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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jul 1, 2015 14:16:05 GMT
Meath are terrible right now but it's not such a new thing. If you look at the period from 1970 (when they won Sam) to 1986 (won Leinster) they won no Leinsters. In the last 16 years they have won one All-I, appeared in another final, and won 3 Leinsters. So a longish bad run for them is not new and not yet as bad as their previous one.
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Post by kerrygold on Jul 1, 2015 15:56:09 GMT
What I'm saying is that the gap, highlighted by Westmeath beating Meath, in Leinster football is only going to widen between the "haves" and the "have nots". The haves being a large county with a major city, huge playing and financial resources, proximity of players in terms of employment and those attending university and a monopoly of playing all championship games at home. So to cut to the chase here, as we are yet again going round in your endless circles, your point is that Dublin has lots of resources, Kerry doesn't, and therefore 'something has to be done about Dublin'/Leinster? You draw in a load of stuff about 'big city' etc, and neglect to separate out the issue of GAA resources as against general resources. I'm not going down the road of repeating myself on every single thing you keep throwing up. It's time for you to answer questions if you want to keep getting responses to this sort of stuff you campaign about year in year out. You can't see a problem in Cork for example having much bigger resources (not to mention population, number of GAA clubs) than most other counties, why is that? You see no problem in the fact that stronger counties have been relatively out of the league of much weaker counties all down the decades. You only started really going on about all this stuff when Dublin actually won a couple of All-Is, why is that? YOu see nothing wrong with Kk's unprecedented dominance, 10 All-Is in 15 years, or else you don't think it's worth talking about, why? Kerry have dominated football on and off and won much more than any other county, yet that's all down to Kerry's brilliance, nothing to do with having more resources than the poor weaker counties? Yet Dublin having a bit of success is somehow only down to "massive" resources, and resources are now a huge issue? You said yourself that Kildare and Meath have big resources, yet you talk about changing Leinster. Not anywhere else just because Cork happen to have remained competitive the last number of years. The points about the history of teams, counties, and provinces having periods of strength and weakness have been outlined here in detail over and over again, yet why do you choose to ignore all that and just keep bringing up the same things, saying the same things, every time Dublin win a game by a big score? Lots of teams have won games by big scores recently, not always as big, but as has been pointed out many times, it's a matter off degrees, and when Kerry were doing it in the 70s/80s 'that was then this is now'? As has been discussesd to death on here the issue of sponsorship, such as Kerry's 1.5 million (declared) from the US, needs looking at, and it is being looked at. The issue of supporting counties to improve structures in whatever appropriate ways needs looking at, it is being looked at. The issue is about competition structure as much as anything, but forget about that because it's much easier and more popular to go on and on and on and on and on about every time Dublin beats up some poor unfortunates. And in contrast, let's all talk about how majestic Kk are. The artistry of them, drool drool My discussion is in relation to Leinster and not the other provinces which by in large are relatively competitive compared to Leinster. Leinster football is dying a death. My conversation is relevant as long the Leinster council and counties within Leinster continue to give Dublin a monopoly on playing all championship games, and home league games, in Croke Park. No other county enjoys such an advantage. The spring series was designed to promote Dublin football, previous Dublin managers have latched onto its importance in putting Dublin football at the top table in terms of preparing them to win All-Irelands. That has been achieved now and it is time to revaluate if there is a level playing field in Leinster.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 1, 2015 16:10:47 GMT
Who says there has to be a level playing field anyway? There rarely is in sport and life.
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Post by Mickmack on Jul 1, 2015 17:48:29 GMT
Rather that running down Kildare, maybe we should acknowledge a stunning performance by Dublin Jim McGuinness suggests that Dublin have moved onto another level. In 2014 v Donegal the defending was not unlike the Dublin hurlers v Galway recently. Non existent really. They now have the right balance between offense and defence. by Jim McGuinness
I got a wee stroke of luck at the weekend because I was meant to be training on Saturday but the schedule was changed, which allowed me to go home to the championship. So I got a flight into Donegal on Friday night and then it was away to Clones on Saturday. It was my first time there as a supporter in a good few years and it was really enjoyable. Everyone was very friendly and it was lovely to talk and mix with the Donegal supporters.
Then it was on to Dublin on Saturday night. I was asked to deliver a talk for Celtic on Sunday morning. Celtic have 25 partner clubs in Ireland and the club invited the best young prospects up for a camp. Eight or nine Celtic coaches came over to give coaching sessions where the event was being held in Palmerstown.
I gave a presentation to around 180 young players and parents on what was expected of an academy player and what it took to make it to the first team and how a full-time athlete was expected to live their life. Then it was off to Croke Park and I arrived there at 1.50pm for a fairly breathtaking championship afternoon. So it was a hectic and really enjoyable 24 hours.
The Westmeath –Meath game was, as they say in Donegal, just mental and terrific entertainment. But I left Croke Park with Dublin on my mind. I feel it was a very important day for the future direction of Gaelic football yesterday.
I was surprised there wasn’t more made of what Dublin did against Kildare. A subtle but significant change took place in Dublin’s approach and their football philosophy. They have made themselves more difficult to beat after a performance which contained so much to admire and which made me slightly fearful of what is to come.
The first thing that struck me was that MD Macauley and Rory O’Carroll were listed among the substitutes but started the game, which was a new departure for Dublin. They tend not to play games like that and it suggested to me that they felt this was an important game for them. It looked like they went with their strongest 15. In the taxi on the way to Croke Park, I was excited to see what might be different since we played them last August.
My gut feeling was that I would see the same system from all four teams. Dublin played man-to-man with a sweeper dropping back in some national league games and as it turned out, Meath, Kildare and Westmeath replicated that.
Cover space
For Dublin, Cian O’Sullivan was the sweeper dropping back to cover space in front of the Kildare full forward line. Nothing radical in that. But it was the Dublin defensive system that fascinated me. They had spoken a lot about core values and man to man defence and the principles of Dublin football. But there has been a definite paradigm shift which I feel will make them very hard to beat.
So Dublin went man to man with O’Sullivan sweeping – and occasionally Jack McCaffrey. But the interesting thing was that when Kildare attacked them, they left their men and stepped off them and drifted from that into protecting the D, like an arc which is a zonal system. If the ball was pushed out to the wing, they sometimes stepped up again and went man to man. The other thing they were doing defensively is they were passing players on. If someone ran across the D and, say, the ball was on the left wing, they would pass that player on and keep the pressure on the ball in a zone format.
So in doing that, they have taken control back again. We had control last year when we played them because we could take the Dublin players where we wanted them. Because they stayed man to man we could dictate their movement.
I remember Paddy McGrath asking: ‘what if that doesn’t happen’. But we were 100 per cent sure they would go man-to-man on us. So this year Dublin have said: we are good enough to go man to man in the front and middle thirds of the pitch. But we are not going to concede the last third and allow teams to go straight down the middle. So they are playing smart and know when to drop off their man and when to defend the central area.
I recalled hearing they had spent some time in the winter working with Mark Ingle, the basketball coach. That was interesting because they looked very fluid against Kildare, as if they have a very high level of understanding of what they are doing. I feel they have a lot of work done on it. So here is the significant thing: if they aren’t giving up the middle and their mantra is not to concede goals, what do you do? Donegal’s performance against Dublin was one of the best we delivered in my time in charge and we still could only hold them to 0-16. So chances are you will have to score at least 0-17 to beat them – and that is not allowing for their potency in scoring goals.
Defensive shape
The other significant thing in terms of their defensive shape was that on the opposition kick-out they pushed everyone up except for O’Sullivan and their full back line. So you had 11 Dublin players spread out inside the Kildare half. Some were man marking, some were zonal/splitting and they forced Kildare to kick long which worked really well for them. But once the game was done and dusted on the scoreboard, they then pushed everybody up to conceal Cian O’Sullivan’s role. That tells me that we can be guaranteed Dublin’s central tenet this summer is they will not give up the middle.
They are phenomenal on the transition. Their pace and power and movement is just incredible and they get from one end of the pitch to the other so quickly. I think three Dublin goals came off Stephen Cluxton’s kick out. Cluxton creates a quandary for all teams. If you try to beat Dublin by pushing up, Cluxton has radar-like precision and is able to cause major damage by going over the top. But if you give them the kick out, it is inviting an onslaught. You end up handing them 40 possessions in a match. It is difficult to see how a team can do that and still concede less than 17 points because Dublin’s conversion rate is so high.
So that philosophical shift they have made – and the defensive adjustment they have made – are massive changes. The other thing is – bad news for all full backs – they appear to have become even better inside. They had three men inside – rotating between Dean Rock, Bernard Brogan and Kevin McManamon.
Normally two full forwards would play inside the large square and the other on the D in a conventional triangle. But they were stretched 50 metres apart and the other near the ‘45’. That creates a horrible problem for the sweeper. So where does he position himself? He cannot cover that ground. Even with a double sweeper, the space is incredible. Then what impressed me was the aggression and length of the runs made by the inside men. Forty metre sprints to win the ball and winning the ball at full speed: the Dubs were doing this again and again. That ability to win the ball at full speed is very difficult to coach – and to defend against.
Then you had Ciarán Kilkenny, Paul Flynn and Diarmuid Connolly coming from deep. They fist the ball inside a lot, which increases the pass-completion percentage. Then their ability to kick long-range points comes into it. I am listing all these things as an example of the number of questions they are now asking. They have retained all the threats they carried last year but they have become much more difficult to break down.
The scary thing is I felt they were flicking between second and third gear and it made me feel apprehensive for my own county and for all other counties. Because if they are just in third gear and have all these new processes in place: whenever they run out the tunnel with the focus and the attitude and the fire in their belly to play a top team and if they then hit fifth gear, well, that force that could be very hard to hold. The other aspect of their play that is significant is that all their goals and many of their points reflected a new-found unselfishness.
I don’t believe that was there previously in other years. And then – finally – there is the matter of their bench. Alan Brogan, Michael Fitzsimons, Paddy Andrews, James McCarthy; All-Ireland-winning players coming onto the field of play. The overall age profile is probably mid-20s and they have a group of U-21 All-Ireland winners waiting just to get into the squad.
So Dublin have reflected and have done a huge amount of work. They have created a new system for themselves. They put that in motion yesterday.
This has wider repercussions for the game. Most teams take their lead from the top teams – and Dublin are the most frequently imitated. So I think the other teams in Leinster will bite the bullet and go down this road now also. Dublin have been absolutely dominant in Leinster because it was man to man all over the pitch and other counties followed suit. If Dublin have bitten the bullet, I think Mayo may do the same and then perhaps the other Connacht teams will follow that. Most managers take their lead from the top teams.
I have a problem with that. Managers need to be more original and come up with their own strategies. Now Dublin are moving to this system and people will copy that. The challenge is not to copy them but to come up with a system to beat them.
Which could be easier said than done. For me, there are not many boxes left to tick for Dublin going on Sunday’s performance. They have made themselves much more difficult to beat.
New system
I am not saying Dublin are invincible. But I am honestly not sure right now how they can be beaten with what they can bring to the table. What we did last year clearly won’t work this time around.
They have taken zero away from their strategy but have devised a new system. They looked more like a team on Sunday too. You could see the communication and the passing on and that they were working in concert. You can argue there was a gulf in standard on Sunday. But what could Kildare have done differently? How do you take that athleticism on? How do you stop Cluxton’s precision? How do you break them down? The list of questions they pose for all teams is very, very long now.
Dublin cast a very long shadow before the championship started but, at times on Sunday, it looked more like an eclipse.
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Post by ansúilleabhánach on Jul 2, 2015 3:13:43 GMT
Meath are terrible right now but it's not such a new thing. If you look at the period from 1970 (when they won Sam) to 1986 (won Leinster) they won no Leinsters AHEM. Next thing you'll be declaring them legitimate 2010 Leinster champions
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jul 2, 2015 16:23:23 GMT
Meath are terrible right now but it's not such a new thing. If you look at the period from 1970 (when they won Sam) to 1986 (won Leinster) they won no Leinsters AHEM. Next thing you'll be declaring them legitimate 2010 Leinster champions Oops! Meant to say "they won Shame", damn keyboard not working Apologies for that. Strange one because being a bit of an amateur statto it's clear in my mind that Meath's last Sam before 87 was 67..................as if I'd want to give Da Royal any extra success!! Point still stands, no Leinster titles between '70 and '86. Just on JMG's article there, I think he is being very melodramatic and not a little cute. Very good analysis overall but inaccurate in some things possibly. And the inevitable comment about how he had Dublin 100% sussed last year. The man's a messiah....
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Post by Mickmack on Jul 2, 2015 18:52:20 GMT
Kildare are at about the same place as they were in 2008 when Dublin got past them by a few points.
The optics should be on the improvement by Dublin.
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Post by kerrygold on Jul 2, 2015 20:31:28 GMT
Kildare were better in 2008 and had "franchise" players in the form of Dermot Early and Johnny Doyle. Dublin have moved on to a different level in the meantime.
Three Kildare men will manage/be involved on the sideline in three provincial finals over the next few weeks. Niall Carew Sligo, Tom Cribbin Westmeath and Cian O'Neill Kerry. An interesting stat.
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keane
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,267
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Post by keane on Jul 4, 2015 10:05:37 GMT
Kildare are at about the same place as they were in 2008 when Dublin got past them by a few points. The optics should be on the improvement by Dublin. Kildare were in Division 1 in 2008, now set to play division 3. They're gotten way worse since McGeeney was booted.
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Post by donegalman on Jul 4, 2015 19:31:37 GMT
Kildare were at their peak back in 2010 and 11. I remember watching them getting hammered by cork in 2012 and wondering how it went wrong for them. They won today, but it must be a horrible thing being a kildare player beating a division 4 team by 2 points, and staying in the competition that they will eventually exit without much joy. I do feel for them, because their supporters are very loyal.
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Post by kerrygold on Jul 4, 2015 20:06:19 GMT
Kildare are at about the same place as they were in 2008 when Dublin got past them by a few points. The optics should be on the improvement by Dublin. Kildare were in Division 1 in 2008, now set to play division 3. They're gotten way worse since McGeeney was booted. Looks like the 30 delegates got it spot on!
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Post by kerrygold on Jul 4, 2015 20:11:24 GMT
Kildare were at their peak back in 2010 and 11. I remember watching them getting hammered by cork in 2012 and wondering how it went wrong for them. They won today, but it must be a horrible thing being a kildare player beating a division 4 team by 2 points, and staying in the competition that they will eventually exit without much joy. I do feel for them, because their supporters are very loyal. Strange 7 days for Kildare, they scored 14 points against a "crack" Dublin defence last weekend and scored 15 points against Offaly today who went out to Longford in the first round. Go figure that one.
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Post by kerrygold on Jul 4, 2015 20:21:56 GMT
RESULTS All-Ireland SFC Qualifiers Round 2A Offaly 1-13 Kildare 1-15, O’Connor Park Cavan 1-16 Roscommon 3-17, Kingspan Breffni Park Clare 1-12 Longford 2-12, Cusack Park
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Post by westmeathman on Jul 12, 2015 10:54:09 GMT
Best of luck to the westmeath lads today
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Post by kerrygold on Jul 12, 2015 14:47:02 GMT
Dubs looked far from good today, that is the kind of game that can suck form out of a team. The Dubs could be vulnerable for their quarter final tie. If Cork close out the deal next weekend the cat will be firmly thrown among the pigeons.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jul 12, 2015 15:25:25 GMT
Was there any real need for Connolly to take that 45 with his bad leg? I know Westmeath were beaten but show a bit of class for godsake
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Post by kerrygold on Jul 12, 2015 16:29:39 GMT
Was there any real need for Connolly to take that 45 with his bad leg? I know Westmeath were beaten but show a bit of class for godsake Maybe Diarmuid was wagging his tail in the air?
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jul 12, 2015 16:33:10 GMT
Was there any real need for Connolly to take that 45 with his bad leg? I know Westmeath were beaten but show a bit of class for godsake Maybe Diarmuid was wagging his tail in the air? What does that mean? Acting the boll*x?
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Post by skybluezone on Jul 12, 2015 16:36:32 GMT
Was there any real need for Connolly to take that 45 with his bad leg? I know Westmeath were beaten but show a bit of class for godsake Jesus Christ, any excuse to have a go. Btw I doubt if he has a 'bad leg'.
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Post by Chinatown on Jul 12, 2015 16:49:14 GMT
Was there any real need for Connolly to take that 45 with his bad leg? I know Westmeath were beaten but show a bit of class for godsake Jesus Christ, any excuse to have a go. Btw I doubt if he has a 'bad leg'. Class in the same sentence, really, Oxymoron yeah?
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jul 12, 2015 17:25:45 GMT
Was there any real need for Connolly to take that 45 with his bad leg? I know Westmeath were beaten but show a bit of class for godsake Jesus Christ, any excuse to have a go. Btw I doubt if he has a 'bad leg'. Ah man- he was taking the p*ss with that and you know he was too. He is right legged and it was central- dont treat opponents like a training match= its phenomenally disrespectful
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Jul 12, 2015 17:29:51 GMT
Dubs looked far from good today, that is the kind of game that can suck form out of a team. The Dubs could be vulnerable for their quarter final tie. If Cork close out the deal next weekend the cat will be firmly thrown among the pigeons. Westmeath, nor any other team in Leinster, never really tested the Dubs and still for long periods of the game it looked like Westmeath would stay close to them. Two quick goals was the real difference as apart from those Westmeath stayed very close. Dublin's defensive system was rushed and chaotic despite only conceding a few points. If Dublin are drawn against Tyrone in the Quarter Final I would fancy Tyrone if Dublin play like today. To no fault of their own Dublin are just not being tested at all and go into a quarter final completely unprepared.
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Post by jackiel on Jul 12, 2015 17:36:10 GMT
Was there any real need for Connolly to take that 45 with his bad leg? I know Westmeath were beaten but show a bit of class for godsake Jesus Christ, any excuse to have a go. Btw I doubt if he has a 'bad leg'. He might not have a bad leg but he had 2 sore feet when he came off, took off his boots and socks and poured water on his feet.
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Post by jackiel on Jul 12, 2015 17:41:06 GMT
Dubs looked far from good today, that is the kind of game that can suck form out of a team. The Dubs could be vulnerable for their quarter final tie. If Cork close out the deal next weekend the cat will be firmly thrown among the pigeons. If Westmeath had been able to finish even half of their wasted chances in the first half they could have been going in level at halftime. I really didnt expect them to be within an asses roar of Dublin but they put up a far better show than any team so far in championship. Dublin will not be happy with today's performance, a stronger team would have troubled them.
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Post by Chinatown on Jul 12, 2015 17:55:50 GMT
Latest odds from paddy p, would have thought Dublins odds would have lengthened after today? Attachments:
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Post by skybluezone on Jul 12, 2015 18:23:35 GMT
Was not impressed at all with Dublin today. A big worry is the poor form of McAuley and Flynn in particular. Flynn has always been a model of consistency but this year he is miles off the pace. We will need our best players playing well from here on in, goes without saying. On Dublin v the blanket, I'm not too sure that any team look fluent when faced with it, the main thing is to get the job done. They have failed once in five years in this respect. But its the lack of a tough game before the QF that is a bigger concern. What's genuinely intriguing is if Kerry don't win Munster (I expect they will btw), and end up in a QF with Dublin. How will Eamonn Fitz approach that game tactically. Will he opt for a shootout or will he opt for a blanket? If he goes for the latter I don't think that will sit well in the Kingdom. The thoughts of the Dubs claiming the moral high ground in terms of how the game should be played might well force Fitz hand, but he is known for his pragmatic approach so he may just swim against the tide anyway. Fascinating prospect and even if it doesn't happen in a QF, I would love to see the match up at a later stage.
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Post by Mickmack on Jul 12, 2015 19:18:14 GMT
Dublin (SF v Kildare) - S Cluxton; J Cooper, David Byrne, P McMahon; D Daly, J Small, J McCaffrey; B Fenton, C O'Sullivan; P Flynn, K McManamon, C Kilkenny; D Rock, D Connolly, B Brogan. Is he the lad from Ballymun. If he is he isn't very tall for fullback and has a suspect temperament different D Byrne from St Olafs, not long out of u21 was it the Ballymun Davy Byrne that got his face rearranged against Armagh in a "friendly" last week
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Post by skybluezone on Jul 12, 2015 19:50:30 GMT
different D Byrne from St Olafs, not long out of u21 was it the Ballymun Davy Byrne that got his face rearranged against Armagh in a "friendly" last week It was Mick.
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Post by jackeensabhog on Jul 12, 2015 20:13:04 GMT
Was there any real need for Connolly to take that 45 with his bad leg? I know Westmeath were beaten but show a bit of class for godsake Maybe Diarmuid was wagging his tail in the air? I've can't remember him ever scoring a 45 with his good leg. Maybe he thought he'd give the other leg a go. In the end, same result. He shouldn't be taking any shots from the ground. It's the one technical aspect of his game that is below parr
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KY50
Senior Member
Posts: 318
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Post by KY50 on Jul 12, 2015 20:26:38 GMT
I have been told that one of the reasons the Dubs looked sluggish today is that they are in the middle of heavy training and also had a tough game against Armagh last weekend. Being sluggish also helps with to dampen the hype
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