JOAN
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,492
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Post by JOAN on Jun 2, 2007 3:19:24 GMT
p se what can be said that has not already been said, I think he was a great footballer a great manager and at time rough around the collar but that Paudie. His short coming should never dampen what he did on the field or sideline.. He put the light back in many a childs eye and many more grow ups.. Kerry football under his leadership is why we are taking on this fourm today
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 2, 2007 8:53:45 GMT
Paudie is too much like Jose Mourinho for my liking. Both want the limelight too much.............. they want to be the story........... my comments are in relation to him as a manager. As a player Paidi was one of the best ever and was respected by everyone. We should be forever grateful to him for ending the 11 years famine in 1997. Its just that ......... over the past 5 years some of the things he has done would make you wonder. I have have said it before......... where would Kerry be without the O Se clan from Ard a bhothair.......
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 2, 2007 10:47:50 GMT
p se what can be said that has not already been said, I think he was a great footballer a great manager and at time rough around the collar but that Paudie. His short coming should never dampen what he did on the field or sideline.. He put the light back in many a childs eye and many more grow ups.. Kerry football under his leadership is why we are taking on this fourm today this post sums it up best,well said joan. i've never had a problem with paidi in the kerry context,people talk about 01,02,03 as black years for paidi,kerry won two munster championships in that time and lost an all-ireland final by a point,the team were tired in '01 and maybe a bit stale in '03,hardly hanging offenses to blaken his name as many in kerry have done when you factor in his contribution to kerry football between '74 and '03,20 seasons which yielded,10 senior all-ireland championships,5 u21 all-irelands,4 national leagues,17 munster senior championship,6 or 7 u21 munster championships,4 or 5 all-stars and 3 all-ireland senior runner up medals plus a few u21 runner up medals.If you can point someone out to me mickmack other than dywer from accross the country with a better contribution to football i will agree with your comments. Paidi put the pride back in the kerry jersey in '96,'97 and only the feeling in the pit of the stomach when darren scored his goal v armagh last summer beats the feeling when the final whistle went in '97,we mighten have had this present era only for paidi taking all bulls by the horns and driving on relentlessly from the front. You only have too view the heart the o se's showed last summer v armagh to understand the o se clans drive best summed up by tomas who dispite been way off form dug the deepest to carry the day.Jack stayed in the scorching hot kitchen for 3 seasons and people in kerry want to canonise him,put it into context,paidi and micko still want to be in scorching hot kitchen.
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 2, 2007 15:34:16 GMT
In 2004 Kerry were in a dark place when Jack took over after the experiences of 2001, 2002 and 2003.........
Jack did well. Very well.
Jack may return some day when his family have grown up etc. There is more to life that football.
I would love to see him return to the helm some day.
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 2, 2007 16:09:00 GMT
kerry have often been in dark places before and will again,i cant imagine thing were too bright in '57.
how dark really was '01 to '03,kerry won two munster championships,played in three all ireland semi finals and lost a final by a point,not that dark really,i think we lose the run of out selves sometimes.'02 was the year of the champaing football,things cant have been that terminal to produce that kind of play in the middle of a so called dark hole.
At the time paidi asked for one more year to put things right,paidi was very hurt at the time.
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 2, 2007 16:25:14 GMT
2001........ one of the worst experiences ever in croke park 2002......... like winning the lotto and losing the ticket 2003......... humiliating
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 2, 2007 16:50:08 GMT
so what it happens,
'01 tired team,that had won 2 all-irelands in 4 seasons plus a national league and 5 munster championships in six seasons,played a replayed all-ireland final in '00 plus 2 gut tearing games v armagh in '00,there amatuer athletes that have to go to work,
'02 death in the family,lads disgracefully asked to tog out 72 hours after their father and eldest brother was buried,proberly didnt have the heart for it when armagh threw everything at them in the second half,peope lost a family member that summer not a lotto ticket.
'03,maybe team were gone stale,it happens,paidi asked or one year to put it right but was told to fcuk off,not wanted.
a dark humiliating hole is not winning an all-ireland since '55,losing 5 all-ireland finals and a replay between '89 and '06,the latter two by a humiltating hiding,how poxy is it for a hit and hop lob from the centre of the pitch to bounch in the square and go over the bar and deny you an all-ireland victory.Thats a dark hole.
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 2, 2007 17:10:33 GMT
Tis easy to say that now that Kerry won in 2004 and 2006.
Not many Kerry people were feeling that sanguine at the end of 2003
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Post by austinstacksabu on Jun 2, 2007 17:14:26 GMT
We were under prepared from 2001 - 2003 - physically and tactically.
End of story.
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 2, 2007 17:17:07 GMT
its history now let it go,remember tyrone and armagh were at their raging best during that period also.
i'll always support micko and paidi to the hilt here on this forum,i grew up watching them bring all-ireland after all-ireland to kerry,they both contributed to giving me an ingreditable happy childhood.
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 2, 2007 17:20:01 GMT
We were under prepared from 2001 - 2003 - physically and tactically. End of story. the emergence of highly trained,highly motivated,highly scenticfic highly financed,highly talented armagh and tyrone had nothing to do with it stacks?
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Post by austinstacksabu on Jun 2, 2007 17:30:31 GMT
Eh, yes, they most certainly had.....because they were prepared, physically and tactically. We weren't. Tyrone and Armagh prepared in a new way, we stuck our heads in the sands of Banna beach. They prepared, we didn't, we lost games we may have won, especially 2002 where our sidelines ability to read what was going on in the second half was akin to Ray Charles playing darts.
After this, therefore because of this.....or as the Romans used to say, Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
I've been through this before, and though many will be sick of reading this over and over again, I will not let people glorify Paudi, without referencing the gross errors committed in 2001, 2002 and 2003. The revisionist history of Paudi O'Se's tenure as Kerry manager is not something I will stomach.
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 2, 2007 17:54:29 GMT
armagh and tyrone brought the game to a new level,thats not something you can predict is going to happen,it takes time to catch up with something new,it cant be done over night.
there was nothing in that game v armagh,just a kick of the ball.
why did we lose in 2005 so with the benifit of 20 20 vision haven seen armagh and tyrone perform in '02 and '03?.
what was the gross error in 2001?
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Post by austinstacksabu on Jun 2, 2007 18:34:51 GMT
It is something you can very much predict. From their days in Queens, McGeeney and some of the elder statesmen of Armagh had begun to adapt a new way to conditioning and physical training. The world of GAA physical trainers is a very small one, and Johnno knew what was going on - hell, I knew what was going on!! You never stick to essentially the same programme for seven years, which is what Paudi determained the backroom team should do.
So, we could have been ahead of the curve. What Armagh and Tyrone brought to the mix was a more professional approach, using preperational learnings from rugby, rugby league, soccer and other sports. They didn't invent the wheel. They sought out better ways of doing their work.
We lost in 2005 because we didn't stick to what we believed and knew, and tried to change our game plan to suit theirs. Tyrone were unstoppable that day, and McGuigan, Cavanagh, Dooher and Canavan were not going to be beaten. We were better prepared in 2005 and played them on a level playing field, unlike 2003. And unlike 2002, we didn't have the game to lose.
The gross errors in 2001 were a) Maurice Fitzgerald wasn't managed properly, b) not keeping the team fresh after the heavy duty 2000 campaign which lead to problems on and off the field.
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 2, 2007 20:15:07 GMT
maurices needs in training werent ahered too,maurice had his own training routine to complement his own game,some will tell you not accommodation maurices needs didnt fully rest at paudi's door.
for all the talk about bettering the wheel the recent northern revolution has only yielded three all-irelands shared by two counties with kerry been the victims twice,no other county saw it coming either and no other county has challenged it like kerry have winning three all-irelands in the same period equalling anything achieved by their predecessors with exception of the '80s.If tyrone and armagh dont win this year this present northern era will most likely have passed.
i dont believe tyrone were unstopable that day,again we only lost that game by a kick of the ball with everything about our game upside down
if we want to be picky 2005 was the one to win,not the others,'05 is just as big a cock up as '02 maybe bigger as we had the benifit of 22 20 hinsight vision.
no team has managed to retain sam since '90,losing in '01 was no shame,kerry drew with armagh, galway and dublin and were battle weary,kerry were not fresh enough to retain sam in '05 either and were a touch off the pace that day also,dispite all these so called advances in training.
paidi's record as a manager stands shoulder to shoulder with any of the great modern managers sice the heffo dywer era,o mahoney,kernan,harte,o connor and even boylan seen as boylan was in the job twice as long as paidi.
kerry had become over dependent on maurice after '97 and suffered badly as a result v kildare in '98 and cork in '99 losing both games as maurice was held.kerry should have beaten kildare in '98 as a perfect denis o dywer goal was disalowed.Brian lacey held maurice that day. paidi saw the need to change the game plan for '00 and too his credit formed a new forward set up and won a great all-ireland after a marathon sapping championship.Winning and changing things around in '00 were a testement to paidi as a very good manager.
dont forget what an achievement it was to win a leinter with westmeath,one of leinsters smaller county and yearly losers in the leinster championship toppling the dubs and ending tommy lyons career with the dubs in the process,if your familar with the history of leinster football and westmeath you will appreciate what an achievement this was with a county never to win a provencial title,proberly as big an achievement as kerry beaten poor mayo teams in recent all-ireland finals.
Paidi record as a manager with kerry,westmeath and the u21's stands up the with the best of recent intercounty managers.
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 2, 2007 20:57:41 GMT
in 1999 Munster Final Paidi took off Aodan McGearilt even though he had scored 2 goals and 4 points at full forward. Good decision that.
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 2, 2007 21:17:40 GMT
mcgearlt scored the two goals,kerry scored 2- 4 points in total,maurice was in compicious,kerry lost the game as the forwards didnt function,i agree it was a strange decision but we primarily lost because maurice didnt funtion.
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 2, 2007 23:24:44 GMT
just for pig iron,here a rough break down of the stats of the all-ireland winning managers from '90 to '06.
morgan,1 all-ireland,lost one,6 munsters,no league.
mcgrath,2 all-irelands,2 ulsters no leagues
mceniffe,1 all-ireland,2 ulsters,lost league final
o neil,1 all-ireland,lost 2 finals,3 leinsters,no national league.
boylan,2 all-irelands,lost 1 final,5 leinsters,1 national league
o se,2 all-irelands,drew a final,lost 1 final,6 munsters,1 national league
o mahoney,2 all-ireland,drew a final,lost 1 final,4 connachts,lost 2 league finals
kernan,1 all-ieland,lost 1 final,4 ulsters,1 league.
harte,2 all-irelands,2 ulsters,2 national leagues,
o connor,2 all-irelands,lost 1 final,2 munsters,2 national leagues.
theres very little between any of them,none have won more than two all-irelands and all bar harte have lost a final,its hard to pick a stand out manager from that group unless you go for jack with two doubles in three seasons,paidi is the leading title winner with 9 followed by boylan with eight titles.
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JOAN
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,492
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Post by JOAN on Jun 3, 2007 3:55:38 GMT
ya a too much politics going on around and paudie sucked into it. Dont think Paudie had as much say at times in that back room. Cost Kerry no doubt. But again mistakes are made by every manager when they win the are great and when they lose yesterdays news,We have to be fair paudie is paudie. Hard tough rough and at time should not speak but he brough Heart and pride back to Kerry football. If Paudie had not dug his heels and let me see if this will ring a bell MARC WOULD NOT HAVE STARTED.... He proved to be a vital cog on that wheel... I remember hearing he was not good enough, paudies Nephew that the only reason he is there bla bla bla... Paudie did his job. Jack did his. They gave it there all everything they had to offer at the time. I still love Paudie and I love to meet him and just listen to the vast knowledge of football he has.....
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Post by Owenabue on Jun 3, 2007 9:55:20 GMT
Kerrygold, I think you've Billy's record wrong there. (two, 1989, 1990) You also forgot all his sucess with Nemo as well.
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Post by sullyschoice on Jun 3, 2007 9:57:12 GMT
Paidi was shrewd in his move to westmeath as they had a crop of U21,s coming on stream. He had the presence to instill confidence and spirit in them and pump them up. The presence of such a football great as Paidi seemed to really ignite them. However I think he would have had to be Paul Daniels or David Copperfield to do the same thing with Clare.
Not the smartest of moves from a point of view of his c.v. (apart from the fact that he must be getting a few bob...shhhhh)
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 3, 2007 10:04:53 GMT
Kerrygold, I think you've Billy's record wrong there. (two, 1989, 1990) You also forgot all his sucess with Nemo as well. i was just including '90 to '06 abue of winning all-ireland managers at county level as an indication to displays that paidi's stats can stand shoulder to shoulder with the best of modern day managers.i said they were a rough guide as i didnt have time to fully research it,but its not too far off.
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 3, 2007 10:26:29 GMT
Jack as a manager won 2 out of 3 Munsters, 2 of of 3 League Titles and 2 out of 3 all Irelands.
I cant think of a more successful manager.
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 3, 2007 11:10:33 GMT
youd have to respect harte also,2 all-irelands,two ulsters,2 national leagues in 5 seasons with a county with no tradition of winning all-irelands,he'd had to be up their with best managers of recent times.
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Post by sullyschoice on Jun 3, 2007 11:22:50 GMT
Mick O Dwyer was a more successful manager. He won far more and did it over a longer period of time. 1975, 1978,1979,1980,1981,1984,1985,1986. Naturally won munster in all those years and also won munster in 1976,1977,1982. He also won a few leagues for good measure.
I cant think of a more successful manager.
Any manager who guides his team to AI success has to be respected. I dont like Billy Morgan, but I respect any of his achievements with Cork down the years
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 3, 2007 12:09:49 GMT
Micko has been involved in 21 senior all ireland finals including replays as manager and player.
Paidi had been involved in 14 senior all-ireland finals including replays as manager and player.
Stats dont lie,their both away out in front in the history of the gaa.
Greatness is achieved over a prolonged period of time,a good record is achievable over a short period of time.
Dr.Eamonn o Sullivan guide kerry to eight all-ireland titles from nine atempts over a time span spanning 4 decades,thats greatness.Weesie Fogarthy has just released a book with the help of Eamonns three sons.
Sean boylan contested all-ireland finals with meath in three different decades winning four and losing 3 in a 22 season career,Sean has to be considered as a great manager.
Like a great wine the great ones get better with time.
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Piggy
Senior Member
Posts: 739
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Post by Piggy on Jun 3, 2007 18:57:21 GMT
austinstacksabu is spot on,face the facts kerrygold.
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Post by sullyschoice on Jun 4, 2007 9:37:48 GMT
Kerrygold
What is the name of the book
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 4, 2007 9:42:15 GMT
i'll have to recheck that one sully,i'll check it again shortly,can think of the exact title,it should be an interesting read.
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 4, 2007 10:29:17 GMT
DR.Eamonn o Sullivan
A Man Before his Time
by Weeshie Forgarty
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