Is it time to pay players?

[topscorer]

Should inter-county players be paid and if so what system could be used?

[homerj]

pay them no, reward them better, definately yes.

for example - maybe something like each county gets 10% of the gate for the players,the longer the year,the bigger the gate receipts get etc....this is then divided up between the players.

[diehard]

It would be imposssible to players and not introduce a transfer/ trade system. You would end up with the soul ripped out of the game. You couldnt expect players that are good but can't make their county teams to sit on the bench when they could be earning big bucks at another county. Ameturism is the pillar on which the gaa is based.

[kerryeye]

NO

[JOAN]

Rewards only.. we talked this topic to death over the winter

[kerrygold]

get it right now and protect the amature ethos of the game for generations to come.

get it wrong now and lose the amature ethos of the game for good within 10 years.

grants,tax breaks,proper insurance schemes,vastly enhanced expenses packages,endorcements etc wont threaten the amature ethos of the gaa but will see that players are compensated for their time and effort put into the game in this new modern ireland.

the gaa and croker will take in 220 million plus in the next three years,food for thought!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Walter Mitty]

kerrygold said:

the gaa and croker will take in 220 million plus in the next three years,food for thought!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep re-investing the game at the grass roots and stadiums. Coaches, gear for kids, improved facilities and pitches, more coaches etc.

Improved expenses for referees and players should also be examined in conjunction with a government suppplement for players.

As far as I am aware (and if there are any tax geniouses please feel free to correct me) professional sportsmen such as Harry, Doherty and our soccer players etc who are domiciled in Ireland are seriously rewarded from a tax perspective (under legislation geared towards artists including sportspeople) where they are many allowances/credits and reliefs which allow them to seriously reduce their tax liabilities.

I would be in favour of similar advantages for the sports stars of our "national games" whereby a named panel (ie each player on a panel named at the start of the championship) would be entitled to a certain tax free grants/tax credits/and or allowances dependent on how far their team gets in the championship.

This is only a general outline of what I would like to see. I would not see this as going against the amature ethos of the game but a movement towards the proper rewarding of the players to match the increased time being spent on preparation by our players and a system in line with the change in the economic environment of our country.

[kerrygold]

good post walter.

take the average teacher,gaurd,army man,bank official etc on a county team around the county,give him a modest grant and tax exemption and you straight away give that player 10 to 12 grand per year.That kind of money makes a huge difference to an amatuer player putting in a huge effort to play the game at the highest level in modern ireland.

[wayupnorth]

Not worth risking the amateur ethos - but agreed that we need to look at better rewards or should we say compensation.

[austinstacksabu]

The tax issue is a thorny one, as it rewards those who are full time sports people (although the Armagh lads weren't able to avail of it :-) ) and as the GAA players do not derive their primary income from GAA activities, they are not entitled to this tax exemption.

For example, when this debate first arose, Anthony Rainbow, a very successful member of staff with Tegral, would have been claiming tax on an income not derived from the GAA, which places him at an advantage to other members of the Tegral staff. This is something the government don't want to contemplate because if you include GAA players you have to include cricket players, cyclists, runners etc who are not fully professional athletes.

The key to this is setting a standard across each sport, at which you must be competing to earn the tax credit as a non professional. Not so much a means test as a level of entry into that tax bracket.

[Owenabue]

There is the issue as you say, with the lads from the six counties and also, if you wanted to include London and New York. Also, the ladies, you can't forget them! Now I know they aren't actually part of the G.A.A. but you could argue they are putting in the same effort. I did read after the All Ireland the ladies aren't getting anything like the lads are, even at present. (travelling expenses etc) No matter what way you twist and turn it, extra tax free allowance would be very difficult to work. If you still have lads going to college they would in a lot of cases have to put in more effort getting home yet they couldn't benefit from a grant like that.

[kerrygold]

in respose to abue and abu no other amatuer sport in this country will generate 220 million plus in the next three years for its organisation.No other amateur sport in ireland will generate millions for the members of the dublin chamber of commerce and other chambers of commerce around the country in places like cork,limerick,killarney,thurles etc over the next three years and no other amateur organisation will generate millions for the exchequer over the next three years from assosciated activities such as drink,food,accommodation,travel,fuel,sports wear,doctors,physios etc,etc,etc, through vat,prsi,wages,jobs etc,etc,

most other elite sports athletes in this country are funded through grants at olympic level and international level and are therefore looked after and compensated finacially.

as regards students, grants and schorlarships can be introduced to compensate.In modern ireland with cross border inititives and co-operation through the good friday agreement players from the six counties arent even an arguement as to how they would be tied in,after all the gaa is a 32 county organistion.

[Owenabue]

Okay KG, but say a Kerry hurler or footballer, would they be entitled to the same amount? Or say the Cork ladies who are duel players, should they get more?

[austinstacksabu]

The elite athletes can be looked after because of their status - full time professionals.

However, when all of your income isn't generated by sport, and as Owen put it, when you live in the six counties, what are you to do.

You then open an entirely different equation - there are thousands of people who will claim (fairly in many cases), that they are amateurs and that they deserve the same status as GAA players. Just because somebody playes in Croke Park in September doesn't mean he is the only athlete training 11 months of the year - amateur jockeys, boxers, sailors, rowers, cyclists who all represent Ireland at events.

You keep banging on about the GAA and Croke Park making $220 million over three years. A few thoughts to keep in mind:

1) The GAA and Croke Park are seperate corporate bodies and therefore their revenues are kept apart.

2) Croke Park Teoranta is still in debt - they are still repaying the development costs of Croke Park and are about to undertake a refresh of the Cusack stand which won't come cheap.

3) The GAA has to pay each of the county boards grants for their participation in the leagues and championships - to defray some of the preparation costs involved.

4) That revenue generated by the GAA includes all the county board gate receipts, provincial council gate receipts etc. You have to deduct the running costs of each county board from that. You have to deduce the running costs of the provincial councils, including their full time coaching and educational programmes.

4) Do the simple math - say the GAA give each player in both codes a grant of $5k a year. 32 football counties and say 12 hurling counties (again, what about the likes of Mr. Brick who train just as hard as anybody who would be outside that twelve county bracket) and that's 44 squads of 30 players times $5000 and you get a price tag of just under $7m. Over three years, $21m.


The math barely stack up for the GAA to pay the players, and open all kinds of problems - what about the guys on the edge of the squad, numbers 31 - 35?

The GAA and Croke Park are generating revenues alright, but when you do the PNL you would begin to see an entirely different set of figures come to light.

[watchdehop]

Another potential problem down the line is if people are considered being compensated for playing the game (through tax breaks grants etc) they can be considered workers.

Then the whole EU workers rights kick in. A la Bosman. This could mean that a player would have the "right" to work/play where they want. Then you have a transfer system.

For example a cracking footballer from Sligo would be "opressed" if he wasn't allowed to play for Dublin.

This is a big mine field and once a cans of worms are opened its hard to get the lid back on.

[lessbull]

If a player isn't prepared to play for the pride of his county alone then he doesn't deserve to represent his county!!!! Having said that, I think players at senior inter-county level should be compensated for any expenses relating to their commitments to the team. This would include loss of earnings, travel expenses (which they already receive anyway), gym memberships, etc. I am opposed to any kind of wage system creeping in or to players from more successful counties being treated better. And if a transfer system ever came in I'm afraid I would have to turn my back on the game!

[AnygivenSunday]

agree wiyh your comment lessbull. i think if players got paid the pride would stay in the past and players would become lax, but like you said they should get something for the work they put in.

[Owenabue]

Lessbull, the ladies still aren't getting travel expenses in a lot if not all cases.

[buck02]

Have a look at this, written by a Fermanagh footballer, Colm Brady I think is his name:


SINCE Tom Brewster declared that the majority of Fermanagh players support strike action over the GPA grants issue, a number of people have felt the need to chastise me.

The other week a supporter stopped me in the centre of Enniskillen to say "Arrah, sure all youse boys are interested in is pay for play." I've had others phoning me in the Fermanagh Herald office saying the same. Just the other day one advised me to write about "moneygrabbing county players" instead of having another "go" at the county board. Well, I'm now going to take the advice of the latter to try to convince the former I'm not interested in pay for play. Because I'm not. I'm not even interested in the grant. I don't want it. I don't think it's right. I think it's wrong.

Obviously Tom . . . not just a clubmate but a friend . . . disagrees. So do the executive of the GPA. For five years they've been pushing the argument that their commitment and skill and contribution to the social fabric of Irish life entitles them to the same aid other sports people receive. And what people tend to overlook in all of this is both the government and the GAA hierarchy obviously agree. Back in April the GAA and GPA issued a joint document on how the grant scheme would operate, outlining six sections in which players could submit for expense reimbursements.

Those sections included 'motor expenses' and 'communications'. Sorry, but I find them completely baffling.

If this grant scheme is passed, an intercounty player is entitled to claim for the tax and insurance of his car. Tax and insurance are one-off payments. They don't increase because of the extra miles incurred in playing for your county. I presume county players would drive regardless of whether they played for the county or not, so I fail to see how this is a legitimate expense to allow players to improve their standards.

There's more. Under 'communications', we can claim for phone rental and calls, mobile rentals and calls and internet access.

Are the GAA and the GPA telling us that county players wouldn't have a house phone, a mobile or internet access if they weren't county players? !

Another detail which must be challenged is the four-tier system that the GPA and the GAA have agreed should be employed to establish who gets what. All Ireland finalists will get 2,800, All Ireland semi-finalists and quarter-finalists 2,200, third-round qualifiers 1,900 and then 1,650 for those who get knocked out at round two of the qualifiers or earlier. By the GPA's admission, should the funds become available they will begin from the first week of February to correspond with the beginning of the national football league. The All Ireland hurling final is held on the first Sunday of September, 30 weeks after the first week in February. Divide 2,800 by 30 and a Limerick hurler last year was entitled to 93.33 per week. Now take the Mayo footballer who was knocked out in round two of the qualifiers on July 14, 23 weeks after the start of a league which his team lit up, and only seven weeks before the All Irelands. He only makes 71.73 a week. This system offers more per week to those who progress further. It is inherently performance-related. I find it incredible that the GAA and GPA have produced figures that clearly favour the elite counties who compete for longer in the championship, as if they don't have enough perks over the rest of us as it is. I'm amazed so few players from the lower-profile counties haven't made an issue of this. If these out-ofpocket expenses are designed to help players reach their potential, then it could be argued that this uneven distribution will only widen the gap between the strong and the weak.

There's something even bigger at stake. If the figures stay as they are, then the GAA is creating a Bosman situation for itself. This year might have been a blip for Mayo but it's typical enough for a Matty Forde and a Deccie Browne, even a Benny Coulter. Do Cork have a forward better than them? Should Cork have 10 forwards who will receive more money than the three of them? In a few years' time you might get a Deccie or a Matty from a county like Deccie's and Matty's who could take a legal case against the GAA, claiming the county system is restricting his income. The GAA won't have a leg to stand on. It would be the collapse of the county structure . . . and the GAA itself . . . as we know it.

Being a county player against grant aid is a difficult position to be in. Because I've been such an enthusiastic member and supporter of the GPA and outspoken about GAA officialdom in the past, I've been long painted in some parts as a mercenary with no respect for the GAA. Then, because I'm against the GPA on this one issue, I have GPA members wondering am I now working for the Fermanagh county board! The reality is I'm against the GPA on this one . . . but massive . . . issue and have debated it at length with Dessie Farrell, whose opinion I respect and who respects mine.

The year the GPA was formed was the same year I started playing county football . . .

1999. And God, was there a need for it. When I joined our senior panel, I was amazed at the shoddy treatment the players received. I remember thinking I was better treated by St Michael's College just months earlier when I was a member of their McRory Cup campaign. But meals after training, a better mileage rate, gear delivered on time; these things and more the GPA delivered. Now in Fermanagh we are treated very well. Without the GPA that would never have happened and throughout the country thousands of players can vouch the same.

The GPA are right to say that the county player contributes hugely to Irish society and that we're entitled to the same grant aid as other athletes receive. But just because we are entitled to it doesn't mean we should take it. And the reason we shouldn't is this . . . it is our very amateurism that makes us different and makes our association different and why our games are so loved and contribute so much to Irish society. In a nutshell, it is the fact we choose to give so much, but are prepared to receive so little, that makes the GAA so special.

We're proud of where we come from, proud of our parish, our club, our county. Success may make this pride taste a little sweeter but what's important is that we give of our free time, we make sacrifices and we do all we can because of our love of our fantastic and flawed association and games. We choose the GAA.

Because that's what it comes down to . . . playing county football and hurling is a choice, plain and simple, just like managing the under-12 club team or sweeping out the dressing rooms is a choice. I've played county football for nine years and each year the choice to play gets more difficult but I don't want the decision to commit to play for my county clouded by the fact that I could receive 2000 for my efforts. Why should I be able to tax my car for free or have my phone bill paid because I play county football? Why am I deemed more important than the guy who sweeps out the dressing room? Already we're the lucky ones. We get to play in front of the crowds, get the free gear, the mileage. How many under15 coaches get mileage?

The nuclear option of strike action is supported by some high-profile players but I doubt whether the sentiment of the majority of players is as militant. It will be interesting to see just how many of the 2,000-strong membership has bothered to vote. Even if half the inter-county playing population votes, what would that say about the other half?

That they're apathetic? Happy with the way things are? From talking to fellow players from various counties, a shortened intercounty scene that would enable them to play for their clubs is higher on the priority than grant aid. To me it's quite clear that the average GAA member is against the rationale behind the proposed strike. But if you're that member, what exactly are you annoyed about?

Is it the fact that the GPA are threatening a strike or is it the notion that the players will receive grant aid? I have a hunch you're annoyed about both. If so then I say you should have at least an equal dose of anger reserved for officials in Croke Park. It is they who conceded the principle of grant aid without ever canvassing the opinion of you, the rank and file member, and more, it is they who have created the culture for players to wonder, "Hey, where's our slice of the cake?" TV rights, including pay-per-view options, with figures of tens of millions, are currently been discussed. Managers receive payments yet the GAA haven't been able to tackle it. Ticket prices are also exorbitant and yet there's no debate about it.

From what I see, the association is lost in a world of profit and turnover. The GPA offer an easy target for GAA people to vent their frustrations but it's time that we really consider what direction the association is taking.

The ideals that made the GAA great are on life support. The greatest threat is not the GPA but a more silent attacker from within.

[osama]

Colm Bradley is the name you were looking for buck. He was on pat kenny this morning with martin brehony and dessie farrell and he made some very good points. I personally dont agree with the GPA or dessie farrell and any of their ideas and I definitely do not agree with players getting money directly.
A player that reaches an AI final gets 2800 euro while a layer knocked out in the first round gets 1550. A bit ridiculous that theyll get it per week when so teams are gone out of the championship before kerry or cork will have kicked a ball. If seventy euro a week will motivate you to win an All Ireland you'd seriously want to give it up. Its either amateur or its not. There are no grey areas, players should get expenses and make what they want from ads and functions and whatever but definitely not get paid for playing.

[austinstacksabu]

Interesting article by Colm and I happen to agree whole heartedly with him on the above issues.

Over the winter there will be some hard soul searching among the GAA base as the reality of a changing future dawns.

However, the leadership of the GAA are not guiding this debate, not giving their thoughts, not encouracing the people of the GAA to think what they want from the future of the game, and this is most disappointing.

This is more important than the opening of Croke Park, than rule 21, than the future of hurling in the weaker counties. This is the future of the amateur ethos - the one facet of the GAA that has remained unchanged, that has continued to guide all sections of the GAA, that continues to make it the organisation it is. Yet, all we get from the powers that be is silence. They've agreed on a grant package and now that they can't agree on how to implement it with the government or the GPA they do what the GAA always does best - put their head in the sand.

Liam Mulvihill is out the door in a month or so and won't want to get involved. They haven't identified his successor and he / she won't want to get involved so quickly either.

Nickey Brennan - this is where you lead. This is where you stand up and declare what you believe should happen, where you protect the great legacy that has been handed down to you through generations of great, and not so great leaders of this most unique, parochial and nationalistic of organisations.

[kerrygold]

i agree stacks the silence is the most annoying past,nicky mighten want to lead coming near the end of his stint in charge,i had hoped that dj carey and nicky would have been able to negociate a few bridges on this matter.

its an interesting article by colm and its hard not to agree with many of his points,especially profit and turn over.

is there a bigger picture,theres two ways we can look at it,drive on relentlessly with advanced training methods,commitments and continue to need to create vast suns of money or row back a bit,regulate training,introduce accountability and codes of conduct as regards to training methods,numbers of sessions etc,tidy up the provencial systems and condense the championships.

the galway minors had 100 sessions this year,that cant be right,study might have suffered,kerry spend vast sums of money training the team to lie idles for 18 weeks,that cant be right.

its very possible we need to row back a bit to secure the amatuer ethos of the gaa rather than pushing on relentlessly.

its hard not to feel something changed when croker became a cash cow through its rental to other sports,even as a short term messure,did that change the goal posts in players eyes.

if we continue to push on relentlessly something will have to give,i cant see the players being able to continue into the future as things stand at the moment,the commitment is becoming too great at senior intercounty level.

[Mickmack]

I was against opening Croke Park because it would hasten professionalism in the GAA.

Irish Rugby willsuffer.... when the present crop grow old... O Connell, O Driscoll and O Gara..... (the 3 Os)......... their replacements will not be found easily.

Paying Robbie Keane to "not play" for Ireland in Croker galls me

[osama]

austinstacksabu said:

This is more important than the opening of Croke Park, than rule 21, than the future of hurling in the weaker counties.

That is the worrying thing about it, if the money starts coming from the Sports Council whats to stop others eg Co. Boards using "funding" to pay players. Its not taht I'd begrudge them getting the money its the actual principle of it.

We as an island with about 1.5 to 2 million population in terms of GAA following cannot simply support a professional game. Every professional sport in the world, has a global aspect. Aussie Rules is an exception but there are 25 million people in Australia who generate a lot more revenue, also there are less Aussie Rules clubs than there are GAA clubs in Ireland (2,800 to 2,600)

Martin Breheny also made the point that if the players strike then the GAA will just call of the National League until 2009, that will really have an adverse effect on the weaker counties.

stacksabu, If you are looking for someone to lead on this debate look no further than Frank Murphy, he will surely (hopefully)( get involved in this debate at some stage.

[AnygivenSunday]

They should get marketed more and get sponsorships from gaa, but full blown wages would dewstroy the game... you might as well bring in transfers so

[austinstacksabu]

There isn't much more they can do in the way of sponsorship Kick other than the Champions League format which is being rolled out.

The only other cash cow the GAA will begin to milk is the TV rights one which will generate substantial revenue.

[kerrygold]

it looks like bank of ireland are pulling the plug on their involvement with the gaa and their new drive to raise 30 million over three years from sponsorship from a number of seperate companies.

if the tv rights come off it will proberly push the gaa's income to over 80 million a year,its hard not to see where the ambitious and the more financially astute players are coming from.

with the gaa set to become a billion euro business every decade over the next decade it will be difficult to keep a reign of the amateur athos of the gaa.

i wonder in time will the decision to open croker to other sports be seen as an opening of the flood gates in relation to financial turn over,sports people other than gaa stars being paid to perform on the croker sod, increasing sponsorship deals etc.

it will be interesting to view the long term legacy of people involved in opening up croker to the wider world!

[Mickmack]

kerrygold said:

i wonder in time will the decision to open croker to other sports be seen as an opening of the flood gates in relation to financial turn over,sports people other than gaa stars being paid to perform on the croker sod, increasing sponsorship deals etc.

it will be interesting to view the long term legacy of people involved in opening up croker to the wider world!

that was blinding obvious to me before it was opened.

[kerrygold]

the witch hunt by the media in the drive to open croker at the time left a bad taste in my mouth as did the blackmailing and spinning by the dublin chamber of commerce,as did the damning of those apposed.

the picture that was painted by many would have left the gaa in dark place in the publics perception had croker remained closed.

that wasnt right either,it could well come back to bite them all the balls yet if the flood gates open on pay per play.

i wonder will we see anymore honoury doctorates flashed around in the future.

[JOAN]

salary no retirement fund and or grants yeas, the way players get paid to play will be the end of football as we know it as the transfer market wont be too far behind it....