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Post by orangerhyme on Aug 1, 2023 20:06:41 GMT
Unfortunately the league is irrelevant now it's such a shame. Dublin won D2 but were far far from impressive and they won Sam. If this championship showed anything it that we will endure a pointless league, a pointless Munster, a relatively pointless group stage until the championship really starts. My real hope is David, Paidi, Seanie get a good break. Unlikely Fossa will have an extended run this year so the two lads should get a decent break. Far more important from a mental perspective that they get a break, to be fair physically the amount of games they have played the past two years seems to have had little impact. The team holiday won’t be as lavish either so the panel will return in better shape than last year😜 Agreed, games until May are largely meaningless. Win the group and you are odds on to get to a semi final. I'm guessing intermediate is too competitive for them to win.
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Post by taggert on Aug 1, 2023 20:12:41 GMT
Gavin white tracking back for Paddy small goal was very strange. He had a head start but looked leggy. Sean o shea full forward from next year on. Fumbling ball, slow and not suited to CF anymore. Micheal burns unreal block and we couldn’t grasp it and come out the defence with it. We took two 3 point leads and still couldn’t win. Killian Spillane needs to hold down starting role next year with geaney and obrien going. Need 2/3 players to come through. Hopefully rob monahan, mike breen and 2 other difference makers .. move Diarmaid to wing forward also. What is Mike Breens best position? The less he has played for Kerry the better he seems to have become, if you know what I mean. Has there been a Kerry game where he has stood out? I know he is not particularly tall or quick so interested in understanding where people familiar with his work see him playing - and I'm thinking in terms of the level of an All Ireland QF, SF or Final if we got there.
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Post by orangerhyme on Aug 1, 2023 20:44:27 GMT
Gavin white tracking back for Paddy small goal was very strange. He had a head start but looked leggy. Sean o shea full forward from next year on. Fumbling ball, slow and not suited to CF anymore. Micheal burns unreal block and we couldn’t grasp it and come out the defence with it. We took two 3 point leads and still couldn’t win. Killian Spillane needs to hold down starting role next year with geaney and obrien going. Need 2/3 players to come through. Hopefully rob monahan, mike breen and 2 other difference makers .. move Diarmaid to wing forward also. Good point about Gavin White. He's supposed to be our speedster and Paddy Small isn't that quick.
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Post by seaniebo on Aug 1, 2023 21:22:02 GMT
Gavin white tracking back for Paddy small goal was very strange. He had a head start but looked leggy. Sean o shea full forward from next year on. Fumbling ball, slow and not suited to CF anymore. Micheal burns unreal block and we couldn’t grasp it and come out the defence with it. We took two 3 point leads and still couldn’t win. Killian Spillane needs to hold down starting role next year with geaney and obrien going. Need 2/3 players to come through. Hopefully rob monahan, mike breen and 2 other difference makers .. move Diarmaid to wing forward also. Good point about Gavin White. He's supposed to be our speedster and Paddy Small isn't that quick. I wonder was Gavin carrying a bit of a knock. He wasn't his usual lung bursting self and that play epitomised it.
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Post by orangerhyme on Aug 1, 2023 21:30:44 GMT
Good point about Gavin White. He's supposed to be our speedster and Paddy Small isn't that quick. I wonder was Gavin carrying a bit of a knock. He wasn't his usual lung bursting self and that play epitomised it. Maybe he had a minor hamstring tear but it wasn't leaked. I still feel we don't get the best out of him. He should be frightening defenders and is on opposite side to Clifford so provides a good counterbalance.
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Post by orangerhyme on Aug 1, 2023 21:34:16 GMT
Im just after listening to a podcast with Ciaran Whelan and Tomas O Se.Paul Flynn was brought up and Whelan smiling said leave you phone away when you ve drink taken.The player of the year was brought up and Ciaran Whelan says David Clifford is player of the year.Now fair play to him as im sure he does nt want to go against his own but he mentioned that even in defeat V Mayo Clifford dragged Kerry through the game. He's definitely the best footballer in Ireland but it's open to debate whether he should win FOTY. Maurice Fitz was the best footballer in Ireland for maybe a decade but only won the year we won the AI. Gooch never won it AFAIK. Paul Flynn's tweet was classless and insensitive. Particularly for a man of his education and experience. He still hasn't deleted it AFAIK. I couldn't be bothered checking but it was trending earlier.
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Post by edgeofthesquare on Aug 1, 2023 21:45:55 GMT
Im just after listening to a podcast with Ciaran Whelan and Tomas O Se.Paul Flynn was brought up and Whelan smiling said leave you phone away when you ve drink taken.The player of the year was brought up and Ciaran Whelan says David Clifford is player of the year.Now fair play to him as im sure he does nt want to go against his own but he mentioned that even in defeat V Mayo Clifford dragged Kerry through the game. He's definitely the best footballer in Ireland but it's open to debate whether he should win FOTY. Maurice Fitz was the best footballer in Ireland for maybe a decade but only won the year we won the AI. Gooch never won it AFAIK. Paul Flynn's tweet was classless and insensitive. Particularly for a man of his education and experience. He still hasn't deleted it AFAIK. I couldn't be bothered checking but it was trending earlier. I doubt David even wants to get FOTY. I don’t think it’d be good for him either to get it in a year where he dipped below his ridiculously high standards in 2 out of the 3 big games.
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Post by listowelemerrs on Aug 1, 2023 21:55:35 GMT
Gavin white tracking back for Paddy small goal was very strange. He had a head start but looked leggy. Sean o shea full forward from next year on. Fumbling ball, slow and not suited to CF anymore. Micheal burns unreal block and we couldn’t grasp it and come out the defence with it. We took two 3 point leads and still couldn’t win. Killian Spillane needs to hold down starting role next year with geaney and obrien going. Need 2/3 players to come through. Hopefully rob monahan, mike breen and 2 other difference makers .. move Diarmaid to wing forward also. What is Mike Breens best position? The less he has played for Kerry the better he seems to have become, if you know what I mean. Has there been a Kerry game where he has stood out? I know he is not particularly tall or quick so interested in understanding where people familiar with his work see him playing - and I'm thinking in terms of the level of an All Ireland QF, SF or Final if we got there. To be honest, I’m not even sure… it’s just that he has the physique for the modern game, and I was wondering could we make a Cian o Sullivan out of him. But you are right, quite injury prone and hasn’t had an eye popping performance for us yet. The only reason I mentioned him because when he came on the last day, he handled the ball a few moments and looked composed , I think he could be a decent solid player but maybe that’s about it. You’d nearly want to have Clifford level ability now to stand out or else searing pace… if you don’t have either, you’ll be an average player. Like is mike breen any better than a Peter Crowley for instance…. Cian Murphy for Dublin made a nice impact
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Post by listowelemerrs on Aug 1, 2023 22:00:49 GMT
Gavin white tracking back for Paddy small goal was very strange. He had a head start but looked leggy. Sean o shea full forward from next year on. Fumbling ball, slow and not suited to CF anymore. Micheal burns unreal block and we couldn’t grasp it and come out the defence with it. We took two 3 point leads and still couldn’t win. Killian Spillane needs to hold down starting role next year with geaney and obrien going. Need 2/3 players to come through. Hopefully rob monahan, mike breen and 2 other difference makers .. move Diarmaid to wing forward also. Good point about Gavin White. He's supposed to be our speedster and Paddy Small isn't that quick. yes I found it just odd.. to be fair to Gavin , in the first half he turned over Paddy small and beat him on 1 to 1 foot races in the first half but he seemed leggy in the 2nd half… the runs stopped, maybe the mistake had an effect mentally. He got turned over once or twice in the 1st half too. Was a mixed bag for a usually consistent performer.
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Post by orangerhyme on Aug 1, 2023 22:03:11 GMT
He's definitely the best footballer in Ireland but it's open to debate whether he should win FOTY. Maurice Fitz was the best footballer in Ireland for maybe a decade but only won the year we won the AI. Gooch never won it AFAIK. Paul Flynn's tweet was classless and insensitive. Particularly for a man of his education and experience. He still hasn't deleted it AFAIK. I couldn't be bothered checking but it was trending earlier. I doubt David even wants to get FOTY. I don’t think it’d be good for him either to get it in a year where he dipped below his ridiculously high standards in 2 out of the 3 big games. I was thinking the same thing. Kerry players want to win AIs and any individual awards are a bonus. Individual awards when you win nothing are meaningless. I'm sure he'd prefer to be at home with his family than at some awards show.
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Post by taggert on Aug 1, 2023 22:20:26 GMT
What is Mike Breens best position? The less he has played for Kerry the better he seems to have become, if you know what I mean. Has there been a Kerry game where he has stood out? I know he is not particularly tall or quick so interested in understanding where people familiar with his work see him playing - and I'm thinking in terms of the level of an All Ireland QF, SF or Final if we got there. To be honest, I’m not even sure… it’s just that he has the physique for the modern game, and I was wondering could we make a Cian o Sullivan out of him. But you are right, quite injury prone and hasn’t had an eye popping performance for us yet. The only reason I mentioned him because when he came on the last day, he handled the ball a few moments and looked composed , I think he could be a decent solid player but maybe that’s about it. You’d nearly want to have Clifford level ability now to stand out or else searing pace… if you don’t have either, you’ll be an average player. Like is mike breen any better than a Peter Crowley for instance…. Cian Murphy for Dublin made a nice impact Thanks for that. I must say I haven't seen a lot of him either, and strong he certainly looks but no doubt too small heightwise for a county midfielder. Could definitely not be a Cian O'Sullivan either as he was very fleet of foot and Mike is not. Appreciate he had a bad injury in recent years but time will tell if he is a potential starter or another player to occupy the bench without ever making a starting position his own. I have to agree regarding Cian Murphy - seemed very nippy and had the confidence to make himself available for Cluxtons kickouts in choppy and shark infested wsters late on.
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Post by orangerhyme on Aug 1, 2023 22:30:12 GMT
To be honest, I’m not even sure… it’s just that he has the physique for the modern game, and I was wondering could we make a Cian o Sullivan out of him. But you are right, quite injury prone and hasn’t had an eye popping performance for us yet. The only reason I mentioned him because when he came on the last day, he handled the ball a few moments and looked composed , I think he could be a decent solid player but maybe that’s about it. You’d nearly want to have Clifford level ability now to stand out or else searing pace… if you don’t have either, you’ll be an average player. Like is mike breen any better than a Peter Crowley for instance…. Cian Murphy for Dublin made a nice impact Thanks for that. I must say I haven't seen a lot of him either, and strong he certainly looks but no doubt too small heightwise for a county midfielder. Could definitely not be a Cian O'Sullivan either as he was very fleet of foot and Mike is not. Appreciate he had a bad injury in recent years but time will tell if he is a potential starter or another player to occupy the bench without ever making a starting position his own. I have to agree regarding Cian Murphy - seemed very nippy and had the confidence to make himself available for Cluxtons kickouts in choppy and shark infested wsters late on. Mike Breen started every game in 2021 and was good. I think Jack Sherwood would've been handy from the bench on Sunday. He's very tidy on the ball. Good balance. Maybe age has caught up with him.
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Post by bishop on Aug 1, 2023 23:50:11 GMT
Éamonn Fitzmaurice: I bet this medal means more than the others for Dublin's historic trio I remarked that they played like they had no medals against Mayo. After the full time whistle on Sunday, they celebrated like it was their first one.
MON, 31 JUL, 2023 - 13:02 ÉAMONN FITZMAURICE Social share So this remarkable group just keep on making history. They have now got three of their great men to nine All Irelands. Incredibly, they have never lost a final.
After their second half performance against Mayo in the All Ireland quarter-final, I remarked that they played like they had no medals. Yesterday, on the full time whistle, they celebrated like it was their first one.
That first Celtic Cross is always special but I would wager that this one means more than most of the rest to them. James McCarthy mentioned the soul searching of the last two seasons in his acceptance speech as they sought to get back to their previous levels.
In an emotional interview with Damian Lawlor after the match he mentioned how disappointed the players were with the way they performed in those semi-final defeats. They certainly banished those ghosts yesterday.
It is difficult to know if this is the end of an era or if they now set their sights on Henry Shefflin with his ten and try and haul him in.
They don’t have to finish as there is clearly still more in them but very few sportspeople get to ride off into the sunset on their terms and they may be tempted.
Before delving into the action and the ecstasy and heartbreak let’s take a beat to appreciate how hard both teams went at each other yesterday to win. It was breathtaking. While the final wasn’t a shootout and littered with mistakes the intensity, frequency and ferocity of the hits was incredible.
In the past a callow Kerry team struggled with the physicality of Dublin but they were able to match them toe to toe here. Even the Dublin warmup was ferocious. At one stage Mick Fitzsimmons and Cormac Costello were taking lumps out of each other, which was a sign of things to come.
McCarthy interestingly also said afterwards how they went for, attacked every game this year and that it suited them better. The cautious, passive approach was ditched. Kerry also went for it. Albeit with slower attacks which didn’t help in the overall scheme of things.
A backward step wasn’t taken. Players threw themselves at the breaking ball, collided with each other repeatedly - on and off the ball - and cramped up such was the effort. There was no theatrics. There could have been more cards but it was a manly contest. It reminded me of some of our no holds barred A v B games where I threw up the ball and swallowed the whistle.
You learn a lot about people in those particular conditions and both sides can look at themselves in the mirror in that regard. Because of the extreme effort of both sides, it could almost be called ‘The Turnover Final’. Dublin forced 23 turnovers scoring 1-07 from them and Kerry forced 18 turnovers scoring seven points from this method. 1-14 from a total score of 1-28 tells a tale, if not the tale.
When you win an All Ireland so much has to be got right. To lose you don’t have to get much wrong. Dublin got most things right yesterday. The returnees certainly helped the cause. Stephen Cluxton kicked two 45s - scoring for the first time this year - and was a staggering 100% on his own kickout, with Dublin scoring eight points from their own restart.
Brian Howard was a huge factor in this. After his early season sabbatical in South East Asia the Raheny man returned refreshed and rejuvenated. He was Cluxton’s target, long and short as he repeatedly lifted the siege for the champions.
When he went off injured his clubmate Seán McMahon presented himself for a kickout and Cian Murphy also won another crucial won in front of the Cusack Stand, similar to Brian Ó Beaglaoich last year.
Paul Mannion another of the returnees once again kicked four points from play in an All Ireland final and Jack McCaffrey punched holes and got Dublin going forward when they were under the cosh.
Colm Basquel may have been in danger of being replaced before he thundered into the game, forcing the turnover for Paddy Small’s goal and kicking two great points. Brian Fenton got two points and Mick Fitzsimmons rolled back the years again.
But above all else, as this great team have done again and again when the gun was put to their head, they found a way. When Paudie Clifford punched an excellent point from an awkward angle in the 51st minute to put Kerry three ahead the signs were good for the Kingdom.
No one involved on the field or on the sideline would have been thinking this is job done but they would have realised that they were in a strong position. In a low scoring game where every contest was a war and the result of said contests appeared significant, three points was a huge lead.
They had navigated through Dublin’s third quarter push that so often got the job done for them over the years. However this year, and in particular in the semi-final, it was the fourth quarter that they went into overdrive to finish the game.
During the championship prior to yesterday, they had scored 1-27 in the final quarter while conceding a mere 12 points. That pattern continued, as from Paudie’s point until the finish, as Darragh Maloney pointed out to me in commentary, Dublin outscored Kerry by seven points to two.
This culture of reproducing high performance consistently in adversity, under the highest pressure, in the closing stages is remarkable and so hard to achieve for any team. Alex Ferguson developed it with his Manchester United teams. The All Blacks had it. Michael Jordon and Lebron James drove those standards for their teams.
The various Dublin management teams led by Pat Gilroy, Jim Gavin and now Dessie Farrell deserve massive credit for achieving this enviable trait, and trademarking it. As of course do the players. Different players have done it on different days but critically someone always does it.
When the final whistle sounded and while accepting the Dublin win and appreciating their greatness, my initial feelings were naturally disappointment for all of the Kerry crew but mostly heartbreak for Paudie and David. They are superb footballers but more importantly they are fantastic people.
They have endured a difficult summer but have continued to shine in the green and gold throughout a traumatic period. Those of us who have grieved in the past can relate to what they were going through off the field while they continued to perform on it.
They come from a great family and they will handle this disappointment with dignity. Sometimes you hope that they stars will align to ease a challenge in life. Too often that is not the way it works unfortunately. Mostly it is the opposite in fact.
It is too early to start looking towards 2024 for Kerry. I don’t have the heart for it. Yet. However they will be back. It is a young team and as Dublin have done they will use the hurt to drive them forward. That is the only option.
For now, as Garry McMahon advised in one of the verses in his song 'The Kingdom’s Green and Gold': “We savour Kerry victories, we salute a gallant foe. And when we lose, there’s no excuse, we pick up our bags and go.”
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exiled
Senior Member
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Post by exiled on Aug 2, 2023 0:32:41 GMT
Éamonn Fitzmaurice: I bet this medal means more than the others for Dublin's historic trio I remarked that they played like they had no medals against Mayo. After the full time whistle on Sunday, they celebrated like it was their first one. MON, 31 JUL, 2023 - 13:02 ÉAMONN FITZMAURICE Social share So this remarkable group just keep on making history. They have now got three of their great men to nine All Irelands. Incredibly, they have never lost a final. After their second half performance against Mayo in the All Ireland quarter-final, I remarked that they played like they had no medals. Yesterday, on the full time whistle, they celebrated like it was their first one. That first Celtic Cross is always special but I would wager that this one means more than most of the rest to them. James McCarthy mentioned the soul searching of the last two seasons in his acceptance speech as they sought to get back to their previous levels. In an emotional interview with Damian Lawlor after the match he mentioned how disappointed the players were with the way they performed in those semi-final defeats. They certainly banished those ghosts yesterday. It is difficult to know if this is the end of an era or if they now set their sights on Henry Shefflin with his ten and try and haul him in. They don’t have to finish as there is clearly still more in them but very few sportspeople get to ride off into the sunset on their terms and they may be tempted. Before delving into the action and the ecstasy and heartbreak let’s take a beat to appreciate how hard both teams went at each other yesterday to win. It was breathtaking. While the final wasn’t a shootout and littered with mistakes the intensity, frequency and ferocity of the hits was incredible. In the past a callow Kerry team struggled with the physicality of Dublin but they were able to match them toe to toe here. Even the Dublin warmup was ferocious. At one stage Mick Fitzsimmons and Cormac Costello were taking lumps out of each other, which was a sign of things to come. McCarthy interestingly also said afterwards how they went for, attacked every game this year and that it suited them better. The cautious, passive approach was ditched. Kerry also went for it. Albeit with slower attacks which didn’t help in the overall scheme of things. A backward step wasn’t taken. Players threw themselves at the breaking ball, collided with each other repeatedly - on and off the ball - and cramped up such was the effort. There was no theatrics. There could have been more cards but it was a manly contest. It reminded me of some of our no holds barred A v B games where I threw up the ball and swallowed the whistle. You learn a lot about people in those particular conditions and both sides can look at themselves in the mirror in that regard. Because of the extreme effort of both sides, it could almost be called ‘The Turnover Final’. Dublin forced 23 turnovers scoring 1-07 from them and Kerry forced 18 turnovers scoring seven points from this method. 1-14 from a total score of 1-28 tells a tale, if not the tale. When you win an All Ireland so much has to be got right. To lose you don’t have to get much wrong. Dublin got most things right yesterday. The returnees certainly helped the cause. Stephen Cluxton kicked two 45s - scoring for the first time this year - and was a staggering 100% on his own kickout, with Dublin scoring eight points from their own restart. Brian Howard was a huge factor in this. After his early season sabbatical in South East Asia the Raheny man returned refreshed and rejuvenated. He was Cluxton’s target, long and short as he repeatedly lifted the siege for the champions. When he went off injured his clubmate Seán McMahon presented himself for a kickout and Cian Murphy also won another crucial won in front of the Cusack Stand, similar to Brian Ó Beaglaoich last year. Paul Mannion another of the returnees once again kicked four points from play in an All Ireland final and Jack McCaffrey punched holes and got Dublin going forward when they were under the cosh. Colm Basquel may have been in danger of being replaced before he thundered into the game, forcing the turnover for Paddy Small’s goal and kicking two great points. Brian Fenton got two points and Mick Fitzsimmons rolled back the years again. But above all else, as this great team have done again and again when the gun was put to their head, they found a way. When Paudie Clifford punched an excellent point from an awkward angle in the 51st minute to put Kerry three ahead the signs were good for the Kingdom. No one involved on the field or on the sideline would have been thinking this is job done but they would have realised that they were in a strong position. In a low scoring game where every contest was a war and the result of said contests appeared significant, three points was a huge lead. They had navigated through Dublin’s third quarter push that so often got the job done for them over the years. However this year, and in particular in the semi-final, it was the fourth quarter that they went into overdrive to finish the game. During the championship prior to yesterday, they had scored 1-27 in the final quarter while conceding a mere 12 points. That pattern continued, as from Paudie’s point until the finish, as Darragh Maloney pointed out to me in commentary, Dublin outscored Kerry by seven points to two. This culture of reproducing high performance consistently in adversity, under the highest pressure, in the closing stages is remarkable and so hard to achieve for any team. Alex Ferguson developed it with his Manchester United teams. The All Blacks had it. Michael Jordon and Lebron James drove those standards for their teams. The various Dublin management teams led by Pat Gilroy, Jim Gavin and now Dessie Farrell deserve massive credit for achieving this enviable trait, and trademarking it. As of course do the players. Different players have done it on different days but critically someone always does it. When the final whistle sounded and while accepting the Dublin win and appreciating their greatness, my initial feelings were naturally disappointment for all of the Kerry crew but mostly heartbreak for Paudie and David. They are superb footballers but more importantly they are fantastic people. They have endured a difficult summer but have continued to shine in the green and gold throughout a traumatic period. Those of us who have grieved in the past can relate to what they were going through off the field while they continued to perform on it. They come from a great family and they will handle this disappointment with dignity. Sometimes you hope that they stars will align to ease a challenge in life. Too often that is not the way it works unfortunately. Mostly it is the opposite in fact. It is too early to start looking towards 2024 for Kerry. I don’t have the heart for it. Yet. However they will be back. It is a young team and as Dublin have done they will use the hurt to drive them forward. That is the only option. For now, as Garry McMahon advised in one of the verses in his song 'The Kingdom’s Green and Gold': “We savour Kerry victories, we salute a gallant foe. And when we lose, there’s no excuse, we pick up our bags and go.” I think it's time for the true lovers of the game to call the truth. Yes we were beaten but how much does the home venue effect the result especially as decisions by refrees in the closing minutes. I wish someone would research this. Maybe I'm a slow learner but I've been at finals since 75 and it's the first time I've realised the importance of this. Seemingly the British public could not understand why Dublin were playing at home in a final.
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Post by jerryewe on Aug 2, 2023 3:16:04 GMT
I watched back the second half of the game tonight and there was a couple of things which stuck out to me. 1. The Mick Fitzsimons adulation is going to get on my nerves. He was "smoked" by David Clifford 2 or 3 times in second half alone along with once on the first half that I can remember only to be saved by Clifford missing or his teammates coming to his rescue. He also gave away an awful foul on Stephen O' Brien at beginning of second half. I don't mean this as diss on him and he is a fantastic player and has been for a long time but there is a narrative out there that he shackled Clifford but he did not win a single ball off him and I only noticed one time where he turned Clifford back out the field. Anyway with that off my chest I'll get onto the main things I noticed 2. Paidi Clifford had an amazing 15-20 minutes after half time but it knocked a lot out of him. He did not seem to have any more energy left after it. I wonder would it have been wiser to take him off instead of Dara Moynihan who had really been handling a lot of ball and creating before being taken off. His last action was to run down the Hogan side and create a shooting chance so his legs were far from gone. 3. Related to this Tom Sullivan and David Clifford both skied shots in second half and it was Paidi who was underneath them and he could hardly contest the ball such the effort he had put in and also he was not able to put pressure on the ball coming out which gave Dublin a platform to attack. 4. After Kerry went 3 points for the first time David Clifford hit a Dublin player with an almighty shoulder, knocking the ball out of his hand but Sean Shea could not get the ball up and Dublin were able to win a free. If he had got it David was gone back inside him for a point chance to put Kerry 4 up. Instead the ball went down the other end and wide, however it was directly from this kick out which Basquel turned the ball for the dublin goal. 5. Paddy Small picked the ball clean off the ground before Mannions equalizer to make it 1-11 each. I had to rewind it a couple of times so hard to blame referee for not spotting it but an annoying decision that could have gone the other easily. 6. I think someone mentioned about Adrian Spillane slipping before Fentons point but there was 2 other things I noticed about this point. a) David Cifford was closest McMahon when he lost him to receive the ball. When McMahon received the ball, Davis was closest player but turned to go back in full-forward. I'm sure this is the plan for him to do the least amount of tracking so he can get back close to goal but he could have put more pressure on the ball carried. and b) as Fenton shot he slowed down to steady himself and there was 4 Kerry players in his vicinity. None of them made a run towards Fenton, none of them may have been close enough to do anything but it was noticeable. 7. Brian O' Beaglaioch lost the ball in contact before Mannions point. The space opened up in front of him to get into Dubllin 45 so I don't think its fair to be critical of him for taking it on. I'd be more critical of nobody making a run supporting run for him to lay if off to. Also, in this play James McCarthy busts a gut to get back to help surround O' Beaglaioch, you can see by how he is running that he is struggling to get there but he closes off a channel for O' Beaglaioch to turn around and get the ball out of there. 8. Immediately after this turnover Killian Spillane gives away a free. He does sort of wrap his hands around McCaffrey when he is running backwards towards sideline. I get what he is doing but I just wonder did need to be so aggressive when McCaffrey is going the wrong way. 9. After Michael Burns blocks the ball down Morley gets the ball but is on the ground and surrounded by Dubs. I thought this at the time and was wondering if he could have got a free. It would have been extremely soft. I wouldn't be too critical of Gough for not giving it and I think the dubs tackling technique was better than Killian Spillanes at other end of field. 10. This is something that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere but when shot is taken that drops short (I can't remember who took shot) Gavin White is right beside Colm Basquel on the 21. I'm not sure if it was because he is not directly marking him but Basquel drifts away and gets the ball uncontested when it comes back out. That gives him enough time to get ball back out to Mannion.
I know some of these things may seem critical of Kerry players but I don't mean it to be. They know this more than anyone and I can imagine they will analyzing every little thing that happened in this game.
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dano
Senior Member
Posts: 531
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Post by dano on Aug 2, 2023 3:30:30 GMT
The game could have gone either way lads. Only thing was it didn't go Kerry's. A wet ball caused one vital slip up and led to their goal. Unbelievable that there are trolls like Flynn typing their particular brand of drivel as a way to disrespect David Clifford. Like David did to OHora last year in the League final, he'll show them yet. I was delighted to see Veteran back with a post the evening of the final. A silver lining of sorts to know that he's at least reading the posts on here. Thank You to the Kerry management and team for the great year. I'm looking forward to 2024 already. Up The Kingdom.
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Post by orangerhyme on Aug 2, 2023 7:54:40 GMT
I watched back the second half of the game tonight and there was a couple of things which stuck out to me. 1. The Mick Fitzsimons adulation is going to get on my nerves. He was "smoked" by David Clifford 2 or 3 times in second half alone along with once on the first half that I can remember only to be saved by Clifford missing or his teammates coming to his rescue. He also gave away an awful foul on Stephen O' Brien at beginning of second half. I don't mean this as diss on him and he is a fantastic player and has been for a long time but there is a narrative out there that he shackled Clifford but he did not win a single ball off him and I only noticed one time where he turned Clifford back out the field. Anyway with that off my chest I'll get onto the main things I noticed 2. Paidi Clifford had an amazing 15-20 minutes after half time but it knocked a lot out of him. He did not seem to have any more energy left after it. I wonder would it have been wiser to take him off instead of Dara Moynihan who had really been handling a lot of ball and creating before being taken off. His last action was to run down the Hogan side and create a shooting chance so his legs were far from gone. 3. Related to this Tom Sullivan and David Clifford both skied shots in second half and it was Paidi who was underneath them and he could hardly contest the ball such the effort he had put in and also he was not able to put pressure on the ball coming out which gave Dublin a platform to attack. 4. After Kerry went 3 points for the first time David Clifford hit a Dublin player with an almighty shoulder, knocking the ball out of his hand but Sean Shea could not get the ball up and Dublin were able to win a free. If he had got it David was gone back inside him for a point chance to put Kerry 4 up. Instead the ball went down the other end and wide, however it was directly from this kick out which Basquel turned the ball for the dublin goal. 5. Paddy Small picked the ball clean off the ground before Mannions equalizer to make it 1-11 each. I had to rewind it a couple of times so hard to blame referee for not spotting it but an annoying decision that could have gone the other easily. 6. I think someone mentioned about Adrian Spillane slipping before Fentons point but there was 2 other things I noticed about this point. a) David Cifford was closest McMahon when he lost him to receive the ball. When McMahon received the ball, Davis was closest player but turned to go back in full-forward. I'm sure this is the plan for him to do the least amount of tracking so he can get back close to goal but he could have put more pressure on the ball carried. and b) as Fenton shot he slowed down to steady himself and there was 4 Kerry players in his vicinity. None of them made a run towards Fenton, none of them may have been close enough to do anything but it was noticeable. 7. Brian O' Beaglaioch lost the ball in contact before Mannions point. The space opened up in front of him to get into Dubllin 45 so I don't think its fair to be critical of him for taking it on. I'd be more critical of nobody making a run supporting run for him to lay if off to. Also, in this play James McCarthy busts a gut to get back to help surround O' Beaglaioch, you can see by how he is running that he is struggling to get there but he closes off a channel for O' Beaglaioch to turn around and get the ball out of there. 8. Immediately after this turnover Killian Spillane gives away a free. He does sort of wrap his hands around McCaffrey when he is running backwards towards sideline. I get what he is doing but I just wonder did need to be so aggressive when McCaffrey is going the wrong way. 9. After Michael Burns blocks the ball down Morley gets the ball but is on the ground and surrounded by Dubs. I thought this at the time and was wondering if he could have got a free. It would have been extremely soft. I wouldn't be too critical of Gough for not giving it and I think the dubs tackling technique was better than Killian Spillanes at other end of field. 10. This is something that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere but when shot is taken that drops short (I can't remember who took shot) Gavin White is right beside Colm Basquel on the 21. I'm not sure if it was because he is not directly marking him but Basquel drifts away and gets the ball uncontested when it comes back out. That gives him enough time to get ball back out to Mannion. I know some of these things may seem critical of Kerry players but I don't mean it to be. They know this more than anyone and I can imagine they will analyzing every little thing that happened in this game. 1) When Clifford smoked Fitzsimons in the 32nd minute on Cusack stand side, Geaney was making a run to back post. If Clifford could find him with looping hand pass, it was an easy goal. 2) I thought the same thing about Dara Moynihan but I guess we have to trust management. 3) When David Clifford skied that shot on the Hogan stand in the 63rd, Paudie made a lung bursting run towards goal. You can see him throw his hands up in frustration. If David had passed to him he was through on goal with Geaney in support. I think this was demoralising and energy sapping. It wasn't a difficult pass, I think David simply didn't see him. 6) Fenton's point was too easy. He just jogged through the middle. Our defensive system is supposed to clog up the middle channel and protect the D, neither happened. It was 64th minute though so we can put it down to tired legs and minds. 7) Begley should've done better. He's our fresh legs so is supposed to make an impact. He got caught between two minds. A shot at goals, even if it went wide, would've been better. But I agree someone should've been running off his shoulder. There was 3 Kerry players in front of him he could've handpassed to and look for return. Compare with Fenton point. 1, 3, 7 show how numerous times we got the ball in to promising positions but came away with nothing. I'll have to go back and watch, but at the 51st minute we were leading by 3 points and after that we must've attacked at least 10 times and came away with nothing. This is when the game was lost. David hit 4 wides in this time.(not counting the goal chance which was called back for a jersey pull. Tom Sullivan skied a shot. Adrian Spillane spilled the ball. Begley ran into traffic. The hop ball that came from overturned free. There was a turnover on Cusack stand side just before Morley did sliding tackle on Small. Clifford spilled the ball and fouled Fitzsimons as it went over the endline. Spillane scored a nice point and SOS scored free from Clifford jersey pull. So we got 2 points from 12 attacks. Dublin got 7 points from 10 attacks. That's the story of the game right there.
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Post by homerj on Aug 2, 2023 8:15:01 GMT
which of our players will get all stars?
David Clifford is probably the only one guaranteed, we will get 4 probably but nobody else is 100% sure.
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Post by orangerhyme on Aug 2, 2023 8:49:54 GMT
which of our players will get all stars? David Clifford is probably the only one guaranteed, we will get 4 probably but nobody else is 100% sure. Paudie Clifford I think deserves one. He's one of the best footballers in Ireland. It's funny he never played minor or U20/21
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Post by homerj on Aug 2, 2023 9:12:56 GMT
fair play to those looking back at the game, i couldnt and i never will. have seen a few momemts like the late misses with no Dublin player within an asses roar...its frustrating as it gets.
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Post by tralee58 on Aug 2, 2023 10:45:36 GMT
Éamonn Fitzmaurice: I bet this medal means more than the others for Dublin's historic trio I remarked that they played like they had no medals against Mayo. After the full time whistle on Sunday, they celebrated like it was their first one. MON, 31 JUL, 2023 - 13:02 ÉAMONN FITZMAURICE Social share So this remarkable group just keep on making history. They have now got three of their great men to nine All Irelands. Incredibly, they have never lost a final. After their second half performance against Mayo in the All Ireland quarter-final, I remarked that they played like they had no medals. Yesterday, on the full time whistle, they celebrated like it was their first one. That first Celtic Cross is always special but I would wager that this one means more than most of the rest to them. James McCarthy mentioned the soul searching of the last two seasons in his acceptance speech as they sought to get back to their previous levels. In an emotional interview with Damian Lawlor after the match he mentioned how disappointed the players were with the way they performed in those semi-final defeats. They certainly banished those ghosts yesterday. It is difficult to know if this is the end of an era or if they now set their sights on Henry Shefflin with his ten and try and haul him in. They don’t have to finish as there is clearly still more in them but very few sportspeople get to ride off into the sunset on their terms and they may be tempted. Before delving into the action and the ecstasy and heartbreak let’s take a beat to appreciate how hard both teams went at each other yesterday to win. It was breathtaking. While the final wasn’t a shootout and littered with mistakes the intensity, frequency and ferocity of the hits was incredible. In the past a callow Kerry team struggled with the physicality of Dublin but they were able to match them toe to toe here. Even the Dublin warmup was ferocious. At one stage Mick Fitzsimmons and Cormac Costello were taking lumps out of each other, which was a sign of things to come. McCarthy interestingly also said afterwards how they went for, attacked every game this year and that it suited them better. The cautious, passive approach was ditched. Kerry also went for it. Albeit with slower attacks which didn’t help in the overall scheme of things. A backward step wasn’t taken. Players threw themselves at the breaking ball, collided with each other repeatedly - on and off the ball - and cramped up such was the effort. There was no theatrics. There could have been more cards but it was a manly contest. It reminded me of some of our no holds barred A v B games where I threw up the ball and swallowed the whistle. You learn a lot about people in those particular conditions and both sides can look at themselves in the mirror in that regard. Because of the extreme effort of both sides, it could almost be called ‘The Turnover Final’. Dublin forced 23 turnovers scoring 1-07 from them and Kerry forced 18 turnovers scoring seven points from this method. 1-14 from a total score of 1-28 tells a tale, if not the tale. When you win an All Ireland so much has to be got right. To lose you don’t have to get much wrong. Dublin got most things right yesterday. The returnees certainly helped the cause. Stephen Cluxton kicked two 45s - scoring for the first time this year - and was a staggering 100% on his own kickout, with Dublin scoring eight points from their own restart. Brian Howard was a huge factor in this. After his early season sabbatical in South East Asia the Raheny man returned refreshed and rejuvenated. He was Cluxton’s target, long and short as he repeatedly lifted the siege for the champions. When he went off injured his clubmate Seán McMahon presented himself for a kickout and Cian Murphy also won another crucial won in front of the Cusack Stand, similar to Brian Ó Beaglaoich last year. Paul Mannion another of the returnees once again kicked four points from play in an All Ireland final and Jack McCaffrey punched holes and got Dublin going forward when they were under the cosh. Colm Basquel may have been in danger of being replaced before he thundered into the game, forcing the turnover for Paddy Small’s goal and kicking two great points. Brian Fenton got two points and Mick Fitzsimmons rolled back the years again. But above all else, as this great team have done again and again when the gun was put to their head, they found a way. When Paudie Clifford punched an excellent point from an awkward angle in the 51st minute to put Kerry three ahead the signs were good for the Kingdom. No one involved on the field or on the sideline would have been thinking this is job done but they would have realised that they were in a strong position. In a low scoring game where every contest was a war and the result of said contests appeared significant, three points was a huge lead. They had navigated through Dublin’s third quarter push that so often got the job done for them over the years. However this year, and in particular in the semi-final, it was the fourth quarter that they went into overdrive to finish the game. During the championship prior to yesterday, they had scored 1-27 in the final quarter while conceding a mere 12 points. That pattern continued, as from Paudie’s point until the finish, as Darragh Maloney pointed out to me in commentary, Dublin outscored Kerry by seven points to two. This culture of reproducing high performance consistently in adversity, under the highest pressure, in the closing stages is remarkable and so hard to achieve for any team. Alex Ferguson developed it with his Manchester United teams. The All Blacks had it. Michael Jordon and Lebron James drove those standards for their teams. The various Dublin management teams led by Pat Gilroy, Jim Gavin and now Dessie Farrell deserve massive credit for achieving this enviable trait, and trademarking it. As of course do the players. Different players have done it on different days but critically someone always does it. When the final whistle sounded and while accepting the Dublin win and appreciating their greatness, my initial feelings were naturally disappointment for all of the Kerry crew but mostly heartbreak for Paudie and David. They are superb footballers but more importantly they are fantastic people. They have endured a difficult summer but have continued to shine in the green and gold throughout a traumatic period. Those of us who have grieved in the past can relate to what they were going through off the field while they continued to perform on it. They come from a great family and they will handle this disappointment with dignity. Sometimes you hope that they stars will align to ease a challenge in life. Too often that is not the way it works unfortunately. Mostly it is the opposite in fact. It is too early to start looking towards 2024 for Kerry. I don’t have the heart for it. Yet. However they will be back. It is a young team and as Dublin have done they will use the hurt to drive them forward. That is the only option. For now, as Garry McMahon advised in one of the verses in his song 'The Kingdom’s Green and Gold': “We savour Kerry victories, we salute a gallant foe. And when we lose, there’s no excuse, we pick up our bags and go.” I think it's time for the true lovers of the game to call the truth. Yes we were beaten but how much does the home venue effect the result especially as decisions by refrees in the closing minutes. I wish someone would research this. Maybe I'm a slow learner but I've been at finals since 75 and it's the first time I've realised the importance of this. Seemingly the British public could not understand why Dublin were playing at home in a final. Yes agree. The home advantage in Championship games is big. Dubz have had great players and teams no question but to disregard the big advantage playing at home has is ridiculous. The familiarity. In some ways the successes of other counties particularly Kerry’s has camouflaged this blatant fact. You right the British public would find this strange. As they would Man U playing semis of finals at Old Trafford perhaps not a great analogy but you get my drift hopefully.
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Post by tralee58 on Aug 2, 2023 10:48:18 GMT
I think it's time for the true lovers of the game to call the truth. Yes we were beaten but how much does the home venue effect the result especially as decisions by refrees in the closing minutes. I wish someone would research this. Maybe I'm a slow learner but I've been at finals since 75 and it's the first time I've realised the importance of this. Seemingly the British public could not understand why Dublin were playing at home in a final. Yes agree. The home advantage in Championship games is big. Dubz have had great players and teams no question but to disregard the big advantage playing at home has is ridiculous. The familiarity. In some ways the successes of other counties particularly Kerry’s has camouflaged this blatant fact. You right the British public would find this strange. As they would Man U playing semis of finals at Old Trafford perhaps not a great analogy but you get my drift hopefully. They have not lost a final since 94. A major factor is home advantage.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 2, 2023 10:58:08 GMT
Re: home advantage.
Life isn't fair. Croke Park has to be somewhere. Isn't all the better to go up and beat them with that advantage?
And right now it just stinks of sour grapes and a degeneration of their achievements.
Having said that: I don't know is it right that they play their actual home games there. But the time to address this, in my opinion, is inside in the GAA and in the off season. Not after a loss. My opinion.
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Post by orangerhyme on Aug 2, 2023 11:01:29 GMT
Re: home advantage. Life isn't fair. Croke Park has to be somewhere. Isn't all the better to go up and beat them with that advantage? And right now it just stinks of sour grapes and a degeneration of their achievements. Having said that: I don't know is it right that they play their actual home games there. But the time to address this, in my opinion, is inside in the GAA and in the off season. Not after a loss. My opinion. 100%. The only solution is to make Croke Park a neutral venue and make Dublin play in Parnell Park which would probably need a big redevelopment. It's not impossible but not likely in the foreseeable future.
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Post by thehermit on Aug 2, 2023 11:04:43 GMT
fair play to those looking back at the game, i couldnt and i never will. have seen a few momemts like the late misses with no Dublin player within an asses roar...its frustrating as it gets. Agreed, I would probably start welling up watching it back to be honest. The only time I ever brought myself to watch back a losing game was the 2011 final two years later and even then it was because my friend I was visiting twisted my arm to prove to me how much of a non free Cluxton's winning point was. Suffice to say I made sure I drank plenty of cans while watching it! Weather still atrocious, poetic I suppose. Thanks to Bishop for posting up Eamon's thoughts. Couldn't help think of Sylvia Plath's line after reading it; 'I talk to God but the sky is empty' - no divine interventions in sport or life. It would have been so wonderful to see the two Clifford boys raise Sam in unison in memory of their loss this summer. But the sky is empty or else God wears sky blue, given the luck they seem to always get just when they need it you'd seriously wonder!!!
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Post by thehermit on Aug 2, 2023 11:09:58 GMT
I'm wondering, given the evidence of the last two games, if David has fallen into a bit of a trap of trying to do too much on his own or putting too much on himself to be the one winning the games. He took on shots both days when he had the option to slip a pass to a supporting player. Maybe the noise around him has gotten into his head just a tiny bit about the one man show bull. I hope at some stage the management might have a word and tell him he doesn't need to think he has to win every game by himself. We've seen amble evidence this year of the other lads standing up to be counted if things are not going his way to the usual insane standards he sets.
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Post by orangerhyme on Aug 2, 2023 11:10:41 GMT
fair play to those looking back at the game, i couldnt and i never will. have seen a few momemts like the late misses with no Dublin player within an asses roar...its frustrating as it gets. Agreed, I would probably start welling up watching it back to be honest. The only time I ever brought myself to watch back a losing game was the 2011 final two years later and even then it was because my friend I was visiting twisted my arm to prove to me how much of a non free Cluxton's winning point was. Suffice to say I made sure I drank plenty of cans while watching it! Weather still atrocious, poetic I suppose. Thanks to Bishop for posting up Eamon's thoughts. Couldn't help think of Sylvia Plath's line after reading it; 'I talk to God but the sky is empty' - no divine interventions in sport or life. It would have been so wonderful to see the two Clifford boys raise Sam in unison in memory of their loss this summer. But the sky is empty or else God wears sky blue, given the luck they seem to always get just when they need it you'd seriously wonder!!! The Cluxton free 100% wasn't a foul. BJK had his feet planted before Kevin Mac ran over him. It was a dive. It's water under the bridge but the ref helped Dublin all game. The GAA wanted a Dublin victory to promote the game in the Capital. They hadn't won in 16 years.
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Post by orangerhyme on Aug 2, 2023 11:12:50 GMT
I'm wondering, given the evidence of the last two games, if David has fallen into a bit of a trap of trying to do too much on his own or putting too much on himself to be the one winning the games. He took on shots both days when he had the option to slip a pass to a supporting player. Maybe the noise around him has gotten into his head just a tiny bit about the one man show bull. I hope at some stage the management might have a word and tell him he doesn't need to think he has to win every game by himself. We've seen amble evidence this year of the other lads standing up to be counted if things are not going his way to the usual insane standards he sets. I agree. He seems to get tunnel vision when he's on the ball and thinks he has to do something spectacular. It's important to take a second and assess options. He's not on social media and I hope he doesn't consume too much mainstream media as it won't help his game.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 2, 2023 11:32:24 GMT
I'm wondering, given the evidence of the last two games, if David has fallen into a bit of a trap of trying to do too much on his own or putting too much on himself to be the one winning the games. He took on shots both days when he had the option to slip a pass to a supporting player. Maybe the noise around him has gotten into his head just a tiny bit about the one man show bull. I hope at some stage the management might have a word and tell him he doesn't need to think he has to win every game by himself. We've seen amble evidence this year of the other lads standing up to be counted if things are not going his way to the usual insane standards he sets. I think Clifford knows better than anyone else where to his improve his game. Certainly better than me. A question he will have is: am I aware at all times of the other options that are around me?
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Post by cliffy on Aug 2, 2023 11:32:47 GMT
Anyone got Dara's article in Irish Times today?
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