|
Post by kerrygold on Nov 20, 2014 16:59:16 GMT
To encompass two Golden Generations of Kerry footballers.
|
|
|
Post by kerrygold on Nov 20, 2014 16:59:49 GMT
The top 10 Kerry forwards since '75 have been Power, O. Moran, Spillane, Sheehy, Liston, Egan, Maurice, Gooch, Declan, Galvin. JOD might join that group in time.
The best of luck with picking the top 6 from that group. Spillane, Sheehy, Liston, Maurice and Gooch have to be in the top 6................, Declan and Egan fight for the last place. How do you leave out a man that won 8 All-Ireland Medals on the forty and a man that won eight further medals in three different positions.
10. Maurice, 11. AN. other, 12. Pat Spillane.
13. Mickey, 14. Bomber. 15. Gooch.
Declan would most likely bring more to the table than Ogie on the forty, however John Egan was mercurial in his pomp at his peak as a forward.
Jacko and Darragh at midfield for me. The defense is a minefield.
My top 15 since '75 would be,
C. Neligan,
Paidi, Johnno, Marc.
Tomas, Seamus Moynihan, Paudie Lynch,
Jacko, Darragh,
Declan, Maurice, Pat Spillane,
Mickey Sheehy, Bomber, Gooch.
Six Subs: Seanie Walsh, John Egan, Ger Power, Ogie Moran, Mike McCarthy and Tom Sullivan.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 22:43:01 GMT
Hard to argue with much of that. The only thing I am wondering is should paidi make that team as a corner back given his best years were further out the field.
|
|
kot
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,127
|
Post by kot on Nov 21, 2014 10:17:39 GMT
Hard to argue with much of that. The only thing I am wondering is should paidi make that team as a corner back given his best years were further out the field. Would have Páid wing back and have Mike Mac Corner back. harshly dropping Paudie Lynch.
|
|
|
Post by glengael on Nov 21, 2014 11:20:32 GMT
To encompass two Golden Generations of Kerry footballers. We can pick an A v B selection then?
|
|
animal
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,931
|
Post by animal on Nov 21, 2014 11:33:56 GMT
I'd find it hard to argue with that team KG. Possibly I'd have Murph instead of Charlie in goals. A bit surprised Paul Galvin didn't make your subs bench....I would also find it very hard to choose between Declan, Ogie and Egan. An argument could be made for all three. For the week that's in it we may as well give Declan the nod. It's an insanely talented 15
|
|
|
Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 21, 2014 12:34:21 GMT
How does Bomber compare with Kieran Donaghy?
|
|
animal
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,931
|
Post by animal on Nov 21, 2014 13:52:54 GMT
How does Bomber compare with Kieran Donaghy? I'd go with the Bomber although doesn't Donaghy have one more goal in All -Ireland finals than him? Bomber got three against Dublin in 78 but I don't think he goaled in a final again. Donaghy has four after this year.
|
|
|
Post by townend on Nov 21, 2014 23:11:20 GMT
sorry but Ger Power was a way better player than Declan o'Suillivan kerrygold, its hard to pick the team i know, but power was the brains behind most kerry moves in the 70's and 80's
|
|
|
Post by kerrygold on Nov 21, 2014 23:13:53 GMT
sorry but Ger Power was a way better player than Declan o'Suillivan kerrygold, its hard to pick the team i know, but power was the brains behind most kerry moves in the 70's and 80's And John Egan pulled the trigger.......
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on Nov 22, 2014 0:30:17 GMT
sorry but Ger Power was a way better player than Declan o'Suillivan kerrygold, its hard to pick the team i know, but power was the brains behind most kerry moves in the 70's and 80's Disagree strongly! Declan did the job of 3 men. Tracking back, winning breaking ball and scoring. Declan is irreplaceable. More so that Darragh, Tomas or PG. In my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by gamechanger10 on Nov 22, 2014 21:58:01 GMT
Bomber was a hero of a different age just like mick O Connell. In today's game O Connell would have all the skills but he would be wiped off the field with the physique,height and strength of the current midfielders. Bomber only ever had to deal with one marker and had oceans of space in every game, as in there was no swarm defence systems to stifle his attributes. Donaghy has at least two players marking him at all times and often has to deal with more than that !! He scored 1.2 against the tightest defence (kept every other main threat quiet in 2014) in the AI final. Bomber has always said Donaghy is a remarkable player for most of the reasons outlined above as in the number of markers he has to contend with,, the two of them are very close friends and that is wonderful to see, the generation gap is irrelevant between men that have given so much for the county and two very similar players. I think the nomination of best players over extended periods of time is redundant. The requirements of the critical playing attributes changes dramatically as the generations slip under and rise again. Anything beyond twenty to twenty five years is a waste of time for this reason and comparisons are without true measure. In fifty years time the game will be very different and the current players will be spoken of in reverence by those old enough to remember them, time rolls on,,
|
|
|
Post by veteran on Nov 22, 2014 22:54:30 GMT
Bomber was a hero of a different age just like mick O Connell. In today's game O Connell would have all the skills but he would be wiped off the field with the physique,height and strength of the current midfielders. Bomber only ever had to deal with one marker and had oceans of space in every game, as in there was no swarm defence systems to stifle his attributes. Donaghy has at least two players marking him at all times and often has to deal with more than that !! He scored 1.2 against the tightest defence (kept every other main threat quiet in 2014) in the AI final. Bomber has always said Donaghy is a remarkable player for most of the reasons outlined above as in the number of markers he has to contend with,, the two of them are very close friends and that is wonderful to see, the generation gap is irrelevant between men that have given so much for the county and two very similar players. I think the nomination of best players over extended periods of time is redundant. The requirements of the critical playing attributes changes dramatically as the generations slip under and rise again. Anything beyond twenty to twenty five years is a waste of time for this reason and comparisons are without true measure. In fifty years time the game will be very different and the current players will be spoken of in reverence by those old enough to remember them, time rolls on,, Gamechanger, That is a good post and I agree with a lot of what you say but I will gently take issue with you on your comments regarding Mick O'Connell. It is very unlikely that he would "be wiped off the field with the physique, height and strength of the current midfielders". Mick had superior athleticism and a spring for the ball than most midfielders that I have witnessed. He stood about six feet one or two and carried about thirteen and a half stone as his fighting weight, without an ounce fat. Now marry all those attributes with the professional training of today and you are talking about a formidable animal indeed. It would not be a deficit of " physique, height and strength" that would impede Mick O'Connell in today's game. Rather, the pulling and dragging and crowding would drive him over the edge. Very likely, if playing in the current era he would retire after one season. He was a purist. That was his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. In a fair jump for possession and to precision kick it afterwards , I would back him against anybody, then or now. But life isn't fair and you are right, he would not thrive in today's lawless game, but not for the reasons you outlined. Still, I am always glad to get an opportunity to write about my boyhood hero!
|
|
|
Post by kerrygold on Nov 23, 2014 10:08:08 GMT
Just because players are from a different era does not mean they could not be exceptional in different eras with different training methods.
|
|
|
Post by Chinatown on Nov 23, 2014 10:18:43 GMT
Just because players are from a different era does not mean they could not be exceptional in different eras with different training methods. Could argue that different players would excel under different training regimes so tis comparing apples with oranges a little maybe, the greats are all great when they were great:)
|
|
|
Post by kerrygold on Nov 23, 2014 10:43:52 GMT
Just because players are from a different era does not mean they could not be exceptional in different eras with different training methods. Could argue that different players would excel under different training regimes so tis comparing apples with oranges a little maybe, the greats are all great when they were great:) Agree, but they could also be greats in any era.
|
|
|
Post by townend on Nov 23, 2014 16:44:46 GMT
sorry but Ger Power was a way better player than Declan o'Suillivan kerrygold, its hard to pick the team i know, but power was the brains behind most kerry moves in the 70's and 80's And John Egan pulled the trigger....... there was many a day Ger pulled it to along with a fist goal or point
|
|
fitz
Fanatical Member
Red sky at night get off my land
Posts: 1,719
|
Post by fitz on Nov 23, 2014 19:27:08 GMT
And John Egan pulled the trigger....... there was many a day Ger pulled it to along with a fist goal or point Get Power was class, but I'm pretty dumbfounded regarding him being "way better" than Declan, @towns. What stood out that made you think so? Two different eras for sure to be considered re: skills, fitness, diet, quality of opposition, tactics, but I would completely disagree. The only weakness in Declan's game was over carrying that I can see mostly in his formative years. He did have dips in overall form too, not many.
|
|
|
Post by gamechanger10 on Nov 23, 2014 20:48:58 GMT
Veteran, I was lucky enough to see O Connell in the autumn of his playing days, I remember being in Fitzgerald Stadium with my late father and being awed by the heartfelt cheers every time he did what he did best, he was a great player. I actually didn't realise he was 6' 1" or 2" in height I would have assumed he was 5' 10" or 11". Well with that information I would certainly have to rethink my post as he has the jump, the hands and the accurate pass to compete in most decades. I honestly didn't think he was over six foot in height,, well you live and learn but I think the prospect of having to play Donegal or other stifling defensive teams would have him running for the comfort of his native island where he could kick the ball against the gable of his home and enjoy the clean air of he Atlantic. He was one of our shining stars.
|
|
|
Post by townend on Nov 23, 2014 23:43:40 GMT
there was many a day Ger pulled it to along with a fist goal or point Get Power was class, but I'm pretty dumbfounded regarding him being "way better" than Declan, @towns. What stood out that made you think so? Two different eras for sure to be considered re: skills, fitness, diet, quality of opposition, tactics, but I would completely disagree. The only weakness in Declan's game was over carrying that I can see mostly in his formative years. He did have dips in overall form too, not many. lets not forget Ger Power also played left half back for kerry, look everyone will have a different opinion on the team but i don't think declan would play wing back on a winning kerry team.
|
|
kerryexile
Fanatical Member
Whether you believe that you can, or that you can't, you are right anyway.
Posts: 1,124
|
Post by kerryexile on Nov 24, 2014 13:28:46 GMT
Bomber was a hero of a different age just like mick O Connell. In today's game O Connell would have all the skills but he would be wiped off the field with the physique,height and strength of the current midfielders. Bomber only ever had to deal with one marker and had oceans of space in every game, as in there was no swarm defence systems to stifle his attributes. Donaghy has at least two players marking him at all times and often has to deal with more than that !! He scored 1.2 against the tightest defence (kept every other main threat quiet in 2014) in the AI final. Bomber has always said Donaghy is a remarkable player for most of the reasons outlined above as in the number of markers he has to contend with,, the two of them are very close friends and that is wonderful to see, the generation gap is irrelevant between men that have given so much for the county and two very similar players. I think the nomination of best players over extended periods of time is redundant. The requirements of the critical playing attributes changes dramatically as the generations slip under and rise again. Anything beyond twenty to twenty five years is a waste of time for this reason and comparisons are without true measure. In fifty years time the game will be very different and the current players will be spoken of in reverence by those old enough to remember them, time rolls on,, Gamechanger, That is a good post and I agree with a lot of what you say but I will gently take issue with you on your comments regarding Mick O'Connell. It is very unlikely that he would "be wiped off the field with the physique, height and strength of the current midfielders". Mick had superior athleticism and a spring for the ball than most midfielders that I have witnessed. He stood about six feet one or two and carried about thirteen and a half stone as his fighting weight, without an ounce fat. Now marry all those attributes with the professional training of today and you are talking about a formidable animal indeed. It would not be a deficit of " physique, height and strength" that would impede Mick O'Connell in today's game. Rather, the pulling and dragging and crowding would drive him over the edge. Very likely, if playing in the current era he would retire after one season. He was a purist. That was his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. In a fair jump for possession and to precision kick it afterwards , I would back him against anybody, then or now. But life isn't fair and you are right, he would not thrive in today's lawless game, but not for the reasons you outlined. Still, I am always glad to get an opportunity to write about my boyhood hero! Gamechanger - I agree with your 2nd paragraph and it encapsulates the point very well, but then why did you make a sweeping statement in the first paragraph about Mick O'Connell - arguably the finest footballer ever - that contradicts this. I don't agree with the first paragraph. Taking a player from his era and trying to guess how he would play in another is not fair to the player. It’s like saying that Leonardo da Vinci couldn't design anything if were around today because he wouldn’t know how to use a computer. Veteran – cream always comes to the top – Micko would find a way to deal with the negative game played today.
|
|
|
Post by Attacking Wing Back on Nov 24, 2014 13:33:54 GMT
1. Diarmuid Murphy
2. Tom O'Sullivan 3. John O'Keeffe 4. Mike McCarthy
5. Tomás O'Sé 6. Tim Kennelly 7. Seamus Moynihan
8. Jack O'Shea 9. Darragh O'Sé
10. Pat Spillane 11. Colm Cooper 12. Ger Power
13. Mikey Sheehy 14. Eoin Liston 15. Maurice Fitzgearld
|
|
fitz
Fanatical Member
Red sky at night get off my land
Posts: 1,719
|
Post by fitz on Nov 24, 2014 14:06:47 GMT
I think it's too hard to get a consistent trend of consensus, which I think there could probably be, because the range of years in question, plus the complete variation on what "best" means for folks. For a very specific example, a couple of contributors have put JOD on the fringe stating he might make the team in time. So by that estimation length of service is a key component in selection and best is not specifically decided based on skills. Fair enough, but that is interpretative unless called out. Weightings for different eras in terms of fitness, skills, tactics and very specifically quality of opposition must be factored in. The opinions are quite diverse and without putting a template/structure on it I don't think the thread is meaningful in way of constructive debate on the protagonists of the last 29 years. It is merely folks rolling out their favourites, again fair enough, but I'd prefer a constructive discussion comparing/contrasting. I think that would be more stimulating and bring much more rich points to the table, from memory vaults. I'll put such a thread in place (metrics of 'bestness') if folks think it worthwhile and start a new thread. If not then this thread continues...
|
|
kerryexile
Fanatical Member
Whether you believe that you can, or that you can't, you are right anyway.
Posts: 1,124
|
Post by kerryexile on Nov 24, 2014 14:43:32 GMT
Fitzwop I think that would be great. I selected a team for this thread, giving a reason for the most selections but then thought that people didn't want that amount of analysis. The thread you suggest would suit it fine.
|
|
|
Post by veteran on Nov 24, 2014 15:24:06 GMT
Gamechanger, That is a good post and I agree with a lot of what you say but I will gently take issue with you on your comments regarding Mick O'Connell. It is very unlikely that he would "be wiped off the field with the physique, height and strength of the current midfielders". Mick had superior athleticism and a spring for the ball than most midfielders that I have witnessed. He stood about six feet one or two and carried about thirteen and a half stone as his fighting weight, without an ounce fat. Now marry all those attributes with the professional training of today and you are talking about a formidable animal indeed. It would not be a deficit of " physique, height and strength" that would impede Mick O'Connell in today's game. Rather, the pulling and dragging and crowding would drive him over the edge. Very likely, if playing in the current era he would retire after one season. He was a purist. That was his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. In a fair jump for possession and to precision kick it afterwards , I would back him against anybody, then or now. But life isn't fair and you are right, he would not thrive in today's lawless game, but not for the reasons you outlined. Still, I am always glad to get an opportunity to write about my boyhood hero! Gamechanger - I agree with your 2nd paragraph and it encapsulates the point very well, but then why did you make a sweeping statement in the first paragraph about Mick O'Connell - arguably the finest footballer ever - that contradicts this. I don't agree with the first paragraph. Taking a player from his era and trying to guess how he would play in another is not fair to the player. It’s like saying that Leonardo da Vinci couldn't design anything if were around today because he wouldn’t know how to use a computer. Veteran – cream always comes to the top – Micko would find a way to deal with the negative game played today. Kerryexile: I am not sure that Mick O'Connell would be interested in finding " a way to deal with the negative game played today". Micko was different from most players in more ways than one. Clearly, he was different in the ridiculous ability he possessed but he was also different in his attitude to the game. He played football purely and purely for the enjoyment. Medals and cups and acclaim were fripperies which held little interest for him. He rsrely went to celebratory functions. Indeed, as captain in 1959 he left the cup after him in the dressing room, feeling he had his job done. He has often said he went out to contest the ball fairly and if his opponent got the better of him so be it. He bemoaned the fact, as we all did, that, for instance, Down adopted negative tactics against him by a player running across his path in his run up for tske off for a high ball. I am convinced he would never tolerate today's game and ,conceivably, would throw it all away and play soccer with his local club. I would be loath to blame him.
|
|
|
Post by ballynamona on Nov 24, 2014 19:21:58 GMT
Mick O'Connell's playing days were before my time, and in some ways 1975 seemed something like a 'year zero' for people of my age group. We watched the Golden Years tape to death, but really saw little or no footage of prior games. I knew he was a fantastic fielder, but found it hard to imagine how that catch and kick game would look, it sounded very different to what I was used to. There is undoubtedly a mystique about him, and him being an island man added to that. This mystique was something that others projected on him, rather than something he sought.
There was a copy of his book, A Kerry Footballer at home. As Veteran states above, he had a Corinthian view of the game, and found some of the pomp and ceremony around All-Ireland day absolutely ridiculous. He said he didn't mind it going on after the game, but not beforehand.
One man who comes off badly in these selections is Seán Walsh. Naturally, when combining two eras, there is a tendency to pick the best midfielder from each. Jacko Shea would be the first name on the team sheet, and it would be impossible for me not to pick Darragh. Also, while Walsh moved back to #3, it would be unthinkable to displace Johhno. I was thinking of picking a team with Jacko moved to centre-forward to accommodate Walsh, as Jacko moved into the forwards in his later years, but he is probably the best midfielder we ever had, so there he remains for me. I watched the 1981 final on TG4 some time ago and Seán Walsh was outstanding.
|
|
5sams
Junior Member
Posts: 49
|
Post by 5sams on Nov 24, 2014 21:58:32 GMT
From an outsider from Down looking in and having watched all Kerry teams since 75 very closely here is my selection.
1. Diarmuid Murphy 2. Páidí Sé 3. John O'Keeffe 4. Marc Sé 5. Tomás Sé 6. Séamus Moynihan 7. Mike McCarthy 8. Darragh Sé 9. Jack O'Shea 10. Mikey Sheehy 11. Maurice Fitzgerald 12. Pat Spillane 13 Colm Cooper 14. Eoin Liston 15. John Egan
As someone said earlier...you could pick another team that would be equally as good.
|
|
|
Post by townend on Nov 25, 2014 1:08:35 GMT
I think Micko o'connell was only out played once in his time playing for kerry, that was by offalys Willie Bryan in the 1972 replay, was one of the best if not the best that came out of kerry.
|
|
|
Post by townend on Nov 25, 2014 12:45:43 GMT
heres my choice
1. Diarmuid Murphy 2. Paidi O'Shea 3. John O'Keeffe 4. Marc O'Shea 5. Thomas O'Shea 6. Tim Kennelly 7. Seamus Moynihan 8.Jacko'Shea 9. Sean Walsh 10.Ger Power 11. Maurice Fitzgearld 12. Pat Spillane 13, Mike Sheedy 14. Colm Cooper 15. John Egan
|
|
mandad
Senior Member
Posts: 448
|
Post by mandad on Nov 25, 2014 15:44:37 GMT
To argue that any particular player could be considered 'the best ever' seems like an exercise in futility, but it does not mean it’s a conversation not even worth having. Apart from Veteran on this forum, I'm not sure that there are too many others who saw much of Mick O'Connell in his playing days. I am glad to say that I too had the pleasure of witnessing 'live' a lot of his many superlative performances and, I will admit, several mystifyingly pedestrian ones, some at rather unfortunate times. There are many reasons Micko generally considered to be the best player to ever play the game, most of these having to do with the fact that he was really, really, good. At his best, he was exceptional, so good that he became the baseline by which all others are measured. Only a minority of individuals have special talent and Micko was indeed one such man. He redefined midfield play with utmost elegance skills and athleticism. He simply dwarfed everyone around him. Referees in the 50's –70's were far more forgiving in terms of things like 'rough tactics' (euphemism for dirty play) than they are today. He had a reputation for under performing against some 'dark art' merchants and there were a few of those about that specialized in that stuff. Two that spring to mind are Galway's Frank Eivers, a garda and Larry Coughlan of Offaly, and army officer, certainly not a gentleman. On one occasion Micko got so frustrated with the said Mr. Coughlan that he dispensed his own justice – a humiliating kick in the arse, much to the approval of the crowd. I had the pleasure of witnessing that. Willie Bryan of Offaly, on the other hand was a fine clean footballer and probably no more than 5ft. 9Ins. Jack O'Shea was the next best that I saw. Jacko had the advantage of playing with a better crop of players than Micko. It’s easier to perform and win stuff when you are a part of probably the greatest side that will ever be assembled - probably better than their predecessors, but that is going to be the case given the advancement in skills and physical fitness. Right now I am not prepared to accept Micko dethroned by any of the worthy pretenders to date.
|
|