Joxer
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Post by Joxer on Aug 31, 2007 8:02:24 GMT
As you say falveyb2k, Whelan was open and looking for a pass . Having said that, I guess Cluxton was looking for the 'killer' ball into the Dublin half -forward line etc. If it was a rehearsed move, some one didn't explain it properly. Either way, the killer pass wasn't really necessary at that point. Dublin needed to keep doing the things they were doing as they had come from 6pts down to 1pt and there was time left. Cluxton is a good goalkeeper and his one mistake didn't cost Dublin the game if you look at the 70+ minutes but it came at a critical time when it could be argued, the momentum was with Dublin. We'll never know if it would have turned out different if it hadn't happened but you can say that about a lot of individual events during the match. For me, I prefer to see Goalkeepers keeping it simple and just doing the simple things well. I think Jack is probably right in his article and if he is, then thats a huge criticism of Cluxton. For all the criticism he gets on here, Ciaran Whelan is the heartbeat of their team and a leader of men. Ignoring him in favour of some not obvious 'killer' pass is worrying I would have thought...key moment, key error? who knows for certain. Seems to me like Cluxton decided he needed to be the hero...you're a hero enough in goal Stephen but glad you did it really.
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Post by scoobydo on Aug 31, 2007 8:22:39 GMT
Fair enough, but what other options did he have? Look at it again, there's not one player that was free enough to make a pass that wouldnt be an interception risk, and nobody was making moves I agree with you in a sense - it's obvious no one made a move for him but also it was an extremely bad risk to take coming so far from your line I watched it again, Ciaran Whelan made a run for the ball, it would have been a handy hand pass for a Junior B player, Cluxton ignored it.
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Post by luxrebel on Aug 31, 2007 8:53:34 GMT
I think it will be interesting to read JOC in the next two weeks. He will obviously try to be very cute and not give Billy any ammunition. He won't want to do a Liam Hayes. The articles might suffer for it.
Didn't Quirke do the same as Cluxton the previous week but he found a Cork player with his pass and set up a score if I remember correctly.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 31, 2007 12:10:15 GMT
I think it will be interesting to read JOC in the next two weeks. He will obviously try to be very cute and not give Billy any ammunition. He won't want to do a Liam Hayes. The articles might suffer for it. Didn't Quirke do the same as Cluxton the previous week but he found a Cork player with his pass and set up a score if I remember correctly. I didnt see the bit with Whelan showing, but obviously he did, so therefore it appears a very bad decision by Cluxton. Then again, all he had to do was clear Donaghy with the ball, but he miss-hit it badly, that was still the real mistake. He panicked. Anyway, it still wasnt what decided the game, Kerry's brilliant scores at the end were what decided it, and Cossie's miss
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Piggy
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Post by Piggy on Aug 31, 2007 14:12:11 GMT
cosgrave must have some kind of curse on him in croke park or somthing.
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Post by scoobydo on Sept 5, 2007 10:06:36 GMT
Anyone got todays offerings from Jack. Pretty please
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Post by Owenabue on Sept 5, 2007 10:13:59 GMT
Cody the inspiration for driven champions
Jack O'Connor's Column: Experience and ruthlessness are two hallmarks of Kilkenny and their current manager
I was up in Dicksboro in Kilkenny last week doing the Des Cahill programme and the locals were a little worried about the lack of hype leading up to the All-Ireland final. No such worries in Limerick. The problem is hype doesn't win you matches. That's the lesson a lot of Limerick players will have learned on Sunday.
It's hardly a coincidence that their two best players on Sunday, Ollie Moran and Mark Foley, had previous experience of the big day in 1996, Mark as a player, Ollie as a panellist. For a lot of the other Limerick players Sunday was an event as much as a game. All-Ireland final days are tough for players and for managers. A big part of the manager's job isn't just getting it right but appearing to be getting it right.
As a manager you need to keep the mask on till the final whistle. Calm but not casual. Focused but not edgy. In control. You pass silent massages to the players by the way you speak and act. It has to be an occasion that you have to enjoy as a team. So as a manager you have to give the impression you are enjoying it.
It is a fantastic opportunity. Playing in a stadium in front of a fantastic crowd. This is something to be looked forward to. You tell them these things and try to look as if you believe them too. I remember my first All-Ireland as a senior manager in 2004. It was all new. All the time wondering, am I doing the right thing here? Am I sending out the right vibes? Brian Cody is long past those worries.
The day is about players. For instance, a manager has to remember that his speech isn't the be-all and end-all. You keep it very simple. Routine. It's too late for new ideas. The players are out on the pitch for such a long time before throw-in. They forget anything you said. What is important is they get together for a couple of minutes before the throw-in for a last few comforting words between themselves. The few words players say themselves are the most important.
On big days players love routine. It eases their nerves. I like to see a player a small bit edgy. Not too relaxed or pretending that it's just another day. Edgy but not overcome. That's a sign that the adrenaline is pumping. Once they get out on the pitch and get a feel of the ball they are ready to go.
Limerick were in a tough position when it came to separating the game from the occasion. Brian Cody was always going to exploit that. You learn from each experience and you try to bring that on the next year.
On big days in Croke Park I found I used to sit beside Johnny Culloty as much as I could. Johnny was like a human Prozac, very calming. Other than that, you stick to routine. No sideshows. Little things. Don't go out at half-time in the minor game and talk to anybody in the crowd. Go out for 10 minutes, stick to the people you are familiar with. Get back to the sanctuary of the dressingroom. The strength comes from the players and the mentors.
Brian Cody leads by example. No prima-donna stuff, just driven and focused. He is so grounded it would be hard for any of his players to even consider getting above themselves.
He planned Sunday perfectly. They say never give a sucker an even break and never give an underdog a good start. Kilkenny made sure Limerick never got a chance to let their self-belief snowball into something dangerous. Kilkenny matched Limerick's hunger and beat them for skill. They just went for Limerick's jugular.
Watching that start that Limerick endured reminded me of a phrase Bernard Dunne used recently. Caught cold. They didn't hit the ground running. Limerick's management will have learned a lot.
Kilkenny's start was the result of hard experience and ruthless planning. For Kilkenny, this was just another game in the sense that they could divorce the game from the occasion in a way that Limerick couldn't. The good start was crucial.
For us in Kerry, Pat Flanagan liked to try new things and he sought a lot of advice on warm-ups from people, like Liam Hennessy from the IRFU. Warming up was basically trial and error for a while for us. We tried different routines and we'd keep adjusting and evaluating based on how well we started the game. In the second half of last season we started using a conditioned game between the players as part of the warm-up. It worked. A simple way of getting to match pace is to play a small match.
After the first ten minutes Kilkenny could play within themselves. Limerick will say they matched Kilkenny from there on. That is missing the point. The credit they can take is that they didn't capitulate.
Aside from experience Brian Cody's calm ruthlessness was the difference. It wasn't by accident that Seamus Hickey was put under so much pressure in the first ten minutes. If you see a rookie corner back out there in Croke Park you want to ask some serious questions of him early on and get an experienced player to ask those questions. That is what attention to detail is all about.
Hickey recovered quite well but it was a huge task to be on a speed merchant like Eddie Brennan, a guy looking to make a point on the All-Ireland final stage.
Cody keeps such ferocious competition for places going that even the few elite players on the side do the donkey work. When Henry Shefflin was on the pitch on Sunday he put himself about in a way that few players would have the appetite for.
It said a lot about Shefflin. No job is too small for the big fellas and no job is too big for the small fellas. That's the secret of a team.
Cody doesn't do the high-fives stuff. You watch a Kilkenny player coming off having been substituted and Cody doesn't rush over with a big hug to soften the blow. On Sunday it was only when the last point from Eddie Brennan went over with a couple of minutes to go that he even allowed a smile to break out. They are a relentless, driven team. That comes from the management down.
Cody took Willie O'Dwyer off in the first half. He'd dropped Richie Power and the quiet message to O'Dwyer there would have been that he would have to produce a storming first quarter to keep Power on the bench. As it happened, Willie got taken off and Limerick had to endure the sight of Power coming in straining at the leash. It was a brilliant use of his own resources by Cody. No room for sentiment.
There is a ruthless streak there. It is no harm for players to be half afraid of the manager. A little bit of fear is always a good thing. After Charlie Carter and a couple of other high-profile farewells every hurler in Kilkenny knows that Brian Cody is capable of dropping anyone. That is some weapon to have in the pocket. The quality of the panel is a great help in keeping law and order.
Kilkenny have a team of great players but they wouldn't be a great team without Cody. Some managers have short shelf lives. Cody has no expiration date other than the one he sets for himself.
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Post by kerrygold on Sept 5, 2007 10:47:04 GMT
Brian Cody is starting to look like the Allex Ferguson of gaelic games,they share many traits,ruthlessness and longievity being amongst them.
i wonder will they start mfr.
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Post by scoobydo on Sept 5, 2007 10:52:07 GMT
Cheers Owenabue
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Post by Owenabue on Sept 5, 2007 11:06:22 GMT
It is no bother Scoobydo. I thought ye'd have no interest in it when it wasn't about the big match in less than two weeks!
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Post by luxrebel on Sept 5, 2007 11:06:32 GMT
Any mention of Cork & Kerry in the agus rud eile bit?
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Post by scoobydo on Sept 5, 2007 11:09:44 GMT
It is no bother Scoobydo. I thought ye'd have no interest in it when it wasn't about the big match in less than two weeks! It will be interesting to see what he has to say once the GAA season is out of the way.
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Joxer
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Post by Joxer on Sept 5, 2007 11:18:46 GMT
still no mfr I'd say Kerrygold but we have a rookie corner back too, just like Limerick....
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Sept 5, 2007 11:59:07 GMT
still no mfr I'd say Kerrygold but we have a rookie corner back too, just like Limerick.... Well he's been involved in 2 firestorm games in Croker. Surely that will stand to him. Plus, nothing, not even an All-Ireland final, will match the kind of atmosphere that was in Croker for the Dublin game. When the odds were against him he delivered. His reward is a place on the first 15. He deserves it.
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Post by kerrygold on Sept 5, 2007 12:53:44 GMT
Any mention of Cork & Kerry in the agus rud eile bit? no,just more hurling
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Post by austinstacksabu on Sept 5, 2007 14:19:54 GMT
Pat O'Shea should take alot out of that article......next week Jack has to focus on who's going to win etc. This week, he's able to give a few words of advice to rookie managers!!
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Piggy
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Post by Piggy on Sept 6, 2007 8:47:09 GMT
yeah but they will probably have a rookie corner forward in Goulding starting.cant put reidy marking one of their experienced players.jacks articles are unreal,easy to see how he succeeded as a manager.good stuff owenabue.
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Johnnyb
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Post by Johnnyb on Sept 12, 2007 7:45:29 GMT
Kerry have headstart in the battle for minds
All-Ireland SFC Final Jack O'Connor's Column: Cork have huge incentive but Kerry hold most of the aces
Say what you like about Billy Morgan, he has an ability to learn and to change. Billy spent last year complaining about Kerry being cynical. He hasn't mentioned it at all this year. I think Billy realised all he was doing was firing up the Kerry dressingroom.
It served no useful purpose. By the time the All-Ireland semi-final came around we had got our act together and managed to turn the tables on Cork. Billy had helped motivate us.
This year, the roles are somewhat reversed with Cork coming through the back door. They have made incremental progress in the last three years and are close now. They have a little of the advantage Kerry had going into last year's final too.
Back then, the hullabaloo over the Dublin-versus-Mayo semi-final allowed us to go about our business quietly. This year, Cork's impressive win over Meath in the semi-final was overshadowed by the game between Kerry and Dublin. Cork have also had a week extra to get themselves tuned in.
The final will be won in the head as much as on the grass. It's about pressure. Pressure is the difference between walking across a plank of wood when it's lying on the ground and walking across the same plank when it's 250 feet in the air.
Billy Morgan has played a good game in keeping that plank as close to the ground as possible by keeping expectations low.
Of all current managers, Billy is the best at playing the underdog. His sense of "us against the world" is a key part of the way Cork play football.
In Cork the footballers primarily see themselves as second-class citizens in relation to the hurlers. They have had very little support down through the years. They turn that around and tell themselves they aren't playing for supporters, but are playing for themselves. Cork use that to their advantage.
We used a little of the siege mentality thing last year when we felt our own supporters let us down a little in Páirc Uí Chaoimh. It made us a tighter unit. Generally, though, Kerry teams don't have to operate like that.
What height the plank is at when they set foot on it shouldn't affect Kerry teams too much. Wearing the green and gold jersey makes you favourites to win just about any match you line out for. Kerry players grow up with that expectation.
Cork have certain advantages, but Kerry are in a good position too. There is nothing more reassuring for a management than seeing your team tested in a tight match and coming through. To compensate for the loss of Mike McCarthy and Séamus Moynihan, new players have bedded in well and other young players have become leaders.
That's the reward of success. When a young player comes on to a team he sees himself as being apprenticed to the senior players. A certain amount of success and exposure to the big stage gives him the confidence to think of himself as a leader.
A relatively young player like Declan O'Sullivan is in his fourth final in a row this Sunday. The Gooch and Marc Ó Sé are in their fifth. Kieran Donaghy is footballer of the year and in his second in a row. They have the confidence of those around them.
Management have to make the space for players to develop as leaders. All these young players have great brains for football. They have a developed sense of the game and how it should be played. It would be foolish if you didn't use them in team meetings and didn't talk to them privately for feedback. That is crucial.
You involve players in tactics and strategy. The benefits are huge. If players are involved in devising the game plan they buy into it quicker. They often know as much about the game as the manager does; they are out there; they see the stress points and feel them; they know the dynamics. All those guys have a great brain for the game and are clever footballers.
It shows on the field. Kerry won games this year through simple economy. They have been under the proverbial cosh, but they have been economical and clever, pulling games out of the fire by thinking their way through. Playing Donaghy out the field against Dublin was an example.
That freed the Gooch, who came into his own after 20 minutes and in many ways ran the game after that.
Meanwhile, Donaghy had a big influence outfield. Kerry have a lot of options in that area and that will be a huge difference in pressure situations.
Pressure has such a bearing at this level. To take an example on the Cork side, I think Michael Cussen will be played as he was against Meath. Billy Morgan has discovered Cussen can't really be used as a target man. Cork have always played that running and passing game and getting players to switch their mindset is difficult. Under pressure players resort to what they do naturally.
Kerry have traditionally been a kicking team so Donaghy was an easy sell as a tactic. Cork have trouble with the idea of the big full forward.
I imagine Billy will move Cussen in and out depending on how the game is going. Apart from one 15-minute patch against Kerry, Cussen hasn't been that effective in there, and Billy will have considered all the nights in training since then that Tom O'Sullivan has spent marking Kieran Donaghy.
It's likely that there will be a pile of big men around midfield. If both Cussen and Donaghy come out around that area it could look like feeding time in Jurassic Park with so many big bodies fighting for the scraps. Pierce O'Neill is also a midfielder and McMahon is a big man.
That's five big men Cork can send into the breach. There won't be an awful lot of catching going on. It will be a busy afternoon for the Kerry half-forward line.
Kerry will line out as they did the last day. Billy Morgan has decisions to make, starting with James Masters. If the rugby World Cup has shown us anything it is that if players have been out of action for a long time they won't be up to the pace. I don't see how James Masters can be up to match pace for Sunday.
It isn't always healthy to have one player taking a huge amount of responsibility for doing the scoring. Other players subconsciously shirk their own responsibility.
The last day Cork found their forwards could lift it. They have options. It's a tough one for Billy though. Masters is a Nemo man and a good player.
Anthony Lynch, to be fair to a great player, isn't the loss to Cork that he would have been a few years ago. He isn't required to hold the Cork defence together anymore.
The loss is his experience; he is one of only three Cork players who have been to an All-Ireland final. Cork have enough players to compensate. I imagine they will put John Miskella back and bring in a wing forward.
Pat O'Shea, it has to be said, has done a great job for Kerry. Taking over a successful team is harder in some ways than taking over a losing team - a unique pressure. The big problem in trying to win two in a row has always been appetite though. Managers and players get to know each other and take short-cuts.
New management is always gung-ho and everybody ups his game.
The first year I was manager I remember I would have done absolutely anything to win. I have no doubt Pat has been the same this year.
That has worked out in Kerry's favour and the team have benefited from their last two close games. In contrast, Cork versus Meath was over early. On that basis, Kerry look better-equipped to hold out in a tight finish and reaffirm their credentials as one of the great teams.
Agus rud eile . . . .
The final gives us a chance to open up a debate about the modern game.
Is there such a difference between Southern football and Northern football? The business of teams from the same province playing each other in All-Ireland finals is fairly new. The widely held view is that football down south is more free-flowing, with greater emphasis on attack.
Defence gets a lot more attention in the North, where teams like to counter-attack at pace. The 2003 final between Tyrone and Armagh and the 2005 semi-final between the same teams were tight and rugged. That doesn't mean they were bad matches.
The 2005 semi-final was a fascinating game, which Tyrone stole at the death. The intensity was unbelievable because there was no space for forwards to operate.
Sunday's game should be more open, with both sides having the option to kick long to a big target man.
There is a tendency in Kerry and Cork to play attacking football - the idea of getting swarms of players behind the ball doesn't come naturally. There will be so many big men in midfield on Sunday you know already that's where attrition will be highest. It will come down to the hunger and desire to compete at the breakdown. If Kerry win their fair share in there, they should have the class up front to see them through.
Either way, our friends from the North will be watching it all with a critical eye.
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Post by scoobydo on Sept 12, 2007 8:15:20 GMT
Good man johnny, quick off the mark this morning
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Johnnyb
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Post by Johnnyb on Sept 12, 2007 8:34:53 GMT
No rest for the wicked this week scoobydo!
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Post by scoobydo on Sept 12, 2007 10:12:12 GMT
Time waits for no man or woman
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Post by lostinmayo on Sept 12, 2007 11:07:17 GMT
i must say jack o' connor is making a bit of a name for himself as a journalist, excellent articles always well written, that book of his has done him the power of good... ecellent read apparently, haven't read myself yet, no time, i'll get there
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 12, 2007 12:29:15 GMT
to me Jack, Colm o Rourke and Kieran Shannon left the rest far behind.........
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Post by Owenabue on Sept 12, 2007 13:06:56 GMT
Wouldn't agree with you there. Think he goes on too much about when he was in charge of Kerry.
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 12, 2007 13:30:28 GMT
we all draw on our experiences in life
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Post by twohands on Sept 12, 2007 16:18:00 GMT
Thank God Billy has Jack to learn from anyway. ;D
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KevinT
Senior Member
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Post by KevinT on Sept 12, 2007 16:30:22 GMT
Did Billy tell you to write that line ? ;D
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Post by luxrebel on Sept 13, 2007 12:19:26 GMT
Who has whinged more - Connor or Billy?
I think Billy 3 times in past three years - none this year - twice last year and once the year before.
Jack constantly goes on and on and on about Billy whinging. So much that for an outsider, he is whinging more than Billy.
By the way, many of the regular posters on here agree that Kerry are a relatively cycnical team - just have a look at the Dave Hannigan Column thread......
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falveyb2k
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"The way this man played today, if there was a flood he'd walk on water. Jack O Shea"
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Post by falveyb2k on Sept 13, 2007 20:29:12 GMT
You're not half clutching at straws are you?
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Post by islandexile on Sept 19, 2007 12:59:22 GMT
Can somebody post this week's article? Thanks
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