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Post by jackiel on Aug 22, 2019 10:00:34 GMT
I've gone from thinking we've not a lot of hope to thinking yes of course it is possible to beat them and now the more I read I'm even more torn - what if its a draw!! Planning a holiday and trying to work out the date of a replay.
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Post by oldschool on Aug 22, 2019 10:05:37 GMT
A good read. Dublin will have worked on all areas of weakness since the league game. One simple point stood out though, Kerry directed all of their own kick outs away from Fenton. So simplistic, yet Mayo in the heat of the onslaught put 3 long kick outs on top of Fenton in the 2nd half (4 in the game in total). Kerry need to find a way to secure kick out possession after Dublin score especially if it's a goal. Absolutely right. The game can be won or lost on kick out strategy at both ends
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Hicser
Senior Member
Posts: 381
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Post by Hicser on Aug 22, 2019 10:11:55 GMT
Yes, a very good article, some level of analysis. I must use it with my u12s My only point would be that a lot depends on the in game form of the players. Mayo were poor in that 12 minutes, I’d hope Kerry would not let this happen, Before you experiment with your u12s, these strategies work when you have the best team in form, so it is not the strategies that are winning, and if they are not winning they are probably, well not winning, losing, Losing, and confusing! Strategies only make a winning team better and that's when they are the right ones deployed properly. Strategies in GAA are more often than not 'paralysis by analysis' - I prefer KISS - Keep It Simple Student. Seriously, I was joking with my u12s comment!
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Post by veteran on Aug 22, 2019 10:21:55 GMT
Kerryheadred feels Dublin are the best team of all time , even if they are defeated the next day. An interesting claim, extraordinary indeed. When somebody says to me that such and such a player or such and such a team were the greatest of all time I am immediately star struck because I know that very likely I am in the presence of the oldest living person in the whole ,wide world. After recovering my composure I gently dismiss his opinion because at his age the ravages of dementia have set in. What I am trying to say is that when discussing football, particularly aspects which cannot be compared and measured accurately, the phrase "of all time" should be used very rarely, if at all.
Wexford and Kerry won four in a row titles way back but I cannot comment on the relative merits of the teams because I never saw them play, neither did Kerryheadred I would imagine. So, I will be charitable and assume he is referring to Dublin of the present era vis a vis Kerry of the golden years. To appreciate that Kerry team in an adult fashion one would need to be aged fifty plus now. I do not know if Kerryheadred had reached the ago of football reason to witness that Kerry team in the flesh. If not, I suggest he should not be making claims he cannot substantiate, hearsay is not admissible. But perhaps ha was of a sufficient age to make a rational assessment of that team and is therefore allowed back into the discourse with the rider that he acknowledges that the phrase "of all time" is usually preserve of bluffers.
So to the nub of Kerryheadred's thesis, that this Dublin team is greater than Kerry of the golden years. He may be right and indeed there are a lot of people who would agree with him although most of those people would be prepared to suspend judgement until the outcome of the final is known. If Dublin win that match then those people can at least point to the fact that Dublin achieved five in a row whereas Kerry did not. But Kerrheadred does not need the affirmation of the five in a row to assert Dublin's pre-eminence. I find that a little difficult to accept.
I have been following football for sixty years or more and I usually shy away from comparing players and teams from different era. For the most part I find those comparisons odious. It is like comparing chalk and cheese. If you want to compare these Kerry/Dublin teams one would need to be able to play tricks with time and pluck that Kerry team into the present and subject them to the advances made in various disciples that Dublin of the present era enjoy: increased knowledge in medical and diagnostic and physiotherapy fields, increased knowledge in nutrition and dietetics, increased knowledge in optimal coaching/training methods, increased knowledge in rest and recovery, increased knowledge in the field of psychology, increased knowledge in statistical and video analysis etc etc. It is reasonable to assume that Kerry of the golden years would be enhanced considerably if all those aids had been available to them. Conversely, if the present Dublin team could be dragged back to the seventies/eighties and could only avail of the aids of the time how would they fare? If we cannot make these time adjustments then comparison is futile,little more than pub talk.
On a final point. If somebody thinks that it is valid to compare these two teams the least they could do is go through the teams, position by position. Compare Charlie Nelligan to Stephen Cluxton, Paidi to Phil McMahon etc and come down on the side of one players with reasons for the selection. That is the least I would expect from some one daring or naïve enough to say one team is superior to the other.
Some years ago there was a debate on the relative merits of Muhammad Ali and Rocky Marciano as to was was the greater heavyweight boxer,they being from different era and both having their adherents. They collated every available data in respect of both contenders and fed it into a computer. I am not sure what the outcome was but there was no shortage of controversary in any case. Perhaps some bright, unbiased undergraduate would undertake that exercise in respect of Kerry/Dublin as a subject for an advanced university degree. The results would be intriguing but would be unlikely to settle the debate I suspect.
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Post by dc84 on Aug 22, 2019 10:26:47 GMT
It does show alright that as good as everyone else is on that team Fenton is the catalyst they haven't lost a game in the championship when he was playing. Fenton cluxton Cooper and McCarthy are the irreplaceables on this team imo, they have a lot of other very good players but they have replacements in those positions. We should detail someone for Fenton alright and let Mcauley worry about Moran.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Aug 22, 2019 11:34:07 GMT
I've gone from thinking we've not a lot of hope to thinking yes of course it is possible to beat them and now the more I read I'm even more torn - what if its a draw!! Planning a holiday and trying to work out the date of a replay. The result may also impact the destination?
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tonydorigo
Full Member
yerra you know yourself shur
Posts: 176
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Post by tonydorigo on Aug 22, 2019 12:05:19 GMT
Do people here on the forum think that Jack Barry will supersede Adrian Spillane and Jack Sherwood for the midfield spot?
He has done a good job on him in the past but they have been league games. As a previous poster stated, if we start worrrying too much about stopping Dublin players from playing then we will lose track of actually playing our own game.
It is going to be a long 10 days!
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Post by dc84 on Aug 22, 2019 12:24:08 GMT
Do people here on the forum think that Jack Barry will supersede Adrian Spillane and Jack Sherwood for the midfield spot? He has done a good job on him in the past but they have been league games. As a previous poster stated, if we start worrrying too much about stopping Dublin players from playing then we will lose track of actually playing our own game. It is going to be a long 10 days! Like any match you always have to keep one eye on the opposition, do you think dublin aren't planning around curtailing our forwards and David Moran influence.gavin had that attitude once in 2014 and lost that game vs Donegal because of it. Match ups are key and as such we can only speculate about what we will do can't make a dublin back pick up one of our forwards really as Lar corbett found out that time! Mayo got it wrong against dublin by putting Durcan on mcaffrey he would've been better off on Fenton maybe or one of the forwards. I do agree generally though the team needs to find the right balance between disrupting dublins game and playing our own. Tyrone lost the game last year by playing with fear and trying to contain that won't win an ai
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keane
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Post by keane on Aug 22, 2019 12:29:35 GMT
People seem to think any hint at all of planning for Dublin's best players amounts to too much worrying about Dublin.
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Post by colinsworth1 on Aug 22, 2019 12:30:22 GMT
Do people here on the forum think that Jack Barry will supersede Adrian Spillane and Jack Sherwood for the midfield spot? He has done a good job on him in the past but they have been league games. As a previous poster stated, if we start worrrying too much about stopping Dublin players from playing then we will lose track of actually playing our own game. It is going to be a long 10 days! Our team needed a point guard to use basketball parlance someone to bring the ball up ,some one to spray the passes some one to mix it up and run direct at times and be like the fox in the chicken coup and cause a bit of panic some one to not be afraid to shoot when the shot is on that has been Sherwood . Neither Adrian or Jack have offered any of this go forward ball resulting a total lack of creative ball for all up front . Sherwood is not a stopper but he might make Fintan and Mc Cauley run backwards for the first time this year . We can set up conservative and rotate jack and Adrian on Fintan but you still need Sherwood as your playmaker otherwise we’re back to the bad old days Possible to put Sherwood in for Killian and play him third midfielder Leaving two up top which is plenty
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Post by colinsworth1 on Aug 22, 2019 12:49:41 GMT
Do people here on the forum think that Jack Barry will supersede Adrian Spillane and Jack Sherwood for the midfield spot? He has done a good job on him in the past but they have been league games. As a previous poster stated, if we start worrrying too much about stopping Dublin players from playing then we will lose track of actually playing our own game. It is going to be a long 10 days! Our team needed a point guard to use basketball parlance someone to bring the ball up ,some one to spray the passes some one to mix it up and run direct at times and be like the fox in the chicken coup and cause a bit of panic some one to not be afraid to shoot when the shot is on that has been Sherwood . Neither Adrian or Jack have offered any of this go forward ball resulting a total lack of creative ball for all up front . Sherwood is not a stopper but he might make Fintan and Mc Cauley run backwards for the first time this year . We can set up conservative and rotate jack and Adrian on Fintan but you still need Sherwood as your playmaker otherwise we’re back to the bad old days Possible to put Sherwood in for Killian and play him third midfielder Leaving two up top which is plenty But forgetting about systems and strategy for a minute I’m convinced that if we can simply sharpen up the point scoring all players back s and forwards and definitely midfielders left and right foot then we have a huge chance Of course we could use at least one goal at minimum Last year Tyrone had 16 wides v Dublin in Final and many at critical times Mayo has a chance this year to get back in even after the two quick goal but again their shooting wasn’t simply good enough Meath v Dublin this year Shooting absolutely poor Are people over thinking defensive strategy and neglecting the scoring side it certainly appears that way ! I’m banking on good high scoring percentage why not this is what we do best ? Or is it ?
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 22, 2019 12:55:43 GMT
People seem to think any hint at all of planning for Dublin's best players amounts to too much worrying about Dublin. I don’t think anyone has said that to be fair. What was said is that Kerry must try and put their own stamp on the game and make Dublin worry about us as much as we worry about them. Of course get our match ups right and game scenarios sorted. That’s a given. Anyway, we’re all just shooting the breeze here.
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Derek
Senior Member
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Post by Derek on Aug 22, 2019 13:05:44 GMT
Do people here on the forum think that Jack Barry will supersede Adrian Spillane and Jack Sherwood for the midfield spot? He has done a good job on him in the past but they have been league games. As a previous poster stated, if we start worrrying too much about stopping Dublin players from playing then we will lose track of actually playing our own game. It is going to be a long 10 days! Our team needed a point guard to use basketball parlance someone to bring the ball up ,some one to spray the passes some one to mix it up and run direct at times and be like the fox in the chicken coup and cause a bit of panic some one to not be afraid to shoot when the shot is on that has been Sherwood . Neither Adrian or Jack have offered any of this go forward ball resulting a total lack of creative ball for all up front . Sherwood is not a stopper but he might make Fintan and Mc Cauley run backwards for the first time this year . We can set up conservative and rotate jack and Adrian on Fintan but you still need Sherwood as your playmaker otherwise we’re back to the bad old days Possible to put Sherwood in for Killian and play him third midfielder Leaving two up top which is plenty Think Jack Sherwood is a great shout as a 3rd midfielder - has the physical size and ability to be an option for kick outs. But the go forward ball he offers as a play maker saw our best football in the later stages of the Donegal and Tyrone games. Also Dublin would have to send someone out to mark him creating space for the lads inside.
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tonydorigo
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yerra you know yourself shur
Posts: 176
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Post by tonydorigo on Aug 22, 2019 13:20:03 GMT
Our team needed a point guard to use basketball parlance someone to bring the ball up ,some one to spray the passes some one to mix it up and run direct at times and be like the fox in the chicken coup and cause a bit of panic some one to not be afraid to shoot when the shot is on that has been Sherwood . Neither Adrian or Jack have offered any of this go forward ball resulting a total lack of creative ball for all up front . Sherwood is not a stopper but he might make Fintan and Mc Cauley run backwards for the first time this year . We can set up conservative and rotate jack and Adrian on Fintan but you still need Sherwood as your playmaker otherwise we’re back to the bad old days Possible to put Sherwood in for Killian and play him third midfielder Leaving two up top which is plenty Think Jack Sherwood is a great shout as a 3rd midfielder - has the physical size and ability to be an option for kick outs. But the go forward ball he offers as a play maker saw our best football in the later stages of the Donegal and Tyrone games. Also Dublin would have to send someone out to mark him creating space for the lads inside. Could be a good shout. Has been very effective in that role but maybe the role was easier for him coming into a game once defences were lapsing a bit and there were tired legs around the middle. Just a theory!
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Post by colinsworth1 on Aug 22, 2019 14:23:15 GMT
We have to produce some offensive ball from midfield We get almost none like I said from Adrian snd Jack Barry although I’m sure they are capable we just have no evidence of any over many many games David give us some very good ball especially in first half but normally goes defensive completely in second half . This set up then allow a free pass to Fintan and McAuley to be Rampaging forward with almost Zero defensive responsibility resulting in disaster for our backs . Bottom line we need to get their 8 and 9 running back the other way as much as possible and not give them a free pass all afternoon like we have been doing until lately
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Post by buck02 on Aug 22, 2019 14:49:58 GMT
In the league game this year, Tom Sullivan marked Scully and Morley marked Howard.
Both men are very important players but I wonder will Sullivan and Morley be required to do other man marking jobs on Sunday week (Morley on Kilkenny, Sullivan on O Callaghan). If that is the case I think there may be a case for starting Sherwood wing back on Howard as he could match him for height and physically. Paul Murphy could then pick up Scully. Foley on Mannion. Gavin Crowley on Rock. I would also start White wing forward and essentially man mark McCaffrey but also force him to do some defending.
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Post by oldschool on Aug 22, 2019 14:59:51 GMT
In the league game this year, Tom Sullivan marked Scully and Morley marked Howard. Both men are very important players but I wonder will Sullivan and Morley be required to do other man marking jobs on Sunday week (Morley on Kilkenny, Sullivan on O Callaghan). If that is the case I think there may be a case for starting Sherwood wing back on Howard as he could match him for height and physically. Paul Murphy could then pick up Scully. Foley on Mannion. Gavin Crowley on Rock. I would also start White wing forward and essentially man mark McCaffrey but also force him to do some defending. Agree with this post . Just to add: 1 All depends on how Dublin set up. That's where our management can act 2 When we push up on Dublin kickouts we should really cover all. Watch how Dublin do it. 3 kickouts at both ends will be a big factor in the winning/losing of this game.
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Post by taibhse on Aug 22, 2019 15:12:58 GMT
I think that in our discussions on hear we sometimes put too much emphasis on ‘midfield’ when in fact we should be talking ‘middle third’. Both sides have good inside forwards capable of putting on match-winning scores - if they get the supply
I have noticed that when Cluxton is forced to go long he channels a lot of his stuff through Brian Howard. Howard is big and strong in the air and a v-good player. I would be worried that our smaller half backs would not be capable of competing with him in the air. I would like to see a change in personnel here.
Lesser teams tend to be reviewing the merits of their panel hoping that their lot performs. Successful teams usually have players worthy of inclusion. For the first time in a long time, we fit into the latter category. If it was my call I would hold back Jack Sherwood and Tommy Walsh until the 2nd. Half.
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 22, 2019 15:17:38 GMT
I think that in our discussions on hear we sometimes put too much emphasis on ‘midfield’ when in fact we should be talking ‘middle third’. Both sides have good inside forwards capable of putting on match-winning scores - if they get the supply I have noticed that when Cluxton is forced to go long he channels a lot of his stuff through Brian Howard. Howard is big and strong in the air and a v-good player. I would be worried that our smaller half backs would not be capable of competing with him in the air. I would like to see a change in personnel here. Lesser teams tend to be reviewing the merits of their panel hoping that their lot performs. Successful teams usually have players worthy of inclusion. For the first time in a long time, we fit into the latter category. If it was my call I would hold back Jack Sherwood and Tommy Walsh until the 2nd. Half. Yes would agree with most of this. Was thinking about Howard and perhaps Shane Enright will be given that task. I don’t see which other of our half backs could match him in the air.
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tonydorigo
Full Member
yerra you know yourself shur
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Post by tonydorigo on Aug 22, 2019 16:38:30 GMT
I think that in our discussions on hear we sometimes put too much emphasis on ‘midfield’ when in fact we should be talking ‘middle third’. Both sides have good inside forwards capable of putting on match-winning scores - if they get the supply I have noticed that when Cluxton is forced to go long he channels a lot of his stuff through Brian Howard. Howard is big and strong in the air and a v-good player. I would be worried that our smaller half backs would not be capable of competing with him in the air. I would like to see a change in personnel here. Lesser teams tend to be reviewing the merits of their panel hoping that their lot performs. Successful teams usually have players worthy of inclusion. For the first time in a long time, we fit into the latter category. If it was my call I would hold back Jack Sherwood and Tommy Walsh until the 2nd. Half. Yes would agree with most of this. Was thinking about Howard and perhaps Shane Enright will be given that task. I don’t see which other of our half backs could match him in the air. Enright not exactly brilliant in the air. Sherwood would suit if he starts but Gavin Crowley was my pick for this. I think Enright could be employed closer to goals next week.
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Post by kerrygold on Aug 22, 2019 17:31:10 GMT
The task and challenge facing the Kerry players must be energising for them. I'd say they cant wait to run out on to the sod on Sunday week.
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Post by oldschool on Aug 22, 2019 17:45:24 GMT
Straying a little off this thread. €90 for a ticket in corner of Davin Stand?. ?? Any views. Poor view from Davin.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Aug 22, 2019 17:51:29 GMT
Nice to see the colour out in some towns and villages. The schools lose out with these new early finals. Many primary schools will only be back late next week which doesn't give them much time to enjoy the build up, colour etc. (yes I know it's different for secondary schools, many are back this week, but primary schools are more dispersed and bring a lovely flash of colour all across participating counties). Yes, I’ve noticed quite a bit of colour down here. No kerbstones or sheep painted green and gold though. Not yet anyway!
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Post by royalkerryfan on Aug 22, 2019 18:16:58 GMT
Straying a little off this thread. €90 for a ticket in corner of Davin Stand?. ?? Any views. Poor view from Davin. I'll happily take it and pay more for it too
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Post by oldschool on Aug 22, 2019 18:30:52 GMT
It’s not only the price. The view from there is v. poor.
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Post by john4 on Aug 22, 2019 18:57:04 GMT
Nice to see the colour out in some towns and villages. The schools lose out with these new early finals. Many primary schools will only be back late next week which doesn't give them much time to enjoy the build up, colour etc. (yes I know it's different for secondary schools, many are back this week, but primary schools are more dispersed and bring a lovely flash of colour all across participating counties). Yes, I’ve noticed quite a bit of colour down here. No kerbstones or sheep painted green and gold though. Not yet anyway! What's with the painted sheep? 😁
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peanuts
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,850
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Post by peanuts on Aug 22, 2019 20:40:59 GMT
A good read. Dublin will have worked on all areas of weakness since the league game. One simple point stood out though, Kerry directed all of their own kick outs away from Fenton. So simplistic, yet Mayo in the heat of the onslaught put 3 long kick outs on top of Fenton in the 2nd half (4 in the game in total). Kerry need to find a way to secure kick out possession after Dublin score especially if it's a goal. Interesting bit about Fenton’s scoring prowess in the second half of championship games this year. Could be an argument for starting Spilllane and bringing Barry on early in the second half.
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 22, 2019 20:48:14 GMT
A good read. Dublin will have worked on all areas of weakness since the league game. One simple point stood out though, Kerry directed all of their own kick outs away from Fenton. So simplistic, yet Mayo in the heat of the onslaught put 3 long kick outs on top of Fenton in the 2nd half (4 in the game in total). Kerry need to find a way to secure kick out possession after Dublin score especially if it's a goal. Interesting bit about Fenton’s scoring prowess in the second half of championship games this year. Could be an argument for starting Spilllane and bringing Barry on early in the second half. That’s the most likely scenario. Although it depends on how the game is shaping up. If it’s tight they might hold Barry until the last quarter.
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Post by colinsworth1 on Aug 22, 2019 21:46:01 GMT
Interesting bit about Fenton’s scoring prowess in the second half of championship games this year. Could be an argument for starting Spilllane and bringing Barry on early in the second half. That’s the most likely scenario. Although it depends on how the game is shaping up. If it’s tight they might hold Barry until the last quarter. Nice to be able to bring in a fresh player to close out on a Fintan Mayo had two tired midfielders in second half AIdan O Shea just doesn’t have the running in him for that job And Mattie Ruane seemed to me covering someone else and besides he probably wasn’t fit enough hoping we can do better than that . Downside is we’re sacrificing a player that should be supplying good ball to our forwards in the quest to limit Fintan that’s still a net gain for the Dubs in this scenario . Unless the man marker can play with their head up and give positive contributions too when opportunity arises
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 22, 2019 22:00:27 GMT
Kerryheadred feels Dublin are the best team of all time , even if they are defeated the next day. An interesting claim, extraordinary indeed. When somebody says to me that such and such a player or such and such a team were the greatest of all time I am immediately star struck because I know that very likely I am in the presence of the oldest living person in the whole ,wide world. After recovering my composure I gently dismiss his opinion because at his age the ravages of dementia have set in. What I am trying to say is that when discussing football, particularly aspects which cannot be compared and measured accurately, the phrase "of all time" should be used very rarely, if at all. Wexford and Kerry won four in a row titles way back but I cannot comment on the relative merits of the teams because I never saw them play, neither did Kerryheadred I would imagine. So, I will be charitable and assume he is referring to Dublin of the present era vis a vis Kerry of the golden years. To appreciate that Kerry team in an adult fashion one would need to be aged fifty plus now. I do not know if Kerryheadred had reached the ago of football reason to witness that Kerry team in the flesh. If not, I suggest he should not be making claims he cannot substantiate, hearsay is not admissible. But perhaps ha was of a sufficient age to make a rational assessment of that team and is therefore allowed back into the discourse with the rider that he acknowledges that the phrase "of all time" is usually preserve of bluffers. So to the nub of Kerryheadred's thesis, that this Dublin team is greater than Kerry of the golden years. He may be right and indeed there are a lot of people who would agree with him although most of those people would be prepared to suspend judgement until the outcome of the final is known. If Dublin win that match then those people can at least point to the fact that Dublin achieved five in a row whereas Kerry did not. But Kerrheadred does not need the affirmation of the five in a row to assert Dublin's pre-eminence. I find that a little difficult to accept. I have been following football for sixty years or more and I usually shy away from comparing players and teams from different era. For the most part I find those comparisons odious. It is like comparing chalk and cheese. If you want to compare these Kerry/Dublin teams one would need to be able to play tricks with time and pluck that Kerry team into the present and subject them to the advances made in various disciples that Dublin of the present era enjoy: increased knowledge in medical and diagnostic and physiotherapy fields, increased knowledge in nutrition and dietetics, increased knowledge in optimal coaching/training methods, increased knowledge in rest and recovery, increased knowledge in the field of psychology, increased knowledge in statistical and video analysis etc etc. It is reasonable to assume that Kerry of the golden years would be enhanced considerably if all those aids had been available to them. Conversely, if the present Dublin team could be dragged back to the seventies/eighties and could only avail of the aids of the time how would they fare? If we cannot make these time adjustments then comparison is futile,little more than pub talk. On a final point. If somebody thinks that it is valid to compare these two teams the least they could do is go through the teams, position by position. Compare Charlie Nelligan to Stephen Cluxton, Paidi to Phil McMahon etc and come down on the side of one players with reasons for the selection. That is the least I would expect from some one daring or naïve enough to say one team is superior to the other. Some years ago there was a debate on the relative merits of Muhammad Ali and Rocky Marciano as to was was the greater heavyweight boxer,they being from different era and both having their adherents. They collated every available data in respect of both contenders and fed it into a computer. I am not sure what the outcome was but there was no shortage of controversary in any case. Perhaps some bright, unbiased undergraduate would undertake that exercise in respect of Kerry/Dublin as a subject for an advanced university degree. The results would be intriguing but would be unlikely to settle the debate I suspect. Great post. I did try here a couple of years ago to get a response to player comparisons between the Dublin team(s) of this era (since 2010), and the Kerry teams of, say, 2004-2013/14 (-ish), and 75-86 but nobody was interested. My interest was never about saying this or that team was better, rather to debate about individual players, using all available evidence of performances, including some outstanding club games possibly, and of course factoring in (or out) all the relevant parameters and changes in the way players are prepared etc etc. In effect, the comparisons can only be made by describing the player's ability relative to the game as played in his own era. I think also that comparison could be made to the Tyrone team of the 00s, DUblin of the 70s-80s, and Galway & Down of the 60s. Just one observation vis-a-vis your post, the whole question of prep, conditioning, physicality, tactics, style of play etc was also a prominant discussion regarding the teams of the 70s-80s, and I think also the Down team
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