein lies some of the many complexities of the matter. Even Cork hurlers, with huge resources, have had a long fallow period, and little sign of it improving greatly. Armagh football had a club winning All-Is for fun but are nowhere near Sam since 2005. Cavan have had underrage success but little progress at senior level. Meath have plenty of resources, relatively speaking but are at their lowest ebb in decades. But sure why bother with all of that when there's a nice simplistic view. Why are people not more angry about Kilkenny football? They operate an elite hurling program for a long time now and nobody ever says a bad word. Because they fit into the natural order, where all's right with the world and in it's right place. And fair play to them by the way. Why can't Laois be even a bit like Kk? Or like Offaly in the 70s, 80s, 90s? Why can't Leitrim be a bit more like Roscommon? Cavan more like Monaghan? Wicklow like Wexford? I agree 100% that Dublin are entitled to have a "golden crop" every so often just like Kerry had during the Jacko years and the Darragh years. And Meath had two great teams with a short space of each other. Galway and Tyrone had two great sides not so long ago. I do believe however that Dublin for a long time was badly organised but its all changed changed utterly now. I dont see Dublin going back like Tyrone, Galway, and Meath did (and like Kerry have to a lesser extent). The recent success has clubs bursting with young lads playing. Its easier to organise training as most if not all Dublin players work in Dublin and within 30 mins of training. They have more moeny at their disposal. The change from 3 to 6 subs just widens the gap between the haves and the have nots and that was proven last year when Kerry brought on a rake of subs that Kildare couldnt match. Why not go back to 3 subs. In a nutshell, i believe that the Dublin giant has finally woken up and is now properly organised and it has more advantages over all opponents. The circumstances are different to other counties who went into decline. Just my opinion. Others may disagree and thats fine too. What you neglect to say is that GAA in Dublin has been based in certain core zones, with large swathes having only small pockets of activity, generally at the lower end of the scale. And that the existence, and survival/flourishing of alot of these zones and pockets is largely dependent on the work of volunteers, like anywhere, and some/a few outstanding individuals. Take Raheny (the nearest club where I grew up) for example, that has produced the likes of Jack Dempsey, David Hickey, Ciaran Whelan & Brian Fenton. They are located in what I would call one of the core zones, and yet are an intermediate level club. St Vincent's, a large, very successful senior club, (which was based in Raheny for a while), have been largely dependent on the tireless work of individuals like Kevin Heffernan (an outstanding one-off) over a lifetime. Ballymun are another great example. Really only worked their way up from nothing in the last 40 years, in an area where soccer was king (nearby Whitehall, Santry, Cabra, Glasnevin & Finglas have produced several of Ireland's top players over the years). My own parish had/has a junior club that was entirely born out of the efforts of no more than 3 great individuals, a Clare man, a Limerick man & a local. The Clareman was my teacher. My best friend had the talent and physicality to play the games to the highest levels but was lost to that because of the multiple other distractions, the lack of a culture of GAA as religion, which other areas of the country had/still have to a fairly large extent. People who talk, incessantly now, about inequality, fairness, finance, resources, population, the existence of the games, where were these people, and why were they so quiet, when the games struggled to exist at all in many large parts of the city? More recently the strength and flourishing of the Assoc, or more especially of the games, and clubs here has been down to a couple of great people. One of those is John Costello. A person of such talent, energy, vision, and devotion to organise and direct the whole shebang in the county only comes along once in a century, I would argue. And as for Kerry "going back to" in the same sentence as Meath, I mean seriously, you've got to be joking? They won an All-I two years ago, they got to the next final (first team since, eh, Kerry to do so in 10 years) and lost by 3 points. They got to the Nat League final (first time in 7 years). They have dominated their province the last 10 years, where they compete with the strongest county in the Assoc. They have issues at underrage level but they haven't historically had huge success agt those levels on a consistent basis. Anybody who knows anything about county boards, and you know plenty more than me, will tell you that counties like Galway are largely hamstrung by malfunctioning admin & organisation. These are issues that have to be sorted internally. They were sorted here. They always seem sorted in Kerry. They won't always be sorted here because it's not founded on such solid ground, upheavels will happen again. Alot depends on how things pan out with soccer and rugby, with the latter currently entering a bit of a lull but what will be the impact of the explosion of rugby in the last 15 years? It's always a knock-on thing. Rugby and soccer have the wider, international, and commercial appeal. GAA can't compete with that. Loads of people I know are largely unaware of and disinterested in GAA sports, only when their own county has success at senior level. This also goes for places like Clare, not a hugely populated or resourced area. Like Offaly in the 1970s to 1990s they have a small core area of hurling activity. They have developed it to the point where they have produced one of the most talented squads of players anywhere. But furthermore they have started to win titles, national titles, and will probably win more. Sean Moran's piece says nothing. It's just another vehicle for trotting out eye-catching populist words like juggernaut. Your post threw out 'giant'. Yet I know that you know, it's really about the local, about the individuals, and that all periods of novelty and bursts of new popularity pass. The only thing that makes things really happen is effort, the effort of individuals. The success of the 1970s/early 80s teams here also had clubs "bursting with lads" but by the mid-1990s it was clear that the situation had rapidly returned to not much better than it was in the 60s/early 70s. The craze had passed. Pat O'Neill & David Hickey stated in the mid-90s that there was nothing coming through for a long time. How right they were. One or two of the same people involved then did massive voluntary work to help make what has happened since happen. These are the facts. Funding and resources and so on are the rewards of the efforts. But if and when the day comes that these evangelists no longer exist or appear, then all will indeed be changed.
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Post by onlykerry on May 11, 2016 9:05:31 GMT
Looking at the situation statistically - using data from the 15 years since the backdoor (and hence QF's) were introduced in 2001 and looking at the number of QF appearances by county. 21 of the 32 counties have appeared in at least one QF in those fifteen years. Six counties are out in front with appearances with Kerry on 15, Dublin on 14, Tyrone on 12, Cork on 11, Mayo on 10 and Donegal on 9.
One comment from above that I think is interesting relates to the number of substitutes allowed - smaller counties may well get a team from time to time but having 21+ top class players is difficult. Would restricting the number of substitutions be a way of evening the battle a little. Dublin and Kerry frequently kill games by the introduction of top class substitutes, weaker counties having given their all don't have the luxury of a strong bench.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 11, 2016 9:16:21 GMT
Looking at the situation statistically - using data from the 15 years since the backdoor (and hence QF's) were introduced in 2001 and looking at the number of QF appearances by county. 21 of the 32 counties have appeared in at least one QF in those fifteen years. Six counties are out in front with appearances with Kerry on 15, Dublin on 14, Tyrone on 12, Cork on 11, Mayo on 10 and Donegal on 9. One comment from above that I think is interesting relates to the number of substitutes allowed - smaller counties may well get a team from time to time but having 21+ top class players is difficult. Would restricting the number of substitutions be a way of evening the battle a little. Dublin and Kerry frequently kill games by the introduction of top class substitutes, weaker counties having given their all don't have the luxury of a strong bench. I don't see how it has made such a difference, every county, every team can use the same number of players. Who's to say that 18 levels the field more than 21? With 18 each side could pick their best 3 of all the other players on the panel, now it's the best 6 of the same group. You could equally argue that a weaker team who might depend more on hard work by less talented players, supporting the few very talented players need the extra subs more as their less-talented players are more knackered. That of course is as irrelevant as the other argument. Whether 18, 21 or 24 or whatever number of players it's all relative. A stronger panel will almost always have a better team, as long as the coaches pick well. At times the dilution of focus due to 'too many options' syndrome has been shown to be a problem as well. A weaker county needs to develop a stronger squad to get better, the same as it ever was.
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Post by Ballyfireside on May 11, 2016 9:24:22 GMT
Short of breaking up Dublin we cannot eliminate the natural population and economic advantage. I think the best we can do is to restructure the championship so that weaker teams can win national competitions and this can be done by having teams that are knocked out at corresponding rounds compete for such titles, i.e. Have 4 All Ireland competitions, bearing in mind that every team has a path to win Sam in a given year. It could be run alongside or as an alternative to the backdoor. Central funding could be allocated accordingly and teams would have the opportunity to play a good few games each summer. We would have 4 All Ireland Championships each year, ands teams would come on from competing at their own level. I suppose in a way it is like the league and which works wonders, and avoids the nonsense of the Dublins playing the Longfords of the world and where there is no benefit for anyone.
As I said time and again, it is external factors we must adjust to in maximising the dividend that the GAA generates, and then allocating it out in an equitable manner. Can you imagine the benefit of say the Cavans, Limericks, Clares, Louths, etc winning Championship silver annually, nor forgetting the Leitrims, Antrims, Fermanaghs, etc.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 11, 2016 10:10:10 GMT
Short of breaking up Dublin we cannot eliminate the natural population and economic advantage. I think the best we can do is to restructure the championship so that weaker teams can win national competitions and this can be done by having teams that are knocked out at corresponding rounds compete for such titles, i.e. Have 4 All Ireland competitions, bearing in mind that every team has a path to win Sam in a given year. It could be run alongside or as an alternative to the backdoor. Central funding could be allocated accordingly and teams would have the opportunity to play a good few games each summer. We would have 4 All Ireland Championships each year, ands teams would come on from competing at their own level. I suppose in a way it is like the league and which works wonders, and avoids the nonsense of the Dublins playing the Longfords of the world and where there is no benefit for anyone. As I said time and again, it is external factors we must adjust to in maximising the dividend that the GAA generates, and then allocating it out in an equitable manner. Can you imagine the benefit of say the Cavans, Limericks, Clares, Louths, etc winning Championship silver annually, nor forgetting the Leitrims, Antrims, Fermanaghs, etc. There's always advantages and disadvantages. But as a matter of interest, does anybody have stats on senior playing populations? That is, number of players playing senior level by county? Because that's what we're talking about here, bandying around the word 'population' means nothing. Belfast has a general pop of 585,000 people. But how many senior hurlers or footballers?
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Post by onlykerry on May 11, 2016 10:59:19 GMT
You miss my point about the number of subs - watching juvenile football it is very evident that the numbers game is important. Even the bigger clubs can struggle with 15 good u14's for a team and frequently thir bench can be rather weak. Rural clubs in the lower divisions end up playing 13 aside for this same reason. Translate this to the inter-county scene where a longford with 22 clubs to asemble a team from are up against Cork with over 250 clubs. The likelyhood is that the Cork panel will be far stronger than the Longford panel - by restricting the subs used you counteract this advantage which primarily comes from the numerical resources available to both counties. Counties with numerical advantages will invariably translate into stronger panels - incidentally Cork have more registered clubs than any other county (including Dublin), this does not necessarily translate into players.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 11, 2016 11:26:45 GMT
You miss my point about the number of subs - watching juvenile football it is very evident that the numbers game is important. Even the bigger clubs can struggle with 15 good u14's for a team and frequently thir bench can be rather weak. Rural clubs in the lower divisions end up playing 13 aside for this same reason. Translate this to the inter-county scene where a longford with 22 clubs to asemble a team from are up against Cork with over 250 clubs. The likelyhood is that the Cork panel will be far stronger than the Longford panel - by restricting the subs used you counteract this advantage which primarily comes from the numerical resources available to both counties. Counties with numerical advantages will invariably translate into stronger panels - incidentally Cork have more registered clubs than any other county (including Dublin), this does not necessarily translate into players. Didn't miss your point at all, I think you misunderstood my response. What I said was Longford have always got less quality than Cork. 3 subs or 6 subs or no subs or 14 subs, Longford have the same less quality. Before they both picked their best 18. Now they pick their best 21. Whats the advantage of Corks best 21 over Longfords best 21 as against best 18? Cork have say, for arguments' sake 7,000 senior players to pick from. Longford have 500. Longfords best 21 is the same as their best 18 except they can substitute more players. Same for Cork. Whatever way you look at it it still means Cork have more better players than Longford. There isn't some rule that says beyond 18 players Longford no longer have the same ability relative to Cork, it's exactly the same as their ability relative to Cork for 18 players. If Cork had 5 million players and Longford had 21 both would pick their best 21. If they both had to pick their best 18 the issue would remain the same, each has a certain best allowed number, and it's the quality available that matters, not the allowed number. If they both had to pick only 15, no subs, it would be no advantage to Longford as they would have the same ability relative to Cork. Now I know that a county can focus elite prep resources on their best players. But they will do that for 21 just as they did it for 18 (simplistic I know because in fact they have to do it for the whole squad, and any lads who are being streamlined for the squad.) The issue of the resources for prep available to Longford & Cork really is of no relevance to a difference of 3 players
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