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Post by kerry97 on Jul 16, 2024 15:39:51 GMT
Saturday was super disappointing . After getting to extra time I thought we'd scrape through . Unfortunately it wasn't to be .Good luck to Armagh in the final , worthy winners.
Positives for the year - Midfield came on a lot and I thought Joe O'Connor and Diarmuid O'Connor had good seasons. Defensively I think we look relatively secure but the system and style of football that is generally played at the moment supports this.
Negatives- Lack of goals / finishing .Bench Impact . Conditioning of the squad was clearly not right given the number of players cramping the last day .
Thoughts on next year - Need to find a few more players potentially a couple of situational players like a target man etc. I think we have too many similar players . Conditioning needs to be looked at , don't think it was a lack of effort from the players or anything , I just think the program was potentially put together incorrectly. We need to score a lot more goals going forward .
General Comments - I thought the comment on the support was poor enough and I would disagree with it . Secondly I hope the Football Review Committee find a way to breathe life into the game again , the lateral passing , playing on the break stuff and massed defences can be a really tough watch .
Finally and most importantly thanks to all the players and management for all their efforts over the course of the year , I know we only see a small fraction of it on match days. It wasn't to be on Saturday but it certainly wasn't down to a lack of effort or desire .
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Post by Kingdomson on Jul 16, 2024 16:04:36 GMT
In regards Pat Spillane, I don’t see the point in belittling the messenger at this stage, especially when on this occasion his message is not necessarily wrong and widely shared. I don’t like everything I read or hear, and wouldn’t be a fan of Pat as a pundit in general but it’s fairly low hanging fruit to go after him on this one. Éamonn Fitzmaurice, Tomas O’Se, and Tony Leen of the Kerry parish in different forums of the media are all making valid points that question Kerry’s attitude and leadership from the group in this game and this year in 2024. Kerry were a hard watch all season, and certainly as Fitzmaurice suggested this will lead to an internal review from top to bottom within the group, and rightfully so. The question I would have is, what's going to be different about the review this time? Because we've been down this road many times before.
In a game where skills pay the bills some of Kerry’s hand passing on the day was awful, too many neglected to shoot when the chance was there, then add in all the wide shots we did have, and one of our best didn’t have a right leg to throw at a glaring goal opportunity! I’ve said it before but we need an honest culture if we’re going to improve or are we all happy to keep re-watching the same movie and hope for a different ending? Seeing an end to provincial system is in Kerry's long-term interest too at all levels and the Kerry county board should be pushing for it.
On outside pundits, it was refreshing to hear James Horan of Mayo (Irish Examiner GAA podcast) and Rory O’Neill (Cork) on the RTE GAA podcast highlight the completely out of order and excessive maltreatment of David Clifford off the ball. I’d have more of an issue with referee assistant on day Joe McQuillan than Pat Spillane who looked absolutely delighted when greeting the Armagh management team at the end of this game.
Now if the officials did nothing to protect David, where were his teammates? You make the officials look, you do what you must to bring attention to where officials are failing and if this means creating an incident so be it. Where were the Kerry Spartans? I couldn’t imagine the likes of Kieran Donaghy, Paul Galvin, Aidan O'Mahony or the O’Sé’s not laying down the law and protecting a teammate as they often did for Gooch.
We might not like to hear it but there is a view that if you take Kerry into a staring contest in the last 5 minutes we’ll blink first. I remember it being said in the noughties and in advance of 2011 final, and we have heard it thrown our way many times. In the last ten years outside of 2014 and 2022 we’ve blinked a lot in such situations and the question is why? This is needs to be addressed and there needs to be honesty. I think Tony Leen of the Kerry and Irish Examiner parish is worth a read on this and raises the case very well. You might not agree with it all or it might broaden the thinking but it's certainly better than sticking a green and gold flag in front of your eyes and claiming nothing to see here.
www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41436724.html
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Post by Kingdomson on Jul 16, 2024 16:07:01 GMT
irishexaminer.com Tony Leen: For another autumn autopsy, Kerry should not ignore the elephant in the room THE AFTERMATH dripped with stats and factoids, few of which are admissible in the ongoing oddity of Kerry’s too frequent inability to close out tight games. Going back to the same Armagh opposition in 2002 (not mentioning what happened 20 years before that…), Kerry folk have gobbled up a lot of winters wondering how did they let another one slip away. One of them (2008, Tyrone, Tommy McGuigan) even had a similarly decisive, if jammy, goal for the opposition, trickling into the Canal End goal.
After another big short on Saturday in Croke Park, Jack O’Connor submitted that Barry McCambridge’s fortuitous Armagh goal, Kerry’s own butchered chances early in the second period, and the heaving sea of Orchard orange around the ground as exhibits for the defence. Each had their legitimacy. Nonetheless, from winning, dominant positions, few could really dispute that Kerry have misplaced that once-ruthless competency to put manners on the opposition, to render an upstart rising stillborn. The why and the how are certain to be scrutinised again in the wake of this semi-final loss. The when? One could take post-2009 as an approximate start point, the evidence mounted quicker thereafter, though it's worth mentioning 2014 and 2022 as rebuttals. This time they got drawn into an anaconda’s pit. Kerry went five up in the 47th minute and were comfortable, without being overtly superior. For the next fifty minutes of so, they added 0-5. That’s a score every ten minutes.
O’Connor and his players had to be aware that in the pantheon on grinders who don’t take a knee, Kieran McGeeney and the decade he has spent inculcating his players with the spartan values he espouses, were the exampla gratis. For anyone who hasn’t seen McGeeney’s speech to a student group fifteen years ago about the Spartans and the Battle of Thermopylae, it is worth a rummage through the internet, but the nub of it is here.
“What I took from it, more than anything else, was their motto — come home with your shield or upon it. The Spartans were renowned as the greatest fighting army in the world and they carried their shield in their left hand with their spear in their right. “They carried their shield in their left hand, because they protected the man beside them. And that was their sole focus in battle: it was to make sure that the man beside them survived. And it was through that, that they became the most invincible army in the world, because they were always willing to make sure that the man beside them was better looked after than themselves. “I sort of thought to myself, if a team can think that way - and as an individual I was always very personally driven - I said to myself: 'My job, really, on the football field, should be to make everyone beside me look better than I do.' And it was through that philosophy that my own football started to flourish, and we tried to build it through the Armagh team.”
Eventually, they did. None of this is to suggest that Kerry players do not look out for the man alongside. That would be nonsensical. But McGeeney knew it, and if he didn’t, Kieran Donaghy was alongside the reassure him. Hang onto these boys for an hour and take our chances down the stretch. Kerry tend to tighten up.
No less a philosopher than Con Houlihan once ridiculed the notion that the mountains and seas in Kerry were responsible for the soaring excellence of their football. If that was the benchmark, the flat plains of Kildare would never have turned out a player. But for all the harsh Atlantic winters and saturated springs, Kerry’s historical pre-eminence in the Gaelic football arena has often meant they have relied less on grunt and grind. When you’re taking shallow breaths, these things make a difference. It was notable as O’Connor rang the changes towards the end and into extra time that Kerry looked rather callow and lacking in leaders. Or fir láidir, as a Ventry man would say. It might be a stretch to say they looked rudderless, though not by much. Twenty two years ago, we stood in the corridor underneath the Cusack Stand of Croke Park, seeking logic from Paidi Ó Sé after Kerry lost an All-Ireland they should have won to McGeeney and Armagh. He used the word ‘culture’ more than once. Tangentially he did a tour of military metaphors around the life and strife of living in Crossmaglen at the time, of British troops and helicopters, of intimidation and insurrection. At the time, I felt it was nonsense and diversionary, but now I’m not so sure he wasn’t at least a bit right. Armagh brought a store of historical and emotional fuel with them to Dublin at the weekend. It was certain to burn bright if ignited. Kerry held out a match to them. In its aftermath McGeeney accentuated his fascination with Kerry football rather than dwell on their own long, hard winters. “The one thing I have always loved about playing against Kerry is it’s always full on. They are all in. There's no back doors with them and I like that. I like the way they play football. It is very aggressive, nobody ever talks about their aggressive streak. It sounds derogatory but it's not. I think that's how you play at this level.” It’s not their stomach for the 50-50s that catches Kerry short. Nor their defensive proficiency. In the first period, many Kerry players delivered textbook examples of the turnover and the defensive swarm. But as their profligacy increased, so too did physical fatigue and psychological doubt. Legs began wobbling. For sure, the current championship structure rarely gives Kerry a pre-Croke Park gut-check their championship challenge demands. For all the sports science and periodisation they have honed (remember, Kerry had the ideal game-every-two-weeks schedule), they were not truly braced for McGeeney’s Armagh down the stretch Saturday. The irony of Ulster lads scoffing enviously on ‘The Sunday Game’ at Kerry’s facile run to the knockout stages wafts around them in the Montrose studio. While the post-mortem is contemplating how to manage that better, Tony Griffin can lead the internal audit on why Kerry keep blinking when the fat’s in the fire. O’Connor was of the view that they were getting over the hang-up. He said so himself in April after beating Cork, the first time I’ve publicly heard him address the issue, albeit briefly. “Fellas showed their experience, that they had been there before, and were relatively comfortable in a two or three-point game, which is a change for us. Traditionally, Kerry haven’t been great in tight games.” There has been some interesting insight published during Euro 2024 on England’s old failings from the penalty spot. A study interviewing those who took spot kicks in a shoot-out between Netherlands and Sweden at Euro 2004 found that those who felt the result was down to luck were more likely to have destructive interpretations of anxiety - and ultimately more likely to miss - than those who believed that it was down to skill. Gareth Southgate, Steve Holland and their coaching colleagues have long since embraced the importance of penalty proficiency being the first step towards being better at them. Of course at a more fundamental level, O’Connor will lament the modest form of his leading forwards, the two Cliffords and Sean O’Shea all season – and of Dara Moynihan and Paul Geaney on Saturday. They might have finished with 1-16 but Kerry kicked 14 wides in the semi-final and had a conversion rate from play of a mere 38%, though to be fair, that is an outlier on their championship journey. O’Connor and his management team have another season at the helm if they want it, though it possibly needs a new voice. I’d be surprised if Paddy Tally continues to trek down from the north for a fourth season, so there may be a new coach. Irrespective, it is also time for Kerry to set David Clifford on a new course. Perhaps on the forty. He got some poking on Saturday from his markers though there was seldom the sense that Kerry were going to start a row over it. Maybe they were right. There should be changes elsewhere in attack too - and midfield still needs more onion. Kerry failed to score in the first period of extra time at Croke Park, by which point they had surrendered the lead and the psychological controls. Now we were in Armagh time, the clock working orange. Kerry had retreated into their past with high seas and mountainous terrain. I went searching for a text message on my phone afterwards. ‘Culture is such a delicate thing, yet it can give you the strength to topples countries. Once it means something, it can take you anywhere.’ Anywhere. Sent by a spartan.
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Post by donegalman on Jul 16, 2024 16:27:15 GMT
It's been a long time since I posted, and am a disappointed supporter myself this evening. The difference between our semi final loss and Kerry's is fairly obvious. We were never in a position to put the game to bed but Kerry had a massive chance with their 2nd goal chance in the 2nd half. They could have counter attacked at their leisure thereafter (with a 7 point cushion). I didn't anticipate how well Armagh's conditioning would be yesterday, but it was 100% the tipping factor in the result thereafter. Basically, I agree with Sean Oshea's match assessment yesterday. The way forward for Kerry football is not major surgery, but there has to be an increase in concentration on behalf of players, namely to score those chances rather than let them slip away. I'm not sure how you get this message through to the players, other than reminding them of the consequences when the ball breaks down the pitch and turns a +3 into a -1 differential Nice post Donegal and hard luck yesterday.Donegal just did nt have that bit of luck. Thanks Ciarraimick. The term "Having a bit of luck" is doing the rounds lately. Even McGuinness was alluding to it! Not sure I entirely agree with it in every post mortem of a game. I think we were just out manoeuvred on Sunday in the 2nd half. Armagh did get a break in their goal...but I would have to fault the kerry keeper, regardless of what he might think about reading this after the game. (He would probably be the first to agree anyhow). If this is luck, then so be it. Likewise, the wide that would have put you 7 clear was a lucky break for Armagh...For Kerry, it was a major error. Onward and upwards.
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Post by kerry97 on Jul 16, 2024 16:29:57 GMT
The mental frailty stuff . I'm not sure about this .
The other way of looking at this is that we are an incredibly difficult team to beat in a competitive era of football . When was the last time we got hammered out the gate and completely died in a Championship match ?
2024 - Lost in ET by 2 points 2023 - Lost by 2 in the All Ireland Final . Beat Derry by 2 in the Semi and Cork in the group by 2 in a game that mattered as we lost the first group game to Mayo . 2022- Won a AI by coming from behind in the second half , beat Dublin in the semi with the last kick . 2021 - Lost to Tyrone in the omni-farce COVID debacle . Arguably lost due to tactics more than anything else . Lost by 1. 2020- Kicked a heap wides in the pouring rain in November , lost in ET to an aimless shot. 2019 - Lost a replay to the greatest team ever to play the game . Beat Tyrone by 3 in the Semi . Drew a tight game with Donegal that could have went either way . 2018 - Drew with Monaghan somehow , played really poorly against Galway on a wet day and lost by 2 or 3. 2017 - deservedly beaten by Mayo in a Semi- Final Replay . Drew the first game somehow . 2016 - Lost to Dublin by 2 , they were better than us . 2015 - Lost the AI in the pouring rain , arguably a few things went against us but thought Dublin deserved it on balance by 3 . recall them hitting the post and Kealy making a good save in the second half that kept us in it. 2014- Won the AI , clutch stuff . Kieran O'Leary in the drawn semi , Jonathan Lyne in the replay . Donegal goalie made a mistake and we took advantage of it in the second half of the final . Are the Jim McGuiness teams weak in the mind ? no one would dare suggest it . 2013 - Lost a classic semi to a brilliant young Dublin team . 2012- Beaten by Donegal , brutal viewing , poor performance . Not sure if psychological . 2011 - Disaster . 2010- Maybe this was mental , we never got off the Bus for the Down game . Total systems failure and the only time in the last 15 years we were beaten easily in Croke Park.
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Post by Kingdomson on Jul 16, 2024 17:03:13 GMT
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Post by southward on Jul 16, 2024 17:12:37 GMT
For me the Pat Spillane article in Sunday World said it all. Key points : 1. They were fitter and had leaders all over the field, whereas yet again in a big match Kerry’s main men were marked absent. 2. Armagh’s shooting efficiency improved and the impact of their bench was unbelievable. 3. Kerry ran out of steam and ideas. Their key leaders disappeared when they were needed most. 4. Their game management, decision-making and composure, which is normally so good, deserted them. 5. A supposedly golden generation of players has now delivered one All-Ireland in the last six years. And remember they played in four finals including a replay but only captured Sam once. 6. There is a common theme in the big-match defeats Kerry have endured in the last six years. A lack of leaders, a lack of composure and poor decision-making. Of course not all his work but Kieran Donaghys psychological effect on Armagh instilling some Kerry clearly worked. If you were a player looking for a psychological lift, some inspiration, some personality would Jack O Connor be your choice, fair play if he would but would not be mine. Pat Spillane - Jesus, the absolute worst spoofer ever! A career made from nothing more than stating the bleeding obvious. Ne'er a screed of insight into anything. Fair play to him though - he's managed to convince people to pay him for talking complete sh*te. There's hope for us all
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Post by tralee58 on Jul 16, 2024 18:51:05 GMT
In regards Pat Spillane, I don’t see the point in belittling the messenger at this stage, especially when on this occasion his message is not necessarily wrong and widely shared. I don’t like everything I read or hear, and wouldn’t be a fan of Pat as a pundit in general but it’s fairly low hanging fruit to go after him on this one. Éamonn Fitzmaurice, Tomas O’Se, and Tony Leen of the Kerry parish in different forums of the media are all making valid points that question Kerry’s attitude and leadership from the group in this game and this year in 2024. Kerry were a hard watch all season, and certainly as Fitzmaurice suggested this will lead to an internal review from top to bottom within the group, and rightfully so. The question I would have is, what's going to be different about the review this time? Because we've been down this road many times before.
In a game where skills pay the bills some of Kerry’s hand passing on the day was awful, too many neglected to shoot when the chance was there, then add in all the wide shots we did have, and one of our best didn’t have a right leg to throw at a glaring goal opportunity! I’ve said it before but we need an honest culture if we’re going to improve or are we all happy to keep re-watching the same movie and hope for a different ending? Seeing an end to provincial system is in Kerry's long-term interest too at all levels and the Kerry county board should be pushing for it.
On outside pundits, it was refreshing to hear James Horan of Mayo (Irish Examiner GAA podcast) and Rory O’Neill (Cork) on the RTE GAA podcast highlight the completely out of order and excessive maltreatment of David Clifford off the ball. I’d have more of an issue with referee assistant on day Joe McQuillan than Pat Spillane who looked absolutely delighted when greeting the Armagh management team at the end of this game.
Now if the officials did nothing to protect David, where were his teammates? You make the officials look, you do what you must to bring attention to where officials are failing and if this means creating an incident so be it. Where were the Kerry Spartans? I couldn’t imagine the likes of Kieran Donaghy, Paul Galvin, Aidan O'Mahony or the O’Sé’s not laying down the law and protecting a teammate as they often did for Gooch.
We might not like to hear it but there is a view that if you take Kerry into a staring contest in the last 5 minutes we’ll blink first. I remember it being said in the noughties and in advance of 2011 final, and we have heard it thrown our way many times. In the last ten years outside of 2014 and 2022 we’ve blinked a lot in such situations and the question is why? This is needs to be addressed and there needs to be honesty. I think Tony Leen of the Kerry and Irish Examiner parish is worth a read on this and raises the case very well. You might not agree with it all or it might broaden the thinking but it's certainly better than sticking a green and gold flag in front of your eyes and claiming nothing to see here.
www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41436724.htmlGood write up that. Kerry aim to win All Irelands and most years have good chance to do so. Talent there. Something wrong hope they find out what it is quickly
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Post by Ballydonoghoor on Jul 16, 2024 20:18:50 GMT
I think Vet is saving us here, I'd say he was ready to knock houses Sun evening!
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Post by kerryman99 on Jul 16, 2024 20:52:46 GMT
Its funny if Tom sticks the goal then we most likely win and the top down review isn't even mentioned. Similarly if Shane doesn't spill the ball then we most likely win in my opinion. Point is its a fine line between win and failure. Since we lost, everything is up for grabs. We didn't play that well, but we missed handy goals and some of the wides were atrocious. Point is we had loads of chances in the game.
I think our group games and the Derry game did nothing for us, we looked so undercooked.
We seem to be making a habit of making massive blunders, Shane this year and Gavin last year. I dont know...
When David was getting roughed up, a few others should have bailed into the Armagh lads, easier for a forward to deal with a yellow than a back. Ref or his umpires should have seen it but we can't rely on them as we know.
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Post by john4 on Jul 16, 2024 21:17:42 GMT
It's not often that there's a new innovation in football but the tactic that Armagh used this year in the attacking spine formation was something fresh. They didn't actually get a lot of scores from it and I think they might have used it only 3/4 times in the match. I think they got 1 mark from it.
What it shows me though is that they've a confidence to have a cut off a new approach and you'd have to admire that in fairness.
I can't think of a tactical innovation in the last 20 years we can put our names to!
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Post by anriochtabu23 on Jul 16, 2024 23:13:26 GMT
What podcast is James Horan on
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Post by cliffy on Jul 17, 2024 7:46:24 GMT
Anyone got Dara O Ses article in Irish Times today? Cheers👍
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Post by softallireland on Jul 17, 2024 9:21:11 GMT
"On outside pundits, it was refreshing to hear James Horan of Mayo (Irish Examiner GAA podcast) and Rory O’Neill (Cork) on the RTE GAA podcast highlight the completely out of order and excessive maltreatment of David Clifford off the ball. I’d have more of an issue with referee assistant on day Joe McQuillan than Pat Spillane who looked absolutely delighted when greeting the Armagh management team at the end of this game."
If Gough can spot a little jersey pull from 50 yards ,(yes, I know it's still a foul) why didn't he do something about this maltreatment? Players are entitled to protection and a quick yellow card early on would cut this out. Dublin Joe has never done us any favours.
Not the reason we lost but frustrating to see.
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Post by kerryman99 on Jul 17, 2024 9:39:34 GMT
What podcast is James Horan on Examiner Sport, it's behind a pay wall. For me it's the best one going.
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Post by augustafield on Jul 17, 2024 11:16:48 GMT
The ref didn’t beat us , Dublin Joe didn’t beat us - they may have been happy we lost - but they didn’t beat us . The fact is - as unpalatable as it is - we were the authors of our own misfortune .
When the opportunities presented themselves to put the game beyond Armagh’s reach we miserably failed - not once but twice . I write of the gilt edged goal attempts . And in an All Ireland semi final you cannot use the excuse that it was defenders not forwards who missed them . If a player can’t even hit the target from that range what is he doing in such an attacking position ? Maybe tactics direct him but if so they are questionable . And discussion on them awaits another time .
Most of the posters on this Forum have dissected in great detail how and why we lost last Saturday and I don’t intend to add to that other than to say Armagh didn’t go away and when the end game came in sight were by far the better team and deservedly won. And the best of luck to them in the final .
I was not at the match so the only information I have concerning David’s rough treatment by Armagh players comes from comments on this Forum . If the ref was so eagle eyed about Kerry players jersey pulling then it is disappointing that he couldn’t be alerted to such tactics . But if he didn’t protect David where were his team mates ? Why didn’t they react. ? Rightly or wrongly Kerry are considered an easy touch and easily bullied and the reluctance to stand up for one another confirms that fact . Consider the knee in the ribs David suffered in the quarter final - not one Kerry player went to his assistance - he was left on his own . And gets a yellow card to add insult to injury .
David’s form this year has been very ordinary - by his own standards - but maybe the physical abuse he is getting and the lack of protection from referees and lack of support from his team mates is seeping into his consciousness and affecting him . He does not become an ordinary player from superstar overnight without good reason .
What he would give to have an Aidan O Mahony , Paul Galvin , Tomas and Darragh on the same team . Every successful team has a few enforcers to keep things in order . That’s a reality . Have Kerry a player to stand up ? Ask David .
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Post by Lolly Valance on Jul 17, 2024 14:13:07 GMT
Darragh Ó Sé: Kerry’s style of play saps their energy. No wonder they looked gassed in extra-time
The first thing any Kerry person has to say about the weekend result is hats off to Armagh and to Kieran McGeeney.
Anyone who watched them in the Ulster final and elsewhere had to know that they are a team that has loads of brilliant kickers and if they brought that level of long-range point-taking to Croke Park, they were going to be a match for anyone. They are in the final and deservedly so. I’ll talk about them more next week.
But first, Kerry. It was obvious to everyone watching that Armagh had more energy and power about them coming towards the end of normal time and into extra-time. But I don’t buy the theory that Kerry weren’t fit enough. These fellas are in the middle of their career and they all have five, six, seven years of intercounty conditioning on them. Fitness isn’t the problem.
I think it’s more to do with how Kerry play. Jack O’Connor is going to have to come up with a more efficient way of moving the ball over the winter. Kerry looked gassed at the end of normal time on Saturday because they had spent the whole day running the ball up the pitch. That’s going to catch up with you eventually.
It starts with their kickout. Shane Ryan almost always plays it short, except when he’s forced to go long by the opposition pressing up. I presume the Kerry camp would say that possession is nine-tenths of the law and that short kickouts ensure they keep the ball. But at what cost?
The problem with every kickout going short is that your defenders have to do so much work, all the time, to get Kerry up the pitch. There’s no breather, mentally or physically. Short kickouts look great in the stats but think of what it means for the players involved.
If Ryan is taking a kickout, it means the opposition have just had a shot. That means the Kerry backs are after having to chase around trying to get in a tackle to prevent it. And now, straight away, they have to make a run to get a short kickout and start again. Realistically, they have to make multiple runs – three of four of them sprinting to get into space so one of them can get the ball.
Kerry's Jason Foley took Kerry’s first shot in extra-time and immediately went down with cramp after it went wide. The next problem is the fact that some of the Kerry backs aren’t overly big men. Tom O’Sullivan, Paul Murphy, even Jason Foley is no monster. Or let’s say Dara Moynihan, Tony Brosnan or Paudie Clifford drop back to help out and give an option. They’re all hardy boys, they’re all incredibly fit but you can’t coach size.
My point is, when they’re coming out with the ball after a short kickout, none of them are bursting through a tackle. They’d be silly to even try. And so they’re always having to go the long way around to avoid contact. That’s more yards to cover, more energy to spend, all to keep possession – and they probably haven’t even got out past their 45 yet.
This stuff adds up. If you do it 10, 15, 20 times in the first hour of a game, then you’re going to be gasping for air in the closing stages. Foley took Kerry’s first shot in extra-time and immediately went down with cramp after it went wide.
He spent the game either running for short kickouts or getting himself up into the full-forward position when Kerry had the ball. This is one of Kerry’s fittest players, an underage athletics champion. But he was goosed by then. Why?
I know I’m going to sound like an old dinosaur here but you can’t tell me that long kickouts have no place in a proper game plan anymore. There’s a reason armies use long-range missiles – they want to avoid hand-to-hand combat as much as possible.
I get the feeling that Jack doesn’t really trust his midfield over their heads. But he’s going to have to find a less energy-sapping way around that problem for 2025.
Jack would probably be wise too to not be letting it look like he’s blaming the small Kerry crowd for being outnumbered. Every one of us who ever played for Kerry knew the terms and conditions when we signed up. You don’t get big Kerry crowds unless it’s a Munster final or an All-Ireland final – and even a Munster final is a bit of a dead duck at this stage. There’s no point crying about it. It’s part of the gig and it’s always been a given. You deal with it and you move on.
Kerry’s defeat wasn’t down to the crowd. It was down to the fact that Armagh are a serious team, first and foremost. And even then, Kerry just made too many stupid mistakes. Tom O’Sullivan’s miss was unforgivable for a man of his skill and experience. It came down to him having no right leg – that’s not good enough in an All-Ireland semi-final. You have to finish a chance like that. Seven points up and it would have been game over, ball burst.
The other killer mistake was the goal Kerry conceded. Shane Ryan just can’t be making mistakes like that – you have to keep your eye on the ball, in every sense.
The other big problem Kerry have is that there has been very little evolution in the playing pool over the past few years. Killian Spillane was the first man off the bench to try to change the game in the drawn 2019 final against Dublin. Five years on and he was the first man off the bench again on Saturday.
Fifteen of the players who played in the replay against Dublin in 2019 were on the panel against Armagh – and I’d be fairly sure that if Jack Barry and David Moran were still available, they’d be there too.
For all his qualities as a manager, Jack never has much interest in future-proofing the business. He is a good man manager and very good tactically but he tends to make sure he has good tools to work with and then he works them until they’re done. If you were buying a used car off Jack, you could be sure the mileage would be high and the service history might not be hectic.
You see the likes of Dessie Farrell and Pádraic Joyce having the self-confidence to put up with relegation to Division Two and to develop new players while they’re down there. Whereas with Kerry, both Cliffords went away up to Monaghan in early February and both were on the pitch by the start of the second half. Kerry always seem to want to get wins on the board so that nobody starts cribbing at them too early in the year.
But the season is long and winning only really matters at the end of it. The winter is going to feel even longer down here.
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Post by Lolly Valance on Jul 17, 2024 14:13:29 GMT
Have to say its one of Darraghs best articles
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Post by whiteheat on Jul 17, 2024 14:58:25 GMT
I have to say, when I saw David and paudie coming on up in Monaghan I starting shaking my head. Same thing when mayo in league, had us under the the cosh and David saved the day again. it's in those moments where new players can show leadership or learn how to deal with pressure. Not just hand over responsiblity. joyce was lucky with Galway as he was forced in to it. Dublin generally get the right mix. Usually it's in defeats where you learn who you can really rely on. the team was robbed of these valuable experiences
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Post by glengael on Jul 17, 2024 15:15:16 GMT
The mental frailty stuff . I'm not sure about this . The other way of looking at this is that we are an incredibly difficult team to beat in a competitive era of football . When was the last time we got hammered out the gate and completely died in a Championship match ? 2024 - Lost in ET by 2 points 2023 - Lost by 2 in the All Ireland Final . Beat Derry by 2 in the Semi and Cork in the group by 2 in a game that mattered as we lost the first group game to Mayo . 2022- Won a AI by coming from behind in the second half , beat Dublin in the semi with the last kick . 2021 - Lost to Tyrone in the omni-farce COVID debacle . Arguably lost due to tactics more than anything else . Lost by 1. 2020- Kicked a heap wides in the pouring rain in November , lost in ET to an aimless shot. 2019 - Lost a replay to the greatest team ever to play the game . Beat Tyrone by 3 in the Semi . Drew a tight game with Donegal that could have went either way . 2018 - Drew with Monaghan somehow , played really poorly against Galway on a wet day and lost by 2 or 3. 2017 - deservedly beaten by Mayo in a Semi- Final Replay . Drew the first game somehow . 2016 - Lost to Dublin by 2 , they were better than us . 2015 - Lost the AI in the pouring rain , arguably a few things went against us but thought Dublin deserved it on balance by 3 . recall them hitting the post and Kealy making a good save in the second half that kept us in it. 2014- Won the AI , clutch stuff . Kieran O'Leary in the drawn semi , Jonathan Lyne in the replay . Donegal goalie made a mistake and we took advantage of it in the second half of the final . Are the Jim McGuiness teams weak in the mind ? no one would dare suggest it . 2013 - Lost a classic semi to a brilliant young Dublin team . 2012- Beaten by Donegal , brutal viewing , poor performance . Not sure if psychological . 2011 - Disaster . 2010- Maybe this was mental , we never got off the Bus for the Down game . Total systems failure and the only time in the last 15 years we were beaten easily in Croke Park. The issue for me there is that you're not comparing like with like. The 2010 team is very different team to the one that took the field last Saturday.
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Post by tralee58 on Jul 17, 2024 15:36:31 GMT
Darragh Ó Sé: Kerry’s style of play saps their energy. No wonder they looked gassed in extra-time
The first thing any Kerry person has to say about the weekend result is hats off to Armagh and to Kieran McGeeney. Anyone who watched them in the Ulster final and elsewhere had to know that they are a team that has loads of brilliant kickers and if they brought that level of long-range point-taking to Croke Park, they were going to be a match for anyone. They are in the final and deservedly so. I’ll talk about them more next week. But first, Kerry. It was obvious to everyone watching that Armagh had more energy and power about them coming towards the end of normal time and into extra-time. But I don’t buy the theory that Kerry weren’t fit enough. These fellas are in the middle of their career and they all have five, six, seven years of intercounty conditioning on them. Fitness isn’t the problem. I think it’s more to do with how Kerry play. Jack O’Connor is going to have to come up with a more efficient way of moving the ball over the winter. Kerry looked gassed at the end of normal time on Saturday because they had spent the whole day running the ball up the pitch. That’s going to catch up with you eventually. It starts with their kickout. Shane Ryan almost always plays it short, except when he’s forced to go long by the opposition pressing up. I presume the Kerry camp would say that possession is nine-tenths of the law and that short kickouts ensure they keep the ball. But at what cost? The problem with every kickout going short is that your defenders have to do so much work, all the time, to get Kerry up the pitch. There’s no breather, mentally or physically. Short kickouts look great in the stats but think of what it means for the players involved. If Ryan is taking a kickout, it means the opposition have just had a shot. That means the Kerry backs are after having to chase around trying to get in a tackle to prevent it. And now, straight away, they have to make a run to get a short kickout and start again. Realistically, they have to make multiple runs – three of four of them sprinting to get into space so one of them can get the ball. Kerry's Jason Foley took Kerry’s first shot in extra-time and immediately went down with cramp after it went wide. The next problem is the fact that some of the Kerry backs aren’t overly big men. Tom O’Sullivan, Paul Murphy, even Jason Foley is no monster. Or let’s say Dara Moynihan, Tony Brosnan or Paudie Clifford drop back to help out and give an option. They’re all hardy boys, they’re all incredibly fit but you can’t coach size. My point is, when they’re coming out with the ball after a short kickout, none of them are bursting through a tackle. They’d be silly to even try. And so they’re always having to go the long way around to avoid contact. That’s more yards to cover, more energy to spend, all to keep possession – and they probably haven’t even got out past their 45 yet. This stuff adds up. If you do it 10, 15, 20 times in the first hour of a game, then you’re going to be gasping for air in the closing stages. Foley took Kerry’s first shot in extra-time and immediately went down with cramp after it went wide. He spent the game either running for short kickouts or getting himself up into the full-forward position when Kerry had the ball. This is one of Kerry’s fittest players, an underage athletics champion. But he was goosed by then. Why? I know I’m going to sound like an old dinosaur here but you can’t tell me that long kickouts have no place in a proper game plan anymore. There’s a reason armies use long-range missiles – they want to avoid hand-to-hand combat as much as possible. I get the feeling that Jack doesn’t really trust his midfield over their heads. But he’s going to have to find a less energy-sapping way around that problem for 2025. Jack would probably be wise too to not be letting it look like he’s blaming the small Kerry crowd for being outnumbered. Every one of us who ever played for Kerry knew the terms and conditions when we signed up. You don’t get big Kerry crowds unless it’s a Munster final or an All-Ireland final – and even a Munster final is a bit of a dead duck at this stage. There’s no point crying about it. It’s part of the gig and it’s always been a given. You deal with it and you move on. Kerry’s defeat wasn’t down to the crowd. It was down to the fact that Armagh are a serious team, first and foremost. And even then, Kerry just made too many stupid mistakes. Tom O’Sullivan’s miss was unforgivable for a man of his skill and experience. It came down to him having no right leg – that’s not good enough in an All-Ireland semi-final. You have to finish a chance like that. Seven points up and it would have been game over, ball burst. The other killer mistake was the goal Kerry conceded. Shane Ryan just can’t be making mistakes like that – you have to keep your eye on the ball, in every sense. The other big problem Kerry have is that there has been very little evolution in the playing pool over the past few years. Killian Spillane was the first man off the bench to try to change the game in the drawn 2019 final against Dublin. Five years on and he was the first man off the bench again on Saturday. Fifteen of the players who played in the replay against Dublin in 2019 were on the panel against Armagh – and I’d be fairly sure that if Jack Barry and David Moran were still available, they’d be there too. For all his qualities as a manager, Jack never has much interest in future-proofing the business. He is a good man manager and very good tactically but he tends to make sure he has good tools to work with and then he works them until they’re done. If you were buying a used car off Jack, you could be sure the mileage would be high and the service history might not be hectic. You see the likes of Dessie Farrell and Pádraic Joyce having the self-confidence to put up with relegation to Division Two and to develop new players while they’re down there. Whereas with Kerry, both Cliffords went away up to Monaghan in early February and both were on the pitch by the start of the second half. Kerry always seem to want to get wins on the board so that nobody starts cribbing at them too early in the year. But the season is long and winning only really matters at the end of it. The winter is going to feel even longer down here. Good article learned a lot. From watching Kerry in the 70s, the balance between Spartan and skill was apparent. Skill is still there but Spartan no, just my opinion. Dubz had it Kerry have showed it for sure over past years. Complaints over DC treatment ? When you get 15 players who refuse to bow to any skulduggery etc it is resolved quickly. It’s in this current squad but went missing Saturday. A bloody mindness to demonstrate their true potential and remind themselves that they all stand on shoulders of giants. Fact
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Post by southward on Jul 17, 2024 17:29:18 GMT
It's fine saying players should have waded in when DC was getting the treatment. The thing is though, we know what's going to happen then - a Kerryman or two is going to get put off the pitch. Sure look who's reffing and look at who's on the sideline - wouldn't they just love the excuse? Dublin might get away with that, we wouldn't. Then what would people be saying?- fellas lost their cool, their discipline, Kerry thuggery etc.
In any case, it's no excuse for one-sided officiating.
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Post by royalkerryfan on Jul 17, 2024 17:52:03 GMT
Have to say its one of Darraghs best articles Yes a very interesting article and he even throwing a few digs. What he wrote makes sense but many of us spoke of this lethargic slow system all year before we lost.Why did nt Darragh brings this up before the Armagh game. We were worse during the Derry game.It is easy be wise after the fact.Also I think he was overly harsh on Shane Ryan and Tom Sullivan in particular saying "Tom O Sullivans miss was unforgiveable for a man of his skill and experience.it came down to him having no right leg-thats not good enough in an All Ireland semi final. Darragh also says Shane Ryan has to keep his eye on the ball.We all know that and Shane more than anyone.He also threw a few digs at Jack re blaming support and more or less saying Jack is nt interested in the future and "he tends to make sure he has good tools to work with and then he works them till they re done." While my own view is Jack is better taking over ripe teams I thought Darragh was a tad harsh as he played under Jack. P.S.Was Darragh giving out about the Cliffords going to Monaghan in February? Finally saying Dessie Farrell and Paraic Joyce have the self confidence to put up with relegation is ridiculous.Neither manager wanted to be relegated. You're always having a cut at the OSés he's forgotten more about football than you or I. He's absolutely spot on and I suspect if he starting Yerraing you'd take issue with that aswell.
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Post by royalkerryfan on Jul 17, 2024 19:59:29 GMT
You're always having a cut at the OSés he's forgotten more about football than you or I. He's absolutely spot on and I suspect if he starting Yerraing you'd take issue with that aswell. Wow you ve changed your tune. You did nt rate Armagh but now you agree with Darragh that they are a serious team and deserved to win. You hate players being blamed but Darragh blames Tom O Sullivan and Shane Ryan and you say "he is absolutely spot on". Darragh reckons Jack takes on teams that can win and leaves a wreck after him but "he is absolutely spot on". Some of what Darragh said is what many of us here said more or less during the year and we did it before we lost.Darragh says it after the event and "he is absolutely spot on" The difference between Darragh and Me is that he earned the right to critise the team he fought for. As for not rating Armagh I didn't and I don't. They won because we made two fundamental errors. We were the better team for 55 minutes. No you've a terrible habit of winding fellas up since you joined here, Always giving the non Kerry view. Eventually you'll be talking to yourself as you'll be muted by everyone.
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Post by royalkerryfan on Jul 17, 2024 20:28:55 GMT
The difference between Darragh and Me is that he earned the right to critise the team he fought for. As for not rating Armagh I didn't and I don't. They won because we made two fundamental errors. We were the better team for 55 minutes. No you've a terrible habit of winding fellas up since you joined here, Always giving the non Kerry view. Eventually you'll be talking to yourself as you'll be muted by everyone. Oh so its ok for some to criticise but not others.As for the mute button,dont worry sure I ll have you to respond anyway.The other thing I like about this forum is the private messages and I get few from posters that really agree with some of my views.One thing om confused about is you said Darragh was spot on in his views but now you change again and dont rate Armagh.Read Darraghs post again. He was right re his critisim of Kerry. You are incredibly condescending and always find a way to give the alternative view. This is a Kerry forum we don't need the "Well I once saw a Kerry player do this or that " gets repetitive. End of. Muted..
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Post by kerry97 on Jul 17, 2024 20:39:47 GMT
The mental frailty stuff . I'm not sure about this . The other way of looking at this is that we are an incredibly difficult team to beat in a competitive era of football . When was the last time we got hammered out the gate and completely died in a Championship match ? 2024 - Lost in ET by 2 points 2023 - Lost by 2 in the All Ireland Final . Beat Derry by 2 in the Semi and Cork in the group by 2 in a game that mattered as we lost the first group game to Mayo . 2022- Won a AI by coming from behind in the second half , beat Dublin in the semi with the last kick . 2021 - Lost to Tyrone in the omni-farce COVID debacle . Arguably lost due to tactics more than anything else . Lost by 1. 2020- Kicked a heap wides in the pouring rain in November , lost in ET to an aimless shot. 2019 - Lost a replay to the greatest team ever to play the game . Beat Tyrone by 3 in the Semi . Drew a tight game with Donegal that could have went either way . 2018 - Drew with Monaghan somehow , played really poorly against Galway on a wet day and lost by 2 or 3. 2017 - deservedly beaten by Mayo in a Semi- Final Replay . Drew the first game somehow . 2016 - Lost to Dublin by 2 , they were better than us . 2015 - Lost the AI in the pouring rain , arguably a few things went against us but thought Dublin deserved it on balance by 3 . recall them hitting the post and Kealy making a good save in the second half that kept us in it. 2014- Won the AI , clutch stuff . Kieran O'Leary in the drawn semi , Jonathan Lyne in the replay . Donegal goalie made a mistake and we took advantage of it in the second half of the final . Are the Jim McGuiness teams weak in the mind ? no one would dare suggest it . 2013 - Lost a classic semi to a brilliant young Dublin team . 2012- Beaten by Donegal , brutal viewing , poor performance . Not sure if psychological . 2011 - Disaster . 2010- Maybe this was mental , we never got off the Bus for the Down game . Total systems failure and the only time in the last 15 years we were beaten easily in Croke Park. The issue for me there is that you're not comparing like with like. The 2010 team is very different team to the one that took the field last Saturday. I agree , I referenced back to 2010 due to the Examiner article inferring that the issue was a long run one. If you look at the Darragh O'Se article in the Irish Times he states that 15 of the panel from 2019 were available on Saturday evening but I think the idea that the team are menatally frail is a subjective perspective . My perspective is that we are an incredibly difficult team to beat . That may be rose tinted and overly positive for some but it's how I would look at it. With that in mind I didn't think we were mentally frail in 2019 , in 2020 we lost to a fluky goal in a Championship played in October/November and December. 2021 remains tactical in my view . We won the AI in 2022 with hard fought wins in the Semi and the final . I recall Cillian McDaid kicking a monster score with 20 or so minutes to go to put them 2 up and I thought we were in trouble but we dug it out . Last year we won a really tight game in the Semi-Final playing as a strong favorite, had we been mentally frail I don't think we would have dug it out. On the errors they have been costly in both the last two years and shifted momentum in both games but I'm not sure they are down mental frailty . Shane Ryan has been brilliant for years and every once in a while a goalie will make a blunder , that's football . Mistakes are magnified and the save he made in the first half has barely been mentioned . Had that gone in, would the momentum have shifted earlier in the game? Would we have lost by five or six points?. The teams character would suggest that wouldn't of happened . The mistake in the final last year was disappointing but that's the style of football we play , surprisingly similar in many ways to 2011 . The players have to take risks and they have to be encouraged to do so . The way the game has gone you have to attack and defend as a fifteen , the tactics demand we move the ball out of defence by hand primarily and occasionally someone gets caught . I think our issues are more of a tactical nature than anything else , I think some posters highlighted we aren't particularly proactive with regard to tactical changes and tend to be reactive .
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pillar
Senior Member
Posts: 537
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Post by pillar on Jul 18, 2024 9:42:12 GMT
Yes a very interesting article and he even throwing a few digs. What he wrote makes sense but many of us spoke of this lethargic slow system all year before we lost.Why did nt Darragh brings this up before the Armagh game. We were worse during the Derry game.It is easy be wise after the fact.Also I think he was overly harsh on Shane Ryan and Tom Sullivan in particular saying "Tom O Sullivans miss was unforgiveable for a man of his skill and experience.it came down to him having no right leg-thats not good enough in an All Ireland semi final. Darragh also says Shane Ryan has to keep his eye on the ball.We all know that and Shane more than anyone.He also threw a few digs at Jack re blaming support and more or less saying Jack is nt interested in the future and "he tends to make sure he has good tools to work with and then he works them till they re done." While my own view is Jack is better taking over ripe teams I thought Darragh was a tad harsh as he played under Jack. P.S.Was Darragh giving out about the Cliffords going to Monaghan in February? Finally saying Dessie Farrell and Paraic Joyce have the self confidence to put up with relegation is ridiculous.Neither manager wanted to be relegated. You're always having a cut at the OSés he's forgotten more about football than you or I. He's absolutely spot on and I suspect if he starting Yerraing you'd take issue with that aswell. Is this article the start of a movement to get a change in management. A rebuild is needed and Jack is heading into his final year. Could we be lining up someone to take over?
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Post by damarys on Jul 18, 2024 9:51:10 GMT
I was at the monaghan game and I couldn,t believe he was bringing David on after 25 mins!For me it smelled of fear from Jack.In my opinion he was saying ...David (and Paudie) go in there and rescue the situation,I can't trust these other 13 players.By doing this he reinforces the idea that kerry are nothing without the Clifford boys,heaps more pressure on the 2 boys while at the same time undermining the other entire panel.He doesn,t trust his players,he doesn,t cultivate trust and I now wonder if the players don,t trust the management team.Let the team dig out results or not without the Clifford boys and he and they may learn valuable lessons.As an example Graham O Sullivan was 3rd choice corner back behind Paul,Dan O Donoghue, and another but through injury he got his start and in my opinion has been Kerry,s most consistent player for the past 3 years.Ahead of the Cliffords in my opinion.
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pony
Senior Member
Posts: 391
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Post by pony on Jul 18, 2024 10:25:11 GMT
It's fine saying players should have waded in when DC was getting the treatment. The thing is though, we know what's going to happen then - a Kerryman or two is going to get put off the pitch. Sure look who's reffing and look at who's on the sideline - wouldn't they just love the excuse? Dublin might get away with that, we wouldn't. Then what would people be saying?- fellas lost their cool, their discipline, Kerry thuggery etc. In any case, it's no excuse for one-sided officiating. Yup, 3rd man in will get a straight red, that's the worry, and I'd imagine is the aim of the aggressors. Every team does it, but what went on before the throw-in Saturday was beyond the norm in my opinion, and all in full view of the umpires! Very frustrating when a few tap over frees were given the other end. Should Seanie and David etc. throw themselves down? Gives the ref a decision to make? Even though the ref would most likely just throw the ball in. They did well to keep their cool anyway, and fair play to them.
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Post by tralee58 on Jul 18, 2024 11:54:32 GMT
Kerry v Tyrone 2023 quarter final is the game I saw big change in mindset. Bit of that on Saturday you be looking forward to a final IMHO. However wish Armagh all the best may the best team on the day win hopefully by scoring some goals too
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