seamo
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,016
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Post by seamo on Feb 21, 2015 11:19:08 GMT
It wasn't a rant! But it did leave you without a counter argument, so I guess job done...and good night! Just couldn't be arsed responding to the rant But...you did respond! It's alright I get it, your still a little sore from some previous debate which I can't remember but you clearly can. In future I won't quote you and you don't have to quote me, at least until you've left whatever bitterness aside and are capable of engaging in debate! And just for you here's another smiley hahaha
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Post by kerrygold on Feb 21, 2015 11:27:47 GMT
Just couldn't be arsed responding to the rant But...you did respond! It's alright I get it, your still a little sore from some previous debate which I can't remember but you clearly can. In future I won't quote you and you don't have to quote me, at least until you've left whatever bitterness aside and are capable of engaging in debate! And just for you here's another smiley hahaha I have no idea what you are on about, here is a few more for good measure
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Feb 21, 2015 11:51:27 GMT
This is the smiley I want to see!
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Post by Chinatown on Feb 22, 2015 13:14:55 GMT
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Feb 22, 2015 14:04:44 GMT
Mickmack, There is no obvious answer to your question but a lot of smaller factors that may be playing a part. The culture of Senior Club All Irelands is not in the county. Crokes, by their own admission, never seemed to manage the time correctly from winning Munster in late November to the All Ireland semi final in February. They were always under or over cooked. But Kerry are masters at priming a senior team for a September assault. Junior and Intermediate clubs in Kerry are far stronger than the rest of Ireland. The recent exploits in Croker prove this. There is little or no transferring of players from small junior clubs to large senior clubs in Kerry which is commonplace in other counties - especially Dublin. Kilmacud, Brigids, Oliver Plunketts are like the United Nations.
The larger clubs in Kerry are not getting stronger by acquiring players. You could argue if Stacks had 2-3 more strong players from Na Gaeil or Mitchels it may have been enough. The obvious issue of Kerry being the biggest blackspot for unemployment in Ireland for young males. There is nothing keeping them here at all AND they are outside commuting distance to urban centres. The teams you mentioned - Marys, Listowel and Castleisland all have 5-7 key players abroad. The fact that the county team is so strong does not help as club football is Kerry disappears for 5 months of the year and the county championship turns into a 6 week psychotic sprint in October. Not ideal for physical and skill preparation of top footballers. Most teams stop training from June to August apart from a once a week kickaround. I suspect St Brigids and Corofin are in a nice programme at that stage. You could argue that there are now way too many clubs in Kerry relative to the population. How many clubs are there within a 15 mile radius of Caherciveen. How many 18-30 year old makes are in that catchment area. For several years 4 teams in South Kerry have amalgamated to form a minor team yet all field their own senior team. Unsustainable. Apart from all that the biggest factor is that the appetite may not be there to strive for excellance. Winning an Intermediate, getting a couple of Kerry seniors and minors on winning teams sounds much more achievable and quite rewarding. Interesting debate Does that prove anything much as regards success? Out of the 3 examples you gave, only Kilmacud have won the All-I, Brigid's won one L Championship over 10 years ago, and OPER haven't won the Dub Champ in a long time, if ever. Kilmacud have only won the All-I once since the days of transfers becoming more common, even then it wasn't many transfers, what difference did they really make.
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Post by Mickmack on Feb 22, 2015 20:11:27 GMT
COLM OROURKE
After last week's rant about the dreadful state of football, it was good to see last weekend that rigor mortis has not set in altogether. Of course, it was not county football that lifted the fog, but two absorbing All-Ireland club semi-finals.
The first one on Saturday between St Vincent's and Corofin was one of those helter-skelter games where anything could happen - and did most of the time - while Slaughtneil and Austin Stacks was an old-fashioned humdinger. Now both of these matches had plenty of handpassing, but there was enough of every type of football to keep all neutrals happy.
All-Ireland club championships at every level are the greatest modern development of the GAA. In Croke Park on Saturday evening, players from Ardfert in Kerry and St Croan's of Roscommon played out an intermediate final, while John Mitchels of Liverpool and Brosna of Kerry contested the junior final. The great dream of every young player to play in Croke Park is within reach and even if Ireland were playing France in rugby across town, there were no divided loyalties in Croke Park.
Not only are these games a once-in a-lifetime experience for players, they are also a marvellous opportunity for every person in the community to share, in a very close way, the thrill of having your own in that special arena. They also bring people home from abroad and give a huge lift in both a social and economic way to these clubs. These sort of clubs have a positive approach, they believe in self-help and a team on the pitch, whether it is senior, intermediate or junior, reflecting the energy and commitment of the huge army of foot soldiers who oil the wheels of all local life, in rural Ireland especially.
In contrast to this, St Vincent's as a big-city club have done and continue to do what a city club must do: they have embedded themselves as part of the community as much as any club anywhere through selfless voluntary work for local youth.
St Vincent's gave up their title, but it was a mighty struggle. Now Diarmuid Connolly can get his break, a break he did not want, but he has continued on the treadmill for a couple of years without being able to step off.
Of course, Dublin will want him now and the club league will be starting for Vincent's immediately, but if Connolly is to rediscover his imperious form, he would be better off away from the game for at least a month. No professional in any sport would be expected to play their sport continuously for as long as he has. It had started to show, too, the body and mind were willing, but the spark of genius has just gone for the moment. Every player needs to get away and smell the roses for a while or the engine just goes stale.
To beat Corofin, Vincent's would have needed a few Connollys. Corofin are a very good side. They came with a tall reputation and all of it was deserved. Their hunger to succeed was admirable and they played a lovely brand of football. At times, they held on to the ball with a series of handpasses, but unlike many of the recent county games, it was usually going forward and was followed by intelligent kicks into space.
Up front for Corofin, Michael Lundy was terrific and he made a lot of hard yards for his team. He took scores, created scores and was always showing for the ball. With his pace, he must be a bit of a nightmare to mark as he drifts into open country to look for passes. No back likes to mark a small forward who is brave and keeps running. Indeed, it was a tribute to the fitness levels of both teams as they kept up a very fast pace from start to finish. Corofin also had Martin Farragher and Ian Burke in the inside line to take scores. Another example of the old football maxim - keep your best scorers close to the goal.
The other semi-final on Sunday was just as intensely fought and was possibly a tougher physical battle. Most neutrals would probably have liked to see a draw and more action as this was good, honest, hard football.
There was no fairytale ending for Kieran Donaghy, either, and it would have meant as much to him, and probably even more, to have ran out in Croke Park with his club than any of his All-Irelands with Kerry.
But the man above does not listen to prayers involving football matches and it is easier to count the stars in the sky than get to Croke Park on St Patrick's Day. It just shows what great clubs the likes of Crossmaglen and Nemo Rangers are as they dined in Croke Park on so many of these big days. Ordinary clubs would give anything for one.
St Patrick's Day will be a huge one for Slaughtneil manager Mickey Moran. He has coached, trained and mentored a thousand teams from children to veterans and does so with the same enthusiasm and honesty as any man ever has.
The Slaughtneil players were generous in their praise of Moran after last Sunday - and rightly so; he coached Derry along with Eamon Coleman to win an All-Ireland and now he is within touching distance of a remarkable double. I had experience of working with Mickey when we were involved with the international rules team and his training sessions always kept players thinking. Drills were always new and added to players' enjoyment.
Slaughtneil also have plenty of quality and Patsy Bradley showed that a good county man should always turn up and inspire his clubmates. He led by example, but he had plenty of support from a variety of Bradleys and Barry McGuigan. No battle will be too hard for these boys.
Of course, the debate on the club final is about moving away from St Patrick's Day. If it was finished before Christmas, it would mean a definite break for club players. Yet there is something special about Paddy's Day and I am quite sure that every club player would gladly train on Christmas Day, New Year's Day and every other in that holiday time just to get a chance to march behind a band in Croke Park on March 17. Thankfully, these clubs also play football.
Sunday Indo Sport
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Post by donegalman on Feb 22, 2015 21:38:34 GMT
I didnt realize that mickey moran was in charge of slaughtneil. If that is the case, I really hope they win on St patricks day. He has had bad luck in the past, being part of a mayo team who were twice beaten finalists, and of course with Donegal in the early 2000's. He was well liked when he was with us, and got the bones of a decent team together.
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Aodhan
Senior Member
Posts: 794
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Post by Aodhan on Feb 22, 2015 22:41:28 GMT
It is my belief that by allowing divisional teams in the senior county championship the progress of our clubs in the All Ireland series has been curtailed. As players and supporters of divisional teams interest is lukewarm at best. Only occasionally do those teams put in the effort necessary, this is not acceptable. Even when the effort is made the passion of the parish is missing. This takes away from the never say die attitude, the fever pitch interest and of course the atmosphere. With small clubs like Caltra and Corofin winning it all and Slaughtneil sixty minutes away most every clubs in Kerry can afford to dream. By having an only club championship in the long run clubs will only get better as there is so much more to strive for. Heart, pride in the jersey and hunger are ingredients that are very hard to overcome and have slain many a greater foe. A divisional side no matter how much they want it could never come close in this regard.
The system as it currently stands has it's advantages but I feel that the cons far outweigh the pros. It is debatable and there is no solid proof that this is the reason we have won so many inter county All Irelands. More evidence can be found as to why a Kerry club has not won a senior club All Ireland since 1996. If we had divisional teams in both intermediate and junior I assure you those club All Ireland titles would be as rare as teeth in a hen.
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Post by kerrygold on Feb 23, 2015 0:36:53 GMT
It would be difficult to envisage the Kerry senior championship without the district teams at this stage.
What other counties have district teams competing in their championships?
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Feb 23, 2015 7:03:44 GMT
I'm very confused on one level as to what is going on here- we want to change a system that has made us the most successful footballing county because we think that it might give us a better chance of winning the odd club all ireland- fairly ridiculous. The great plan for going this is remove the divisional sides and put in much weaker clubs-completely ridiculous.
Aye I'd swap Derrys, galways, corks fairly mediocre number of senior all ireland titles for a slightly better chance of stacks or crokes winning the club all ireland! Get a f*ckin grip!
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Post by Mickmack on Feb 23, 2015 8:38:15 GMT
I'm very confused on one level as to what is going on here- we want to change a system that has made us the most successful footballing county because we think that it might give us a better chance of winning the odd club all ireland- fairly ridiculous. The great plan for going this is remove the divisional sides and put in much weaker clubs-completely ridiculous. Aye I'd swap Derrys, galways, corks fairly mediocre number of senior all ireland tities for a slightly better chance of stacks or crokes winning the club all ireland! Get a f*ckin grip! Could you quote the post where that point was made. I cant recall anyone saying that. This debate kicked off by someone saying that strong divisional teams were needed to help a club win the all Ireland but no one could point to any evidence that this is true. Its an entirely different point to say that the divisional system helps Kerry win all irelands.... that's an entirely different point and a valid one in my view, for a number of reasons.
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seamus
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,741
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Post by seamus on Feb 23, 2015 9:53:52 GMT
Mickmack, There is no obvious answer to your question but a lot of smaller factors that may be playing a part. The culture of Senior Club All Irelands is not in the county. Crokes, by their own admission, never seemed to manage the time correctly from winning Munster in late November to the All Ireland semi final in February. They were always under or over cooked. But Kerry are masters at priming a senior team for a September assault. Junior and Intermediate clubs in Kerry are far stronger than the rest of Ireland. The recent exploits in Croker prove this. There is little or no transferring of players from small junior clubs to large senior clubs in Kerry which is commonplace in other counties - especially Dublin. Kilmacud, Brigids, Oliver Plunketts are like the United Nations.
The larger clubs in Kerry are not getting stronger by acquiring players. You could argue if Stacks had 2-3 more strong players from Na Gaeil or Mitchels it may have been enough. The obvious issue of Kerry being the biggest blackspot for unemployment in Ireland for young males. There is nothing keeping them here at all AND they are outside commuting distance to urban centres. The teams you mentioned - Marys, Listowel and Castleisland all have 5-7 key players abroad. The fact that the county team is so strong does not help as club football is Kerry disappears for 5 months of the year and the county championship turns into a 6 week psychotic sprint in October. Not ideal for physical and skill preparation of top footballers. Most teams stop training from June to August apart from a once a week kickaround. I suspect St Brigids and Corofin are in a nice programme at that stage. You could argue that there are now way too many clubs in Kerry relative to the population. How many clubs are there within a 15 mile radius of Caherciveen. How many 18-30 year old makes are in that catchment area. For several years 4 teams in South Kerry have amalgamated to form a minor team yet all field their own senior team. Unsustainable. Apart from all that the biggest factor is that the appetite may not be there to strive for excellance. Winning an Intermediate, getting a couple of Kerry seniors and minors on winning teams sounds much more achievable and quite rewarding. Interesting debate Does that prove anything much as regards success? Out of the 3 examples you gave, only Kilmacud have won the All-I, Brigid's won one L Championship over 10 years ago, and OPER haven't won the Dub Champ in a long time, if ever. Kilmacud have only won the All-I once since the days of transfers becoming more common, even then it wasn't many transfers, what difference did they really make. The point is that the teams in the Dublin championship as a whole gain strength in squad depth through 'acquisition' of players from smaller clubs and other counties. This rarely, if ever, happens in Kerry which means that the overall squad depth and quality is not at the same level. Would i be correct in saying there is 20-30 inter county standard players from other counties playing club football in Dublin at any given time?
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Post by buck02 on Feb 23, 2015 10:20:31 GMT
I'm very confused on one level as to what is going on here- we want to change a system that has made us the most successful footballing county because we think that it might give us a better chance of winning the odd club all ireland- fairly ridiculous. The great plan for going this is remove the divisional sides and put in much weaker clubs-completely ridiculous. Aye I'd swap Derrys, galways, corks fairly mediocre number of senior all ireland tities for a slightly better chance of stacks or crokes winning the club all ireland! Get a f*ckin grip! Could you quote the post where that point was made. I cant recall anyone saying that. This debate kicked off by someone saying that strong divisional teams were needed to help a club win the all Ireland but no one could point to any evidence that this is true. Its an entirely different point to say that the divisional system helps Kerry win all irelands.... that's an entirely different point and a valid one in my view, for a number of reasons. The problem with your evidence Mickmack is that you base it solely on results of games (or evidence as you may describe it!) as opposed to actually seeing the overall quality of the county championship which is very evidently going the wrong way to those of us that actually watch club football in the county. I don't think that the point is that strong divisional teams are needed for a Kerry club to win the all Ireland on St Patricks Day, the point is that strong divisional teams will improve the overall quality of the county championship which I think is what most people want. One way of achieving this can be done by limiting the amount of club teams in it and by not automatically allowing the winners of the Intermediate into the Senior County championship. The other way is to generate more interest in the Divisional teams but given the carrot of the Junior and Intermediate All Ireland club, this will be much more difficult to achieve.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Feb 23, 2015 10:38:45 GMT
I'm very confused on one level as to what is going on here- we want to change a system that has made us the most successful footballing county because we think that it might give us a better chance of winning the odd club all ireland- fairly ridiculous. The great plan for going this is remove the divisional sides and put in much weaker clubs-completely ridiculous. Aye I'd swap Derrys, galways, corks fairly mediocre number of senior all ireland tities for a slightly better chance of stacks or crokes winning the club all ireland! Get a f*ckin grip! Could you quote the post where that point was made. I cant recall anyone saying that. This debate kicked off by someone saying that strong divisional teams were needed to help a club win the all Ireland but no one could point to any evidence that this is true. Its an entirely different point to say that the divisional system helps Kerry win all irelands.... that's an entirely different point and a valid one in my view, for a number of reasons. Mick- look no further than this page (Aodhan), other than that you can do the reading yourself. More work needs to go into the divisional sides and maybe more resources but fundamentally they will suffer in times like these- times where rural clubs are suffering. By default most divisional side are made up of smaller rural clubs and if guys are stretched to turn out for their club due to the fact that they live in cork or dublin then it just wont be an option to play for their divisional side. This could be helped by undertaking some initiatives- outside the county training camps funded by the county board would be one. I would be completely against scraping the divisional sides anyway
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Feb 23, 2015 10:42:05 GMT
Seamus, I don't know the figures but I would guess there must be. And yes I'm sure they do strengthen the depth. On the other hand there are draw-backs as regards local lads getting less chance but maybe it can be absorbed, who knows.
The Dublin champ is very hard to win, very few teams have defended it and not more than back-to-back since possibly the 80s or 70s. That means that you could argue teams are either very battle-hardened or worn out. They rarely get a chance to defend an All-I or go one better having lost one (Ballymun)
That said clearly three teams over the past few years (and Vincents twice) have been winners or very close. But I feel the main reason has been all three have more than one outstanding players who also play with the county team. Balllymun had five at one stage, Vincents currently four. Kilmacud had three I think. Connolly virtually won the final on his own last year
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Post by kerrygold on Feb 23, 2015 11:36:44 GMT
Seamus, I don't know the figures but I would guess there must be. And yes I'm sure they do strengthen the depth. On the other hand there are draw-backs as regards local lads getting less chance but maybe it can be absorbed, who knows. The Dublin champ is very hard to win, very few teams have defended it and not more than back-to-back since possibly the 80s or 70s. That means that you could argue teams are either very battle-hardened or worn out. They rarely get a chance to defend an All-I or go one better having lost one (Ballymun) That said clearly three teams over the past few years (and Vincents twice) have been winners or very close. But I feel the main reason has been all three have more than one outstanding players who also play with the county team. Balllymun had five at one stage, Vincents currently four. Kilmacud had three I think. Connolly virtually won the final on his own last year The Fennel transfer to Vincents was another high profile case.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Feb 23, 2015 13:43:02 GMT
It was. At least they made it hard for him!
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Post by Mickmack on Feb 23, 2015 21:03:55 GMT
Buck02 on 20/2/2015 Mickmack - I think the point about stronger divisional teams is that the club teams would then have to up their game for the Senior County Championship and not sleepwalk their way to Kerry and Munster titles like Crokes for example have done in the past number of years.
Buck02 on 23/2/2015 I don't think that the point is that strong divisional teams are needed for a Kerry club to win the all Ireland on St Patricks Day, the point is that strong divisional teams will improve the overall quality of the county championship which I think is what most people want.
I think that we have finally got to the nub of the issue with your most recent post there Buck02. The quality of the county championship would be higher with stronger divisional teams. I agree with you.
That's not the clubs concern though. And with the junior All Ireland, the Intermediate All Ireland, the minor All Ireland, Sam Maguire and the Hogan Cup in the Kingdom, its hard to argue that things are broken.
And Kerry representatives in the senior club championship are inching closer every year notwithstanding the fact that the divisional teams are weaker.
Anyway, ye are probably sick of me on this thread so I'll leave it at that.
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Post by kerrygold on Feb 23, 2015 21:56:29 GMT
One doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to observe that (a) Kerry clubs are generally not good enough to win the All-Ireland club championship, (b) there are a lot of poor district and club teams playing in the senior county championship and (c) overall the standard of the championship is poor and seems to be declining year on year.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Feb 24, 2015 9:09:51 GMT
One doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to observe that (a) Kerry clubs are generally not good enough to win the All-Ireland club championship, (b) there are a lot of poor district and club teams playing in the senior county championship and (c) overall the standard of the championship is poor and seems to be declining year on year. One doesnt need to be extremely patronising to observe that (a) we have discussed and agreed on this (b) we have discussed and agreed on this, and (c) we have discussed and agreed on this. We know that the standard is dropping but a lot of that is done to external factors that will require some fundamental changes from the county board and what is probably needed is some incentive for players to play or at least some help in facilitating them playing. Training camps funded by the county board in different counties would help- I read somewhere before that Roscommon send development coaches to the universities where they have a large number of players. I was previously thinking about a strange suggestion that will probably get shot down but here it goes anyway- when deciding home advantage for Inter/Junior or Novice matches- the county board could look at results over the previous 2/3 years between the divisional teams- i.e. if shannon rangers beat st brendans and beale draw na gael the following year then Beale would be guaranteed home advantage It is a bit crazy and probably not workable but some incentive has to come in at the micro club level.
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Post by kerrygold on Feb 24, 2015 10:05:14 GMT
One doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to observe that (a) Kerry clubs are generally not good enough to win the All-Ireland club championship, (b) there are a lot of poor district and club teams playing in the senior county championship and (c) overall the standard of the championship is poor and seems to be declining year on year. One doesnt need to be extremely patronising to observe that (a) we have discussed and agreed on this (b) we have discussed and agreed on this, and (c) we have discussed and agreed on this. We know that the standard is dropping but a lot of that is done to external factors that will require some fundamental changes from the county board and what is probably needed is some incentive for players to play or at least some help in facilitating them playing. Training camps funded by the county board in different counties would help- I read somewhere before that Roscommon send development coaches to the universities where they have a large number of players. I was previously thinking about a strange suggestion that will probably get shot down but here it goes anyway- when deciding home advantage for Inter/Junior or Novice matches- the county board could look at results over the previous 2/3 years between the divisional teams- i.e. if shannon rangers beat st brendans and beale draw na gael the following year then Beale would be guaranteed home advantage It is a bit crazy and probably not workable but some incentive has to come in at the micro club level. I'm surprised you have an appreciation for condescension seeing as you referred to gym monkeys that cant kick a ball in another county.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Feb 24, 2015 10:21:58 GMT
One doesnt need to be extremely patronising to observe that (a) we have discussed and agreed on this (b) we have discussed and agreed on this, and (c) we have discussed and agreed on this. We know that the standard is dropping but a lot of that is done to external factors that will require some fundamental changes from the county board and what is probably needed is some incentive for players to play or at least some help in facilitating them playing. Training camps funded by the county board in different counties would help- I read somewhere before that Roscommon send development coaches to the universities where they have a large number of players. I was previously thinking about a strange suggestion that will probably get shot down but here it goes anyway- when deciding home advantage for Inter/Junior or Novice matches- the county board could look at results over the previous 2/3 years between the divisional teams- i.e. if shannon rangers beat st brendans and beale draw na gael the following year then Beale would be guaranteed home advantage It is a bit crazy and probably not workable but some incentive has to come in at the micro club level. I'm surprised you have an appreciation for condescension seeing as you referred to gym monkeys that cant kick a ball in another county. No need to be so petty-you rate Kildare as a football team and I dont. Have you anything to add to the discussion on this thread?
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Post by givehimaball on Feb 25, 2015 18:43:03 GMT
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seamus
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,741
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Post by seamus on Feb 26, 2015 8:48:24 GMT
PADDY has been reading our debate. Presume the cheque is in the post....
PADDY HEANEY: Kingdom’s unique structure keeps them well ahead of all pretenders 17 Thursday, February 26, 2015
By Paddy Heaney When outfoxed by superior coaching methods or tactics, Kerry have been swift to absorb lessons and make the necessary changes, writes Paddy Heaney.
This is a bold claim, but I am going to make it anyway. In today’s column, I am going to reveal the secret of Kerry football.
With 37 All-Ireland titles, Kerry is the most successful county in the land. Take Dublin (24 titles) out of the equation, and no other county else even comes near them.
Why are Kerry so good? Unlike some other counties, they don’t have ultra-successful senior club teams. Kerry’s record in the All-Ireland Club senior competition certainly doesn’t compare with their achievements at county level. The same is true of their county U21 and minor teams. And yet Kerry senior football teams continue to succeed.
How do they do it? Apart from an all-consuming football culture which has been developed over the past century, Kerry’s domination is based on two key factors.
1) They play more football than anyone else
2) They develop more county footballers from intermediate and junior teams.
Yes, it’s not rocket science. But before leaping to any conclusions, consider some of the evidence. Following all the debate that has been stoked up about the amount of weight training being conducted by Gaelic footballers, it’s worth highlighting the thoughts of Dan John.
As one of the most revered strength and conditioning trainers in America, it’s no surprise John believes almost all sportsmen and athletes will reap huge rewards from resistance based training.
However, in his book Intervention, John makes an interesting observation. He writes: “People often comment on the way I train athletes – my throwers throw. For the record, my jumpers jump and my sprinters sprint.”
John adheres to what he calls his ‘80:20 Rule’. If he’s coaching a thrower, 80% of their training will involve throwing. Only 20% of their time will be allocated to strength training.
The logic is simple. To perfect a particular skill, a person needs to practise that particular skill. So, the more often someone plays competitive football, the better they will become at playing competitive football.
And in Kerry, they play a serious amount of competitive football. In Ulster, most counties operate a county championship and a county league. A senior club player could typically expect about 14 to 16 League games per year, and a minimum of one championship game.
In Kerry, they have a county championship (which involves divisional teams) and a county league. They have also have a club championship (exclusively for clubs), a district league and a district championship. At the bare minimum, the average club footballer in Kerry will play 21 games per year. And that’s an absolute minimum.
It’s worth noting all the aforementioned competitions are replicated at U21 level. An U21 player, who is also on his club’s senior team will play at least 30 matches. And, let’s not forget the player who is on a strong team. If a player was on a club team that reached the club and county championship finals, he would also be playing more than 30 matches per year.
Not only does the Kerryman play more often, the structure of the county’s championship allows players from weaker clubs to compete on an equal footing. As the only county in Ireland that operates a divisional system, is it any coincidence Kerry enjoys such incredible success at developing players from their intermediate, junior and novice clubs?
Cast your eyes over this veritable Hall of Fame: Mick O’Connell (Valentia), Jack O’Shea (St Mary’s Cahirciveen), Maurice Fitzgerald (St Mary’s Cahirciveen), Declan O’Sullivan (Dromid Pearses), Mick O’Dwyer (Waterville), and John Egan (Sneem). Everyone of those legends came from the lower divisions of Kerry football.
However, the divisional system enabled all those men to play for South Kerry, a consortium of St Mary’s Cahirciveen, Renard, St Michael’s/Foilmore, Skellig Rangers, Valentia, Derrynane, Dromid Pearses, Waterville and Sneem.
Before entering a county squad, the experience of playing for South Kerry informs talented players from junior clubs that they have no reason to feel inferior. Contrast that scenario with the experience faced by the junior footballer from an Ulster club who is called for a trial game with the county squad.
The Kerry team which won last year’s All-Ireland title provides further proof the structure of the county championship promotes the development of players from unheralded clubs. Six players from the starting team came from Rathmore, Renard, Duagh, Kenmare and Cromane.
Kenmare (Stephen O’Brien) and Cromane (Donnchadh Walsh) are novice clubs which play below junior level. All but two of Donegal’s starting line-up came from Division One clubs. The exceptions were Frank McGlynn (Glenfin) and Darach O’Connor (Buncrana).
Dr Crokes, Laune Rangers, Austin Stacks, and Kerins O’Rahilly’s might grab all the headlines, but it’s the intermediate and junior clubs which provide the bedrock of Kerry’s success.
Again, the evidence is staring us in the face. On the weekend when Austin Stacks failed to reach the St Patrick’s Day showpiece in Croke Park, Ardfert and Brosna secured the All-Ireland Intermediate and Junior titles.
Since the Intermediate and Junior All-Ireland competitions were started in 2004, Kerry clubs have enjoyed the most success. Ardfert (2007 and 2015), Milltown-Castlemaine and St Michael’s Foilmore have all won the All-Ireland Intermediate competition. Kerry clubs have won eight of the last 10 Munster Intermediate club championships.
The success of Kerry’s clubs is even more pronounced in the junior grade. Finuge (2005), Ardfert (2006), Skellig Rangers (2009), Castlegregory (2010) and Brosna (2015) have all won All-Ireland titles. And Kerry’s junior clubs have won nine of the last 10 Munster Championships.
With a total of 73 clubs, Kerry has less resources than Cork and Dublin.
With regard to Ulster, it’s best to let the figures speak for themselves. (see panel)
And yet, Kerry are often accused of being arrogant. But nothing could be further from the truth. When outfoxed by superior coaching methods or tactics, Kerry have been swift to absorb lessons and make the necessary changes.
In contrast, no-one copies Kerry. With 37 All-Ireland titles, they have a policy of playing more games than anyone else. And to accommodate their packed fixtures list they have a totally unique structure. Kerry insist on learning from others. Meanwhile, everyone else refuses to learn from Kerry. Who is being arrogant?
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kerryexile
Fanatical Member
Whether you believe that you can, or that you can't, you are right anyway.
Posts: 1,123
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Post by kerryexile on Feb 26, 2015 14:15:15 GMT
PADDY has been reading our debate. Presume the cheque is in the post.... PADDY HEANEY: Kingdom’s unique structure keeps them well ahead of all pretenders The above is very accurate. There has been a huge number of players down through the years that made it from small clubs. It has happened so often that it is correct to say that these players bring something special to any Kerry team. Because they have talent and come from areas of small population, they have to carry the local team from an early age - win the kick out, be in the square under the dropping ball, cover for a weak wing forward and wing back at the same time. They develop into players of character and intelligence. The magic happens when you put a bunch of these fellas together in the Kerry jersey. Players like Liam O'Flaherty (Ballydonoghue), Tommy Doyle (Annascaul), Ambrose O'Donovan (Gneeveguilla), Éamonn Fitzmaurice (Finuge), Donnchadh Walsh (Cromane) – the list goes on and on. The opposite is true of some players from the bigger town teams. Some players who appear to have talent become used to being supplied with the ball or doing a very clearly defined job. They then struggle at county level where work rate, ability to read situations, and ability to adapt is required. It would probably be unfair to name any player here but these players tend to get lots of games in the league but fade annually when it comes to the Championship. We don’t have “loaning out” in our game but I think there are a number of players with potential who would benefit greatly from a loan out to smaller club especially a North Kerry club for a season.
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Post by inforthebreaks on Feb 26, 2015 16:52:00 GMT
PADDY has been reading our debate. Presume the cheque is in the post.... PADDY HEANEY: Kingdom’s unique structure keeps them well ahead of all pretenders 17 Again, the evidence is staring us in the face. On the weekend when Austin Stacks failed to reach the St Patrick’s Day showpiece in Croke Park, Ardfert and Brosna secured the All-Ireland Intermediate and Junior titles. Since the Intermediate and Junior All-Ireland competitions were started in 2004, Kerry clubs have enjoyed the most success. Ardfert (2007 and 2015), Milltown-Castlemaine and St Michael’s Foilmore have all won the All-Ireland Intermediate competition. Kerry clubs have won eight of the last 10 Munster Intermediate club championships. The success of Kerry’s clubs is even more pronounced in the junior grade. Finuge (2005), Ardfert (2006), Skellig Rangers (2009), Castlegregory (2010) and Brosna (2015) have all won All-Ireland titles. And Kerry’s junior clubs have won nine of the last 10 Munster Championships. 17 The men of caherciveen will not be happy with the marys being omitted from this list.
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Post by An Ciarraíoch Taistealaíoch on Feb 26, 2015 21:11:24 GMT
PADDY has been reading our debate. Presume the cheque is in the post.... Kenmare (Stephen O’Brien) ... are novice clubs which play below junior level.
Given that they were in the All Ireland Junior final a few years back (2013??)I don't think my neighbours will be happy either.
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Post by kerrygold on Feb 26, 2015 21:36:27 GMT
The research is lazy, the sentiment so so, but lacking the spirituality that makes the Kingdom rock, Paddy. The Cats are very strictly club only also in their winter wonderland of the small ball and the clash of the ash in the small rural parishes dotted around their county.
No district team could solely on it's own create the flowing of the juices that flow when O'Dywer, O'Connell, Egan, O'Driscoll, O'Shea, Lynch, Fitzgerald, O'Sullivan, Sheehan and Young are making footballing poetry on the green canvases in Iveragh, beyond and in the cathedral by the canal.
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Post by givehimaball on Feb 26, 2015 21:47:31 GMT
The Kerry team which won last year’s All-Ireland title provides further proof the structure of the county championship promotes the development of players from unheralded clubs. Six players from the starting team came from Rathmore, Renard, Duagh, Kenmare and Cromane. Don't think the Rathmore folk will be too pleased with this; someone should tell HEaney about them bearing the Crokes last year in the county championship.
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dano
Senior Member
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Post by dano on Feb 27, 2015 0:17:03 GMT
Very true Kerrygold. Paddy would be singing a different tune altogether if Donegal had won last year. We'd have to hear about the lack of underage success, the poor county championship, the inability to beat Northern teams etc. etc. The truth is that none of them, be it Heany, Hayes, Brolly Magee or any of them that critique Kerry football, have a clue what creates the magic that you speak of.
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