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Post by buck02 on Oct 23, 2021 12:50:39 GMT
Unsurprising to see the lack of leadership from our county board. At least other counties expressed a view. I may have missed it in the last day or so but up to then Kerry had not come out and said what way our delegates would vote. Does nothing to dismiss the smoke and mirrors acquisition of the way they dealt with matters last month. It's a pity that when 80% of the inter-county players and 50% of the delegates voted for change that there was still no change.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 23, 2021 12:56:07 GMT
Proposal B got 85 votes. 83 against. 15 more would have been 60% of the total that voted.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 23, 2021 13:03:32 GMT
SPECIAL CONGRESS: Liveblog SPECIAL CONGRESS: Liveblog GAA Special Congress in Croke Park
SAT, 23 OCT, 2021 - 12:49 EOGHAN CORMICAN, DECLAN BOGUE AND COLM O'CONNOR Kerry chairman Tim Murphy has asked for voting on Proposal B to be deferred, saying it would be a “travesty” if the motion is put to the floor today and is beaten.
Murphy requested voting on Proposal B be delayed for 12 weeks to allow for a national roadshow where everyone can have their voice on the league-based championship proposal.
"Strong points have been made on both sides. To me, it is a really strong motion and has strong attributes, but I would caveat that to say that it would be a travesty today if the motion is put to the floor today and it is beaten. All the good work of the fixtures taskforce committee would go to waste.
"I do feel the motion has huge attributes. I would urge for a defined period of time to consider it. Have a roadshow, go around to the provinces. If we come back here in 12 or 13 weeks time with the same motion, we can’t say we didn’t give everyone a chance to have their say."
Earlier Tyrone's Central Council delegate Benny Hurl said to vote on Proposal B today will cause "hurt and division", both of which can be avoided by delaying a vote on Proposal B until next year's Congress where all units will have full delegations present.
The motion, if passed, will result in sweeping changes to the provincial and All-Ireland football championships.
But Hurl insisted Special Congress should not take a rushed vote on what is one "of the most monumental decisions in the association's history".
"The proposal hasn’t had the required debate. Most of the conversations have only taken place in the last number of days. There is still a lot of work remaining to do on the motion," said Hurl.
"I believe the fairest way of voting on one of the most monumental decisions in the history of the association is to have it at a full Congress. President, you have already taken off the Clár this morning a number of motions because not all those from overseas are here.
"Approving this motion or not will cause hurt and division. That hurt and division should be avoided. I haven’t met anyone who doesn’t want change. Much needed change is required, and change will come, it will come very soon.
"I have heard from other speakers that this motion has flaws, a number of flaws. If it has flaws, let’s make it good before voting on it.
I would respectfully request that we take our time, re-engage with our stakeholders, as opposed to all the 11th hour interventions that have taken place in recent days. "
Fellow Central Council delegate Niall Erskine said that the "motion should be shelved until we see the full implications of a split season."
He pointed out that attendances in the Provincial Championships would drop to pre-season competition levels.
But he reserved some clear-headed arguments, asking, “Perhaps the proposer might tell us what sport in the world takes its’ eight best teams, put them into the same group as each other and half of them will not get past the initial stage?
“Does any county here currently in their county leagues put Div 4 teams in with Div 1 teams?
"This idea that this will all be ironed out sometime in the future, the time to do it is now.
"I ask delegates to not do what they wouldn’t do in their own county.”
Earlier Cork GAA CEO Kevin O'Donovan said the provincial championships will not suffer from being disconnected from the All-Ireland series if Motion 19 is passed at Special Congress today
Some delegates expressed concerns about the impact such change would have at the provincial level but the Cork chief argued that the provincial competitions will "grow" and "evolve".
"The provinces will benefit, they will grow under this format.
"It is not the McKenna Cup in February. Competitions have to grow, evolve.
"Perfect change never comes. Change is built layer on layer on layer. Today is the first layer. Proposal B will give rights to every player. Yes, there will be fear. But are we going to build this association on fear, or hope?
"Proposal B gives and brings hope."
Cork's Central Council delegate, Tracey Kennedy, added: "This proposal is not perfect, but it is worth a try and we can learn as we go and adapt it. I would encourage delegates to make a progressive choice today."
One of the counties most used as a case study for the health or ill-health of Gaelic football was Leitrim, and their beating they took against Mayo in the Connacht Championship this year.
Their representative Declan Bohan took to the floor and noted that in dividing up ticket allocation for that game, some players' families weren't even attending that game, such was the sense of hopelessness around the fixture.
"If we don’t take the opportunity to grasp change here today, I am going to feel I let down my footballers by not backing Proposal B," he said. "This has been on the map for the last 15 months. It is now time to be brave. We accept the flaws and it is not perfect, but no matter what adaptations are made to it, it will be flawed. We are happy in Leitrim to accept this proposal with its’ flaws, because for our footballers, it gives some hope for the future."
Delegates have been debating the matter since 11.30am. Earlier four conferences of eight football championship proposal has been soundly rejected by delegates at Special Congress this morning. The motion, which proposed that one county from Ulster and Leinster would move across into Connacht, while a further two from Leinster would go into Munster to create four provinces of eight, was beaten by 138 votes to 15 (90% for, 10% against). No one spoke for or against the motion.
Offaly chairman Michael Duignan fears that many footballers 'will walk away from the intercounty game' if Motion 19 is not passed at Special Congress this afternoon.
"If we don't pass this Motion today I'd have serious concerns many of our footballers will walk away from the inter-county game. It's time for change. Today is the day to start that change. We have to be brave and I think we have to be revolutionary. We have to listen to our players. Players throughout Ireland are crying out for change. They're putting in huge time and sacrifices to play one or two championship matches in a year which isn't satisfactory. We have one of the worst training to playing ratios in world sport."
Armagh chairman Michael Savage, speaking against Proposal B, said introducing a league-based championship “will be ringing the death knell for our provincial councils”.
Savage spoke broadly along the same lines as his Ulster counterparts, Michael McGrath and Stephen Barker.
“Certainly change is needed and we in Armagh are up for change. But there are flaws in this Motion," he said. "It brings a death knell to our Provincial Councils. Putting our Championships in February and March. Makes it a trial for county players.
"Change is needed, no doubt about it. But it is too soon."
Earlier two former GAA Presidents - Sean Kelly and John Horan - spoke in favour of the motion.
Kelly said: “I am in favour, despite its’ many faults. If you stand still, you go backwards. This Motion should be trialled for a maximum of three years and then reviewed. To turn our backs on the voice of the players does not make sense to me."
“The GPA are far more credible now than they were a few years ago on issues like this.…
"They are the people who get turnstiles clicking.”
He stated that the final of the Tailteann Cup should be played at one of the ‘senior’ All-Ireland semi-finals and not the final.
“Give this a go, with the proviso that we give it a full review in three years.”
Horan backed Motion 19 and insists it should be voted on this afternoon rather than examined again by another committee.
There has been speculation that the motion would be withdrawn to allow for further deliberation but Horan rejected such calls.
He also insisted that the opportunity will be there 'if we feel we need to improve it."
Horan said: "I know people will request that I withdraw the Motion but I will not be withdrawing it. We need to debate the Motion today. This proposal is a starting point. If we feel we need to improve it, that opportunity would be there. This proposal will mean more matches for our players and a better playing to training ratio. I don't think the financial worry that's out there for people is what it's portrayed to be."
Antrim GAA Chairperson, Ciaran McCavana spoke against the motion, calling for more time to debate the proposed format.
He said: "Do not rush into change because of outside voices. We are not backward looking. We are one of the most progressive organsiations in this country if not the world. Let us come out of the pandemic and see how the Tailteann Cup fares. Let us take a bit more time and come back to this."
His Donegal counterpart Micheál McGrath echoed those sentiments:
“We will not support it under the current state,” he said. “We are accused of being too conservative and too afraid of change, but we are not – our county and our association is not afraid, providing it is the right change.”
He complimented the work of the Fixtures Taskforce, but does not believe that enough discussion has taken place.
“The collective view has not been expressed,” he said. “Let’s be patient. Let’s review and debate and discuss the merits of change. I don’t feel the merits of this motion includes all of the concerns of all the people out there. I am talking about supporters, and people in this room, people outside of the room.” He claimed to have spoken to his players and they didn’t feel it was right, asking for more inclusive talks and delving into the problems that exist. To pass it today and tweak it afterwards is not democratic enough.”
GPA CEO Tom Parsons earlier told delegates: "I believe from the bottom of my heart this proposal will spark life into Gaelic Football, All players want to play football in the summer months. We need to say stop today, not tomorrow. This is robust proposal."
When speaking in favour of Proposal B at today’s Special Congress, GPA CEO Parsons quoted a number of county football captains who are in favour of the league-based championship, including Kerry's Murphy.
“The time has come to try a new structure for our football championship,” said Murphy, according to Parsons, while Wexford’s Brian Malone was quoted as saying that “the current structure is driving players away from the game”.
Parsons said Proposal B will “spark life into Gaelic football”.
“We are asking for change. Why? Development. Competitive games develop teams. Proposal B will end mismatches.”
Clare football manager Colm Collins said the current championship structure “does not serve the majority of counties”.
"My introduction to inter-county football was the Miltown massacre (1979 Munster championship hammering by Kerry of Clare). 40 years on, those mismatches are still going on. This is a fantastic opportunity to give counties a shot in the arm.” Galway GAA called for the motion to be deferred, while Fermanagh delegate Tiernach Mahon said Proposal B will lead to Division 3 and 4 teams being banished from the All-Ieland series.
“Division 3 and Division 4 winners will be the whipping boys for the bigger teams [in the All-Ireland preliminary quarter-finals]. It will lead to the banishment of Division 3 and 4 teams from the All-Ireland series.” Under Proposal B, the Division 3 and 4 winners will play the second and third-placed teams from Division 2 in the All-Ireland preliminary quarter-finals.
Sligo chairman Sean Carroll said he supported the motion as he "didn't want to look our players in the eye after another mismatch".
He added: People need to show leadership here today. Our footballers want the opportunity to showcase their talent and play in better conditions and in front of bigger crowds. Moving competitive championship matches into the summer would be beneficial for our footballers."
This is the outline of what Motion 19 entails
Motion 19 would envisage using the current League structures as the basis for a restructured All-Ireland Senior Football Championship.
This motion propose to play the provincial championships before a league-based All-Ireland championship.
Provincial Championships The provincial championships would be round-robin competitions played February and March. You'd have a group of six teams in Connacht, a group of six teams in Munster, and then in Leinster you'd have a group of five teams and another group of six team, while in Ulster you'd have a group of four teams and a group of five teams.
In the Connacht and Munster Championships, each team would play five games. Two home games and three away games or vice versa depending on the draw. The group winners would go to the provincial final directly. The second and third placed teams would play a provincial semi-final with the winner going on to the provincial final.
In Ulster's two groups the games are also played home and away on the basis of a draw. The top two teams in each group advance to cross-over semi-finals. The winner in one group playing the runner up in another group and vice-versa. The winning teams then participate in the Ulster Final.
In Leinster, the teams in the five-team group will play four round-robin games and the teams in the six-team group will play five round-robin games. Again, home and away on the basis of a draw and the group compositions are also on the basis of a draw at the start of the year.
Then the top two teams in each group would go to crossover semi-finals with the winners going on to the Leinster Final.
Those provincial championships would be played in February and March. The provincial championships are played as stand-alone competitions and lead no further.
All-Ireland Championship The All-Ireland Championship will be played on a League basis after the provincial championships have concluded.
The structure is the same as what is currently used in the Allianz Football League, Division 1 to Division Four, and would be played between April and July.
It would comprise of four divisions, eight teams per division, with each team getting seven games. At the end of that round robin series the top five teams in Division One would qualify automatically for the All-Ireland Senior Championship quarter-finals along with the Division Two winners to make six teams. The other two teams to make the quarter-finals would come from preliminary All-Ireland quarter-finals.
Those preliminary quarterfinals would be played between the second and third place teams in Division Two, as well as the Division Three and Division Four winners. All other Division One and Division Two teams will be eliminated at this point.
As we're accustomed to in the current leagues, the bottom two teams in each division will be relegated for the following year. The top team from Division 3 will be automatically promoted each year along with the Tailteann Cup winners.
The top two teams in Division four would be promoted to Division 3 every year unless the Tailteann winners are a Division 4 team from outside the top two.
The Tailteann Cup would include New York and all Division 3 and Division 4 teams except the Division winners who progress to the preliminary quarter-finals as previously mentioned.
The Tailteann Cup would be played on a knock-out basis.
The League-based championship would begin on April 9/10 and would conclude with the All-Ireland Final on the 29th weekend of the year which in 2022 falls on July 16/17.
MORE IN THIS SECTION
Galway v Wexford - Leinster GAA Hurling Senior Championship Semi-Final Davy Fitzgerald: I thought Galway job was mine Weekend drama not confined to Congress: Five club GAA games to watch out for in the coming days Weekend drama not confined to Congress: Five club GAA games to watch out for in the coming days The Ballinamore Sean O'Heslins team prepare for the game outside as their are no dressing rooms available to club teams due to C GAA dressing rooms to reopen, water breaks to stay
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Post by thehermit on Oct 23, 2021 14:07:45 GMT
So the Super 8s are gone as well, its back to the 2002-17 system?
Looks the appetite for change now is clear and it will come, either at Congress in Feb or within another year. Everyone knows things have to change, everyone wants things to change all that's needed is for a tweak or two that allows the provincial championship have some meaning for the All Ireland and maybe gives the teams outside Division 1 more of a chance of meaningful progression.
For me, as I've said already, Championship restrucutre has to go hand in hand with readdressing the massive imbalances in funding etc. I hope to Christ that message sinks in very soon.If Dublin are still winning 9 titles a decade and Longford and Leitrim can't get enough money to allow their county teams pay for a proper S&C program what's the point of anything.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2021 14:50:07 GMT
So the Super 8s are gone as well, its back to the 2002-17 system? Looks the appetite for change now is clear and it will come, either at Congress in Feb or within another year. Everyone knows things have to change, everyone wants things to change all that's needed is for a tweak or two that allows the provincial championship have some meaning for the All Ireland and maybe gives the teams outside Division 1 more of a chance of meaningful progression. For me, as I've said already, Championship restrucutre has to go hand in hand with readdressing the massive imbalances in funding etc. I hope to Christ that message sinks in very soon.If Dublin are still winning 9 titles a decade and Longford and Leitrim can't get enough money to allow their county teams pay for a proper S&C program what's the point of anything. they also need to address the dubs in Croke Park issue along with the millions being pumped into them.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Oct 23, 2021 15:40:54 GMT
Didn't read all the articles but Tim Murphy was right re telling giving the GAA community the opportunity to study Plan B.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 23, 2021 15:43:09 GMT
So the Super 8s are gone as well, its back to the 2002-17 system? Looks the appetite for change now is clear and it will come, either at Congress in Feb or within another year. Everyone knows things have to change, everyone wants things to change all that's needed is for a tweak or two that allows the provincial championship have some meaning for the All Ireland and maybe gives the teams outside Division 1 more of a chance of meaningful progression. For me, as I've said already, Championship restrucutre has to go hand in hand with readdressing the massive imbalances in funding etc. I hope to Christ that message sinks in very soon.If Dublin are still winning 9 titles a decade and Longford and Leitrim can't get enough money to allow their county teams pay for a proper S&C program what's the point of anything. Anyone with half a brain should have been able to conclude back in 2005 that giving nearly 60% of funding to the most populous county was going to end in domination by that county. The GAA aint stupid. Whats the real agenda?
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Post by thehermit on Oct 23, 2021 15:52:23 GMT
So the Super 8s are gone as well, its back to the 2002-17 system? Looks the appetite for change now is clear and it will come, either at Congress in Feb or within another year. Everyone knows things have to change, everyone wants things to change all that's needed is for a tweak or two that allows the provincial championship have some meaning for the All Ireland and maybe gives the teams outside Division 1 more of a chance of meaningful progression. For me, as I've said already, Championship restrucutre has to go hand in hand with readdressing the massive imbalances in funding etc. I hope to Christ that message sinks in very soon.If Dublin are still winning 9 titles a decade and Longford and Leitrim can't get enough money to allow their county teams pay for a proper S&C program what's the point of anything. Anyone with half a brain should have been able to conclude back in 2005 that giving nearly 60% of funding to the most populous county was going to end in domination by that county. The GAA aint stupid. Whats the real agenda? €€€€€€€€€€€€
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Post by onlykerry on Oct 23, 2021 16:33:52 GMT
What is clear from today is that change to the championship structure is coming - hopefully they don't delay too long in refining and improving the new structure.
Personally I am happy that Plan B as proposed has not been adopted - accepting it as presented would have delayed the delivery of a fit for purpose structure. For over 100 years (up to 2000) the championship structure (1 undefeated team became champions) was simple and yielded an average of 8 different winners of the Sam Maguire every 20 years. In the past 20 the qualifiers and more recently the top 8 round robin were introduced. I don't want an endless restructuring process with changes every few years - lets get it right and meet the needs of players, administrators and fans with a properly thought out structure.
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Post by onlykerry on Oct 23, 2021 17:03:36 GMT
For those curious about the decision makers Those able to vote are as follows Counties - 86 votes with each county allocated between 2 and 5 votes depending on number of clubs Central Council - 52 votes and I presume this includes provincial delegates Overseas associations - 38 votes even though only 2 participate in the championship Past Presidents - 7
Eligible electorate 183
85 in favour and 83 against means 15 abstentions
Within the county structure Cork and Dublin have 5 votes, Galway, Limerick, Tipp & Kerry have 4 with the remainder either 2 or 3
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Post by royalkerryfan on Oct 23, 2021 21:02:47 GMT
Disappointed by todays result,
The one thing that can't be said anymore is Ulster teams giving out about Kerry and Dublins easy route to the all ireland series. You had you chance to change it.
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exiled
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Post by exiled on Oct 23, 2021 22:33:02 GMT
Disappointed by todays result, The one thing that can't be said anymore is Ulster teams giving out about Kerry and Dublins easy route to the all ireland series. You had you chance to change it. Why would they vote to get rid of the only serious provincial championship without getting anything in return. The proposal needs more tuning.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2021 22:35:54 GMT
Disappointed by todays result, The one thing that can't be said anymore is Ulster teams giving out about Kerry and Dublins easy route to the all ireland series. You had you chance to change it. Agreed. Kerry also have no right to complain about the lack of competitive games in Munster leaving them ill prepared for the likes of Tyrone
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exiled
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Post by exiled on Oct 23, 2021 22:38:01 GMT
Anyone with half a brain should have been able to conclude back in 2005 that giving nearly 60% of funding to the most populous county was going to end in domination by that county. The GAA aint stupid. Whats the real agenda? €€€€€€€€€€€€ There has to be a thorough review of how Dublin received the imbalance in funding. Surely it's the weaker counties that need the funding..
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 23, 2021 22:44:07 GMT
Disappointed by todays result, The one thing that can't be said anymore is Ulster teams giving out about Kerry and Dublins easy route to the all ireland series. You had you chance to change it. Agreed. Kerry also have no right to complain about the lack of competitive games in Munster leaving them ill prepared for the likes of Tyrone Did Dublin vote for B.
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Post by royalkerryfan on Oct 23, 2021 22:59:02 GMT
Disappointed by todays result, The one thing that can't be said anymore is Ulster teams giving out about Kerry and Dublins easy route to the all ireland series. You had you chance to change it. Why would they vote to get rid of the only serious provincial championship without getting anything in return. The proposal needs more tuning. Yes another committee and another review. They could have voted in the interest of the game rather than their own interests. It wasn't perfect but it was a start instead we are back with mismatch games and no competive games until semi finals. I'm not impressed with Kerrys approach here at all, going in with no input or opinion only we will wait to see what said and make our minds up then. Not good enough in my opinion.
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mike70
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Post by mike70 on Oct 24, 2021 7:49:36 GMT
I am very disappointed about the committee that were tasked to bring solutions to the table, they came back with poorly thought through plans, they should have came up with 2 solid plans, one that maintained the provisional finals with some mods but similar to existing super 8s and a better plan similar to plan B, without the holes in it, instead we get a half baked effort. IMO
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 24, 2021 7:52:15 GMT
Irish Times
Despite the weekend setback, top GAA officials remain hopeful that reform of the football championship is on the way with a new model likely to be trialled in 2023.
After the failure of the Fixtures Calendar Task Force proposal at Saturday’s special congress in Croke Park, both the GAA president and director general, who had supported the proposal in motion 19 for a league-based championship, confirmed at a post-congress briefing that there would be new proposals on the way.
Both Larry McCarthy and Tom Ryan were asked would a new championship structure be ready to implement the year after next.
“I’m hopeful,” said the president. “I don’t know what the timing officially is in terms of getting stuff through. I’m presuming that would have to mean bringing something to congress in 2022.
“I think every one of the people who spoke against it prefaced their remarks by saying we want change; we just don’t like this change. So even if they voted against it, and we got 50.6 per cent in terms of people looking for change, that would appear to me to be a huge mandate to push on.”
Ryan added: “It’s a challenge; there’s no point saying otherwise but is it possible to do? Of course it is. As we went through this process there were other options considered as part of it. There are plenty of other permutations but it’s not quite the same as going back to a blank sheet of paper. There’s still a huge amount of value in all of the work and thought went into it.”
In proposing motion 19 earlier in the day, former president John Horan had suggested that the league-based championship not come into effect until a two-year trial in 2023 so next year was always likely to be a holding operation, especially given the new Tier 2 Tailteann Cup and the introduction of a split season that will see All-Irelands concluded by the end of July.
The debate was notable for the near unanimity of speakers that change was needed – even those who disagreed with motion 19 – and the major reservations expressed about the marginalisation of the provincial championships, especially from Ulster delegates. Eight of the province’s nine counties spoke and voted against the motion.
McCarthy was asked did that mean that the role of the provincial championships would have to be reassessed.
“If you think about the eight or nine people who spoke against it all essentially supported their own provincial championship. So I think that would suggest it has to have a central role somehow.
“Don’t ask me what that role is. I guess one of the suggestions floated early was that there should be some link between the proposed provincial championship and back into All-Ireland championship in the summer. I must say I don’t know how you’d do that but that seems to be a desire.”
The most ardent proponents of motion 19 were the Gaelic Players’ Association. Their chief executive Tom Parsons, who had spoken in favour during the debate, was asked at the organisation’s own briefing for his reaction.
“Obviously disappointed and a lot of players will be disappointed. We started this campaign with a lot of sentiments in October that this was a dead duck and that it will never get passed. We won a majority today, 50.6 per cent, didn’t get 60 per cent.
“I’m hugely proud of the hundreds of hours that players have put in to get their voices heard and have done so with their colleagues and have stood very strong for change.
“Another aspect is, absolutely everybody who spoke for or against mentioned the word change and there is an acceptance that the status quo is broken.”
Asked would there be consequences for the views of the players being overlooked, Parsons pointed out that there had been a majority of delegates supporting the motion but said that failure to change by 2023 would be unacceptable.
“We’ll consult with players but there’s no doubt about it that a lot of delegates did listen to players. They came up and spoke passionately about change and referenced players again and again. I believe the dial over the last month because of players and facilitation of the debate by the media, I firmly believe the dial will shift significantly.
“Personally, I wouldn’t accept it’s not on the table for February. I expect when we consult with our players they won’t accept that something is not on the table in February and ready to be implemented in 2023.”
Clarifying, he acknowledged that a special congress in a year’s time might also fulfil that requirement.
“Maybe, yeah. Whatever mechanism is needed to ensure we get something in place for 2023.”
GPA executive co-chair Maria Kinsella summarised.
“What hasn’t changed today is the players’ desire for change. They have been very vocal over the last number of weeks for it. That hasn’t changed. The outcome of Proposal B failing, it is now up to ourselves to consult with the players and for all of the Gaelic family to make this a reality.”
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 24, 2021 9:51:20 GMT
Seán Kelly’s plan should be template for new vision that maintains vibrant provincial championships Joe Brolly
Proposal A to change the All-Ireland football championship was hopeless. So hopeless that it is hard to avoid the suspicion it was included only to encourage delegates to go for Proposal B.
As it turns out, the second option was well off the 60 per cent of votes needed, which is for the better. There is no justification for the destruction of the provincial championships, particularly in Ulster and Connacht.
More than that, there is absolutely no need to destroy them. Proposal B was rejected because although they were nominally retained, in truth it relegated them to the McKenna Cup and the FBD League.
In Ulster, our foremost desire is to be Ulster champions. In Connacht, Roscommon, Mayo and Galway can win it in any given year. With the second option, the provincial championships would have been demoted to a stand-alone tournament to start the season, with no incentive for winning.
This is mystifying, since the Seán Kelly/Jim McGuinness proposal contained a simple formula to do all the things that Proposal B sought to achieve (the league being the primary source for Sam Maguire seeding) while guaranteeing that vibrant provincial championships would continue (at least in Ulster and Connacht) by giving the winners automatic seeding in the top 16. So, in 2020, Cavan would have been included. In 2019, Roscommon.
I do not understand why the Kelly/McGuinness plan was not on the agenda. Had it been, it would most certainly have been passed.
The reason Proposal B failed, was because it effectively removed the provincial championships. Why on earth would the provincial delegates, the Ulster counties or Connacht counties vote for it? Also, as a rule of thumb, if the GPA is in favour of something, it should be rejected, as they are an elitist Dublin-centric organisation with zero interest in the ideals of the GAA.
We are unique. Because of our club and county allegiances and our amateur status, we cannot create an equal championship. The only way to do this would be to redraw the county boundaries or to create super teams in each province where the best players from each county would be chosen for All-Star teams.
Since this is not possible in our culture, we must concentrate on a core principle of respect for every county, allowing their players and communities to feel that they are a valuable and cherished part of the football championship. The Kelly plan achieves this, since it affords every county its proper respect.
It links the league, provincial championships, and All-Ireland series, incentivises every game, and establishes a serious second tier All-Ireland. The crucial thing is that there must be guarantees written into the proposal that the second tier will be afforded exactly the same respect as the Sam Maguire.
From the semi-final stage onwards, the Tier 1 and Tier 2 games would be played at Croke Park on the same day, one after the other. The finals would both be played on All-Ireland finals day, one at 2pm, the other at 4pm. The finalists in both tiers would be treated exactly the same, with the same ticket allocations, the same perks, the same team holidays afterwards. The prize of an All-Ireland final in front of 82,000 people, on live telly, for the Tier 2 finalists is enough to set any young man’s pulse racing.
I would also have an All-Star team for each tier, both chosen at the same glitzy gala, both teams travelling abroad for the annual exhibition games and boozy holiday. We need to stop treating the smaller counties as second class citizens, mere cannon fodder for the Dubs and Kerry and Mayo.
The GAA should now focus on the Kelly plan, using it as the basic template and making tweaks that could improve it. The options put forward to Congress yesterday were in turn useless and not bad. We can do a lot better than not bad. The Kelly plan is a lot better. Nothing radical happens in the GAA until it is voted down at least once. After yesterday, we know exactly what needs to be done. After 130 years, we can wait another year or two to do it right.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 24, 2021 9:55:19 GMT
The change when it comes could be along the lines of what Sean Kelly proposed. The devil will be in the detail. Will the league start after the provincial championship.
If Sean Kellys proposal was in place in 2021. would the provincial winners Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone and Mayo pull their punches in the league games as they will be through anyway to the All Ireland series.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 24, 2021 19:00:28 GMT
Congress battle was lost but the war is only just beginning Colm O'Rourke
Automatic entry for provincial winners into the All-Ireland quarter-finals an obvious fix
e October 24 2021 02:30 AM
So the ship sails on. When is a majority for change not a majority? When it is the GAA. The motion to change the football championship was carried but not by a sufficient margin.
The outcome can be looked on in two ways: As a great setback or a spur to embolden those in power to seek the change which the masses want. I was in this position 20 years ago when I was part of a committee which brought in a very radical proposal for change which was defeated, but then we were asked to have another go. The present championship structure with a back door emerged. At the time, I hoped it would be improved within a few years, but we are still waiting and now must wait further.
One of the more amusing aspects of this great debate is the number of experts who have emerged with better systems than the one proposed. Anything other than what was being voted on. Somebody on the committee should have reminded them that they had their chance. The review taskforce looked for submissions — they were not some secret organisation who landed this on everyone’s doorstep with a take it or leave it sticker attached.
It was a complete and total waste of time putting anything else forward at this stage. You either agreed or you didn’t. At least I put my proposals forward and although I would not be in full agreement with these defeated changes, I recognise that they represent progress. The imbalances in so many ways in the GAA at present are only going to get worse and no minor tinkering with a championship structure will change that. Money and population and playing rules all need close examination. A much simpler part to change is the structure of competitions.
One thing many of the critics of Proposal B agreed on was that it was wrong that a team who finished sixth in the top division of the league system would not qualify for the knock-out stages, while those in lower divisions would. The same, of course, would apply for the counties finishing seventh and eight and who would be relegated. This should be called the loser’s charter. If you end up sixth in your division, the likelihood is that you would have lost or drawn four or five games. Was there not enough chances in that to progress?
It would be the same thing as a club complaining that they did not qualify for the knock-out stages of their championship, while teams from weaker groups got through. If you play seven games in the first division and can’t finish in the top five, you should not be complaining.
The most serious argument against the motion from a number of delegates was that it was flawed. As if the system that we have is in some way perfect. Even more strange was the contribution from Central Council delegate Niall Erskine who asked would any county allow a Division 4 team in with a Division 1 team. The answer to that is we are doing it already with what is called the provincial championship. Think Mayo and Leitrim.
The debate played out as predicted. The Ulster counties rallying around each other like vultures over a carcase. Tiernach Mahon from Fermanagh thought the motion had the potential to destroy the hopes, dreams and ambitions of Fermanagh people. No, Tiernach, the Ulster championship has done that. A new system would give hope to your players. That was the very loudly proclaimed view from players across the country.
It is not as if I don’t value the provincial system and it was still going to be in existence in a different way. I was fortunate to be on a Meath team who won five Leinster titles and I would not give any of them away, but there is a bigger picture which you see more clearly as you get older. Kicking a small dog all the time is to nobody’s benefit. To their credit, many weaker counties found their voice in this debate and won’t be silenced now. It is their organisation, too.
Some, however, put self-interest before the greater good. Everyone knows that Ulster counties think their championship is sacred but the other provinces are a bit of a joke. The most obvious here to just look out for themselves were Galway, Mayo and Kerry. They have an easy route through Connacht and Munster, but they could have stood with their weaker friends in their time of need.
The contribution of Brian McAvoy from the Ulster Council secretary in advance of the debate was intemperate. Mentioning the word Cromwell in the motion about shifting counties to other provinces was unbecoming, while saying that Proposal B was one of the worst ever was insulting to some good people who worked hard on this. Those sort of things don’t get forgotten around the corridors of Croke Park.
Many others have emerged with a lot of credit. The committee which put this together, and others like John Horan, Larry McCarthy and Tom Ryan, who demonstrated leadership when it was needed. And Kevin O Donovan from Cork showed that he is a very able administrator. Cork is in good hands.
This is a long war and the first battle has been lost. The next one is not far away. It should come next February. The most obvious addition to this motion would be to give automatic entry to the provincial winners into the All-Ireland quarter-finals, which would protect the great jewel of many people’s eyes. It would make Division 1 less competitive as a result, but sometimes needs must.
If this was a game, it would be called a draw, but the train has left the station on change. Now it is just a question of where it ends up. Hopefully Larry McCarthy has a new driver waiting to go.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 25, 2021 8:39:22 GMT
Agreed. Kerry also have no right to complain about the lack of competitive games in Munster leaving them ill prepared for the likes of Tyrone Did Dublin vote for B. Dublin didnt speak on the motion and no one knows how Dublin delegates voted per todays indo.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 25, 2021 8:44:13 GMT
MON, 25 OCT, 2021 - 06:00 EOGHAN CORMICAN
Kerry chairman Tim Murphy is “very confident” a reworked Proposal B that addresses the concerns raised at Special Congress will receive 60% backing at Congress 2022 next February.
Murphy, no more than Gaelic Players Association (GPA) CEO Tom Parsons, believes the four months between now and Congress 2022 is sufficient time to iron out the “anomalies” within Proposal B in order to have a fresh vote on football championship reform in the spring.
Meeting this timeline will be “a challenge”, GAA director general Tom Ryan has warned, with president Larry McCarthy casting further doubt on a February vote when remarking in the aftermath of Saturday’s failed attempt at change that “I’m not so sure we’ll have something for February”.
In the event of no vote taking place at annual Congress next spring, a third Special Congress in three years is inevitable in 12 months time given Ryan’s hope of having a new football format approved for implementation in 2023.
Kerry chairman Murphy would like to see a national roadshow take place in the coming weeks to strengthen Proposal B ahead of Congress 2022, including direct input from inter-county players in amending the proposal.
Mayo chairman Liam Moffatt, when opposing the motion at Special Congress, said “it is very difficult to get away from a team sixth in Division 1 denied the chance to compete in the All-Ireland series, whereas a team three divisions below them is given that chance”.
Speaking to the Irish Examiner after Proposal B received 50.6% of the vote, short of the required 60%, Murphy — who had earlier called for the vote to be deferred — also raised objections at the sixth-placed team in Division 1 not being accommodated in the All-Ireland series.
“If you go back to 2013, 2014, and 2015, and we won the All-Ireland in 2014, if that scenario was present in those three years, Kerry wouldn’t have progressed into the All-Ireland series,” the Kerry chairman pointed out. “It is unfair on the top counties in Division 1 not to get the opportunity to progress, but an accommodation can certainly be arrived at to allay those concerns and address the Division 3 and 4 counties, as well.
“The current system is not working. We all accept that. Proposal B has huge merits but many counties had concerns they felt weren’t addressed. Hopefully, between here and February, the taskforce go ahead and address those concerns, and I’d be very confident that that motion, in a remodelled version, would get support then.
Considering Proposal B was just 16 votes shy of 60% support on Saturday, tweaking the proposed format so that the sixth-placed Division 1 county is included in the championship’s knockout stages would certainly help close the gap to the magic number needed.
A further area of focus in the reworking of the proposal will be the role of provincial championships and their link to the All-Ireland series, a chief concern for Ulster counties. But despite all bar Down of the nine Ulster counties voicing their opposition to Proposal B on Saturday, the future success of a revised Proposal B is not dependent on Ulster support given these eight counties accounted for less than one-third of all No votes cast (27 out of 83).
Parsons said it is the responsibility of McCarthy and Ryan to convince Ulster counties that the provincial competitions will not be left behind in a league-based championship.
And although Parsons is adamant a league-based championship must remain at the core of football championship change, both he and the GAA president accept that the role of provincial championships will have to be revisited ahead of the next vote.
“If you think about the eight or nine people who spoke against it, all essentially supported their own provincial championship,” said McCarthy. “I think that would suggest (the provincial championships) has to have a central role somehow.”
Parsons stated his refusal to accept any attempts to delay a fresh vote beyond February.
“Don’t tell me we can’t come to next February.
“Every year missed is another year gone for the development of footballers and potentially another year where players in lower counties decide to opt out because they don’t see a pathway to success.”
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 25, 2021 8:46:41 GMT
Éamonn Fitzmaurice: GAA has selfishly prioritised provincial championships that are a dead duck
MON, 25 OCT, 2021 - 06:00 Eamonn Fitzmaurice Éamonn Fitzmaurice
“My own feeling would be that once you go down the road of change, whatever happens in two years’ time, it’s highly unlikely we’ll be back to where you are now.”
— Paraic Duffy on the introduction of the Super 8s in February 2017.
My initial feeling on Saturday afternoon as news emerged of a majority voting for Proposal B but it’s ultimate failure was one of disappointment and frustration, if not surprise. It is an opportunity missed.
Regardless of which spectrum I viewed it through, I felt Proposal B had way more positives than negatives.
Simple enough tweaks could solve some of the issues and anomalies that have been flagged in recent weeks.
Regardless of which cap I was wearing as I thought it through, be it from a club perspective, from the Kerry angle, from the general wellbeing of football point of view, from the lower ranked counties’ perspective or from a supporters’ viewpoint; it was progress, it was positive, and as a starting point it should have been embraced.
Instead, we are reverting to a system that was officially deemed broken over four years ago, and was dysfunctional for long before that. In fact delegates were so anxious for change in 2017 that the Super 8s was heralded in with 76% of the vote. This time round, the suits, as epitomised by Michael Reynolds this week, selfishly prioritised the provincial championships that are a dead duck.
Reynolds was defending the indefensible in trying to defend the Leinster Championship. Yes I know Ulster is a decent championship and always has been and its importance, tradition, and relevance in Ulster is huge. One decent provincial championship does not save the football championship in general though.
Interestingly, in 137 years of the association Ulster counties have won a combined total of 18 All-Irelands, which considering the luminaries of the game that have plied their trade up there is hardly groundbreaking stuff. While accepting the historical challenges faced, maybe broadening the horizons would serve their counties and teams better in the long run.
There has been a lot of guff about the healthy debate that was had around this issue and that change is coming. However, we are notoriously slow to change things within the GAA. It took a global pandemic to see the split season implemented. Without the intervention of Covid-19 I doubt that would have happened either.
While we can all be so proud of our unique community-based organisation and all that is good about it, unfortunately within the GAA there can be a selfish myopia that means people only look directly at what is affecting themselves, be that the team they are involved with, the club or county they are from or, in this case, their provincial championship.
We are all guilty of it. Visionaries with an unbiased overview are few and far between. Sometimes a leap of faith is required and the consequences might surprise even the likes of Michael Reynolds and Brian McAvoy of Ulster.
The qualifiers were initially introduced at a Special Congress in October 2000. Speaking at that Special Congress, Jack Mahon, Galway PRO and himself an All-Ireland medal winner, said that he felt he was “standing in the * against a torrent” and emphasised his belief in the straight knockout format.
“When you win, you win and when you lose, you lose.”
I am sure the following September the irony wasn’t lost on Jack and he was happy to admit he was wrong as Gary Fahey lifted Sam Maguire, Galway having emerged as champions via the inaugural qualifiers.
This week I heard some of delegates that had voting rights at the Special Congress speaking about the proposals. Their understanding of the proposals was sketchy at best. I found it amazing that after all the debate that delegates didn’t understand the proposals inside out. The secret ballot is also an insult to all Gaels. For such an important motion every county and every club should know how their delegates voted. Delegates should have the courage of their conventions and hiding behind a secret ballot is nonsense. Interestingly, a CPA motion was introduced at Congress in 2018 to have the secret ballot removed for votes of this magnitude but unsurprisingly it was roundly defeated, by... yes a secret ballot.
I think we all except that there is no perfect solution and those waiting for that are living in cloud cuckoo land.
The three biggest issues that seemed to spook delegates was the de-coupling of the provincial championships from the All-Ireland series and the legitimate worry about the potential devaluing of them; the fate of the bottom three teams in Division 1; and the winners of Division 3 and 4 being admitted to the knockout stages of the Sam Maguire competition.
A few simple solutions to link the provincial championships to the All-Ireland series and to maintain their status and importance would be as follows:
Firstly, as there are always four home and three away games in the league, the provincial champions could be awarded the extra home game for the league championship.
Even if all four champions came from Division 1 this would still work. A second solution would be for the provincial champions to be kept apart at All-Ireland quarter final stage and to be guaranteed a home All-Ireland quarter-final should they get there.
Finally, provincial champions could be straight through to the All-Ireland quarter-final, but this would probably significantly compromise Division 1 of the league championship and could possibly create more problems that it would solve.
With regard to the three teams finishing in sixth, seventh, and eighth position in Division 1 being out of the championship, in many ways my attitude would be tough luck and see you next year.
They have had seven championship matches and haven’t earned a position in the top five. They don’t deserve to advance and are unlikely to win the All-Ireland anyway if their form is as patchy as that.
I have seen it written that Kerry wouldn’t have advanced in 2014 based on the league standings as we finished sixth. That is comparing apples to oranges. In 2014 Kerry were unbeaten in the championship and won the All-Ireland. Playing in the league with half a squad and with different priorities is very different to being locked and loaded for championship football.
If it was really felt that the teams in sixth, seventh, and eighth of Division 1 should be afforded another opportunity, they could play off against the teams emerging from Division 2, 3, and 4.
Finally to the argument that Division 3 and 4 teams will be playing Division 1 teams in the Sam Maguire competition and that this will result in lopsided contests. Too often, this happens annually in the provincial championships and is one of the reasons so many people are anxious for change. Also, is it not important when starting out in the championship to give every team the chance (however remote that chance) to win Sam Maguire and to avoid exclusion?
I feel that these issues could have all been ironed out but I also think the GAA dropped the ball by not organising a live television debate and by not reassuring the provincial councils around funding. If Kevin O’Donavan had debated against Michael Reynolds or Brian McAvoy I feel the Cork man would have won plenty more people over to the potential of Proposal B and to the exciting route our championship could have gone down.
It’s not all doom and gloom though. I am an optimist at heart and would hope that this will be revisited immediately and in time for the February congress. Larry McCarthy seemed to suggest as much afterwards. I got the impression he has something up his sleeve and we will hear about this sooner rather than later. When 80% of the players, half of the delegates at Congress, as well as many many people nationally including myself want to see change, they will realise they have to keep searching for that solution.
In the short term I think the GAA really needs to get the Tailteann Cup right for the 2022 season. If that takes off as it should and is a positive experience for the supporters and players of the participating counties it will be huge.
For it to succeed as I have highlighted in these pages previously it has to be marketed properly to ensure it has the profile it deserves. Live television will need to be a given as will the games being played on the big days as curtain raisers to matches in the Sam Maguire competition.
I also feel the Tailteann Cup final has to be played on the day of the All-Ireland final. All-Ireland final day is an exclusive and special day and if we are serious about the secondary competition we have to give it an appropriate stage. I would have the minors first, the Tailteann Cup second, and the Sam Maguire decider third.
Croke Park is well capable of taking three games in a day, especially at the height of summer. I understand ticket-wise this will be challenging and if it proved unmanageable as a compromise we could have a festival of football on All-Ireland weekend with a double header featuring the minors and the U20s on Saturday evening in Croke Park, and the senior deciders on Sunday. Finally, there will have to be an All-Star team for the Tailteann Cup teams and a significant holiday for the winning team also.
The split season and Tailteann Cup are early indicators of what is possible but they should be the end of the beginning rather than the beginning of the end when it comes to reforming our championships.
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Post by onlykerry on Oct 25, 2021 8:54:01 GMT
The change when it comes could be along the lines of what Sean Kelly proposed. The devil will be in the detail. Will the league start after the provincial championship. If Sean Kellys proposal was in place in 2021. would the provincial winners Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone and Mayo pull their punches in the league games as they will be through anyway to the All Ireland series. Not if you take a different angle to the Provincials - the best place team in each Provincial championship that does not qualify for the senior AI from their league position get the provincial place. This could make the provincials a real target for lower division teams who want a place at the top table and could spice them up. It also ensures that every team in the country has a crack at the senior AI every year. Top 12 from the league plus the four Provincial qualifiers play in the AI with the remaining teams in the Tailteann.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 25, 2021 9:32:50 GMT
The change when it comes could be along the lines of what Sean Kelly proposed. The devil will be in the detail. Will the league start after the provincial championship. If Sean Kellys proposal was in place in 2021. would the provincial winners Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone and Mayo pull their punches in the league games as they will be through anyway to the All Ireland series. Not if you take a different angle to the Provincials - the best place team in each Provincial championship that does not qualify for the senior AI from their league position get the provincial place. This could make the provincials a real target for lower division teams who want a place at the top table and could spice them up. It also ensures that every team in the country has a crack at the senior AI every year. Top 12 from the league plus the four Provincial qualifiers play in the AI with the remaining teams in the Tailteann. So you envisage the league being run off first i assume If Kerry come high enough in the league to make the cut for the championship wouldnt they put out the B team in the Munster championship to give all panelists a run out
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Post by onlykerry on Oct 25, 2021 9:43:46 GMT
Not if you take a different angle to the Provincials - the best place team in each Provincial championship that does not qualify for the senior AI from their league position get the provincial place. This could make the provincials a real target for lower division teams who want a place at the top table and could spice them up. It also ensures that every team in the country has a crack at the senior AI every year. Top 12 from the league plus the four Provincial qualifiers play in the AI with the remaining teams in the Tailteann. So you envisage the league being run off first i assume If Kerry come high enough in the league to make the cut for the championship wouldnt they put out the B team in the Munster championship to give all panelists a run out The devil is always in the detail - If league is run off first there is a risk that winning the Provincial competition is not a high priority for some, this opens the door for others to win a competition and provide incentive for lower ranked teams to have a real cut at the Provincial competition as a stepping stone to greater things. If run in tandem it may avoid this but this may be a challenge logistically.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 25, 2021 10:34:22 GMT
So you envisage the league being run off first i assume If Kerry come high enough in the league to make the cut for the championship wouldnt they put out the B team in the Munster championship to give all panelists a run out The devil is always in the detail - If league is run off first there is a risk that winning the Provincial competition is not a high priority for some, this opens the door for others to win a competition and provide incentive for lower ranked teams to have a real cut at the Provincial competition as a stepping stone to greater things. If run in tandem it may avoid this but this may be a challenge logistically. How is your top 12 from the league arrived at again
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2021 10:42:42 GMT
Dublin didnt speak on the motion and no one knows how Dublin delegates voted per todays indo. Incredible and depressing that Dublin and Kerry have acted in this manner. You have to admire the Ulster counties and the courage of their convictions.
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Post by onlykerry on Oct 25, 2021 12:28:56 GMT
The devil is always in the detail - If league is run off first there is a risk that winning the Provincial competition is not a high priority for some, this opens the door for others to win a competition and provide incentive for lower ranked teams to have a real cut at the Provincial competition as a stepping stone to greater things. If run in tandem it may avoid this but this may be a challenge logistically. How is your top 12 from the league arrived at again Division 1 plus top 4 in Division 2. That gives two sixteens for the two championships - then either straight knock out or if time permits and the appetite is there 4 groups of 4 for a round robin followed by either a top 8 or top 4 into knockouts. All depends on the objectives (revenue, TV, excitement etc) and time available.
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