kerryexile
Fanatical Member
Whether you believe that you can, or that you can't, you are right anyway.
Posts: 1,126
|
Post by kerryexile on Mar 2, 2024 23:00:39 GMT
I thought this evening's game was a basic league game. Sean Cavanagh said that Mickey Hart was trying a lot of reserves and that it didn't work for them. Nothing to be scared of. Dublin are showing what they are working on. They are back to crowding their own square when defending, recycling corner back to wing, across the half forward line. Their most reliable players are the old ones Kilkenny, Costello. There is much more to the Dubs than the "old ones"Lee Gannon and Sean Bugler now top class players.Ross McGarry a tireless worker.Cian Murphy solid at back.Dubs are bringing in new players all the time.Thats what a few of us wanted Jack to do during McGrath cup. Mick, as it happens Costello got their only goal, Kilkenny was their leading point scorer with 4 points. Con O'Callaghan 1 point from play. Derry were very poor and Dublin dominated so other players got random points over the 70 minutes to build up the score. No need for panic.
|
|
|
Post by colinsworth1 on Mar 7, 2024 0:12:30 GMT
Hope the new rules committee bring in the 45 M line rule Whereby once the attacking team cross it going forward then they can’t go back outside it again
Reason The viewers are excited and tuned in when the ball is inside the 45 the killer for the fans s is when the attacking team fears a roadblock and they tamely pass it out accross the 45 going back field to about the half way put everybody to sleep and then try to go down the other wing and often repeat the dose
This was a huge tactic of Jim Gavin’s Dublin and still is for Dublin Hope Jim uses this intrinsic knowledge To now right the wrongs And remove that tactic which worked so brilliantly for him but worse than any blanket defense takes the fans out of the game completely Just as a neutral turn in the TV and watch a game where your own team is not involved and Gauge your own experience of enjoyment of the game as you watch the attacking team play keep ball by going backwards over the 45 and thus removing all the man to man contests that we love to watch this is why fans are leaving in the droves
|
|
|
Post by thehermit on Mar 7, 2024 9:40:11 GMT
Yes I'm a bit sceptical of a man who is so responsible for how turgid modern football has become heading this rules committee, might as well bring Jim McGuinness on to it as well!!
|
|
|
Post by jerryewe on Mar 7, 2024 13:49:59 GMT
Hope the new rules committee bring in the 45 M line rule Whereby once the attacking team cross it going forward then they can’t go back outside it again Reason The viewers are excited and tuned in when the ball is inside the 45 the killer for the fans s is when the attacking team fears a roadblock and they tamely pass it out accross the 45 going back field to about the half way put everybody to sleep and then try to go down the other wing and often repeat the dose This was a huge tactic of Jim Gavin’s Dublin and still is for Dublin Hope Jim uses this intrinsic knowledge To now right the wrongs And remove that tactic which worked so brilliantly for him but worse than any blanket defense takes the fans out of the game completely Just as a neutral turn in the TV and watch a game where your own team is not involved and Gauge your own experience of enjoyment of the game as you watch the attacking team play keep ball by going backwards over the 45 and thus removing all the man to man contests that we love to watch this is why fans are leaving in the droves I’d like to see something like this trialed as well but I would make 2 changes to this. 1. I would have it have come into effect once you bring the ball across your own 45. 2. I would allow the ball go back a single line in the field I.e once you go across your own 45 you can’t take it back inside your own 21, if you take it past your own 65, you can’t take it back past your own 45 and continue that all the way up the field. I think Colinsworth1 proposal would just lead to team trying to trap teams just inside the 45 and the attacking team being even more cautious.
|
|
keane
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,267
|
Post by keane on Mar 7, 2024 13:54:32 GMT
You don't incentivize attacking football by limiting what the attacking team are allowed to do.
|
|
|
Post by john4 on Mar 7, 2024 14:28:23 GMT
Hope the new rules committee bring in the 45 M line rule Whereby once the attacking team cross it going forward then they can’t go back outside it again Reason The viewers are excited and tuned in when the ball is inside the 45 the killer for the fans s is when the attacking team fears a roadblock and they tamely pass it out accross the 45 going back field to about the half way put everybody to sleep and then try to go down the other wing and often repeat the dose This was a huge tactic of Jim Gavin’s Dublin and still is for Dublin Hope Jim uses this intrinsic knowledge To now right the wrongs And remove that tactic which worked so brilliantly for him but worse than any blanket defense takes the fans out of the game completely Just as a neutral turn in the TV and watch a game where your own team is not involved and Gauge your own experience of enjoyment of the game as you watch the attacking team play keep ball by going backwards over the 45 and thus removing all the man to man contests that we love to watch this is why fans are leaving in the droves Would be a positive in fairness. The biggest issue would be, is it not just enforceable but fairly and correctly enforced. Fine in big matches with linesmen but the vast majority of matches have only a ref, on his own. You'd have 2 fellas from each team standing on both 45's roaring at the ref for an hour. It's hard enough to attract fellas into reffing. This wouldn't be an incentive
|
|
|
Post by jerryewe on Mar 7, 2024 15:07:06 GMT
You don't incentivize attacking football by limiting what the attacking team are allowed to do. I agree with this statement. However the problem right now is that teams can hold onto ball around the middle of field and pass backwards & forwards without any pressure on them. The defensive team has no incentive to put the attacking team under pressure so it just leads to a stalemate around middle of field and leads to lack of atmosphere people have been mentioning. If the defensive is encourage to push up and challenge the team holding onto ball with the possible reward of a turnover, this could lead more tackling and pressure around middle of field. If players do push out it will lead to more space inside further forward as well which may lead to more progressive football.
|
|
|
Post by kerry97 on Mar 7, 2024 17:38:08 GMT
I sometimes think if we went 13 a side it might create more space but then the counter is that coaches will probably take up a 12 up/ 12 down approach and will still ultimately end up with packed defenses.
I like the ideas around the placing an impetus on not going backwards but I wonder whether we have the ability to referee it properly and also will it just cause teams not to cross the 45/65/ half way line until all there players are in position. Kind of like in basketball when you are in possession and leading and slow the pace of the attack to get bodies across half court and to run the clock down . I also wonder will this make the game more complicated for the casual viewer to engage with . I think Rugby Union is plagued with scrum penalties and ruck penalties that most people don't understand .
I think the committee should introduce a second referee and ruthlessly enforce the rules in both codes and blow constantly for holding off the ball and systemic fouling . Once teams are repeatedly punished it might lead to a more open game but it might get worse for a while before it gets better.
Its not the remit of the review committee but one thing I feel the GAA could do with improving is making the game more open and inclusive in terms of how it gets people involved in football . Most people interested in the game have played it at club level in both juvenile and adult teams. Its a very structured environment . I think the GAA needs to appeal to more non traditional GAA households and this could be done through more social formats . I think finding an equivalent of "tag rugby" or " five a side " is important. It needs to be a format that can be played within or outside the GAA umbrella that emphasises fun and participation and it should be capable of being picked up relatively quickly by a male or female with a basic level of fitness . I think these kind of things have driven greater engagement with Rugby and Soccer over the years and I think this is important as Ireland becomes more diverse and more urban . I think a fun unstructured format could do wonders for the game and people who do not have the time or the desire to play club football . Its also rather difficult to take the game up in your 20s or 30s if you have never played it. I think it would be a nice counterbalance to the "toughest" vibes that the club championships often emphasise in their advertisements. All that heartache and heartbreak might seem off putting to someone not familiar with that environment ( I often hear the adverts and think the needlessly serious tone is very off putting) . Ultimately its about broadening the appeal of the sport , engaging new people.
|
|
|
Post by veteran on Mar 7, 2024 22:10:22 GMT
Two principles which should underpin any rule changes:
1. Should be easily implementable by the officials. 2. Should not lend themselves to be readily exploited , in other words should be structured to preclude any unintended negative consequences.
I know Jim Gavin and Eamon Fitzmaurice are members of the committee but I am not familiar with other names . My hope is the committee does not include any current managers as most of them would only be interested in a short term gain for their team rather than having the long term wellbeing of football as their priority.
|
|
|
Post by shannonsider on Mar 7, 2024 23:15:54 GMT
Two principles which should underpin any rule changes: 1. Should be easily implementable by the officials. 2. Should not lend themselves to be readily exploited , in other words should be structured to preclude any unintended negative consequences. I know Jim Gavin and Eamon Fitzmaurice are members of the committee but I am not familiar with other names . My hope is the committee does not include any current managers as most of them would only be interested in a short term gain for their team rather than having the long term wellbeing of football as their priority. On the money with both those points Vet. It’s amazing to me that some people seem to wish to bring in rules or changes that make it harder for the attacking team. Surely most people realise the biggest issue is that a team is allowed to park 15 men inside their own 45 or deeper? This is the main issue that must be addressed otherwise we’re wasting our time with this high powered committee. If you can limit this being done as much as possible there will be - more kicking the ball to forwards which is the game our sainted fathers played and the way more teams should still try to play. - less monotonous passing sideways in the middle of the field. - more space for runners to attack and shoot or set up scores for others. Now as Vet says, this needs to be a rule that a ref can apply at an u14 game on a Tuesday night in Mountcoal not just at county level. So I don’t think we can mimic the basketball 3 in the key rule and ask refs to be trying to count the number of players inside the 45 while the play is going on. It’s just not practical is it? So what to do. I’m not 100% sure what would work best but I’m fairly certain that it would have to involve forcing a team to have a certain number of players high up the pitch on an opposing kickout. And you can’t just say inside the 45 either as a negative team will stand 6 players on the 45 and when the ball is kicked they’ll turn tail and run back to their 45. So it has to be 3 players on the 20m line and 3 between the 20m line and 45. Along with the same number from the team taking the kickout. Along with that to counteract what smart negative coaches will look at if this comes to pass (fouling immediately post kickout) if the team taking the kickout wins the ball and is fouled between the 2 45s the opposition 6 forwards must retreat to their attacking 45 again until the free kick is taken. It won’t be easy to implement and there is bound to be issues but it could work. Two other things come to mind. The rule on steps without playing the ball is being completely ignored wholesale. I’ve never in my life seen somebody pulled after 4 steps. So let’s stop the pretence, amend the rule to 5 steps but actually enforce it. Lastly I know it might be tinkering but I do like the idea of a 45m arc like in AFL with points from on or outside being rewarded with 2 points. Again if a David Clifford, Michael Murphy or Rory Beggan type player kicks 2 or 3 of those over a blanket defence they’ll have to push out more or the scoreboard will punish them. I’ve always said a 45m arc would be fairer anyway as where the 45m line hits the sideline is 50m or more from the goals. Anyway. This topic will continue to be debated. I trust Jim Gavin and Fitzmaurice also to be fair, even though I think his stock is massively overrated by some and he did some very questionable stuff in the latter part of his Kerry reign. But he’s a smart, sensible man by and large. So I’m hopeful they’ll do something productive.
|
|
|
Post by colinsworth1 on Mar 9, 2024 2:04:24 GMT
Your asking for simplicity some thing that would work in a U14 game in Mountcoal then you go into all sorts of intricate contrived forced footballing situations it dosent have to be difficult The 45 meter rule is simple to enforce its the easiest to referee of all the other suggestions no major problem for any referee
The blanket defence is NOT the problem Dublin showed us all last week that even with 28 player inside one 45 that they can navigate this and can score with fast movement and fast passing of the ball Let me REPEAT the attacking team retreating back over the 45 going the wrong way is what’s killing the game as a spectacle and no one does it better than The Dubs Teams are playing Keep ball and killing game’s atmosphere by going backwards after initially making good forward progress Just watch the next league game and observe what causes the dull drudgery in our game .
|
|
|
Post by Annascaultilidie on Mar 9, 2024 4:57:03 GMT
Your asking for simplicity some thing that would work in a U14 game in Mountcoal then you go into all sorts of intricate contrived forced footballing situations it dosent have to be difficult The 45 meter rule is simple to enforce its the easiest to referee of all the other suggestions no major problem for any referee The blanket defence is NOT the problem Dublin showed us all last week that even with 28 player inside one 45 that they can navigate this and can score with fast movement and fast passing of the ball Let me REPEAT the attacking team retreating back over the 45 going the wrong way is what’s killing the game as a spectacle and no one does it better than The Dubs Teams are playing Keep ball and killing game’s atmosphere by going backwards after initially making good forward progress Just watch the next league game and observe what causes the dull drudgery in our game . Teams are being patient out past the 45 because of blanket defenses though. Personally I would make a minimal amount of changes. Let the game evolve naturally inasmuch as possible.
|
|
|
Post by southward on Mar 9, 2024 8:00:50 GMT
To paraphrase George Bush - "its the handpass, stupid!"
Everything comes back to the handpass; it's the root of all evil here. The back and forth isn't viable without unrestricted handpassing. Neither is the blanket defence. Curtail the handpass or forget about saving the game.
|
|
|
Post by veteran on Mar 9, 2024 9:42:22 GMT
To paraphrase George Bush - "its the handpass, stupid!" Everything comes back to the handpass; it's the root of all evil here. The back and forth isn't viable without unrestricted handpassing. Neither is the blanket defence. Curtail the handpass or forget about saving the game. Rarely has a truer word been spoken. I have been preaching it for years. Restrict it to two consecutive hand passes. That wouldn’t be hard to police. It just means recruiting referees who can count up to two. Surely there are a few around.
|
|
peanuts
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,859
|
Post by peanuts on Mar 9, 2024 11:26:33 GMT
Restricting the hand pass might be a part of the solution but it won’t work on its own. It really wouldn’t impact the back and forth along the 45 that we see in a lot of games as a kick pass is easily incorporated into that type of play. I would also argue that 4-5 hand passes is fine once they are in an attacking sense. Gavin Whites goal against Derry last year being a good example. There were 4 hand passes in a row from Kerry ending with Gavin fisting to the net. That to me was a great move which would be outlawed under the proposal suggested above. I also don’t like the idea of reducing the number of players to 13 as that will only benefit faster and more athletic players. I like the suggestion of forcing teams to keep a minimum of 3 backs and 3 forwards in each half or beyond each 45m at all times. I also would also like to restrict the backwards type of play that we see too much of.
|
|
|
Post by royalkerryfan on Mar 9, 2024 12:41:36 GMT
Every rule change has an unintended consequence and I'd be slow to make radical changes.
I would prefer to see the discipline properly addressed.
Get rid of the black card.
A deliberate professional foul is a red card. [ it won't carry into next game but you are down a man ]
You won't take a black card for the team then.
A stop clock to prevent time wasting.
Change the steps rule.
Define thr tackle.
I'm sure there's more!
|
|
|
Post by shannonsider on Mar 9, 2024 13:23:31 GMT
Your asking for simplicity some thing that would work in a U14 game in Mountcoal then you go into all sorts of intricate contrived forced footballing situations it dosent have to be difficult The 45 meter rule is simple to enforce its the easiest to referee of all the other suggestions no major problem for any referee The blanket defence is NOT the problem Dublin showed us all last week that even with 28 player inside one 45 that they can navigate this and can score with fast movement and fast passing of the ball Let me REPEAT the attacking team retreating back over the 45 going the wrong way is what’s killing the game as a spectacle and no one does it better than The Dubs Teams are playing Keep ball and killing game’s atmosphere by going backwards after initially making good forward progress Just watch the next league game and observe what causes the dull drudgery in our game . I disagree completely. Why are teams “playing keep ball” even when behind and NOT kicking ball forward more? Do you think it’s all down to some plan to just keep the ball ad nauseum for no reason? Here’s something you can do - go to a seat or terrace behind the goals at an inter county game and see the picture that unfolds if a team doesn’t get possession to half way on their own kickout within 10 seconds. Look at what they are facing if playing against a Dublin or Derry or really any team. There will be 12-15 opposition players in the third of the field nearest you. It’s not impossible to find a kick pass against that but it is very difficult and THIS is what leads to teams recycling and looking for the right running avenue to open up or to get a long range shooter to loop around someone and get a shot off as David Clifford so often does. Can’t believe somebody would think the blanket defence is not a problem to be honest.
|
|
|
Post by john4 on Mar 10, 2024 12:00:45 GMT
It's going to be a challenge in itself for Jim Gavin's committee to even agree on the type of game they want to create, and this is before they can even begin to agree what changes will bring about the reality of this vision of a game.
Coaches will always find a way to create solid defensive structures.
Back in the 90's there was no such thing as a blanket defense, a lot more kick-passing etc. But I don't remember the scorelines being any higher then than now.
|
|
|
Post by southward on Mar 10, 2024 12:33:41 GMT
It's going to be a challenge in itself for Jim Gavin's committee to even agree on the type of game they want to create, and this is before they can even begin to agree what changes will bring about the reality of this vision of a game. Coaches will always find a way to create solid defensive structures. Back in the 90's there was no such thing as a blanket defense, a lot more kick-passing etc. But I don't remember the scorelines being any higher then than now. You're right about that, John. But I bet you were never at a tight game in a packed ground where people around you were so bored, they were talking about the weather. It's not always about high scores or even about the quality - people need excitement, drama, a bit of passion; that's what makes us want to be there. Not this slow, mechanical, risk-free dross we're being served up nowadays.
|
|
|
Post by colinsworth1 on Mar 10, 2024 13:44:32 GMT
Your asking for simplicity some thing that would work in a U14 game in Mountcoal then you go into all sorts of intricate contrived forced footballing situations it dosent have to be difficult The 45 meter rule is simple to enforce its the easiest to referee of all the other suggestions no major problem for any referee The blanket defence is NOT the problem Dublin showed us all last week that even with 28 player inside one 45 that they can navigate this and can score with fast movement and fast passing of the ball Let me REPEAT the attacking team retreating back over the 45 going the wrong way is what’s killing the game as a spectacle and no one does it better than The Dubs Teams are playing Keep ball and killing game’s atmosphere by going backwards after initially making good forward progress Just watch the next league game and observe what causes the dull drudgery in our game . I disagree completely. Why are teams “playing keep ball” even when behind and NOT kicking ball forward more? Do you think it’s all down to some plan to just keep the ball ad nauseum for no reason? Here’s something you can do - go to a seat or terrace behind the goals at an inter county game and see the picture that unfolds if a team doesn’t get possession to half way on their own kickout within 10 seconds. Look at what they are facing if playing against a Dublin or Derry or really any team. There will be 12-15 opposition players in the third of the field nearest you. It’s not impossible to find a kick pass against that but it is very difficult and THIS is what leads to teams recycling and looking for the right running avenue to open up or to get a long range shooter to loop around someone and get a shot off as David Clifford so often does. Can’t believe somebody would think the blanket defence is not a problem to be honest. Some good points there Really what fans look for is contested ball that’s why we pay to go to games the contest Whether it’s one V one contest like Con O Callaghan v Jason Foley Or 15 V 15 in one half of field it’s still contested ball and a turnover or a score is possible at any moment That’s edge of the seat stuff The game goes very flat when for example Kieran Kilkenny encounters mild traffic inside and has Fenton or McCarthy always In the “ quarter back “ position” outside the 45 as a relief valve They they give about 5 or 6 handy put us to sleep 5 yard hand passes before they then try attack down the other side
|
|
|
Post by colinsworth1 on Mar 10, 2024 13:54:43 GMT
By not allowing team s go backwards over the 45 I think it would Be an easy to referee way of making the game a lot more interesting and would result in more contests and more shooting at least trial this .
|
|
|
Post by Annascaultilidie on Mar 11, 2024 9:45:40 GMT
By not allowing team s go backwards over the 45 I think it would Be an easy to referee way of making the game a lot more interesting and would result in more contests and more shooting at least trial this . It would make teams more patient in attack. Any rules changes have to be very smart. As I wrote above, I would prefer to let the games tactics evolve. Let coaches see that the teams that win are those that play attacking. Over defensive teams do not win All Irelands. And there might be a rob Peter to pay Paul. For example, like others, I don't like the offensive mark. But since it has been brought in the amount of kicking has increased. On the other hand, while teams cannot now bring 12 players back to defend the D, which is good, they instead have to bring back 13-15 to defend out to maybe 35 yards of the posts. I would like the rules to be simplified rather than complicated in any case.
|
|
|
Post by Corner Back on Mar 11, 2024 16:38:37 GMT
A question for any referee out there: Usually if a player is fouled while kicking the ball the free is from where the ball lands. If, for example, an attacking player is on the edge of the D and kicks the ball backwards, to outside the 45, is the free from where the ball lands? The less adventagous position?
|
|
|
Post by Annascaultilidie on Mar 11, 2024 17:34:11 GMT
A question for any referee out there: Usually if a player is fouled while kicking the ball the free is from where the ball lands. If, for example, an attacking player is on the edge of the D and kicks the ball backwards, to outside the 45, is the free from where the ball lands? The less adventagous position? Could be a clever tactic to foul a player about to kick backwards 😂😂😂
|
|
|
Post by homerj on Mar 11, 2024 20:02:35 GMT
no you award the free from where the foul took place.
|
|
|
Post by thehermit on Mar 12, 2024 14:19:50 GMT
|
|
|
Post by royalkerryfan on Mar 12, 2024 17:01:39 GMT
Was a disaster before last years final. Barman never showed up and there were 2 lads behind the bar. The start of what turned out to be a terrible day.
|
|
|
Post by kerry97 on Mar 13, 2024 10:12:12 GMT
Seeing as we are making suggestions to change the rules how about making any free for the attacking team inside the 65 a free from the 21 yard line straight in front of the posts .The fouled player would have to kick the score/take the free . 30 seconds to kick the free from the time of the foul.
Basically any foul is a guaranteed score ( I'm presumptively assuming that most footballers are comfortable taking a shot from 21 yards out straight in front of the posts) . It would remove systemic fouling inside the 65 as teams will simply cough up scores .
It might lead to teams pressing higher up the field and systemically fouling in midfield but this would in theory require more players out around the middle allowing more space inside for ball to be kicked in quickly.
The biggest negative is that it would remove the art of free taking . It would also require ruthless enforcement of the rules from the officials.
|
|
|
Post by colinsworth1 on Mar 13, 2024 11:42:14 GMT
I heard Jameso on the football pod Looking to ban the fisted point over the bar and the goal from a tap in with the hand
Hold on now the speculation is fun and some good ideas But two or three tweaks is all I’m seeing for now
Still like to trial the no kick back over the 45 by attacking team Watch Dubs in particular at the weekend But all teams doing it also taking the life of almost all attacking plays by going back over the 45 after meeting minimal resistance That one backward kick or handpass is the game killer right there as a spectacle Fans don’t pay to see a player passing the ball back And also defenders don’t really bother tackling out side the 45 and are happy to just shadow at best That’s the real boring part The 45 m rule would liven up the contest imo and eradicate those boring passages of play where everyone is shadowing everyone else and nobody laying a glove on anyone and no shots or creative plays
|
|
|
Post by Attacking Wing Back on Mar 13, 2024 13:54:16 GMT
I heard Jameso on the football pod Looking to ban the fisted point over the bar and the goal from a tap in with the hand Hold on now the speculation is fun and some good ideas But two or three tweaks is all I’m seeing for now Still like to trial the no kick back over the 45 by attacking team Watch Dubs in particular at the weekend But all teams doing it also taking the life of almost all attacking plays by going back over the 45 after meeting minimal resistance That one backward kick or handpass is the game killer right there as a spectacle Fans don’t pay to see a player passing the ball back And also defenders don’t really bother tackling out side the 45 and are happy to just shadow at best That’s the real boring part The 45 m rule would liven up the contest imo and eradicate those boring passages of play where everyone is shadowing everyone else and nobody laying a glove on anyone and no shots or creative plays I don't know if no passing back over the 45 would make any difference. I think it could lead to more 'arsing' around with the ball. Attacking teams wont want to give the ball in unless it's practically a guaranteed shot for the receiver. Attacking teams wont want to shoot from outside the 45 as the % success rate drops once you go out 35m. And the defending team know this so will just put everyone into their half inside the 45m line. So attacking teams will try to free up their best long range kickers on the loop but, it will be out around the 45.
|
|