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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 20, 2019 22:41:32 GMT
anything to be learned from last years final Yes, don’t kick 16 wides against the Dubs!
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Post by ballhopper34 on Aug 20, 2019 22:45:13 GMT
Kerry v Dublin in February 2019 in Tralee
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Post by ballynamona on Aug 20, 2019 23:38:57 GMT
im hearing killian young to start on Con. tommy walsh starting full back on kilkenny. Barry John Maguire Kelly is flying in training and Anthony Maher back on the panel and due to start midfield. say nothing. Don't forget John Dennis (remember that rumour)?
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Post by dc84 on Aug 21, 2019 8:00:31 GMT
Sean o Shea in goals for the kickouts he played there once in an u12 game
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 21, 2019 8:24:06 GMT
Darragh Ó Sé: Kerry aren’t in bonus territory – Clifford and the rest need to win now Peter Keane has a young team but that doesn’t mean they get a pass for losing the final
Darragh Ó Sé about 3 hours ago Over the next 10 days, everyone will have their say about the football final.
The only thing more talked about than an All-Ireland final is a Dublin-Kerry All-Ireland final and, since this one comes with the possibility of a five-in-a-row attached, it’s going to be the biggest thing in the country next week. When there’s that much noise, it can be all blend into one after a while.
The one thing that doesn’t ring true so far is this idea that because Kerry have a young team and because it’s Peter Keane’s first year, they nearly have a free swing at it on Sunday week. I even heard someone say the other day that Kerry are in bonus territory. I half expected a bolt of lightning to come down and take care of the poor lad who said it.
Bonus territory is the All Stars after you win the All-Ireland. It’s the team holiday later in the winter. It’s the barman waiting till the gardaí have done their rounds and driven away before he calls you out of the cellar for a last few before home time. Playing in an All-Ireland final isn’t bonus territory. That isn’t how it works.
Losing is never okay down here, not in an ordinary game and definitely not in an All-Ireland final An All-Ireland final is a day to be attacked. That has to be the attitude. I remember Diarmuid Connolly saying in an interview on the pitch after one of the Dublin final wins that they hadn’t set out to defend the All-Ireland, they had set out to attack it.
That’s exactly the way you have to be. You can’t be drinking in talk about bonus territory or it being a good year whatever happens. That kind of stuff is poison in the water in the run up to a final.
Everybody knows what they know about the Dubs. They’re the best Dublin team ever, the best team from any county in the past 30 years, they’re an awesome outfit to be planning for a final against. But if anyone thinks Kerry people will just shrug and tell the lads to go on away up to the city there and see what happens, they haven’t really been around Kerry football very much.
The last thing Kerry people will give the team over the next 10 days is an excuse to lose. Losing is never okay down here, not in an ordinary game and definitely not in an All-Ireland final.
I saw Jim Gavin saying during the Dublin press day something along the lines of Kerry’s time being now, not in a couple of years. And yes, of course he has to say that. No more than Peter Keane, everything he says in the build-up to the final is just window dressing. But that doesn’t make it untrue.
It doesn’t matter a damn that the Kerry team is young and full of potential. They’re not being picked because of what they might do in the future. They’re being picked for what they can offer now. Their potential is all fine and dandy but it doesn’t exist past Sunday week.
Kerry aren’t going with youth out of necessity or because they have no choice in the matter. Keane has plenty of options. There is no shortage of footballers in the county. Somebody sent me a clip the other day of Barry John Keane scoring the winning goal in the Boston championship last Sunday. If there was a sniff of a call for a final, someone like Barry John would swim home to get in on it.
Huge opportunity But he’s playing in Boston because Kerry have David Clifford and Seán O’Shea and Killian Spillane and a few others who Keane thinks are better than him. Not younger than him – that’s irrelevant. It’s a bit of a bonus alright, in that they have time to improve over the coming years. But it means nothing in relation to the final.
This is a huge opportunity for Kerry. The vast majority of footballers never get to play in an All-Ireland final. You never know when you’re going to be back. We don’t know what the starting team will be for Kerry against the Dubs yet but you’d imagine either nine or 10 of them will be playing in their first final. You can be fairly sure that not all of them will get back to play in a second one.
Some lads will get injured, some will lose form, some will get bypassed by someone else on the panel. Kerry won’t always win their semi-final or, like last year, they won’t always get out of their Super 8s group. It’s all very well saying Kerry have these great underage teams feeding into the senior set-up and that they’re bound to be sorted for the next decade. But getting to a final isn’t a given in any year.
And even for those who do get back, who’s to say they’ll have a better chance to win one than this? Andy Moran played in his first All-Ireland final in 2004, Keith Higgins played in his first one in 2006. Here we are, a decade and a half later, and both of them have played in half a dozen without getting one over the line.
The big difference between the Mayo teams of this decade as opposed to the ones they started out playing in is that it’s a long time since anyone talked about Mayo having a great year because they got to a final. There’s no such thing as bonus territory for them in finals. You either win it out or the whole thing is another scar to carry around with you.
I don’t buy this idea that Kerry have nothing to lose. They have an All-Ireland final to lose. Trust me, that’s plenty The same will go for Kerry if they are beaten on Sunday week. Losing an All-Ireland final stays with you forever. I don’t care if you’re 20 or 35, the world is a colder place for you in the days and weeks and months after you’ve been beaten in one. There is no sense of, ‘Ah sure look, we’ve plenty more chances’. All you get is a winter of people either not talking to you about it or, worse, earnestly telling you their theory on how it all went wrong.
Go to any GAA pub or clubhouse in the country and there’ll be pictures of famous county teams from the past up on the walls. In some counties, those pictures might be from winning league titles or provincial titles or maybe even getting to All-Ireland finals. Not in Kerry. When the season is over, nobody in Kerry will be getting the screwdrivers out to hang a photo of the 2019 Munster champions. Or the All-Ireland runners-up.
When I started playing senior intercounty away back in medieval times, I came through with a heap of other young players from teams that won back-to-back All-Ireland under-21 titles. We all broke onto the scene at more or less the same time and big things were expected. Nobody was going, ‘Ah look, they’re only young.’ It was more, ‘They could be good, let’s see them go and do it’.
Only thing You don’t get leeway for being young. It took me three years of championship football before I was on a winning team against Cork – and I heard all about it. Nobody in Kerry was interested in our age. They were only interested in the fact that we didn’t seem to be any great shakes.
We made it to our first All-Ireland final in 1997 and it was against Mayo, who had beaten us well the previous year in the semi-final. Everyone thought they were subsequently robbed out of the All-Ireland with the drawn final against Meath and the big row in the replay. They were back again the following year and everyone had them down as favourites. We were only young lads and we were coming up against giants such as Liam McHale, James Nallen, Pat Holmes and the boys.
The likes of Dublin’s Jack McCaffrey and and Paul Mannion (above celebrating last year’s final win) weren’t treating 2013 like it was a free swing. And they were younger then than Clifford and O’Shea and the Spillanes are now. Photograph: Ryan Byrne/Inpho P Sé was our manager and I remember him having this thing all through the year, breaking it down in terms of time. After we beat Clare in the Munster final he said, “Lads, we’re an hour and 10 minutes of good football away from an All-Ireland final. And we’re quarehawks in finals”.
And so we were.
Now, you can roll your eyes at that kind of stuff if you want. But Kerry football has been built on generations of teams finding a way to win All-Irelands. Some of them as favourites, some of them not. It’s the only thing that counts.
A few years ago, after he won Footballer of the Year in 2014, James O’Donoghue said something about nearly being embarrassed before the final because he already had an All Star but he had no All-Ireland. Because he’d been in such good form through the summer, he was nearly guaranteed another All Star no matter what happened in the final and the thought of having two of them but no All-Ireland medal to go along with them was picking at him. As if he’d nearly feel wrong about walking around Killarney like that.
An All-Ireland final is never a stepping stone or a building block. Maybe when you’re years down the line you can look back on it like that but the Kerry camp has to be ruthless in clearing out any whisper of that between now and the final.
Yes, the Dubs are great now but go back to Gavin’s first year and they had a lot of young players back then too. The likes of Jack McCaffrey and Ciarán Kilkenny and Paul Mannion weren’t treating 2013 like it was a free swing. And they were younger then than Clifford and O’Shea and the Spillanes are now.
That’s why I don’t buy this idea that Kerry have nothing to lose. They have an All-Ireland final to lose. Trust me, that’s plenty.
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Post by kerrygold on Aug 21, 2019 8:48:31 GMT
Good article from Darragh. The players will be honing in now on winning the game. They'll be buzzing in training for the next week or so.
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Post by Kingdomson on Aug 21, 2019 10:23:23 GMT
Darragh makes a call to arms - no excuses.
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Post by crokes86 on Aug 21, 2019 10:49:36 GMT
Good article. Like alll Kerry people he’s sick of losing big games to Dublin recently and wants to get the County revved up.
He’s right Kerry should be thinking of winning it. We’re here to give our opinions and talk about both teams that’s all.
Belief and confidence are great motivators and that is Peter Keanes job. He will be trying to drive that home between now and the final.
There’s always talent in the County and we have young players coming through for some of these players it will be their only final so there’s no doubt they will be trying as much as they can to win it. Just stopping Dublin winning the 5 should be enough motivation alone.
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Post by john4 on Aug 21, 2019 11:35:46 GMT
I don't like the idea that stopping Dublin of getting the 5 in a row should be used as motivation for our lads. I know the commentary attached to it will be unavoidable but as a motivational tool I think it's dangerous territory.
If a team goes out to play a match with the overall ambition of denying the other team success, you lose your own purpose in the contest.
I doubt the Offaly lads of '82 took to the field with this purpose in mind, and even now in Offaly they look back at'82 as the year they won the all-ireland, and not the year they denied another team of success.
Our lads are young, ambitious and well able footballers, they don't need or deserve to be bogged down by history.
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Post by dc84 on Aug 21, 2019 11:47:30 GMT
I don't like the idea that stopping Dublin of getting the 5 in a row should be used as motivation for our lads. I know the commentary attached to it will be unavoidable but as a motivational tool I think it's dangerous territory. If a team goes out to play a match with the overall ambition of denying the other team success, you lose your own purpose in the contest. I doubt the Offaly lads of '82 took to the field with this purpose in mind, and even now in Offaly they look back at'82 as the year they won the all-ireland, and not the year they denied another team of success. Our lads are young, ambitious and well able footballers, they don't need or deserve to be bogged down by history. I doubt it means as much to these young lads really stopping the 5 in a row as people might think. I know it doesn't mean as much to me as my father who remembers that great team, most of our boys were born in the 90s the team of the noughties were their inspiration. For these lads it will be about getting a first or second ai medal for themselves and nothing else and rightly so. There is no weight of history on these boys unlike dublin this year or mayo any year.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 21, 2019 11:53:17 GMT
I don't like the idea that stopping Dublin of getting the 5 in a row should be used as motivation for our lads. I know the commentary attached to it will be unavoidable but as a motivational tool I think it's dangerous territory. If a team goes out to play a match with the overall ambition of denying the other team success, you lose your own purpose in the contest. I doubt the Offaly lads of '82 took to the field with this purpose in mind, and even now in Offaly they look back at'82 as the year they won the all-ireland, and not the year they denied another team of success. Our lads are young, ambitious and well able footballers, they don't need or deserve to be bogged down by history. Yes the players should not and probably will not be motivated by stopping Dublin. However, for me as a fan of Kerry, a crucial difference between 82 and 19 is that Offaly didn't have the previously lauded greatest team of all time. If this Dublin team wins Sunday week, in my opinion, they will take on the mantle of best team of all time, and take that away from Kerry. So as a fan, not a player, there is a motivation there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 12:43:29 GMT
I don't like the idea that stopping Dublin of getting the 5 in a row should be used as motivation for our lads. I know the commentary attached to it will be unavoidable but as a motivational tool I think it's dangerous territory. If a team goes out to play a match with the overall ambition of denying the other team success, you lose your own purpose in the contest. I doubt the Offaly lads of '82 took to the field with this purpose in mind, and even now in Offaly they look back at'82 as the year they won the all-ireland, and not the year they denied another team of success. Our lads are young, ambitious and well able footballers, they don't need or deserve to be bogged down by history. Yes the players should not and probably will not be motivated by stopping Dublin. However, for me as a fan of Kerry, a crucial difference between 82 and 19 is that Offaly didn't have the previously lauded greatest team of all time. If this Dublin team wins Sunday week, in my opinion, they will take on the mantle of best team of all time, and take that away from Kerry. So as a fan, not a player, there is a motivation there. I think this Dublin team are already worthy holders of the mantle of the best team of all time. Even in defeat on September 1st, i would still stick by this.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 21, 2019 12:55:51 GMT
Yes the players should not and probably will not be motivated by stopping Dublin. However, for me as a fan of Kerry, a crucial difference between 82 and 19 is that Offaly didn't have the previously lauded greatest team of all time. If this Dublin team wins Sunday week, in my opinion, they will take on the mantle of best team of all time, and take that away from Kerry. So as a fan, not a player, there is a motivation there. I think this Dublin team are already worthy holders of the mantle of the best team of all time. Even in defeat on September 1st, i would still stick by this. You can make that argument, and I appreciate that that is your opinion, but there are fairly obvious counterpoints (that I won't bother spelling out). However if they do five-in-a-row the arguments are a lot harder to rebuff. In my opinion, this Dublin side will take that mantle if they do win. If they lose they are on six titles. The Golden Years did a three in a row after falling short of five. If Dublin lose, for the time being, in my utterly biased opinion, they will not yet have supplanted the Golden Years tesn. There are different things to argue about here, my opinion is based on a very superficial analysis of title won - but what will be undeniable is that this Dublin team will have been the first and therefore only to win five in a row if they do win, achieving something the Golden Years team did not.
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Post by kerrygold on Aug 21, 2019 13:13:59 GMT
I don't like the idea that stopping Dublin of getting the 5 in a row should be used as motivation for our lads. I know the commentary attached to it will be unavoidable but as a motivational tool I think it's dangerous territory. If a team goes out to play a match with the overall ambition of denying the other team success, you lose your own purpose in the contest. I doubt the Offaly lads of '82 took to the field with this purpose in mind, and even now in Offaly they look back at'82 as the year they won the all-ireland, and not the year they denied another team of success. Our lads are young, ambitious and well able footballers, they don't need or deserve to be bogged down by history. I doubt it means as much to these young lads really stopping the 5 in a row as people might think. I know it doesn't mean as much to me as my father who remembers that great team, most of our boys were born in the 90s the team of the noughties were their inspiration. For these lads it will be about getting a first or second ai medal for themselves and nothing else and rightly so. There is no weight of history on these boys unlike dublin this year or mayo any year. Spot on, stopping the five in a row won't even be a consideration for the Kerry players and neither will winning the five in a row be a consideration for the Dubs. Gavin is far too good for that.
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Post by stuckintipp on Aug 21, 2019 13:15:51 GMT
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Post by stuckintipp on Aug 21, 2019 13:21:04 GMT
Combined Kerry Dublin 15 in my opinion: Cluxton Cooper Morley O'Sullivan McCaffrey McCarthy Howard Fenton Moran Kilkenny O'Shea O'Brien Clifford Geaney Mannion Dublin 8-7 Kerry Extremely close which shows there is not a big gap in the quality of the players. We have some really top class players and I am very confident of a huge performance and I definitely would not rule out a Kerry win. O’Callaghan is on POTY form. He gets in before Kilkenny. Geaney needs a good final to merit a place in that team. But it’s just for fun I know! And the Dubs don’t rate Morley at all. I hope he proves them wrong! They tried to encourage him to declare for Dublin a few years ago I was told
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 21, 2019 14:31:42 GMT
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Post by augustafield on Aug 21, 2019 18:21:57 GMT
But scary .
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tpo
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Post by tpo on Aug 21, 2019 18:34:16 GMT
That just the same we done to Cluxton before H/T a few years back. Fine to do against Mayo forwards but against David and Paul Sean and O Brien? I don't think so
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Aug 21, 2019 18:57:21 GMT
I doubt it means as much to these young lads really stopping the 5 in a row as people might think. I know it doesn't mean as much to me as my father who remembers that great team, most of our boys were born in the 90s the team of the noughties were their inspiration. For these lads it will be about getting a first or second ai medal for themselves and nothing else and rightly so. There is no weight of history on these boys unlike dublin this year or mayo any year. Spot on, stopping the five in a row won't even be a consideration for the Kerry players and neither will winning the five in a row be a consideration for the Dubs. Gavin is far too good for that. Talk of Kerry stopping the 5 in a row is distracting from Kerry actually being in an All Ireland final, and 70 minutes from actually winning it themselves. I wonder if Dublin win it this year, will there be as much talk about the 6 in a row? By the way, in all his years on the sideline, did Micko ever have a Charlie Chaplin moustache? I can’t recall ever seeing him with one
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Hicser
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Post by Hicser on Aug 21, 2019 22:09:09 GMT
Yes, a very good article, some level of analysis. I must use it with my u12s My only point would be that a lot depends on the in game form of the players. Mayo were poor in that 12 minutes, I’d hope Kerry would not let this happen,
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Post by Ballyfireside on Aug 21, 2019 22:51:23 GMT
Games are won on speed and skill - physical strength counts only to the extent that a team is deficient is the two former skills, i.e. strength is redundant when the opponent has the ball.
I can't understand people questioning us staying 80 mins with the Dubs and we coming off of 5 in a row in our development squad/pipeline, FFS get real here. I hope we don't stay with them as we pass them out and which is basic enough logic.
Quote of the day 'You have the youth' - Eddie Dowling Ballydonoghue 1947 Polo Grounds and haven't Kerry have more of it Eddie!
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Aodhan
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Post by Aodhan on Aug 21, 2019 23:59:10 GMT
I think this Dublin team are already worthy holders of the mantle of the best team of all time. Even in defeat on September 1st, i would still stick by this. Just curious, have you seen the Kerry Golden Team play live and have you seen each player play for their clubs?
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Post by listowelemerrs on Aug 22, 2019 0:21:34 GMT
We need unrelenting support the next day and I mean support that a Kerry team has never seen before. This is such a huge game in all aspects. Bring green and gold flags banners the whole lot in to the stadium. When the payers see our beautiful flags in the stand it will raise them another 10 percent
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Post by Ballyfireside on Aug 22, 2019 0:36:05 GMT
Yes, a very good article, some level of analysis. I must use it with my u12s My only point would be that a lot depends on the in game form of the players. Mayo were poor in that 12 minutes, I’d hope Kerry would not let this happen, Before you experiment with your u12s, these strategies work when you have the best team in form, so it is not the strategies that are winning, and if they are not winning they are probably, well not winning, losing, Losing, and confusing! Strategies only make a winning team better and that's when they are the right ones deployed properly. Strategies in GAA are more often than not 'paralysis by analysis' - I prefer KISS - Keep It Simple Student.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 22, 2019 2:13:07 GMT
Well, it's over half way through the build-up, and it's always interesting as a supporter of one of the final participants to see the different stages that we all go through during this time, from pessimism through hope to optimism and back, defiant at times, overconfident or overcautious, frustrated with others' overconfidence or over-cautiousness, and overall of course generally very excited, this is where we all want to be, no matter what county, the joy of looking forward to the biggest day of the year, celebrating that you're right in the thick of it, and that you didn't miss out. Right now Mayo and Tyrone fans will be in that place, wondering when is they next time they will experience that thrill, that glow of being there on the biggest day. Missing that special feeling from last year, and from several years being right in it in Mayo's case.
I was looking back at some finals in the 80s and 90s, it can trigger those intense memories/feelings of either thrill or downheartedness when your team was or wasn't in the final, that only a younger person would feel in comparison to when you are older, I would say, for most people. And the memories of those days when everyone seemed to have a flag in the ground. For Kerry in the 00s and us in this decade it was/has been a thing that was/is easily taken for granted, being in yet another final. So it's good and important sometimes to just stop and smell the roses as the saying goes. And it's almost time to make predictions!
I think Kerry will have come on alot as a team from their semifinal experience. And their young lads who have little or no baggage will mostly seize the day on sunday week and perform to a very high level. Because their coach seems well able to facilitate that, to allow them to get that out of themselves. And then he is also looking like the sort of coach who can get the best out of some lads who've been around a while, and who maybe weren't doing so well previously. That's the sign of a special coach, not to forget his assistants. Clearly, as has been well documented, he/they have their team finishing games very strongly, for the most part. This seems to be a prerequisite for winning the biggest games and contests going back generations. Some of that is down to the quality of individual players and leaders on the field. Some lads just seem to grow and produce their best when it is most needed.
I think Dublin will look back to the away league games of the last two years, and the league final of two years ago, and know that Kerry are a team that are providing a challenge that they didn't quite manage in the couple of years prior to that, and are getting better. They will expect to be able to overcome it but the fact is that the last three close contests between the counties, three of the last four games, have ended with two narrow Kerry wins and a draw. None of them were championship but I recall very well that during the early days of this decade/era Dublin began to emerge as a serious force by narrowly winning league games against the likes of Kerry.
I'm not saying Kerry are quite at the level Dublin were in 2011 yet, but I would say you could argue that Kerry currently have better forwards than Dublin had in 2011, taken as a unit. What they lack some of them is much experience at this level, but then also on the day back then two players (McMenamon and Connolly) emerged as huge leaders in a way we didn't realise or know they would prior to that. In fact you could say the same for Cluxton. Kerry will need the emergence of players on that sort of scale to win this final, and for Dublin to not perform to their best for at least 20 minutes. Which of course has happened a couple of times Vs Mayo in recent years, and this is uncharted territory in terms of what is at stake.
I think Kerry though may be the ones to start nervously and slow, unless Peter Keane & co truly have the magic elixir at their disposal. So I can see Dublin get a few points ahead, maybe even get an early goal. And everyone will say "oh here we go just as expected" but I don't believe Dublin can get away permanently, no more than they couldn't Vs Mayo in 2015 & 16 replays and 17 final, all games where they had a very good start. But if Kerry are to win they will be bringing a period of ferocious pace and physicality to the game that will yield a good few scores and leave Dublin reeling, probably the last 15 minutes of the first half, and then early in the second, and towards the end. If Dublin can match two of those periods, and have one period of dominance, then it's down to who scores most while on top, and who finishes the game with either the vital scores, or simply just the last score, if it's very tight.
It's a clichee and a cop-out but I think this could well end up as a draw. And I think it will be lower-scoring than many expect, of course the weather may be a factor. Pace and tight marking are what Kerry need, along with the given that their forwards have enough economy on chances, and the given that their players have the footballing ability and leadership to control possession, that will give them an opportunity to win. It has always been thus, when all the talk of systems etc is done.
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Post by ballhopper34 on Aug 22, 2019 6:39:35 GMT
I think it all comes down to adaptability...in other words changing the style of play at the drop of a hat/command from the sideline.
We often see it in the NBA when teams "go big" or "go small" in the space of a single time-out. Someone referenced an arm signal amongst the Dublin players to go into a ball retention cycle for a few minutes...this is the level of sophistication the game of Gaelic football is at in 2019.
Switching from sweeper to man-to-man to cover number 6 position is what Kerry need to work on. This keeps the opposition guessing, because we all know if you play one system and one system only, Dublin's team intelligence (not even counting sideline intelligence) will figure it out and they will win.
So Kerry need to mix it up...just like an underdog in a championship fight. Keep changing the point of attack, keep mixing the defensive structure, keep playing on Kerry's terms...and you never know what might happen.
I, for one, think we have the intelligence on the sideline and within the players to come very close to winning this game. Find something that is working, then move away from it...keeping it in reserve for the final 5 minutes (which will be minutes 70 to 75, not 65 to 70). Don't give the opposition the opportunity to make the changes that take away our advantages.
This could be a great game, simply because Kerry will try to win it. We are at the top table, maybe not in the top position at the top table, but we might be moved up a bit on the day. If anyone can find a reference like that I'd love to hear it.
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 22, 2019 9:36:35 GMT
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Post by glengael on Aug 22, 2019 9:48:38 GMT
Nice to see the colour out in some towns and villages. The schools lose out with these new early finals. Many primary schools will only be back late next week which doesn't give them much time to enjoy the build up, colour etc. (yes I know it's different for secondary schools, many are back this week, but primary schools are more dispersed and bring a lovely flash of colour all across participating counties).
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Post by a01bf4eb on Aug 22, 2019 9:57:44 GMT
A good read. Dublin will have worked on all areas of weakness since the league game. One simple point stood out though, Kerry directed all of their own kick outs away from Fenton. So simplistic, yet Mayo in the heat of the onslaught put 3 long kick outs on top of Fenton in the 2nd half (4 in the game in total). Kerry need to find a way to secure kick out possession after Dublin score especially if it's a goal.
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