This forward-line needs leadership

[xuaeb2000]

Perhaps, I should have said this Forward-line needs leadership.
I have been stewing since last year's All-Ireland. Even though we were well beaten in the end, it was a lost opportunity. We all know we had Tyrone on the run until the Gooch incident. Then we slowed play completely and started the messing in the middle of the park. Was that because, psychologically, players felt that with Gooch out of it (they were not to know that would only be temporarily) they had no focal point up front - so they started playing keep ball.
Things happen in games - they rarely run to a preordained script. That is where leaders come in. I just feel that this Forward-line does not have any natural leader. With all the talk of young players coming in such as Sheehan, O'Sullivan and now O'Connor this highlights the need for a leader. My suggestion is Seamus Moynihan. For all his great attributes, i do not see him being able to hold the fort either at CentreBack or WingBack. I know that he is looking good at the moment, but because he is such an athlete he will always be to the fore at this time of the year. Just check back on the last number of years. But he was not able for it last year and it was painful to watch. While I do not feel that he can hold the fort as of yore, we have to have him on the team. At this stage of his career, his greatest attribute is his leadership - which is not the arm waving, vocal style (which is usually only of value to the Television people) - but is of a deeper variety. His value as a leader comes from two things. One the respect from his own teammates and the other is the respect from the opposition.
Regardless of it's composition this team has become predictable. We need to present the opposition with some new challenges. Consider for a moment any set of backs you would expect to meet Kerry this year. Which would they prefer to be met with: the predictable nice ball carrying one dimensional "give it to Gooch" approach or a fresh approach where there is a genuine leader, battler, never say die merchant who has the T-Shirt. OK, forget about the opposition. How do you think our two corner forwards would feel having Moynihan at their shoulder. How would our outfield players feel about letting it in faster if they had a focal point like Moynihan up front. I have seen suggestions for putting Donaghy up front and I can see where they are coming from. But this is something completely different. This is where we are taking the battle right into their dangerous area. I am not expecting Moynihan to reinvent the Full-forward position. But how many of you expected him to do as well FullBack?? Remember the balls that Chris Lawn fielded one after another in the second-half of last years All-Ireland. Think about how much leadership there was up front at that stage. It is when things are not going well that you need leadership. It is the one single element missing from this Kerry Team over the past years. It is one thing explains those "unKerry-like" performances that bedevil us when push has come to shove. Kerry teams all through the ages beat teams which were far more resourced than them. It was always through character and leadership.
In a nutshell, I feel that Seamus is just too far along the road to expect him to hold the Pass (and that it is unfair to expect as much). I feel that we have to have him on the team. We have a real problem upfront. We have a leadership deficit. This is a Management decision which has less to do with football than with understanding the myriad forces and positive dynamics that go to make up the winning team.
Think about it.
PS.
And when I said two corner forwards I meant TWO. Forget with this slavish withdrawing of a forward "to create more space". Let's take the battle to the opposition and put them on the back foot.

[scoobydo]

good first post and I would have no problem with kerry if they tried it out! What kerry would have done for John Crowley against Tyrone last year.

[Mickmack]

During the kerry golen years period the forward line read;

Pat Spillane, Ogie moran, Ger Power
Mikey Sheehy, Bomber, John Egan.

When the team broke up, all the usual plaudits were handed out.

However, of the 6 above, Colm o Rourke wrote that only the Bomber was unmarkable. The high Ball into the full forward line was used when all other routes were shut off.

Chris lawn was allowed to catch 3 balls uncontested in the last 15 minutes. It was painful to watch. WE NEED A BIG FULL FORWARD............................URGENTLY

[kerrygold]

i couldn't agree more you as regards playing seamus in the forwards,you ideas make perfect sense in my mind.I'd be inclined to play him at centre forward and have two big lads inside to break high ball for the gooch to play off.
you'll proberly not get too much support here for your ideas though,wait for the backlash.

my kerry team from 8 to 15 would be.

8.dara,9.sheehan,
10.galvin,11.seamus12.declan,
13.firzmaurice,14.gooch,15.brosnan.

galvin and declan playing as two attacking wind forwards,
seamus picking up breaks and directing things from the forthy,
the three lads standing inside to gether with the gooch picking up breaking ball put in high over the top.
the gooch coming out and left and right collecting passes kicked in.

when ye have calmed downed from the hysterical reaction,look at the merits of having two big lads inside to catch or break high ball in over the top for the gooch and having seamus on the forty playing good passes in for the gooch to run on to.

[eastciarrai]

Seamus's speed he had at his best is well gone. The point that we need leadership in the forwards is true but seamus is'nt the answer. When we had to put a strong man in there before we put quirke which didnt work but theres surely a happy medium between quirkes size and goochs skill. Seamus could win ball but scoring for him could be a struggle. Its one thing to burst forward and score an inspirational point every two or three games but could he score 4 or 5 points a game. No chance. We need to find a new cinneide or crowley, someone strong to help out the lighter forwards we already have.

[inforthebreaks]

so do we pluck one from thin air? Who is a big full forward we can throw in there. for all Moynihans attributes i dont think he is a full forward. And I dont see the piunt in throwing him in there just to have him on teh team. If he is not good enough for thte half back line anymore then use him as an impact sub (this year he has been faultless so the place is his to lose in my opinion) So where are we going to get this big full forward from? We dont have a natural one and trying to fashion one out of a midfielder or a back is not the answer. football is different since the bomber lorded it on top of the square. players are fitter, cuter, and more able to break up play if the ball is just hoofed in.

[eastciarrai]

8.dara,9.sheehan,
10.galvin,11.seamus12.declan,
13.firzmaurice,14.gooch,15.brosnan.

fitzmaurice in the corner you're having laugh now,whatever bout playing him at centerforward to win ball.

[Mickmack]

what about aodhan macgearailt at 14............ is he injured or what is the problem

[kerrygold]

eastciarrai said:

8.dara,9.sheehan,
10.galvin,11.seamus12.declan,
13.firzmaurice,14.gooch,15.brosnan.

fitzmaurice in the corner you're having laugh now,whatever bout playing him at centerforward to win ball.

no i'm deadly serious,think of the merits of having two big men inside to contest high ball with the gooch playing the lines from fullforward.

[kerrygold]

mickmack said:

what about aodhan macgearailt at 14............ is he injured or what is the problem

obviously he is perceived by management not to be good enough.

[eastciarrai]

The impact sub idea is spot on. Bringing seamus on for last 20 mins would work great. Im not saying find a new bomber but someone stronger than what we have. Tyrone dont give light forwards much room to run just bottle them up. Someone a bit stronger to help catch ball like crowley used to. If you cant find one on the panel, look harder.

[Joxer]

welcome aboard xuaeb2000, Kerrygold and I with the support of 1 or 2 others have ploughed this furrow for a while now. To me it makes perfect sense to use Seamus in the forward line as his football brain is certainly not lacking whereas he may be found wanting for pace in the defence this year. Whether or not he is found wanting in defence is of course n ot the point....he could be a leader for the forwards and the risk that it mightn't work out is minuscule surely?

[eastciarrai]

Maybe brosnan to catch or break ball even one or two score and play of his clubmate but i couldnt see fitzmaurice curling them over bar from near sideline

[kerrygold]

eastciarrai said:

Maybe brosnan to catch or break ball even one or two score and play of his clubmate but i couldnt see fitzmaurice curling them over bar from near sideline

are you telling me that fitzmaurice couldn't kick the ball over the bar from 20 to 30 yards after taking a short pass from the gooch.

do ye not think that fitzmaurice couldn't have caught any of the ball that crowley caught against mayo in '04.

[austinstacksabu]

Question: Apart from the pedantic answer of Seamus coming on at wing forward in the 2004 final, when has Seamus Moynihan ever played as a forward? If he did, I'd love to know. I've just never heard of it.

This Seamus for full forward lark is driving me bats. I can't see where it's coming from. It's desperation. I'd much prefer to see Brosnan put in at midfield with Daragh O'Se, Eamonn Fitzmaurice remain at half forward and Donaghy go in at full forward where he can catch ball (but maybe not be the worlds most prolific scorer) than try Seamus Moynihan, with 0% experience that I can recall, at full forward.

[Joxer]

Ok, Austinstacks abu, hop aboard a time capsule and travel back to the spring of 2000....Seamus playing full-back? You can't be serious? Thats desperation (yes, but what of it?). Name one serious game when hes played there? We need a specilist full-back? Seamus is too small...etc.

Our forward line tactics are hardly revolutionary at present...get it to Gooch being the only tactic to speak of. Some else to form a fulcrum for the attack might just increase our options. Worth a shot surely? ...or should we stop trying to think outside of conventional lines? Surprised at you ASAABU..........

[MrT]

aparently he was given his debut at wing forward.thats according to an ex teacher who was selector at the time.fair enough if it doesnt work out but would be woth a try.we cannot be relyiing on youngsters like o connor/sulllivan as they need time.remember when gooch broke into the senior team he had cinneide n crowley there to ease him in,he could look up to both n get protection off em.when dara o se legs begin to tire i can definately see him inside there,that man can definately take a score but in the meantime id like to go with aodhan/moynihan as dec is not an intercounty FF

[inforthebreaks]

joxer said:

Ok, Austinstacks abu, hop aboard a time capsule and travel back to the spring of 2000....Seamus playing full-back? You can't be serious? Thats desperation (yes, but what of it?). Name one serious game when hes played there? We need a specilist full-back? Seamus is too small...etc.

Our forward line tactics are hardly revolutionary at present...get it to Gooch being the only tactic to speak of. Some else to form a fulcrum for the attack might just increase our options. Worth a shot surely? ...or should we stop trying to think outside of conventional lines? Surprised at you ASAABU..........

In Fairness Joxer, while he wasn't a full back at least he was a defender. Putting him in full forward is another kettle of fish altogether. Square plugs and round holes.

[kerrygold]

boylan won 4 all-ireland titles with meath with a famine like shortage of forwards,his half forward line for the '87'88 victories contained a 20 year old club rugy players with very little football experience(beggy) a 33 year old corner back(cassels) at no.11 and a 19 yr.old midfielder from the previous years minor team,none majorly experienced forwards but capable of doing a job and getting the ball into flynn and o rourke.
in 96 he won another all-ireland with another corner back at fullforward brendan reilly,what right had brendan reilly to score the winning point in the dying seconds v mayo in the replay with his weaker left foot after cutting in from the sideline.
in 99 boylan won another all-ireland with geraghty a wing back at fullforward,
i suppose they were all laughing at boylan in meath.
sometimes its not about being experienced for the job,great players can adapt to do a job on a given day,ask brendan reilly.

[Mickmack]

1998 Brian Whelehan was sick and being roasted at wing back. Rather than take him off Offaly shoved him in at full forward......... he got 1-5 and won the man of the match award.

[kerrygold]

mickmack said:

1998 Brian Whelehan was sick and being roasted at wing back. Rather than take him off Offaly shoved him in at full forward......... he got 1-5 and won the man of the match award.

and an all-star at fullforward that year.

[Mickmack]

Gane set and match to kerrygold

[Dermot]

I too remember once during the silage when me aul fella was short of a "drawer in" - He got me to do it and I was a marvel - Up until that point I'd only ever been a "Buck Raker" ............ I turned out to be one of the best "Drawer Iners" he'd ever seen !

Well thats what he said anyway !

p.s. anyone not reared on a farm please ignore this post

[Aodhan]

Seamus came on as a sub and played corner forward against Armagh in a league game in Tralee a few years ago and turned the game Kerry's way. Back then he would be effective anywhere on the pitch. Leave him where he is, he seems injury free for the first time in a number of years and has the spring back in his step. That misdiagnosed ankle injury set him back no end and we will see a far better Seamus Moynihan this year. Surely the Eamon Fitzmaurice experiment has been finally put to rest, what a disaster that was although I realize very few, if any, on this board agree. Seeing that he played for Finuge last week indicates that he will not be starting on Sunday. I agree with stacksabu, Donaghy can do a job at full forward, the high ball going into the full forward line, mainly towards Gooch's vicinity and coming straight back out again is hard to watch. Donaghy is capable of causing major problems in there for any opposition with his height and fielding ability.

As xuaeb2000 pointed out Kerry need to get back to playing Kerry football and stop trying to beat the opposition at their own game. Armagh and Tyrone have perfected their system and we are only playing into their hands in attempting to emulate them. The best form of defense is attack and making the opposition worry about us not the other way around. Have we learned any lessons for last years final? I have my doubts as the evidence is not there yet.

[Jo90]

Putting a couple of big men in the full-forward would be a disaster for Kerry. Instead of trying to work the ball in or giving the Gooch the 30-40 yard diagonal passes that he thrives on, virtually every ball the half-backs and midfield get would be garryowened into the full-forward line where the opposing backs would clean up regardless of who's in there.

[austinstacksabu]

To be honest Joxer, I'm still not convinced. What evidence do we have that Seamus is the best man to win high ball coming in and distribute it? If anybody, that would be Daragh O'Se's strength.

Moving Seamus to full back was a bit radical, but then he was a back, and was still a back when the moving was done. The main change of discipline for him was in how he approached the game, he had to stay at full back, and not charge out the field so much (he should pass on some tips to Declan). It requires something completely different at full forward. Yes, Boylan did it, but again, these lads were moved into the half forward line. Apart from scoring, the role of the half forward isn't that varied from that of the half back. They are the first line of defence on many occasions. He moved Geraghty to corner forward, and Whelahan moved there for Offaly etc, but these were young men, far more agile than Seamus is now, in their prime as it were.

Why not Donaghy or Fitzmaurice?

[watchdahop]

My Two cents for what its worth: I dont see Seamus as a full forward, not at this stage of his career and this stage of the season.
I flew the kite earlier of playing him the half forward line (on the programme) but really having him as a link between defence and attack.
I think we have enough backs of the standard without Seamus and Seamus might be targetted by a speed merchant if staying in the backs. We could always use his distribution sense up there.
I just can't see him with his back to goal as a full forward.
I think this debate and suggestion stems from the lack of an obvious target man inside.
Watch Sheehan being auditioned for the role next sunday.

[watchdahop]

Another thing: does any one else thing that the sucess of the "high ball in" against Mayo in 2004 is now coming back to haunt us as we can't see beyond it? We were at it the last day against Waterford and against Galway in the first half of the league final.
Do we need an oak of a full forward or is there a different approach? A different approach might lessen the need/pursuit of a target man inside.

[Original KYFan]

I've said it before, but I think a fully fit Kirby could really do a job at FF. Strong, good in the air, well able to take scores, good eye for making runs. Soneone else mentioned finding someone to do an O'Cinneide job and I think Kirby would be perfect (aside from the frees obviously).

[JOAN]

Seamus might work at full forward. Eamon is strong and also could work well. Not in a hurry to change Mid field though. I like that match up with Dara and star