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Post by Ard Mhacha on Jul 24, 2016 19:57:15 GMT
The tweak I would suggest is to have a number of All Ireland competitions for teams knocked out at the various levels. That would dramatically increase the number of competitive games while maintaining the normally epic provincial finals. It would also allow every team the break-through chance of going all the ways in a given year. Could it also open the door for counties to field B teams? While it could be facilitated within the backdoor system, it could also eliminate the need for it, thereby adding that knock-out edge you get in a proper championship. Much as I hate to say it but the backdoor insulates top tier teams having an off-day in a system that is already stacked heavily against weaker counties. Call them Dermot Earley Cups, etc, maybe 4 in total including Sam. You would have Leitrims playing Carlows and Longfords playing say Westmeaths, and it would also raise the standard gradually while also enabling counties to play well into the perfect long Summer days. And it would reduce Diublin v Longford type senarios. No system will be perfect but I think such a set up would be better in most respects and any teething issues ironed out. You're right. The back door protects the top teams against having an off day. It negates what c'ship football is all about. While provincial finals are great occasions, they have been greatly devalued. I don't like comparing Gaelic to soccer, but a FA cup type draw would be ideal. All teams in the hat, off we go. I recall Man U v Man City 3rd round a few years back. Imagine that in GAA terms - Kerry v Dublin, Croker, 1st round. What a cracker that would be! United beat City, then drew Liverpool in the next round. That's like Kerry slogging it out with the Dubs, and having to head to Castlebar to face Mayo a fortnight later. Bumper crowd, sunny day, winner takes all. What could be better? No waiting around for the annual Munster final for you Kerry lot, let's get the feck to Mayo and shout for the lads! It could the last day out we get this year! Meanwhile, a couple of lesser teams are sailing up the inside lane unnoticed after handy wins against London or Waterford. Nobody has paid any heed, and frig me, suddenly it's Carlow v Leitrim in Croker for an AI semi! One match that really sticks out in recent years in the c'ship was Kerry v Tyrone in Killarney. Not a great game, but the intensity and hype was brilliant. Summers day, mountains overlooking the pitch, full house, that was class. But we just don't see that sort of occasion. That's what the c'ship is missing. Instead, we have to wait until August for a bit of a game. We could have that Killarney match all the time. I'm sure that match sticks out for ye lot (and Dermot, although probably not the result).
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Post by ballynamona on Jul 24, 2016 19:59:59 GMT
Forget it lads, there'll be no change to the status quo in the GAA world. The will isn't there for seismic change to the provincial and political structures within the GAA . Only last week in the media our President came out all told all is well with line dancing hand pass game and the provincial championship structure. "Why kick the ball, in football, when we don't know where the football will go" Lord save us. The Prawn is King, long live the Prawn. The Prawn nourishes the status quo. Even if they insisted on keeping the Provincials, the structure could be tightened up hugely. Ulster as I mentioned before are an obstacle with their one game per weekend policy. I know Kerrygold, that you believe the uneven teams in the Provinces means that the set-up in fundamentally unfair. And I'm not saying you're wrong. But I think that it sometimes necessary to recognise how far you can go. The powers that be seem afraid to take even the smallest steps towards a better structure. I personally don't agree with de-coupling the Provincials from the All-Ireland Championship, as they would then be like the McGrath Cup. The successes of Clare and Tipp possibly make the Sean Kelly/Jim McGuinness idea less appealing, but of course winning a tier 2 comp would guarantee promotion under their policy.
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Post by kerrygold on Jul 24, 2016 20:04:29 GMT
Forget it lads, there'll be no change to the status quo in the GAA world. The will isn't there for seismic change to the provincial and political structures within the GAA . Only last week in the media our President came out all told all is well with line dancing hand pass game and the provincial championship structure. "Why kick the ball, in football, when we don't know where the football will go" Lord save us. The Prawn is King, long live the Prawn. The Prawn nourishes the status quo. Even if they insisted on keeping the Provincials, the structure could be tightened up hugely. Ulster as I mentioned before are an obstacle with their one game per weekend policy. I know Kerrygold, that you believe the uneven teams in the Provinces means that the set-up in fundamentally unfair. And I'm not saying you're wrong. But I think that it sometimes necessary to recognise how far you can go. The powers that be seem afraid to take even the smallest steps towards a better structure. I personally don't agree with de-coupling the Provincials from the All-Ireland Championship, as they would then be like the McGrath Cup. The successes of Clare and Tipp possibly make the Sean Kelly/Jim McGuinness idea less appealing, but of course winning a tier 2 comp would guarantee promotion under their policy. At the very least there should be four regional groupings of eight but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
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Post by ballynamona on Jul 24, 2016 20:08:12 GMT
Even if they insisted on keeping the Provincials, the structure could be tightened up hugely. Ulster as I mentioned before are an obstacle with their one game per weekend policy. I know Kerrygold, that you believe the uneven teams in the Provinces means that the set-up in fundamentally unfair. And I'm not saying you're wrong. But I think that it sometimes necessary to recognise how far you can go. The powers that be seem afraid to take even the smallest steps towards a better structure. I personally don't agree with de-coupling the Provincials from the All-Ireland Championship, as they would then be like the McGrath Cup. The successes of Clare and Tipp possibly make the Sean Kelly/Jim McGuinness idea less appealing, but of course winning a tier 2 comp would guarantee promotion under their policy. At the very least there should be four regional groupings of eight but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Yeah, that is a modest tweak. I think it was said before that teams could be rotated, i.e. 3 Leinster teams rotated out per year, 2 to Munster, 1 to Connacht. 1 Ulster team to Connacht.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Jul 24, 2016 20:08:58 GMT
I personally don't agree with de-coupling the Provincials from the All-Ireland Championship, as they would then be like the McGrath Cup. Hasn't that happened already? It's got to the point where the talk is that teams might be better off having a few games in the qualifiers, to have a launch at Sam, rather than wrecking themselves through a tough provincial campaign.
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Post by kerrygold on Jul 24, 2016 20:13:15 GMT
At the very least there should be four regional groupings of eight but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Yeah, that is a modest tweak. I think it was said before that teams could be rotated, i.e. 3 Leinster teams rotated out per year, 2 to Munster, 1 to Connacht. 1 Ulster team to Connacht. Rotating teams as very reasonably suggested by Eugene McGee's group was also rejected by the status quo not so long ago. I firmly believe nothing will change in the short to medium time frame.
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Post by ballynamona on Jul 24, 2016 20:14:36 GMT
I personally don't agree with de-coupling the Provincials from the All-Ireland Championship, as they would then be like the McGrath Cup. Hasn't that happened already? It's got to the point where the talk is that teams might be better off having a few games in the qualifiers, to have a launch at Sam, rather than wrecking themselves through a tough provincial campaign. Usually when it is said that teams would be better off through the qualifiers it is along the lines that they will find more out by having games every week. Cork in 2010 went through the qualifiers, it did them good.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Jul 24, 2016 20:22:31 GMT
The tweak I would suggest is to have a number of All Ireland competitions for teams knocked out at the various levels. That would dramatically increase the number of competitive games while maintaining the normally epic provincial finals. It would also allow every team the break-through chance of going all the ways in a given year. Could it also open the door for counties to field B teams? While it could be facilitated within the backdoor system, it could also eliminate the need for it, thereby adding that knock-out edge you get in a proper championship. Much as I hate to say it but the backdoor insulates top tier teams having an off-day in a system that is already stacked heavily against weaker counties. Call them Dermot Earley Cups, etc, maybe 4 in total including Sam. You would have Leitrims playing Carlows and Longfords playing say Westmeaths, and it would also raise the standard gradually while also enabling counties to play well into the perfect long Summer days. And it would reduce Diublin v Longford type senarios. No system will be perfect but I think such a set up would be better in most respects and any teething issues ironed out. You're right. The back door protects the top teams against having an off day. It negates what c'ship football is all about. While provincial finals are great occasions, they have been greatly devalued. I don't like comparing Gaelic to soccer, but a FA cup type draw would be ideal. All teams in the hat, off we go. I recall Man U v Man City 3rd round a few years back. Imagine that in GAA terms - Kerry v Dublin, Croker, 1st round. What a cracker that would be! United beat City, then drew Liverpool in the next round. That's like Kerry slogging it out with the Dubs, and having to head to Castlebar to face Mayo a fortnight later. Bumper crowd, sunny day, winner takes all. What could be better? No waiting around for the annual Munster final for you Kerry lot, let's get the feck to Mayo and shout for the lads! It could the last day out we get this year! Meanwhile, a couple of lesser teams are sailing up the inside lane unnoticed after handy wins against London or Waterford. Nobody has paid any heed, and frig me, suddenly it's Carlow v Leitrim in Croker for an AI semi! One match that really sticks out in recent years in the c'ship was Kerry v Tyrone in Killarney. Not a great game, but the intensity and hype was brilliant. Summers day, mountains overlooking the pitch, full house, that was class. But we just don't see that sort of occasion. That's what the c'ship is missing. Instead, we have to wait until August for a bit of a game. We could have that Killarney match all the time. I'm sure that match sticks out for ye lot (and Dermot, although probably not the result). While the potential of the open draw is exciting, the reality is that you would have fewer good games. What I proposed seeded teams each year, so teams of similar quality meet more often. I know the Provincial Finals challenge any system, but as the GAA is 99% about pride of place then they are immovable feasts IMO -soccer would be different there. Another advantage is that it would enable more Ulster Football counties to progress and as would apply to Munster Hurling. The key is that within a few short years we would have say 5 times more competitive games in each year and the standard would rise significantly so you might have say 10 real contenders for Sam in a given year -there has seldom been more than a handful. And on top of that you would have the other AI finals at the various levels. And the power of computing could be used to help out with the fixture list and which would be intriguing as teams of similar caliber would be pitched against each other. Some teams progress through the qualifiers from playing opponents of similar standard, and that would prevail on a much wider scale, right across the board.
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Post by southward on Jul 24, 2016 20:31:18 GMT
Proponents of an All-Ireland open draw are overlooking one major obstacle. How are Dublin going to persuade 31 other counties to concede home advantage?
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 24, 2016 20:42:13 GMT
Jim McGuinness proposal still the best I've heard.
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Post by southward on Jul 24, 2016 22:30:29 GMT
Des stirring it up on TSG. Prompted Spillane to make a ridiculous complaint that Kerry would only have to play 3 games to get to a semi whereas Donegal would have to play 6. No mention that Donegal drew one match and lost another, otherwise they'd only have to play 4. Talk about twisting the facts.
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Post by delorean on Jul 25, 2016 0:23:00 GMT
3 out of 6 is better than 4 out of 9! Well really it's 3 out of 5 (so far) against 4 out of 5, seeing as five is the maximum amount of counties any of the provinces can have in the quarter finals. Even then, it's very much draw dependent, for example Cork drawing Limerick and Derry drawing Cavan in the qualifiers reduces the likelihood further. Jim McGuinness proposal still the best I've heard. I can't recall the exact details but if I remember correctly McGuinness completely ignored the need for reform in the club championships. I think that should be at the very heart of anything that is introduced. The whole thing is in dire need of radical surgery, not tweaks. The much maligned Colm Parkinson did a bit of a follow up to the McGuinness suggestion but he put much more emphasis on the clubs. I think it's the only one I've seen where the clubs were taken into account in a meaningful way, as opposed to some token gestures like moving the All Ireland finals forward a week or two.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Jul 25, 2016 8:08:12 GMT
What is McGuinnesses proposition?
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Post by delorean on Jul 25, 2016 9:10:30 GMT
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Post by veteran on Jul 25, 2016 10:31:04 GMT
There has been a lot,of talk about restructuring the championship, a myriad suggestions. Among them the need for a two , three tier setup. Tomas O'Se and others are constantly peddling that one, anytime a so called weaker team is hammered by a perceived stronger one. Tomas and others were at it again after the Kerry/Tipp game.
A question for,those boys: At the start of the year to which tier would you have allocated Clare and Tipp. Take your time now.
As i repeatedly say: start at the bottom , get good men in charge, concentrate on getting out of your NFL division . After that watch your savings grow.
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Post by wayupnorth on Jul 25, 2016 10:59:54 GMT
There has been a lot,of talk about restructuring the championship, a myriad suggestions. Among them the need for a two , three tier setup. Tomas O'Se and others are constantly peddling that one, anytime a so called weaker team is hammered by a perceived stronger one. Tomas and others were at it again after the Kerry/Tipp game. A question for,those boys: At the start of the year to which tier would you have allocated Clare and Tipp. Take your time now. As i repeatedly say: start at the bottom , get good men in charge, concentrate on getting out of your NFL division . After that watch your savings grow. Nail firmly hit on the head!
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Post by delorean on Jul 25, 2016 11:06:25 GMT
A question for,those boys: At the start of the year to which tier would you have allocated Clare and Tipp. Take your time now. Using the McGuinness proposal, Clare would have reached the top tier by virtue of winning Division 3 of the NFL. Tipp would have been in the second tier as a result of their poor showing in the same division.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 25, 2016 12:21:29 GMT
A question for,those boys: At the start of the year to which tier would you have allocated Clare and Tipp. Take your time now. Using the McGuinness proposal, Clare would have reached the top tier by virtue of winning Division 3 of the NFL. Tipp would have been in the second tier as a result of their poor showing in the same division. But if Tipp beat Kerry they would have qualified. Also if they went on to win the B Championship they would qualify for the AI the next year.
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inchperfect
Senior Member
No longer active member.
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Post by inchperfect on Jul 25, 2016 12:24:24 GMT
3 out of 6 is better than 4 out of 9! Well really it's 3 out of 5 (so far) against 4 out of 5, seeing as five is the maximum amount of counties any of the provinces can have in the quarter finals. Even then, it's very much draw dependent, for example Cork drawing Limerick and Derry drawing Cavan in the qualifiers reduces the likelihood further. It was just banter.
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Post by veteran on Jul 25, 2016 15:21:07 GMT
A question for,those boys: At the start of the year to which tier would you have allocated Clare and Tipp. Take your time now. Using the McGuinness proposal, Clare would have reached the top tier by virtue of winning Division 3 of the NFL. Tipp would have been in the second tier as a result of their poor showing in the same division. Clare hadn't won division three at the start of the year. I must confess that I haven't read the McGuinness proposals because I am sick to gills of retricturimg proposals. Are tier two and three teams allowed to compete for Sam? For instance , would Tipp have been allowed to compete this year? Why don't the proponents of all these proposals spend a term in Tipperary. Here is a county with little tradition in football making a huge impact by, seemingly , starting at underage. To compound the difficulty for football people up there they have made these huge advances in a county where hurling is top dog. Worse than it seems that their achievements have been accomplished in the face of a lot of hostility from the hurling collegiate. Why not make efforts to recreate the Tipp model in other counties rather peddling the notion that every county should have an equal chance of ultimate success by tinkering with structures. Equal chance of outright success does not obtain in any sport. That is the way of the wicked world. However, as is said, give a fish to man and he feeds his family for a day, teach him how to fish and he feeds his family for life , or words to that effect. If you get my drift.
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keane
Fanatical Member
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Post by keane on Jul 25, 2016 15:27:37 GMT
It's possible for every team to win Sam every year under the McGuinness (Sean Kelly really) system.
If you are in the top two divisions you'll more than likely be playing in the last 16 for Sam, and if you're not you can win your province to get to the last 16 for Sam.
It's a good system I think - makes the league more meaningful and creates a secondary competition with some real incentives to take seriously also.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 25, 2016 15:38:30 GMT
Using the McGuinness proposal, Clare would have reached the top tier by virtue of winning Division 3 of the NFL. Tipp would have been in the second tier as a result of their poor showing in the same division. Clare hadn't won division three at the start of the year. I must confess that I haven't read the McGuinness proposals because I am sick to gills of retricturimg proposals. Are tier two and three teams allowed to compete for Sam? For instance , would Tipp have been allowed to compete this year? Why don't the proponents of all these proposals spend a term in Tipperary. Here is a county with little tradition in football making a huge impact by, seemingly , starting at underage. To compound the difficulty for football people up there they have made these huge advances in a county where hurling is top dog. Worse than it seems that their achievements have been accomplished in the face of a lot of hostility from the hurling collegiate. Why not make efforts to recreate the Tipp model in other counties rather peddling the notion that every county should have an equal chance of ultimate success by tinkering with structures. Equal chance of outright success does not obtain in any sport. That is the way of the wicked world. However, as is said, give a fish to man and he feeds his family for a day, teach him how to fish and he feeds his family for life , or words to that effect. If you get my drift. Clare would be in the last 16 of the race for Sam by dint of winning Division 3. This is the beauty of the McG proposal - at the start of the year every team can in theory win the big prize.
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Post by ballynamona on Jul 25, 2016 15:47:53 GMT
It was only 2 or 3 years ago that the then Tipperary manager (name escapes me, but not Evans) was saying they should be in a 2nd tier comp, after they got beaten well by Kerry.
The problem with the Tommy Murphy Cup as was, is that it was a stick to beat the weaker counties with. The lowest point was when Div 4 teams were excluded from the qualifiers.
The crazy thing is that county board delegates at congress are capable of voting in suggestions that will harm their own counties.
I agree, hats off to Tipp for the work they have put in. The main reason I back the restructure proposals is that it would give teams more meaningful games, and balance out the training to game ratio a bit.
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kerryexile
Fanatical Member
Whether you believe that you can, or that you can't, you are right anyway.
Posts: 1,117
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Post by kerryexile on Jul 25, 2016 16:27:06 GMT
Clare hadn't won division three at the start of the year. I must confess that I haven't read the McGuinness proposals because I am sick to gills of retricturimg proposals. Are tier two and three teams allowed to compete for Sam? For instance , would Tipp have been allowed to compete this year? Why don't the proponents of all these proposals spend a term in Tipperary. Here is a county with little tradition in football making a huge impact by, seemingly , starting at underage. To compound the difficulty for football people up there they have made these huge advances in a county where hurling is top dog. Worse than it seems that their achievements have been accomplished in the face of a lot of hostility from the hurling collegiate. Why not make efforts to recreate the Tipp model in other counties rather peddling the notion that every county should have an equal chance of ultimate success by tinkering with structures. Equal chance of outright success does not obtain in any sport. That is the way of the wicked world. However, as is said, give a fish to man and he feeds his family for a day, teach him how to fish and he feeds his family for life , or words to that effect. If you get my drift. Clare would be in the last 16 of the race for Sam by dint of winning Division 3. This is the beauty of the McG proposal - at the start of the year every team can in theory win the big prize.Has this not always been the case???
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Post by delorean on Jul 25, 2016 16:29:07 GMT
Clare hadn't won division three at the start of the year. I must confess that I haven't read the McGuinness proposals because I am sick to gills of retricturimg proposals. Are tier two and three teams allowed to compete for Sam? For instance , would Tipp have been allowed to compete this year? Why don't the proponents of all these proposals spend a term in Tipperary. Here is a county with little tradition in football making a huge impact by, seemingly , starting at underage. To compound the difficulty for football people up there they have made these huge advances in a county where hurling is top dog. Worse than it seems that their achievements have been accomplished in the face of a lot of hostility from the hurling collegiate. Why not make efforts to recreate the Tipp model in other counties rather peddling the notion that every county should have an equal chance of ultimate success by tinkering with structures. Equal chance of outright success does not obtain in any sport. That is the way of the wicked world. However, as is said, give a fish to man and he feeds his family for a day, teach him how to fish and he feeds his family for life , or words to that effect. If you get my drift. I know Clare hadn't won Division 3 at the start of the year, but is that not nitpicking on your part a little bit? It's where they are at the start of the Championship year that's relevant in the context of what's being discussed, not January. Nobody is being allocated first or second tier status willy-nilly anyway, it would be performance based. You said yourself the league is a good starting point for improvement and McGuinness agrees, as league performances are rewarded heavily in his new system. Are you happy with the current format? Your proposal for improving standards around the country is a noble one but, even if it were to happen, I would still say a change of structure is required. There are just too many inconsistencies the way it is, too few games for some teams, too many for others, six day turnarounds v seven week layoffs and generally taking from May to August before you start seeing some really meaningful games. I think the McGuinness proposal is well thought out but my main problems are: -The intercounty season is still too long and it does nothing to address the club schedule, in fact in ensures that it will remain in disarray (Do you have any opinion on this Annascaul? I completely agree that it would improve the Championship itself and a much better suggestion than the Champions League style tournament I've seen elsewhere. I think that would be a downgrade on what we have presently to be honest, and that's saying something). -I think I'd refrain from seeding the Championship last 16 knock-outs also, even though I can see the logic in it. It would really add to the excitement if it was an open draw at this point. You could have some heavyweight clashes, but you'd also have your weaker top tier teams having a decent shout of making a quarter or even a semi final. Going with 1 v 16, 2 v 15, etc. is pretty much guaranteeing a lot of predictable matches
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jul 25, 2016 16:50:32 GMT
Clare would be in the last 16 of the race for Sam by dint of winning Division 3. This is the beauty of the McG proposal - at the start of the year every team can in theory win the big prize.Has this not always been the case??? Correct - I might have said this was the beauty of this proposal vs some of the others - which put teams in the B championship in January.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jul 25, 2016 17:04:18 GMT
Great achievement for Clare & Tipp, of course. Will all of this enthusiasm for change etc be forgotten if they both get beaten by 15 points plus in the Qtrs? The knockout opportunities for teams who are unfancied at the uppermost levels are vital but rely so much on luck (injuries, suspensions, timing/rest) that there will never be consistent outcomes, such as one big surprise team and one fairly surprise team every year.
I still think there's desperate need for a league structure/element in better months, a league that teams will really covet, that will have the necessary status
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Post by kerrygold on Aug 1, 2016 15:05:18 GMT
Breheny will be scraping the eggs off his chin with a shovel if Tipp beat Galway in Croker. Tipp were a breath of fresh air yesterday. I presume this has neutered Breheny's annual recycled toilet role article on the ills of Munster football? Good riddance....................... Clare would have beaten Galway yesterday and drew the short straw.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 1, 2016 20:36:41 GMT
Tipp have proved the championship competition still strong. It's hurling where the real problem is.
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Post by kerrygold on Aug 2, 2016 7:32:30 GMT
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