Abolishment of Minor/U21 Grade

[63587614]

The new proposal of an U19 competition by congress is surely going to trapple on the feet of traditionalists everywhere. What does the forum think of this new idea.

Personally, I think it would be a welcome for players on the sidelines. Players who don't fully mature can take advantage over the early sprouters who usually make minor intercounty teams.

However, the U21 age group offers another stepping stone for senior intercounty teams.

[JOAN]

I guess I would be classed as a traditionalist in this hten I think they need to leave it well enough alone. Both minor and u 21 are a huge stepping stone for senior level..

[austinstacksabu]

Will U19 do anything bar give some of the counties outside Ulster a greater chance?? It'll disrupt alot of counties who rely on the schools system to bring the players through. Now you'll have fellas relying on how some player is getting on for his freshers team in Letterkenny IT.....

As to U21, I'd have no worries if they cut it.

[islandexile]

I think it's a good idea. The GAA is doing it's best to prevent good young players from burn-out which can only be a good thing. Inter county managers will put increased emphasis on performances at Sigerson cup level etc as the step up from U-19 level to senior will probably prove too big for the majority of players.

[lostinmayo]

This is an interesting one, a lot of talk in the media about it today. I think they have the makings of a good idea, my problem with it though is if you have it at inter county level, then will it also happen at club level, which i think would be a mistake, you need minor and U. 21 teams at club level, well deffo minor.

I think what they should do is scrap the U.21 and leave the minor grade, when people are u. 19 they're in college mostly and playing loads of football anyway and have more of a chance at burn out, they really need to think about this carefully and not make a hames of it. The minor grade has so much tradition about it, imagine saying your man was\is a Kerry u.19, not the same as a Kerry minor, keep it i say...

[kerrygold]

under new the proposals a player u17 cant playu19 and an player u19 can play senior co. football.

straight away this rules out or would have ruled out oige moran playing for kerry on the forty in '75,maurice fitz scoring 10 points in the '88 munster final and winning an all-star,colm cooper from playing in the '02 all-ireland final and winning an allstar,pj gillick for playing wing forward for meath in the '86 all-ireland semi final,shane o rourke playing for meath this year and tommy walsh from being part of the kerry panel this summer.Under the new proposals beano mcdonal couldnt have played in three in all-minor finals in a row.

so this means now that player in the 17 year plus bracket has only one under age county team to aim at to progress to county level and has only got a window of two seasons to do so.

in affect these proprosals are doing away with two great intercounty competitions to solely promote colleges football,may i add that not everyone is gifted enough to get into college and more so the more traditional sigerson cup acadamies.So what does the person do who decides to go straight into employment after school or take up a trade,after the age of 19 he has very little to aim for on the football field and the new proposals discriminate against him/her.

so the big wigs in croker would rather let all these guys in college play in the mcgrath cup.o byrne cup,mckenny cup and fbd cups with their college teams at the exspence of the u21 championship,thats simply crazy and pure madness,why do college teams need to play in these tornament games when they have their own college leagues and championships.

the fat cash cow that is the senior county championship hasnt be adressed at all, except to play extra time instead of replays in the early rounds dispite teams waiting 6,8 and 9 weeks for a game at the peak of summer while their clubs mates starve for the want of a game,while some county teams play 3 top end games in 14 days.The senior championship stretches nearly 5 months instead of being condensed down into 10 or 12 weeks.

these proposals seem to me to favour the college faternity in society while decrimates against the people who embark in other walks of life.It seems ill thought out to me to scrape the u21 championship while this whole body of college students will play u19 county football,will play in senior intercounty tournament cup competitions plus play for the clubs while those u20 and above will be involved with intercounty senior teams also.

is player welfare now all about a president hand picking a players welfare officer who will both nod in unison with each other,does every president now have to leave a legecy on departure,eg,openning up the stadium to other sports,doing away with minor and u21 etc.Meanwhile theres 5 million available to be distributed amonst the players to help compensate them for their time and commitment but the government and gaa cant agree on how to sign the cheques,comments on the daily papers grow more militant by the day and still there is a total lack of dialog,this a very real life players wellfare issue that it seems people would rather see crawl in under the carpet.

i hope the various county boards will not vote for the above proposals, not suprisenly it only needs a simple majority to be passed as wait for it, its only for a two year trial basis,what happened to the two thirds majority on major gaa issues in democrated gaa land.

the above are personal points of view not direct criticisms, but are food for though and debate as this is a topic that needs proper debate,my bottom line is that over exposure in college football is being indulged at the expense of the great tradional minor and u 21 competitions and totally discrimates against the young people in life who either dont get into college or choose another route in life,as a staunch gaa traditionalist i dont agree with with abolishing the minor and u21 football and hurling competitions,i rather see the proper wellfare issues being trackled address and dealt with.

[kerryman]

Outstanding post there Kerrygold. Best one I've seen on this forum in a long time.


I welcome the fact that the GAA care enough about player welfare to be doing something, but really wonder if scrapping minor/U21 is the way to do it.

Players are spending so much time in the gym now that a 19 or 20 year old will rarely be able to play intercounty senior without getting hammered into the ground.... unless they are the exception that can't be caught such as Gooch. So, after under 19, are they to spend 2 years in the intercounty wilderness? If they are lucky, they can play Sigerson, which is no good to a fellah on an apprenticeship/farm/not on a decent Sigerson team.

The suggestion of using extra time rather than replays at earlier stages of the championship would be a good start.

[Tackle Hard]

Its a riduculous to even think about it! its such an honour 2 play 4 ur county and takin away the minors wud crush ppls dreams! and burnout shud not be an issue! if u wanna play 4 ur county u wont be burned out! pullin on the jersey will energise u!

[animal]

There is nothing ridiculous about trying to tackle player burn out. It is a real issue without any single root cause. Sean Moran had a very good article on it in Saturday's Irish Times (maybe someone might be so kind to post it here). The example was given of a Laois dual player who represented 12 teams this year. Now THAT is ridiculous. We need joined up thinking on this. Unfortunately very often you have a manager who sees his job at underage level being the stepping stone to landing the seniors job (both club and county). They'll want to do well and will often risk a players welfare if it means getting the results. It's when this happens in several teams a lad plays for you have a problem.
Scrapping the minor and U21 grade may not be the answer by at least people are trying to address the problem.

[kerrygold]

could someone please name 12 young gaelic players that have packed in the game because of burn out, who were school boy or underage prodigees destined for senior glory.

I've racked my brain for the last few days and cant come with even one from around the country to back up the assertion from croker that the u21 championship is burning young players out.

[austinstacksabu]

KG, maybe not school boys, but if you look later in life, when burnout really takes its toll. The most prolific burnout case of the lot - Brian Corcoran.

Burnout also takes hold whereby a guy might keep playing on, but isn't getting the same satisfaction out of the game as he did. Example, Joey Sheridan.

[jd1]

i still reckon the divisional leagues should be done away with imo , thats about 5 to 8 games less every year and it would free up more time for county league , and it would also give the teams in a lower divisions 1 less thing to worry about

[JOAN]

having and u 19 will only help smaller counties who dont have the pool of players that Kerry would have. I cant see just one competition help counties like ours. There are too many players at all grade levels around the county and instead of burnt out we would have the opposite..... What are you going to do with player who are 19 n 20!! Junior?? I think the minor and u-21 is very important to a county and should be maintained at all cost..

[bob567]

joan said:

having and u 19 will only help smaller counties who dont have the pool of players that Kerry would have. I cant see just one competition help counties like ours. There are too many players at all grade levels around the county and instead of burnt out we would have the opposite..... What are you going to do with player who are 19 n 20!! Junior?? I think the minor and u-21 is very important to a county and should be maintained at all cost..

i couldnt agree with u more Joan

[kerrygold]

austinstacksabu said:

KG, maybe not school boys, but if you look later in life, when burnout really takes its toll. The most prolific burnout case of the lot - Brian Corcoran.

Burnout also takes hold whereby a guy might keep playing on, but isn't getting the same satisfaction out of the game as he did. Example, Joey Sheridan.

you could add mike mccarthy to that list also stacks,but these are later on in life cases as you pointed out,not directly as a result of a players playing minor and under 21.

you could clearly see on the road to croker that joe sheridan regretted the possibility of missing an all-ireland final if meath had advanced,I'd feel lads getting burned out in latter life has more got to do with lads being driven like professionals who have to work the next day while at the same time more and more being asked of them,more and more of their time being taken up all the time.The longer things stay the way they are,the more the mike mac's and jack o connors will walk away from the game because of the demands placed on them

theres zero debate in many quarters about player welfare,even on this forum people dont want to discuss the issue or ways of enhancing player welfare going into the future.Many feel Donnacha o connor is obliged to present an urine sample a few minutes after losing an all-ireland final as was the case this year,that doesnt sit easy with me,an amateur players after contributing to help generated many of millions on all-ireland final who will be back at work by the end of the week.This is an example of a new demand placed on players.Players are expected to train harder,spend the winter in the gym,be available to a lot of the vultures in the media 24 7 and if they dont will proberly lose an allstar as a result.The bar cant continiously be raised without something(the players) snapping.

lads playing minor and u21 doesnt directly lead to burn out,a tiny tiny majority of players are involved in 12 teams early in the year,the very vast majority will be toiling away with their clubs and one or the other of the underage county teams.

The big problem arises when all the various managers start placing demands on lads to be at various training sessions,its not the games that are burning out players.Its not uncommon for a student to train with a college team,the next evening be bundled into a taxi and driven 75 miles down the road to train with some county team under some new manager trying to make a name for himself and then driven back up the road 75 miles after training when in fact he should have been be in the pool doing a recovery session and spending a few hours in the study hall.The next day he will expected to be at college training and the following evening he will be bundled back into the taxi again and be expected to play 2 games over the weekend.

if they want to tackle burn out proberly they need to start regulating training and start making managers accountable for players being driven too hard.They need to register each player at college and involved with a county team and register his training movements during week in a transparent way and thus ensure he is not over trained and over pushed.They need to formulate responsible proper training codes of practice,they need to ensure players get time to recover and they need to ensue players have proper time to themselves.

paying minor and u21 football wont lead to burn out,proper regulation,accountability and codes of conduct towards the training of young players involved with a number of teams will prevent player burn out, not this lark of introducing u19 football only,thats rediculious,that proposal will just result in many fringe players walking away from the game as they wont be catered for.

at senior level they need to address player wellfare,they need to wake up to the reality that amatuerism needs to be more flexible and they need to find away of satisfying the reasonable demands being made by the gpa.

[JOAN]

I agree with you Kerygold 100% but I have a problem with the GPA threating strike action. thats far from reasonable when you consider that its us fan and players will suffer. But fully support some grant or retirement packages for players at county level..

[kerrygold]

joan said:

I agree with you Kerygold 100% but I have a problem with the GPA threating strike action. thats far from reasonable when you consider that its us fan and players will suffer. But fully support some grant or retirement packages for players at county level..

hopefully it wont come to that joan,all the players want to do is play football and hurling for their counties.

[Mickmack]

I have a thing about putting young lads that are not strong enough in with the likes of Francie Bellew.

Pa Laide played for Kerry before Austin Stacks deemed him old enough to play for them. One of the Meath team........ Harnan or Mick Lyons nearly put paid to him at 17 or 18.

Its the same broad principle as regards putting amateur GAA players on the same pitch as professional Aussie rules players........ which I also do not agree with.

I dont disagree with Kerrygold in what he says on this issue but I do feel strongly about forcing young lads through too quickly.

Colm o rourke made the same point two years ago....... he was concerned that his son would be forced onto the meath seriors before his time

[Walter Mitty]

kerrygold said:

paying minor and u21 football wont lead to burn out,proper regulation,accountability and codes of conduct towards the training of young players involved with a number of teams will prevent player burn out, not this lark of introducing u19 football only,thats rediculious,that proposal will just result in many fringe players walking away from the game as they wont be catered for.

at senior level they need to address player wellfare,they need to wake up to the reality that amatuerism needs to be more flexible and they need to find away of satisfying the reasonable demands being made by the gpa.

Good piece Kerrygold,.....would agree fully with you...this under 19 business is a load of lark in my opinion and seems to be change for the sake of change....for many players, playing minor and under 21 is the most enjoyable time of their careers

[kerrygold]

theres no regulation or accountability or a code of conduct with or for young players as regard training,over training and being played too young for club and county.Its similar to the wild west out there.

surely it wouldnt be too hard to regulate and register the training patterns of young players involved with college,club and under age or senior county team.Surely any young lad involved with a college team should only train with the college team say up till april when most of the college competitions are finished and then fall in with whatever club or county team he is involved with for training purposes after that.

by allowing college teams play in the january cup intercounty competitions you are subjecting 18 or 19 year olds in as freshers in college to play against hardened senior intercounty players,i agree with mickmac as regards not allowing too young players play at intercounty level.The handling of joe canning at senior county level might be a good blueprint for the
future,its proberly a good thing we didnt play tommy walsh,david moran,paddy curran etc at county level this summer.

for me doing away with minor and u21 level is the very same as doing away with santa claus,christmas and the turkey because people eat too much food,drink too much and get too many presents instead of doing away with the bad elements of christmas and still holding the christmas festivel.The same with young players,take away the harmfull elements,over training by multiple team manager,being played too young,not enough recovery time etc and let them enjoy playing minor and u21 football.

accross the pond once pre seasons training is done,its the games that keep players fit.

[osama]

burn out?? they should be looking at the problem of drop-out, Seamus Moynihan played with Kerry before he did his leaving cert in 92 and was still playing last year. Geraghty played minor in 1990 and was playing this year and dont anyone tell me they didnt have bad injuries or are exceptions to the rule.

Players drop-out not burn-out. Fact.

[austinstacksabu]

Eh, across the pond and in Europe, the amount of gym and pitch training that players do is impressive KG.

And as to regulating training etc, I'm all for it, but you haven't a hope of monitoring it.

You also say players will be coming up against hardened intercounty players when they are freshers in college.....so? Look at Tommy Walsh - the man is hardly out of nappies and he's playing Railway Cup. It's not the worst thing in the world you know.

The problem is the number of teams young people play for - that's the problem. Take out U21 and minor and stop freshers playing on Sigerson teams and immediately four or five players in an U21 team / squad are playing for three or four less teams across intercounty and club.....and six or seven if they are a dual player like the kid in Laois.

That's not a bad reduction.

[kerrygold]

what happens to the lads not at college stacks in the 19 to 21 age bracket not quiet good enough to make their senior club or county team.

you can easily monitor regulation of training by holding managers and county board accountable.

will the strong not get stronger and the weak get weaker if you start unleasing 19 years olds on counties like tipp,waterford,carlow,antrim,wicklow etc,

what chance would these counties have against last years kerry minor team playing this year as u19's,you unleasing stronger players such as david moran,tommy walsh,paddy curan,shane enright etc,what would a kilkenny u19 team do to laois etc in a game,

its ill thought out,its not the actual playing of u18 and u21 games that the problem,its the demands placed on the young players,playing an actual game of football never burnt anyone out.

[JOAN]

agree100% Kerrygold. I fell that getting rid of u-21 and mionor will do more damage than good.

[black]

Getting rid of these age groups is a joke these are the stepping stones to senior football. As for a u 19 it would be very hard to run. Alot of the players would be in college for most of the year so you are the confined to weekends which would be taken up with senior games. And if there is a senior game the U19 game will not go ahead