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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 1, 2016 14:40:40 GMT
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 1, 2016 15:16:46 GMT
A very good piece that, I would agree with almost all of it. As devil's advocate I'll point out two things - Paul shouldn't label the public as "lapping it up like sheep", (unless I read that wrong?), and I think that Brolly does genuinely believe on some level that he's doing the right thing by using his position to highlight certain things like player-burnout etc. Also Dermot says there about Brolly not saying the same thing about Barton. Well Brolly certainly criticised Derry's current/recent approach very harshly both this year and last. IN fact he criticises the Derry approach in last sunday's program more than once, very harshly. I think he even said, "Derry are worse".
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kot
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Post by kot on Jun 1, 2016 15:33:45 GMT
Jesus he was an arsehole even all the way back then!
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 1, 2016 15:51:09 GMT
Saying geezer hasnt a clue is as ridiculous as saying he was a guru. Maybe getting kildare so close to the 2010 final and pushing Donegal all the way in 2011 were greater achievements than any of pillars given the limitations of his squad. One great forward like Bernard and Stevie and maybe he would have a clue. Bernard was taken off in the 2007 semi-final just when Dublin needed him. Good man pillar. Fair points Mick. Nobody's claiming PC didn't make mistakes, I actually feel his reputation has ended up very rubbished, somewhat unfairly because of the 2006 Semi shenanigans & disastrous defeat (players switching off, and lack of defensive nous on Pillar's, and the players' part), and the Tyrone defeat in 2008. And because of the subsequent successful period straight after his tenure. These things are all true but as Skyblue says, he came in at a very low point, when an even worse period in the wilderness beckoned (hard to describe how bad things became under Tommy Lyons by 2004), we had lost to Westmeath for the first time ever, and Laois for the first time in a very long time. We were looking flakey & disorganised. At that point Laois, with alot of underrage success as a basis, a Leinster title won, and a Leinster defeat the previous year to ground them, and the greatest manager in the history of football at the helm, were formidable opposition and looking set for a period as Leinster kingpins. Micko must have thought so too. Laois were favourites in 2005 and looked to have the game won in the closing stages. But Pillar had produced a team of hard work, passion, pride and some nerve, who had come through some hard battles on the way to the final, and it was nerve and determination alone that carried them to that Leinster title over Laois by one point. People might laugh about Leinster competition these days but back then it was a huge thing still. And another thing that PC can't be rubbished about, his teams played open, attacking football that was great to watch. And playing that way, for all his faults, and for all the deficits of his team Vs Tyrone in 2005, they pushed Tyrone to the very pin of their collars. Some rank bad luck in the replay allowed the gap open between them in the end. And as mentioned above, more or less the same team pushed a truly great Kerry team all the way in a top-intensity All-I semi-final in 2007. IMO PC layed good foundations for the current era, behind the scenes and in his team selections and in many ways that can go unnoticed to the casual follower he did the right things and mostly got the best out of his squad. He didn't have the riches that came after and he didn't get the chance for his team to play against anything other than great teams at the peak of their powers, like Gilroy did in 2010 & 2011. I think his biggest mistake, if it was so (a mistake of conditioning/training?) was 2008. Or maybe Tyrone had just moved on in the preparation in a way that nobody could have forseen. And they had the advantage of the very long grass of 2 years in the wilderness and no great impression earlier in 2008. 2009 was Gilroy & Whelan, and by the end of June 2010 all that Gilroy had achieved was a Leinster that Kildare threw away (was Geeser the coach then?), an unmerciful hammering against Kerry (admittedly also coming out of the longest grass seen outside of Open Championship links golf courses in wet summers), and very luckily pulling back a 10-point deficit to Wexford before shipping 5 goals to a mediocre Meath team. Would Pillar have been given the benefit of the doubt that G&W were?
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 1, 2016 15:55:28 GMT
I don’t think McGeeney’s credentials as a manager is the issue here. The worst performance I have seen for a long time in a provincial championship was Joe’s very own county - Derry - against Tyrone a couple of weeks ago. They didn’t have a plan, didn’t have any spirit and were very poorly prepared. Who was the manager? None other than Joe’s team mate from 1993 – Damian Barton. Not a word from Joe. The silence was deafening. I've said this elsewhere, Brolly was scathing of Derry both last week, in another interview recently, and last year. He didn't attack Barton personally/directly but the inferance was clear
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 1, 2016 15:59:30 GMT
Cavan are not getting enough credit. They put huge work over the last ten years and won a few u21 in Ulster. They are better than Armagh now because they have a greater number of good players coming through
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 1, 2016 16:04:06 GMT
Johnny Doyle was kildares best forward by a mile but not in the league of hooch, canavan, Bernard, Joyce, Stevie McDonnell. I threw pillar in to get you to reconsider your comment that geezer was and is clueless. Neither had great panels or forwards especially so really then it's a question of did he bring them as far as he could. Both probably did. I think JD as an out and out forward, before he started to be used very deep as playmaker, was a great forward. Hard to know just how good given he didn't have alot of talent to help him, but he had pretty much everything. This discussion brings me to another point, people keep talking about Geeser as Kildare manager in isolation. For a while he had Paul Grimley as coach didn't he? And then another really top coach? Grimley was renowned as a large part of the Armagh success in the late 90s/early 00s. So as somebody else said, it could be argued what Kildare did manage to do (not one Leinster title) under Geeser says only this much about Geeser, that he can get a team incredibly fit & driven (though even the latter bit is now very much in question). And he got teams to buy into the 'cult' thing. Which I've always said, in the less than very short term doesn't seem to be a good thing. And some people cite Kildare's struggles since Geeser (in fact they started while he was still there) as being down to his loss, I would argue they are as much down to the hangover from his approach
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 1, 2016 16:05:47 GMT
The only way was up after Tommy. Would Dublin have done better if geezer replaced Tommy Lyons....
I always felt that geezer lacked something in the offensive side of things but maybe he never managed a side with enough natural forwards....the sort that have been growing on trees in Dublin over the past five years
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 1, 2016 16:12:06 GMT
Cavan are not getting enough credit. They put huge work over the last ten years and won a few u21 in Ulster. They are better than Armagh now because they have a greater number of good players coming through I think Cavan have been talked up quite a bit the last few years. It's not that Cavan winning was a surprise at all (they were favourites Vs Armagh last year), it was Armagh's performance, they seem to have gone backwards.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 1, 2016 16:15:48 GMT
The only way was up after Tommy. Would Dublin have done better if geezer replaced Tommy Lyons.... I always felt that geezer lacked something in the offensive side of things but maybe he never managed a side with enough natural forwards....the sort that have been growing on trees in Dublin over the past five years PC didn't have much more than Geeser 2005-2008, but his team won 4 Leinsters. Geeser's team won none. Kildare Vs Donegal (2011?) was nothing to do with forwards, Kildare led by 3 in extra time but didn't keep possession, and didn't defend well enough
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Post by yourholiness on Jun 1, 2016 20:54:04 GMT
Jesus I think everyone is being a bit over sensitive about JB's comments . You'd tire of the platitudes and the euphemisms for saying that teams are playing with no discernible plan. I think Kieran came in for the wrath of Joe because of the fact that he asks a great deal of players, to the point of placing pressure on county boards and clubs and to what end ? No tangible progress . Ok he could have said it in more couched and acceptable terms but are we really that easily offended ?
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Post by Dermot on Jun 2, 2016 12:01:38 GMT
Jesus he was an arsehole even all the way back then! A complete Buffoon He looks like an insecure wee man trying to bolster himself up .. just the same today !!
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Post by Dermot on Jun 2, 2016 12:06:07 GMT
A very good piece that, I would agree with almost all of it. As devil's advocate I'll point out two things - Paul shouldn't label the public as "lapping it up like sheep", (unless I read that wrong?), and I think that Brolly does genuinely believe on some level that he's doing the right thing by using his position to highlight certain things like player-burnout etc. Also Dermot says there about Brolly not saying the same thing about Barton. Well Brolly certainly criticised Derry's current/recent approach very harshly both this year and last. IN fact he criticises the Derry approach in last sunday's program more than once, very harshly. I think he even said, "Derry are worse". Yes for sure he certainly did criticise Derrys approach and there should be no issue with that, they were terrible .. If he had done the same thing with Armagh (and other teams) then there wouldnt be a problem ... its when he delves into the personal stuff about managers and/or players that he becomes completely out of order.. Its obviously his little personal agenda that made him go for McGeeney and totally ignore Barton..
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 2, 2016 13:35:20 GMT
Jesus he was an arsehole even all the way back then! A complete Buffoon He looks like an insecure wee man trying to bolster himself up .. just the same today !! For sure he was/is a very cocky little s*, but I don't think it was ever much more than that in the past. I always found him funny. Just on the other post, what he said about Derry in effect was about Barton, amongst others. He didn't need to say Barton, it is clear to all. Geeser is much, much higher profile and more influential than Barton in Ulster GAA and beyond, so that may be part of why he is targetting him. And not many people will directly single their own county-folk for personal criticsim, probably a wise course of action!! What he said about Seán Cavanagh was an utter disgrace though & I can understand Tyrone people not having anything conciliatory to say about him after that............
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Post by Dermot on Jun 2, 2016 14:58:16 GMT
A complete Buffoon He looks like an insecure wee man trying to bolster himself up .. just the same today !! For sure he was/is a very cocky little s*, but I don't think it was ever much more than that in the past. I always found him funny. Just on the other post, what he said about Derry in effect was about Barton, amongst others. He didn't need to say Barton, it is clear to all. Geeser is much, much higher profile and more influential than Barton in Ulster GAA and beyond, so that may be part of why he is targetting him. And not many people will directly single their own county-folk for personal criticsim, probably a wise course of action!! What he said about Seán Cavanagh was an utter disgrace though & I can understand Tyrone people not having anything conciliatory to say about him after that............ Yeah I wont argue with you about the Cavanagh comments but saying things about a county is still different than directing everything towards an actual named person. Also, he's basically told lies about McGeeney .. i.e. that most of the Crossmaglen lads wouldnt play for him due to 6:30am training and that they didnt like his management skills and/or training regime etc.. An ex Armagh manager (Brian McAlinden) basically said in one of the papers today that thats a load of old cobblers as they dont do 6:30am training and that when he was manager the cross lads didnt play then either... He said McGeeney asked them and they declined, which apparently he did too when he was manager and they declined then too Joe has a spite against McGeeney and its an opportunity to get himself talked about .. 2 birds with one stone ..simple as that.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Jun 2, 2016 23:59:56 GMT
McDonnell was class player.
I don't think I'm stretching the boundaries of possibilities that Joe in varnishing himself with notoriety is exposing himself to getting a flake. Unlike the the Crumlin native with the very nickname, Joe won't have wheel kicks or the heavy hands to warden them off. I would have no hankering for a dispute with Maister McGeeney.
"Want a brolly, say you want a brolly, I'll show you a brolly"
Don't pi$$ down my back and tell me it's raining"
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Jun 3, 2016 0:14:35 GMT
I think McGeeney has shown a fair bit of class(and shrewdness given the other folks publicly batting for him) in making no entrance into the furore
Joe is now more roundly being shown to be quite spiteful which is one of the worst traits that can beset a human being. Such a characteristic is useful in his line of work - to be able to only see one side (his), to be dogged to the end, and do "what it takes" to get the result being sought. Sociopathic spectrum - definitely a case to be argued.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 3, 2016 6:39:04 GMT
I think McGeeney has shown a fair bit of class(and shrewdness given the other folks publicly batting for him) in making no entrance into the furore Joe is now more roundly being shown to be quite spiteful... If I were you I would consider deleting the last sentence you wrote...is that not a bit too far?
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Post by playitfair on Jun 3, 2016 10:46:29 GMT
As a general point, my own view is that RTE could do better in the way it analyses games. No need for any analysis to get personal just call it as they see it with the overriding caveat that they should not get personal in criticism at any time unless it relates to an act of thuggery which if it occurred on the street would merit a trip to court.
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kerryexile
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Post by kerryexile on Jun 3, 2016 11:13:15 GMT
As a general point, my own view is that RTE could do better in the way it analyses games. No need for any analysis to get personal just call it as they see it with the overriding caveat that they should not get personal in criticism at any time unless it relates to an act of thuggery which if it occurred on the street would merit a trip to court. Absolutely agree - the comment should be to improve the enjoyment of the viewers which i see as varying from people who just have a basic knowledge of the game to people well informed through club activities and on to people who want a cutting edge professional analysis. An example of the latter is what Ronan O'Gara brings to rugby analysis. No football analyst has come near that. Speaking of managers and RTE stooges - there was an interesting few comments this week by Martin O'Neill about Dunphy.
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Post by Dermot on Jun 3, 2016 15:29:30 GMT
I think McGeeney has shown a fair bit of class(and shrewdness given the other folks publicly batting for him) in making no entrance into the furore Joe is now more roundly being shown to be quite spiteful which is one of the worst traits that can beset a human being. Such a characteristic is useful in his line of work - to be able to only see one side (his), to be dogged to the end, and do "what it takes" to get the result being sought. Sociopathic spectrum - definitely a case to be argued. Yep, that all makes a lot of sense .. and as for your previous post - Jeez I would't want to tangle with McGeeney either .. He's a one very tough nut!!
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Post by southward on Jun 3, 2016 20:48:54 GMT
Cavan are not getting enough credit. They put huge work over the last ten years and won a few u21 in Ulster. They are better than Armagh now because they have a greater number of good players coming through How good are Cavan? Have to admit I've not seen them yet this year but if Michael Argue is still being started... In fairness, he's brutal.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 3, 2016 21:01:28 GMT
Cavan are not getting enough credit. They put huge work over the last ten years and won a few u21 in Ulster. They are better than Armagh now because they have a greater number of good players coming through How good are Cavan? Have to admit I've not seen them yet this year but if Michael Argue is still being started... In fairness, he's brutal. You don't like Argue...some lads might debate the toss with you on that one.
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 3, 2016 21:08:03 GMT
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Jun 3, 2016 23:34:52 GMT
I think McGeeney has shown a fair bit of class(and shrewdness given the other folks publicly batting for him) in making no entrance into the furore Joe is now more roundly being shown to be quite spiteful... If I were you I would consider deleting the last sentence you wrote...is that not a bit too far? I've re-read it, I think it's fair given what and how he presents - I did mention to argue, wasn't asserting like it was factual. I didn't reference a psychopathic spectrum. I would agree that would then be a step too far.
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 4, 2016 7:45:41 GMT
Bernard Brogan will play his first championship game outside Croker this weekend.
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 9, 2016 22:30:38 GMT
Very good programme on RTE tonight on Muhammad Ali.
George Foreman said that it was an insult to Ali to simply describe him as the best boxer in history as he was also one of the best people in history. Maybe its pur nostalgia but the one channel RTE seemed to bring a golden age of sport in the 70s.... Brazil in 1970, Cruyff and Holland in 1974, Maradona in 1978, Borg v McEnroe, Eamonn Cregan and Limerick in 1973, Gareth Edwards, Barry John, The All Blacks v the Barbarians, Lasse Viren (before he was outed), Mikey Sheehy, Jacko, Paidi, Kevin Moran...Kerry v Cork in 1976.
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Post by skybluezone on Jun 11, 2016 1:50:23 GMT
Very good programme on RTE tonight on Muhammad Ali. George Foreman said that it was an insult to Ali to simply describe him as the best boxer in history as he was also one of the best people in history. Maybe its pur nostalgia but the one channel RTE seemed to bring a golden age of sport in the 70s.... Brazil in 1970, Cruyff and Holland in 1974, Maradona in 1978, Borg v McEnroe, Eamonn Cregan and Limerick in 1973, Gareth Edwards, Barry John, The All Blacks v the Barbarians, Lasse Viren (before he was outed), Mikey Sheehy, Jacko, Paidi, Kevin Moran...Kerry v Cork in 1976. Maradona was nowhere near 1978. U19 world cup in that era but first showcased his talents pre 1982 world cup and then won it in 1986 obviously! Try Mario Kempes! Apologies for being so pedantic...
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 11, 2016 10:23:17 GMT
ah tis alright..thanks...meant to say Kempes but all this things are muddled up in my head at the best of times
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 14, 2016 13:37:12 GMT
Look at this clueless *... he'd be perfect as the Cork County Board's choice for next ICF manager: www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/former-dublin-boss-not-a-hope-of-kerry-winning-the-all-ireland-744740.htmlFormer Dublin manager Tommy Carr says there’s “not a hope” of Kerry finishing the season as All-Ireland senior football champions, writes Jackie Cahill. Carr believes the Kingdom “don’t have the legs” to go all the way to September glory, despite their recent Munster success. Former Dublin manager Tommy Carr. advertisement And Carr has also dismissed Westmeath’s hopes of causing a massive shock against Dublin in next Sunday’s senior decider. Carr, a previous Westmeath minor boss, has predicted that a situation may arise where the Dubs go ten or 12 points clear and engage in “show-boating” to close the game out. Former All-Ireland medallist Carr does believe that Ulster finalists Tyrone are a genuine threat to All-Ireland champions Dublin but he has written Kerry off as contenders. He said: “You’d have to be looking at the likes of Tyrone because Kerry certainly won’t stop them (Dublin). “Not at all, not a hope, they don’t have the legs, they’re still playing Kieran Donaghy in the middle of the park. Kieran Donaghy and Kerry were defeated by Dublin in the 2015 All-Ireland final. “If you watch the League final, how laboured they are became so evident as the game went on. “Tyrone are the type of team that Dublin hate playing against. They’re the only team capable of doing it. “But they still have to play Donegal in an Ulster final and that will tell you a lot. When asked if Westmeath have any chance against Dublin at Croke Park, Carr replied: “No. And certainly not if they set up like last year, which is a temptation. “Whatever chance they have of being defensive, they have no chance unless they got out and play a bit of football. “And the one thing I can’t get my head around is how teams still allow the opposition for nothing. “In the Galway-Roscommon game, Seanie McDermott (Roscommon) must have got ten or 12 kick-outs last Sunday, for nothing. “And if you watch every time he got the ball, he actually got as far as midfield before anybody came to him. “So now you’re actually allowing the kick-out to be taken from midfield, because the player is able to get there. “It makes no sense. It’s so hard get the ball in hurling and football, and get it cleanly, and now you’re allowing them to get it without any hassle at all.” While acknowledging that Westmeath’s Leinster final experience against Dublin last year will benefit them ahead of Sunday’s repeat encounter, he says that the provincial kingpins will have too much pace and power. Carr added: “Westmeath have some good footballers if they go out and play but they’re going to get caught for pace and power, there’s no doubt about it. “They may last 30, 40 minutes or 50 minutes but it’s like Mayo and Fermanagh, you just see the gaps opening up as the game went on, the tiredness came in and sloppy tackling, all those bits and pieces, the characteristics of poor play. “Dublin will have too much for Westmeath, no doubt about it. “If you watch the first ten or 15 minutes of it (last year’s Leinster final), they were fine. “But a lot of it is they give up on the plan 15 or 20 minutes into the game, they don’t have the discipline to maintain what they’re doing. “Why can they do it for the first ten or 15 minutes and not do it for the next 15 minutes? “The opposition don’t have the discipline or concentration to maintain what they’re doing. “They don’t even have to maintain it for 70 minutes, if they can maintain it for 50 or 55 minutes, then it becomes a different game. “Dublin may not win this game by 15 or 20 points but if they get to ten or 12 points, they’ll start messing with the ball, they’ll start showboating. “That’s what you could see in this game – they go ten or 12 points up and it stays like that then for 40 minutes. “‘They’ll kick one and we’ll kick one’ and we’ll just keep that cushion there.”
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