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Post by kerrygold on May 12, 2015 15:28:36 GMT
Why limit it to a quarter final every second year skybluezone, why not put the Dubs on the road for two championship games in Leinster every year? No one is saying the Dubs will crumble outside of Croker, it gives an incentive to the other counties in Leinster to have a cut at it in their own back yard. Hiding behind "no-one cared" where the Dubs played pre 2010 just because they are successful now is lazy analysis and discussion. JG finished one of his recent comments on the matter by saying it made more sense that the Dubs play their games in Croker because more people can go to see it. That is bull and feeds the speculation that the Dubs enjoy carving up the weak in Croker as a matter of routine. Kerrygold, on point one above, I have no issue with not limiting it to a Leinster QF every 2 years out of Croke Park for Dublin, but as I said to MickMack, if the Leinster Council revert to the previous format, then Dublin out of Croke Park for a Leinster QF every second year will be the net effect. If you want to give Dublin a QF away from home every year that is another discussion. 2) The point I make about no one caring between 2006 - 2010 is valid because that is the reality. Everyone wanted to experience the buzz of Croke Park in front of a full house playing Dublin, and the Kerry's, Tyrone's and Corks never piped up about any unfairness, because they knew they had their measure. Sure there is a tidal wave of ex Kerry players in the media telling me that Croke Park is Kerry's spiritual home. I'll go further, in 2009, Kerry were all over the shop, and the big hope was that once they could make it back to Croke Park for the August weekend things would be fine and dandy. How prophetic was that. Skybluezone/rashers, my comments are solely direct towards the state of Leinster championship and nothing else. Kerry have no problem and never had a problem with playing Dublin in Croke Park, Croker is and has been a home from home for several generations of Kerry players. To cut to the chase, how would you feel about Dublin going on tour around the province for a 3-5 year period in an effort, in a small way, to level the playing field in Leinster. I.e. Go to the Navans, Portlaoises, Newbridges, Tullamores for Leinster quarter-finals and Leinster semi-finals every year. It would almost be a reversal of the situation at the moment where all Dublin games are played in Croker. Obviously the Leinster final would have to be played at HQ.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 12, 2015 16:46:49 GMT
Eh, lol .... Jeez Rashers, you're in very confrontational mood this weather Not at all my dear Dermo, forgive me if I'm simply sceptical that you would have, in 2004, been happy for Tyrone to have had no qualifier option. Or in 2005 (did they not win their greatest All-I that year via the qualifiers?), or in 2006. Without that option, and with Tyrone's struggles earlier in the championship, there would have been no great 2005 run. Or even if they had have managed to win that All-I, their chances of a 3rd Sam in 2008, very much won with the need of the long-grass route, would have been much less likely. Think about it, the All-I win that marked that Tyrone team out as one of the greatest ever sides in the history of the game, and it might not have happened because they had half the chances of other sides. Think about poor aul Kerry in 2009, they wouldn't have been given the opportunity to lurk their way stealthily through the Gleneagles-like rough to deliver their masterclass against all the odds in the All-I qtr final that year, overcoming every disadvantage known to the GAA world in doing so, and further going on to capture their 5th All-I in that decade. It may or may not have been the one that marked them out as 'team of the decade' but it certainly made your discussion more debatable.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 12, 2015 18:28:56 GMT
Kerrygold, on point one above, I have no issue with not limiting it to a Leinster QF every 2 years out of Croke Park for Dublin, but as I said to MickMack, if the Leinster Council revert to the previous format, then Dublin out of Croke Park for a Leinster QF every second year will be the net effect. If you want to give Dublin a QF away from home every year that is another discussion. 2) The point I make about no one caring between 2006 - 2010 is valid because that is the reality. Everyone wanted to experience the buzz of Croke Park in front of a full house playing Dublin, and the Kerry's, Tyrone's and Corks never piped up about any unfairness, because they knew they had their measure. Sure there is a tidal wave of ex Kerry players in the media telling me that Croke Park is Kerry's spiritual home. I'll go further, in 2009, Kerry were all over the shop, and the big hope was that once they could make it back to Croke Park for the August weekend things would be fine and dandy. How prophetic was that. Skybluezone/rashers, my comments are solely direct towards the state of Leinster championship and nothing else. Kerry have no problem and never had a problem with playing Dublin in Croke Park, Croker is and has been a home from home for several generations of Kerry players. To cut to the chase, how would you feel about Dublin going on tour around the province for a 3-5 year period in an effort, in a small way, to level the playing field in Leinster. I.e. Go to the Navans, Portlaoises, Newbridges, Tullamores for Leinster quarter-finals and Leinster semi-finals every year. It would almost be a reversal of the situation at the moment where all Dublin games are played in Croker. Obviously the Leinster final would have to be played at HQ. Would the basis for playing every Leinster quarter and semi-final out of Croke Park be the same, or equitable, as/to the basis currently for Dublin's games being kept in there? In other words, how would the grounds for moving the games out be weighed against the alternative grounds? That's the kind of detail needed to discuss the matter properly. What would make the difference to those counties (all 10 of them) currently voting to keep their games in Croker? Would you agree that playing an extra one or two games every year or other year outside Croker would in fact not nearly be 'almost the reverse of the current situation'? How would you feel about Kerry opting to keep their All-I quarter finals & semi-finals out of Croker in order to set an example and take a lead in this campaign, in a way that would inspire other counties to change the opinion they currently have about playing in/outside Croker? Why would moving some games out of Croker ('almost a reversal'), only be 'a small effort to level the playing field'? What is or wouldn't currently be a level playing field, given that the counties you feel don't have a level playing field, (presumably to some great extent?) are the very counties voting to play in Croker?
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fitz
Fanatical Member
Red sky at night get off my land
Posts: 1,719
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Post by fitz on May 12, 2015 20:25:01 GMT
Right lads, I submit/quit/forfeit whatever. My eyes are strangled from this one. Any chance we get spared more pages?
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Post by donegalman on May 12, 2015 21:15:39 GMT
I am quite enjoying the unexpected tail end of this thread.. There is some controversy about this topic that I didnt realize was a big issue. There is other stuff coming out in the wash too about teams of the decade, back door boys etc etc. And not a ball has been kicked yet in the championship this year. Intriguing.
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Post by Mickmack on May 13, 2015 7:36:53 GMT
First of all I wish to state that I believe the following to be true and I am entitled to this belief and I am entitled to express these views;
I believe that the 6 subs rule favours the teams with a bigger pick (think Crokes v Glenbeigh or Dublin v Longford) and I think it should be cut back to 3 subsn not counting a blood sub.
I believe that the last 3 winners of the All Ireland should not get a back door route. Did we really need another KK All Ireland the year they lost to Galway in the Leinster Final. I believe that this would add spice to provincial championships. Its knockout for everyone anyway from the QFs on. This would just effect provincial games. Imagine the Dubs going to Newbridge for a provincial game with the danger of being knocked out of the All Ireland. Or Kerry going to Thurles next month in the same vein. Its that sense of do or die that's lacking.
I believe that some teams trying to make the breakthrough are more equal than others (Dublin in 1995 and 2011 are examples).
I believe that all teams should have away games in the provincial campaign (same rules for everyone)
I believe that Kerry have an advantage in being the only county in Munster where football is the dominant game (the defection of Aiden Walsh is an obvious example). That said, it is more competitive than Leinster and Connacht now that Tipp are building a decent structure.
I would love to see Dublin make the breakthrough in hurling
I also believe too many provincial games in football are covered live on TV and this prolongs the season to the detriment of the clubs
If any of this winds people up... so be it.
Another thing is that I don't like long posts and I don't often read them unless they are match reports. The best ones for me where a point is made cogently and in the least possible words. That's just a personal thing though.
The only regret I have in this thread is the one where I told rashers he was like Pillar in 2006 but I had had enough at that stage. I apologise to him for that.
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Post by Mickmack on May 13, 2015 7:41:39 GMT
I can appreciate why you dont see the relevance but why would you. Dublin in 1995 and 2011 were in the same place. Trying to make the breakthrough after many years of trying. It took highly controversial last minute decisions to enable them to make the breakthrough. That's twice in the space of twenty years. I will withdraw this point and apologise if you can point to a similar thing happening to any other county trying to make the breakthrough in the last twenty years. Go back longer if you want. It is dreadfully hard for a county to make the breakthrough in the current set up. By the way, in 2013 Dublin were simply better than everyone. They were fantastic champions playing the game it was meant to be played but having the monkey off their back in 2011 allowed them that freedom of expression. I have been campaigning here for a long time amend the back door to skew things in favour of the team trying to make the breakthrough. This would benefit the Dublin hurlers too you know! I would love to see them make the breakthrough. The provincial games would be given a much needed bit of spice if Tipp had the chance to eliminate Kerry from the championship in Thurles in June. It would do Kerry no harm to come through that. Kerry are in an advantageous position too. They are the only county in Munster where football is the dominant game. Its time to tweak things a bit in my view. The back door as it currently stands plus the doubling of the number of subs to 6 skewes things towards the stronger counties To address your points, 1) I don't agree that Dublin needed a decision to go to in their favour to make the "breakthrough", certainly in 1995. They had been beaten in '94 final, '93 semi final, both by a point I think, and beaten by Donegal in '92. So they were always on the premises. Could argue that from 1996 -2001 they needed help, but since then they'be been in the top 3 or 4 counties every year I would argue. 2) You are now moving the goalposts away from the Dublin outside Croke Park for AI QF every second year, to a more general tweaking of the whole system. Which is an entirely different argument. And I have no real issue with any of your views on that score. My issue is the amount of noise being generated by the media about Dublin always being in Croke Park. A lot of anti Dub bandwagon hoppers have jumped on this one, I have consistently pointed out that if Leinster Council revert to previous format then Dublin are outside CP for a QF every second year. Leinster semi's and onwards, all teams play in CP, even Dublin! Thats the height of it. Skybluezone.... you say that you don't have any real issue with my views on a general tweaking of the system........... what aspects are you in favour of and why?
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Post by Mickmack on May 13, 2015 8:02:18 GMT
Right lads, I submit/quit/forfeit whatever. My eyes are strangled from this one. Any chance we get spared more pages? I have a very simple way of dealing with that problem. I don't bother opening the thread.
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Post by Dermot on May 13, 2015 11:19:28 GMT
Eh, lol .... Jeez Rashers, you're in very confrontational mood this weather Not at all my dear Dermo, forgive me if I'm simply sceptical that you would have, in 2004, been happy for Tyrone to have had no qualifier option. Or in 2005 (did they not win their greatest All-I that year via the qualifiers?), or in 2006. Without that option, and with Tyrone's struggles earlier in the championship, there would have been no great 2005 run. Or even if they had have managed to win that All-I, their chances of a 3rd Sam in 2008, very much won with the need of the long-grass route, would have been much less likely. Think about it, the All-I win that marked that Tyrone team out as one of the greatest ever sides in the history of the game, and it might not have happened because they had half the chances of other sides. Think about poor aul Kerry in 2009, they wouldn't have been given the opportunity to lurk their way stealthily through the Gleneagles-like rough to deliver their masterclass against all the odds in the All-I qtr final that year, overcoming every disadvantage known to the GAA world in doing so, and further going on to capture their 5th All-I in that decade. It may or may not have been the one that marked them out as 'team of the decade' but it certainly made your discussion more debatable. I know exatly what you're saying Rashers and I totally agree and I did allude to that earlier in this thread .... Dangerous to introduce different sets of rules for different teams. Uproar will surely ensue at first tight contentious game resulting in a team out on first defeat. The Championship is of so much more importance to people than league. So potential early exit e. Tyrone v Donegal in first round and your year is over is heartbreak stuff, wait til next year. Kerry v Cork, Mayo v Galway/Roscommon would be similar fixture for calamity. The back door is all good for all counties Imo. I know what you're saying Fitzwop but as well as the benefits of at least 2 games for every team, the current system sorta ensures that one of the usual suspects will win the AI every year (even if they slip up at some stage).. Not sure I should be saying this as we won 2 of our 3 through the back door lol Doesnt mean its not a good idea though .... I dont think it should be seen as putting a halter on the recent winning teams but more giving the lesser teams a leg up ... Lets face it, the top teams would "still" be most likely to win the AI.. It has to be good for the game in general & hopefully bring other teams on .... (And the precedent is there in other sports .. take Donegal mans example of monies paid to American football teams) Surely there cant be anything wrong with that?
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 13, 2015 12:38:14 GMT
First of all I wish to state that I believe the following to be true and I am entitled to this belief and I am entitled to express these views; I believe that the 6 subs rule favours the teams with a bigger pick (think Crokes v Glenbeigh or Dublin v Longford) and I think it should be cut back to 3 subsn not counting a blood sub. I believe that the last 3 winners of the All Ireland should not get a back door route. Did we really need another KK All Ireland the year they lost to Galway in the Leinster Final. I believe that this would add spice to provincial championships. Its knockout for everyone anyway from the QFs on. This would just effect provincial games. Imagine the Dubs going to Newbridge for a provincial game with the danger of being knocked out of the All Ireland. Or Kerry going to Thurles next month in the same vein. Its that sense of do or die that's lacking. I believe that some teams trying to make the breakthrough are more equal than others (Dublin in 1995 and 2011 are examples). I believe that all teams should have away games in the provincial campaign (same rules for everyone) I believe that Kerry have an advantage in being the only county in Munster where football is the dominant game (the defection of Aiden Walsh is an obvious example). That said, it is more competitive than Leinster and Connacht now that Tipp are building a decent structure. I would love to see Dublin make the breakthrough in hurling I also believe too many provincial games in football are covered live on TV and this prolongs the season to the detriment of the clubs If any of this winds people up... so be it. Another thing is that I don't like long posts and I don't often read them unless they are match reports. The best ones for me where a point is made cogently and in the least possible words. That's just a personal thing though. The only regret I have in this thread is the one where I told rashers he was like Pillar in 2006 but I had had enough at that stage. I apologise to him for that. Well I apologise for calling you a WUM but I don't withdraw what I said about changing the subject of a discussion to use that opportunity to have a pop and push an agenda that appears clearly biased, or else is done for provocation. That belief was further strengthened by you throwing in quite inflammatory comments about our All-I wins in two years. To undermine and cast aspersions on those achievements is deeply insulting and cannot be taken lightly
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Post by Mickmack on May 13, 2015 23:04:48 GMT
This is a discussion forum and not a tribunal of enquiry with strict terms of reference! I feel all my contributions were relevant to the debate.
Kerry beat Dublin points in 1978 and some Dublin supporters continue to undermine that over 30 years later. Its a funny old world we live in.
By the way Dermot, I was in a second hand bookshop in Dublin recently and I picked up Mickey Hartes book on the 2003 win for 50c. I have to say I am really enjoying it. At the moment they have got as far as beating Derry in the championship. Its written from a diary he kept. The frequent references to Cormac and Micheala are disconcerting to say the least given what we know now.
Mickey was one stubborn man. The club got split over a suspension that Mickey incurred in a parish league game within the club. It led to a standoff for 18 years and some players from the parish never played minor club football. One of them was Peter Canavan!
Mickeys tactical approach comes across... he had the use of video software back then that enabled him to display for example, all kickouts at the press of a key on the keyboard. He was ahead of a lot of others at the time.
He is mad as hell that the CCCC suspended for 3 months one of his players even though they took no action for a bad incident in a hurling game. He mentions Tony oKeefee as being the head of the CCCC...
I would highly recommend this book...so far anyway... maybe I'll change my mind when it gets to the semi final v Kerry.
and where have you gone to skybluezone.... very interested in your reply to my question
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 13, 2015 23:51:52 GMT
Big big difference about having a moan and banter about one incident that has gone into lovable lore but not generally held as serious aspersion, and saying that two All-Is narrowly won, not to mention very hard won after years of struggle (in differing contexts), were the result of "some teams being favoured", or words to that effect.
Once again Mick you are being arch and disingenuous here. It's very clear to all what you were saying. In contrast nobody has ever seriously questioned the authenticity of any other county's All-I wins, nobody. You have just popped out another righteous provocation to another poster, yet you shift away from being asked and challenged about openly insulting and disparaging a county's All-I wins, in a very serious way. It also happens to be the county of that poster, which only adds to the gall of it.
I can only assume here that you want very badly to provoke a slanging match, to some predictable end. You very nearly did. To use your own words, I've had about enough. I've no time for real bitterness.
And stop stealing my best words, like skewed. My Clare teacher and my Kerry hero worked hard to learn me a few hi-falutin bits.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on May 14, 2015 6:30:46 GMT
Point of order: Kerry AI wins are routinely described as "soft".
MM I agree with Rashers - your aspersions on 2011 are "beyond the Pale" (!).
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Post by Dermot on May 14, 2015 9:09:54 GMT
This is a discussion forum and not a tribunal of enquiry with strict terms of reference! I feel all my contributions were relevant to the debate. Kerry beat Dublin points in 1978 and some Dublin supporters continue to undermine that over 30 years later. Its a funny old world we live in. By the way Dermot, I was in a second hand bookshop in Dublin recently and I picked up Mickey Hartes book on the 2003 win for 50c. I have to say I am really enjoying it. At the moment they have got as far as beating Derry in the championship. Its written from a diary he kept. The frequent references to Cormac and Micheala are disconcerting to say the least given what we know now. Mickey was one stubborn man. The club got split over a suspension that Mickey incurred in a parish league game within the club. It led to a standoff for 18 years and some players from the parish never played minor club football. One of them was Peter Canavan! Mickeys tactical approach comes across... he had the use of video software back then that enabled him to display for example, all kickouts at the press of a key on the keyboard. He was ahead of a lot of others at the time. He is mad as hell that the CCCC suspended for 3 months one of his players even though they took no action for a bad incident in a hurling game. He mentions Tony oKeefee as being the head of the CCCC... I would highly recommend this book...so far anyway... maybe I'll change my mind when it gets to the semi final v Kerry. and where have you gone to skybluezone.... very interested in your reply to my question Yes I remember reading that a few years ago .. Its a bit foggy now but I do remember thinking how weird & sad it was when he was referencing Cormac who had obviously died before I read it ... Right enough it must be even weirder reading it now after what happened Micheala !! .. Surreal .. He's had a lot to deal with the poor man !! And yes, stubborn is the word .. I dont agree with a lot of Mickeys personal views but you have to give him credit for sticking by his convictions I suppose.. I actually think that his stubbornness was a major factor in Tyrone winning 3 AI's .. He instilled that in the players I think! Canavan actually had to sign up for a neighbouring hurling team to be eligable for the Tyrone minors as he had no team due to the fracas in Ballygawley (Errigal Ciaran). I also remember Canavan telling a story at a function for my local team that one of my neighbours (who was a teacher) would never pick him for the school team as he said he was too small and no good ... Yer man has been getting slagged about that ever since :-) Its been a while since I read it but I think he was fairly respectful to Kerry so you should hopefully get to the end of the book without throwing it at the cat
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Jigz84
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Posts: 2,017
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Post by Jigz84 on May 22, 2015 9:03:51 GMT
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Post by sullyschoice on May 24, 2015 14:16:27 GMT
What did Joe Brolly say before the Cavan v Monaghan game that he had to offer a grovelling apology at half time. I missed the start of the game.
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Post by Mickmack on May 24, 2015 17:23:24 GMT
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falveyb2k
Fanatical Member
"The way this man played today, if there was a flood he'd walk on water. Jack O Shea"
Posts: 1,920
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Post by falveyb2k on May 24, 2015 21:07:32 GMT
Brolly is addicted to attention and is constantly making controversial statements and trying one liners to show how witty he is. That's how he's ended up in this situation, the taxpayers deserve analysis instead of a clown show. Given that this is bullying in the workplace(and after last year's derogatory remark about Rachel Wyse) it'll be interesting to see if rte stand by him to try and protect their ratings or if they have any moral compass and dismiss him.
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Post by sullyschoice on May 24, 2015 21:23:02 GMT
Top Comedian Oliver Callan has been a lot more insulting to Marty than what Brolly said. Which isnt excusing Brolly.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on May 24, 2015 21:51:41 GMT
Top Comedian Oliver Callan has been a lot more insulting to Marty than what Brolly said. Which isnt excusing Brolly. Surely you're joking?I thought he was persona non grata around here?
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Jigz84
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,017
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Post by Jigz84 on May 25, 2015 11:05:54 GMT
Top Comedian Oliver Callan has been a lot more insulting to Marty than what Brolly said. Which isnt excusing Brolly. Brolly is a colleague of his. If that was said by a Sky Sports pundit he'd be in trouble.
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Post by sullyschoice on May 25, 2015 18:55:28 GMT
Top Comedian Oliver Callan has been a lot more insulting to Marty than what Brolly said. Which isnt excusing Brolly. Surely you're joking?I thought he was persona non grata around here? There was a fair degree of sarcasm in those first two words alright. I can not abide him.
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