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Post by legendz on Nov 17, 2023 17:16:38 GMT
I suppose 3 groups of 4 reduce fits the current 6 week timescale at intermediate. Relegation is a bit tricky but I suppose the better two 4th placed teams should go into an intermediate relegation semi-final. In the senior club championship, only 2 of 3 4th placed teams could theoretically make the County Final. The alone 4th placed team not to make the county final could be automatically relegated in that case. Otherwise all 4th placed teams not to make the county final enter relegation semi-final if needed or relegation final. If the 12 senior clubs all go into the County Championship last 16, the 8 divisional clubs would have to contest a qualifying round. 1. Club championships Group Round 1 2. Club championships Group Round 2 3. Club championships Group Round 3 4. Club championships quarter-finals 5. Club championships semi-finals 6. Club championships finals 7. Divisional qualifying round. 8. County Championship Round of 16 9. County Championship quarter-finals 10. County Championship semi-finals 11. County Final. Would 4 groups of 3 not work better. Makes relegation very easy with the bottom 4 teams going into semis. Top team gets a home quarter final, 2nd team is away. Very clean system. 2 games guaranteed. 1 rest week for teams. Benefits of winning 2 games with home advantage I can't see groups of 3 gaining support. A team can lose 2 games and their opponents will know the favourable result to be safe.
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Post by shannonsider on Nov 17, 2023 17:27:24 GMT
That doesn’t really make sense and imbalances the lower levels aswell I would say? Which is why the motion to make Intermediate a 12 team competition along with Senior club is being brought forward possibly. Probably makes it more likely that you’d have 12 Senior, 12 Intermediate, 16 in Prem Junior and Junior down the line. I think the proposal is to do it on a phased basis. In theory for 2024 if you had the following: Senior Dingle, Crokes, Rathmore, Kenmare, Na Gaeil, Spa, Templenoe, Rahillys, Fossa, Miltown-Castle, Stacks, Legion Intermediate Glenflesk, Desmond’s, Listowel, Gneevguilla, Glenbeigh-Glencar, Beaufort, Gaeltacht, Kilcummin, St Mary’s, Laune Rangers, John Mitchels, Ballydonoghue Premier Junior Currow Ballymac Ardfert Annascaul Dromid Pearses Churchill Renard Firies Listry Keel Waterville Brosna Castlegregory St Senans Ballyduff St Pats Junior Portmagee Tarbert Beale Sneem-Derrynane Bally-Foilmore Moyvane Scartaglen Cordal Cromane Knocknagoshel Duagh Lispole Valentia Finuge Kilgarvan Asdee (Ballylongford badly need to agree an amalgamation with Asdee to get back into things but that’s another story) Looks like 4 very competitive grades of football there to me. We just need for the proposal for Senior championship to get approved by Croke park. Why would you say it imbalances the lower tiers but doesn’t imbalance the intermediate? Under this system it goes 12,16,16,12. Whereas with yours it goes 12,12,16,16. Not much of a difference but I do feel that the premier junior clubs are still a behemoth every year they come out of Kerry. It should be an achievement for them to progress further, not a given as has been the case. Readdressing the balance would do that To be fair, it's hard to find the exact formula. I don't think Tarbert, Sneem-Derrynane are good enough to be Premier Junior really right now. Then again you could say the same about a few teams in each level possibly.
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Premier
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Post by Premier on Nov 17, 2023 17:53:59 GMT
Why would you say it imbalances the lower tiers but doesn’t imbalance the intermediate? Under this system it goes 12,16,16,12. Whereas with yours it goes 12,12,16,16. Not much of a difference but I do feel that the premier junior clubs are still a behemoth every year they come out of Kerry. It should be an achievement for them to progress further, not a given as has been the case. Readdressing the balance would do that To be fair, it's hard to find the exact formula. I don't think Tarbert, Sneem-Derrynane are good enough to be Premier Junior really right now. Then again you could say the same about a few teams in each level possibly. Tarbert are in Division 3 next year and asides from a horrific showing against Renard, seen to be going in the right direction. Fair enough about Sneem/Derrynane but if it was St Michael’s/Foilmore instead would that make you more in favour of the move. Arguably Ballymac/Ardfert are too strong for premier junior
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mossie
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Post by mossie on Nov 18, 2023 18:13:23 GMT
I've already mentioned my main concern with the structures resulting in too many games. But surely the elephant in the room is 2 senior championships squeezed into 4 months. You are talking sense. the number of senior clubs is one debate, the number of championship matches across the club and county championship is another but linked I am not sure we are doing our inter county players any benefit with all the round robins We are also doing our best to squeeze out the dual player out of existence, just get the hurling out of the way for the sake of 2 football championships Is there anything wrong with one of the football champonships becoming knock out?
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Post by legendz on Nov 18, 2023 18:52:08 GMT
I've already mentioned my main concern with the structures resulting in too many games. But surely the elephant in the room is 2 senior championships squeezed into 4 months. You are talking sense. the number of senior clubs is one debate, the number of championship matches across the club and county championship is another but linked I am not sure we are doing our inter county players any benefit with all the round robins We are also doing our best to squeeze out the dual player out of existence, just get the hurling out of the way for the sake of 2 football championships Is there anything wrong with one of the football champonships becoming knock out? The County Championship should be knockout. Senior clubs have already had a group stage. Divisional club players have already had a group stage with their clubs.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 18, 2023 21:25:19 GMT
On the too many games debate- it’s a while since I played club football but even back then there were no weekends off so if you weren’t playing a game then you were training.
I’d wager that most players would prefer matches to training so the Brian Sheehan opinion above would most likely be echoed by many
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Post by shannonsider on Nov 18, 2023 22:42:11 GMT
You are talking sense. the number of senior clubs is one debate, the number of championship matches across the club and county championship is another but linked I am not sure we are doing our inter county players any benefit with all the round robins We are also doing our best to squeeze out the dual player out of existence, just get the hurling out of the way for the sake of 2 football championships Is there anything wrong with one of the football champonships becoming knock out? The County Championship should be knockout. Senior clubs have already had a group stage. Divisional club players have already had a group stage with their clubs. The Senior club championship having 1 back door game and County Senior championship the same makes far more sense. Asking divisional teams to prepare with limited time for 1 knockout game isn’t giving them a chance.
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Post by legendz on Nov 19, 2023 9:07:18 GMT
The County Championship should be knockout. Senior clubs have already had a group stage. Divisional club players have already had a group stage with their clubs. The Senior club championship having 1 back door game and County Senior championship the same makes far more sense. Asking divisional teams to prepare with limited time for 1 knockout game isn’t giving them a chance. With 8 senior clubs, the double elimination format is easily implemented. 12 clubs will change that. I agree it isn't totally ideal for divisional clubs go go straight into knockout but something has to give. Divisional players will already have gotten game time with their clubs. If divisional clubs are meeting in a qualifying round, they are all in the same position at least and whoever advances will have the game under their belts. Divisional clubs don't have to worry about relegation, the trade off then being into straight knockout.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 19, 2023 10:22:27 GMT
The Senior club championship having 1 back door game and County Senior championship the same makes far more sense. Asking divisional teams to prepare with limited time for 1 knockout game isn’t giving them a chance. With 8 senior clubs, the double elimination format is easily implemented. 12 clubs will change that. I agree it isn't totally ideal for divisional clubs go go straight into knockout but something has to give. Divisional players will already have gotten game time with their clubs. If divisional clubs are meeting in a qualifying round, they are all in the same position at least and whoever advances will have the game under their belts. Divisional clubs don't have to worry about relegation, the trade off then being into straight knockout. This last point feels like sense.
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Post by hurlingman on Nov 19, 2023 11:29:51 GMT
To be fair, it's hard to find the exact formula. I don't think Tarbert, Sneem-Derrynane are good enough to be Premier Junior really right now. Then again you could say the same about a few teams in each level possibly. Tarbert are in Division 3 next year and asides from a horrific showing against Renard, seen to be going in the right direction. Fair enough about Sneem/Derrynane but if it was St Michael’s/Foilmore instead would that make you more in favour of the move. Arguably Ballymac/Ardfert are too strong for premier junior Where does this idea of teams bring too strong for a grade come from? If Ballymac were too strong for Premier Junior they'd have won it this year.
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horsebox77
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Post by horsebox77 on Nov 19, 2023 18:48:27 GMT
Castlemaine resut has totally totally put the nail in the county championship coffin.... only team throwing any shapes to challenge EK was Mid Kerry and everyone expected Fossa to go senior and half level the playing field.... it has now flipped the other direct, with the only decent challenger in Mid Kerry being broken up and losing Castlemaine... I'd say the Co Board are bulling .. bad to worse...
Well done Castlemaine though, played great ball,
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 19, 2023 19:50:18 GMT
Castlemaine resut has totally totally put the nail in the county championship coffin.... only team throwing any shapes to challenge EK was Mid Kerry and everyone expected Fossa to go senior and half level the playing field.... it has now flipped the other direct, with the only decent challenger in Mid Kerry being broken up and losing Castlemaine... I'd say the Co Board are bulling .. bad to worse... Well done Castlemaine though, played great ball, Absolutely, a fossa win was the get out of jail free card
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Post by royalkerryfan on Nov 19, 2023 20:06:53 GMT
Castlemaine resut has totally totally put the nail in the county championship coffin.... only team throwing any shapes to challenge EK was Mid Kerry and everyone expected Fossa to go senior and half level the playing field.... it has now flipped the other direct, with the only decent challenger in Mid Kerry being broken up and losing Castlemaine... I'd say the Co Board are bulling .. bad to worse... Well done Castlemaine though, played great ball, Absolutely, a fossa win was the get out of jail free card Being honest lads and leaving the fairytale romance of the Fossa story aside. Take the two lads out of that team and they really aren't a senior team. Castlemaine had class in every line today.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 19, 2023 20:29:25 GMT
Absolutely, a fossa win was the get out of jail free card Being honest lads and leaving the fairytale romance of the Fossa story aside. Take the two lads out of that team and they really aren't a senior team. Castlemaine had class in every line today. I fully agree and I didn’t expect them to win today but I’ve never been a fan of the ‘take them out of the team’ argument as we could say that about every club. They do have them and Kerry have them too which we should be thankful for
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Post by royalkerryfan on Nov 19, 2023 20:42:36 GMT
Being honest lads and leaving the fairytale romance of the Fossa story aside. Take the two lads out of that team and they really aren't a senior team. Castlemaine had class in every line today. I fully agree and I didn’t expect them to win today but I’ve never been a fan of the ‘take them out of the team’ argument as we could say that about every club. They do have them and Kerry have them too which we should be thankful for That's a fair point, I really admire them as a club and it's a remarkable journey. But as a Kerry fan I'm glad they get a break now.
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Post by anriochtabu23 on Nov 19, 2023 21:17:02 GMT
Those lads need a break if even for probably just a month before they start again with Kerry. I thought Cillian Burke overcarried before the goal but MC deserved it overall.
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Post by legendz on Nov 19, 2023 21:27:54 GMT
Will Fossa, KOR, Stacks and Legion be regraded to senior if the CB press ahead with an expansion to 12?
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Premier
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Post by Premier on Nov 19, 2023 23:14:39 GMT
Will Fossa, KOR, Stacks and Legion be regraded to senior if the CB press ahead with an expansion to 12? Surely, we can’t go through the torture of another county championship with the best pretenders now realistically out of the reckoning. These changes will have to be made in the off season and soon so teams can plan
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Post by edgeofthesquare on Nov 19, 2023 23:41:36 GMT
Splitting East Kerry into 2 creating an Eoghan Ruadh side (Kilcummin, Glenflesk, Gneeveguilla and Kilgarvan) leaving East Kerry with Fossa, Legion, Firies and Listry) and merging Feale and Shannon Rangers to keep the number of divisional teams at 8 would make the county championship very exciting again. Both East Kerry teams, North Kerry, Mid Kerry less Milltown and Brendans if they got it together would all be of a very similar level and also all would be beatable for a top club side like Dingle.
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Post by homerj on Nov 20, 2023 10:04:43 GMT
apparently something will be discussed/voted on/announced this week?
what ye think is the most likely?
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 20, 2023 10:27:06 GMT
Splitting East Kerry into 2 creating an Eoghan Ruadh side (Kilcummin, Glenflesk, Gneeveguilla and Kilgarvan) leaving East Kerry with Fossa, Legion, Firies and Listry) and merging Feale and Shannon Rangers to keep the number of divisional teams at 8 would make the county championship very exciting again. Both East Kerry teams, North Kerry, Mid Kerry less Milltown and Brendans if they got it together would all be of a very similar level and also all would be beatable for a top club side like Dingle. I have suggested something similar in the past so agree with the above. I do however still like the idea of a separate divisional qualifying section as some of the divisional teams need a few games to get going. A perfect example would the Brendan’s this year who got worse even though they got the stacks players - as they had little or no time to prepare
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Post by shannonsider on Nov 20, 2023 11:06:37 GMT
Splitting East Kerry into 2 creating an Eoghan Ruadh side (Kilcummin, Glenflesk, Gneeveguilla and Kilgarvan) leaving East Kerry with Fossa, Legion, Firies and Listry) and merging Feale and Shannon Rangers to keep the number of divisional teams at 8 would make the county championship very exciting again. Both East Kerry teams, North Kerry, Mid Kerry less Milltown and Brendans if they got it together would all be of a very similar level and also all would be beatable for a top club side like Dingle. Some would call it radical but that actually makes a lot of sense. Definitely 1 North Kerry team is badly needed. Most people in the district even acknowledge that so I don’t know why that isn’t happening already. East Kerry splitting would cause some consternation but both those teams would be competitive. East Kerry and Eoghan Ruadh teams were entered in u15 championship this year so there’s some people in East Kerry with a bit of foresight and a progressive attitude. Can a bigger step be taken? The county board should make a formal request on it as if nothing changes most teams will face into the Senior championship next year with little hope.
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Post by homerj on Nov 20, 2023 11:19:53 GMT
defo needs 12 senior teams with 8 divisional teams seperate -they play each other round robin giving them all a chance to prepare equally.
3 groups of 4 in the club, making 3 X 2 qualifying for 1/4 final and thus, top 2 divisional teams join them. you can also do 4 and 4 and so on.
defo needs a few free weeks to allow divisional teams a clear run at it.
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Post by legendz on Nov 20, 2023 15:37:28 GMT
defo needs 12 senior teams with 8 divisional teams seperate -they play each other round robin giving them all a chance to prepare equally. 3 groups of 4 in the club, making 3 X 2 qualifying for 1/4 final and thus, top 2 divisional teams join them. you can also do 4 and 4 and so on. defo needs a few free weeks to allow divisional teams a clear run at it. Divisional clubs don't need a round robin. Divisional players already get a round robin with their clubs. 8 divisional clubs just need to enter a qualifying round, with the 4 winners joining 12 senior clubs in straight knockout from 16 onwards.
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Post by homerj on Nov 20, 2023 18:47:01 GMT
defo needs 12 senior teams with 8 divisional teams seperate -they play each other round robin giving them all a chance to prepare equally. 3 groups of 4 in the club, making 3 X 2 qualifying for 1/4 final and thus, top 2 divisional teams join them. you can also do 4 and 4 and so on. defo needs a few free weeks to allow divisional teams a clear run at it. Divisional clubs don't need a round robin. Divisional players already get a round robin with their clubs. 8 divisional clubs just need to enter a qualifying round, with the 4 winners joining 12 senior clubs in straight knockout from 16 onwards. So why need a senior club championship then!? Last standing 2 teams in it, lay off represent kerry in Munster if divisional team wins it so don't need both.
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Post by shannonsider on Nov 20, 2023 22:09:38 GMT
defo needs 12 senior teams with 8 divisional teams seperate -they play each other round robin giving them all a chance to prepare equally. 3 groups of 4 in the club, making 3 X 2 qualifying for 1/4 final and thus, top 2 divisional teams join them. you can also do 4 and 4 and so on. defo needs a few free weeks to allow divisional teams a clear run at it. Divisional clubs don't need a round robin. Divisional players already get a round robin with their clubs. 8 divisional clubs just need to enter a qualifying round, with the 4 winners joining 12 senior clubs in straight knockout from 16 onwards. Seriously that’s a very childish statement. Playing with a divisional team, if going about it properly, means gelling lads from different clubs together who don’t know each other that well necessarily. You cannot just turn up on a given day, pick a team and play. It won’t go well. St Brendan’s v Na Gaeil a prime example. Or what Shannon Rangers have done for most of last few years. South Kerry, St Kieran’s intermittently and obviously East Kerry have provided examples of how to do it over the years. Hence you need to give Divisions 2 games at least. The time they put into it before that depends on the clubs involved and other factors.
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Post by homerj on Nov 21, 2023 0:00:29 GMT
biggest problem with county championship is the fact that the club championships are run off for 3 or 4 weeks before it, allowing no time whatsoever for the divisional teams to get organised. by the time it gets to the semi finals stage of those, clubs who know that EK are going to win it anyway,just dont give a s*ite anymore and just focus on winning their own club title
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Post by onlykerry on Nov 21, 2023 10:28:39 GMT
Divisional sides have always been "slow starters" in the county championship. My memory stretches back to the 70's and the conventional wisdom has been divisional sides are particularly vulnerable in the earlier stages of the county championship - perhaps the current schedule exacerbates this but it is not the cause. The perceived strength of a division is a greater motivation in how well and how quickly they get organised and this can fluctuate. Sadly some divisions simply go through the motions of pulling a team together when their prospects are low and this riles the clubs who have lost out with the reduction in the club contingent to 8 (from the traditional 10-12). If the county championship is to maintain its status and credibility a better balance between clubs and divisions needs to be found whereby no participant in the county championship is there other than on merit.
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horsebox77
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Post by horsebox77 on Nov 21, 2023 11:54:25 GMT
tonight will tell a lot, including the vote on de-coupling and the decision to remain odd or return to even ages. Initially there was a serious preference for the odd ages, however, talk no is it will be a hell of a lot closer than expected.
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Post by shannonsider on Nov 21, 2023 12:16:40 GMT
tonight will tell a lot, including the vote on de-coupling and the decision to remain odd or return to even ages. Initially there was a serious preference for the odd ages, however, talk no is it will be a hell of a lot closer than expected. Is there a vote tonight on minor etc? They kept that fairly quiet? I think most clubs will do anything to avoid a scenario of 18 year olds not being available to play so I’m not sure if there’s a solution allowing a return to u18 for minor. I’d much prefer minor was U18 and no decoupling. Bring in a rule that a minor can’t play more than 2 games in 7 days and must have 3 days between games at least if needed but fixing all adult games for weekends and minor for Wednesdays would solve a lot of it.
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