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Post by nicoshea on Aug 6, 2011 19:36:50 GMT
Well.. How wrong was I and so many others....
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Aug 6, 2011 19:39:12 GMT
That may well have been Dublin's All Ireland final against Tyrone. They won't get it that easy against Donegal.
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Post by fisticups on Aug 7, 2011 7:11:50 GMT
Surprised how anaemic Tyrone were. The high octance intensity and support play was gone. Shocked they didn't drop a man in front of their full back line.
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Post by glengael on Aug 7, 2011 11:15:57 GMT
Donegal will put up a good battle but Dublin have the "marquee" forwards to win. Discuss.
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animal
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Post by animal on Aug 7, 2011 12:20:54 GMT
It will be an intriguing contest - as would any match involving Donegal. The Dubs won't get the same amount of space in the semi. Diarmuid Connelly won't have another day like yesterday. Having said that I expect Dublin to have too much all over the field. Their ability to kick pass accurately into the forwards will help them counteract the smothering Donegal defence.
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Post by ansúilleabhánach on Aug 7, 2011 14:52:18 GMT
It will be an intriguing contest - as would any match involving Donegal. The Dubs won't get the same amount of space in the semi. Diarmuid Connelly won't have another day like yesterday. Having said that I expect Dublin to have too much all over the field. Their ability to kick pass accurately into the forwards will help them counteract the smothering Donegal defence. You can say that again. I fully expect him to kick a bucketful of wides, miss two penalties and get sent off. That may be a bit hyperbolic, but my jury's still out on his big match temperament. He had so much time and space yesterday.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 7, 2011 16:45:51 GMT
Jury still very much out indeed, one swallow doesn't make a summer, who knows what might have happened if Dermo's first point had gone the other side after hitting the upright? The lad seems to believe he has to have a great game from the start or else he loses confidence and goes in on himself. He needs to learn to work his way into games, to weather the storms, the slings and arrows. I think though that people should aknowledge that whilst he got a rather generous Tyrone backs performance yesterday, both affording him more space and resulting in him getting great support and service, he is also good at making space, finding time.
Donegal: I don't want to think too much about it yet, I want to just enjoy the hurling games, the minor matches, and Kerry-Mayo. What I will say is that I get tired of reading the lazy analysis of teams that ignores alot of factors. It's well known that Ulster teams especially in the recent eras often have had to battle their way out of the province wiht as much pragmatism as flowing football, and regarding the Kildare game it was in many ways like an Ulster clash. That conveniently masks the fact that (like Armagh and Tyrone in the last decade) once out of the domestic struggle, the teams are capable of producing as good football as most or any, the quality is there. In the meantime they have learned what it takes to win tough, often rugged games. That stands to a team, invaluable. Another factor for some teams is finding a way to make a breakthrough when it seems that somehow they can't go that extra bit to winning things. Armagh and Tyrone did it in 2002 & 2003 to some extent. Dublin did it in 1995. On another level we see it with weaker counties in the provincial championships and so on. In other words Donegal will be most accurately judged by their performance in a more open game where less is expected of them. They will mark tighter than Tyrone, they will run harder, they will get the most out of their forward talent. Dublin may be on abit of a downer after yesterday, and of course with vastly raised expectations and the recent history of coming up just short in All-I semi-finals, there's no way they will get a game like last night's. Kerry & Mayo too will be licking their lips thinking about how they will help the hype build and pick holes in the facade, should they end up facing us. At the moment I slightly fancy Mayo to progress, and I wouldn't bet against them then finishing the job, they would still be made underdogs if it's us they would end up facing. Perfect scenario for them, and what a way to do it, beat Kerry, Cork & Dublin. Like Eamon Sweeney says in today's Indo, alot of smart-arsed commentators and ditch experts give no credit to Mayo for having reached 4 All-I finals in the last 14 years. That's four more than us! I'll be back on this in a couple of weeks to look at player match-ups, tactics etc.
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Post by greenandgold on Aug 7, 2011 19:03:32 GMT
I reckon Donegal will relish being underdogs against Dublin and I think McGuiness will be able to make sure they don't get awed by the occasion. August ..raining more than we'd like bit it's great to be looking fwd to 2 semi's that are not as easy to predict as soom would have us believe.
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Aug 8, 2011 11:24:49 GMT
I can't see anyone but Dublin win this. Yes, Donegal are very good at defending but they lack the fire power. Dublin will definitely match them in the physical department and I expect the Brogans to shoot from further out. Donegal crowd the ball and it's nigh impossible to get in front of the goal but their wings are relatively exposed. Tyrone's blanket defense crumbled under the high diagonal ball as the Dubs just had all 3 in the full forward line roaming and the blanket defense doesn't cope with that. If you want 3 or 4 players swarming a forward each time he gets the ball it means the other forwards are not marked. Donegal do a similar thing and I think if the 2 Brogans and Connolly roam around all the time on the wings they can pick up scores from there. It was interesting to see in the analysis that most of the time Dublin forwards outnumbered defenders while attacking but whenever Tyrone attacked most of the Dublin team were suddenly behind the ball and defending. Fantastic work rate!
Donegal don't have the same level of highly skilled, great footballers and adopted the ultra-defensive style to disguise that. True, they do that brilliantly but I don't think it's enough to win an All-Ireland.
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Aug 10, 2011 11:48:35 GMT
Donegal are set up to beat a side like Dublin...they have the pace and power to cope and will attempt to suffocate Dublin, they also have a very underrated midfield....it will be interesting
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Aug 14, 2011 11:18:25 GMT
Half of Down and Armagh already had Donegal flags out last night when I was travelling back up to Belfast. Kinda makes me sad people in Munster don't show the same support for their province.
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Post by stuckintipp on Aug 14, 2011 12:06:51 GMT
Half of Down and Armagh already had Donegal flags out last night when I was travelling back up to Belfast. Kinda makes me sad people in Munster don't show the same support for their province. Mistaken you are. they are Kerry flags
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Aug 14, 2011 12:20:10 GMT
Half of Down and Armagh already had Donegal flags out last night when I was travelling back up to Belfast. Kinda makes me sad people in Munster don't show the same support for their province. Mistaken you are. they are Kerry flags Wish they were but they clearly had the hand and the cross in them. People here hate Kerry though. In a way they are worse than Cork in their anyone but Kerry mentality.
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Post by stuckintipp on Aug 14, 2011 12:42:06 GMT
People here hate Kerry though. In a way they are worse than Cork in their anyone but Kerry mentality. My wife's family are from Leitrim, was at a wedding 2 years ago and had to endure endless grips from people from Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Longford and other counties about how they hate Kerry, how dirty we are, how the o'ses, mahony and Galvin are thugs, how munster is an easy province to qualify from. The weird thing was how they creamed themselves taking about Tyrone, as if tyrone represented all that part of the country.
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Aug 14, 2011 14:18:00 GMT
People here hate Kerry though. In a way they are worse than Cork in their anyone but Kerry mentality. My wife's family are from Leitrim, was at a wedding 2 years ago and had to endure endless grips from people from Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Longford and other counties about how they hate Kerry, how dirty we are, how the o'ses, mahony and Galvin are thugs, how munster is an easy province to qualify from. The weird thing was how they creamed themselves taking about Tyrone, as if tyrone represented all that part of the country. Aye, the same here. People in Antrim going on about how Kerry got lucky despite them being beaten by more than that goal. All Ulster counties always go on about how hard Ulster is to win (despite every decade having only 1 or 2 teams dominating the province) and how they all hate each other and thus making it even harder to win it but when any Ulster team play any team from any other province they all act like it's all the same county. Donegal flags on the Armagh and on the Down side of Newry and Donegal flags everywhere in Belfast. I'd almost prefer the Ulster banner by now. Bigots the lot of them. I so wish that some day Munster will get together and do the same to them and go on for about a few years about how they hate all Ulster teams and back any Munster team against any other team from any other province. See how they'd like that. I hope the Dubs hammer the living daylight out of the negative play of Donegal so we can hammer the Dubs in the final. Or if Donegal reach the final that Kerry or Mayo defeat Donegal by so many points that in about a 1000 years time there are still stories about Donegal's tactics were a disgrace and how real football prevailed.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 14, 2011 16:27:10 GMT
I think we will see Donegal play more football this time, they have kept it very tight so far to get the momentum, and to counterract Kildare especially. I think if the game remains tight for any length if time Donegal will come out to play. If Dublin go out to attack them and not play the cagey game it should make for a good match too.
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dart
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Post by dart on Aug 14, 2011 16:34:13 GMT
I so wish that some day Munster will get together and do the same to them and go on for about a few years about how they hate all Ulster teams and back any Munster team against any other team from any other province. See how they'd like that. Well I for one hope we never sink to their levels. Hate has no place in the world, sport or otherwise. Cork are our rivals but I don't hate them, they're more of an annoyance or minor irritation.
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Aug 14, 2011 16:58:37 GMT
I so wish that some day Munster will get together and do the same to them and go on for about a few years about how they hate all Ulster teams and back any Munster team against any other team from any other province. See how they'd like that. Well I for one hope we never sink to their levels. Hate has no place in the world, sport or otherwise. Cork are our rivals but I don't hate them, they're more of an annoyance or minor irritation. True, very true. I must admit that in last year's final I fully shouted for Cork and also in the quarter versus Mayo this year. After all, Cork get the best out of Kerry as we do out of them. Both counties raise their game when we play each other and in my opinion Munster football is the most attractive to watch. None of the excessive handpassing but catch, kick and flowing football is still alive in Munster. (as in Leinster and Connacht)
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Aug 14, 2011 16:59:30 GMT
I think we will see Donegal play more football this time, they have kept it very tight so far to get the momentum, and to counterract Kildare especially. I think if the game remains tight for any length if time Donegal will come out to play. If Dublin go out to attack them and not play the cagey game it should make for a good match too. I think they will just have to come out and play. Dublin have a physicality Donegal have not seen in any of their games yet so they can't deploy the same tactics.
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Post by romanl292 on Aug 19, 2011 0:04:27 GMT
if you yhink about it donegal only cover between the 21 and the 65 yard lines with their "blanket defense" system, so if dublins wing forwards and win backs kick the long ball into connolly and brogan it will allow the two lads space and if they get quality ball then dublin will win because murphy is donegals only go to man dublin 1-18 donegal 2-08
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seamus
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Post by seamus on Aug 19, 2011 8:39:33 GMT
I think we will see Donegal play more football this time, they have kept it very tight so far to get the momentum, and to counterract Kildare especially. I think if the game remains tight for any length if time Donegal will come out to play. If Dublin go out to attack them and not play the cagey game it should make for a good match too. Could not disagree with you more. Donegal will keep it tighter than ever, try to turn the game into a dogfight, get the crowd bellyaching and turning up the heat on the Dubs to perform and try to play counterattack football pinching a few scores here and there. They will be quite happy to be 2 or 3 points down with 10 minutes to go. The only way Donegal will come out and play is if the Dubs blitz them in the first quarter and they need to go out and chase down the game. Donegal will not win an open game and they know it.
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Post by Gaa Lover on Aug 19, 2011 8:53:10 GMT
Really cant wait for this game I think it will be a cracker. I agree that Donegal will have to play more football in this game because Dublin can match them for physicality and fitness.
They will still be very defensive but I dont think they can expect their defense to win it for them. Lets be honest the quality of forward Dublin has is alot more than donegal have faced so far. It will be interesting to see how the dub forwards handle the Donegal pressure especially Bernard Brogan who I think needs to learn to lay it off and not try score everytime he touches the ball. If he is more clever and less selfish Dublin will score more.
It will prob still be a defensive enough game but sometimes it can still be an enjoyable game to watch. It will be all guns blazing by both teams.
Dublin have the better forwards and despite all their choking they have to learn sometime. Donegal will be fearless. McGuinness will have them ready. The positioning of Michael Murphy and his performance will be a big factor in this match. The closer he is to goal the better chance Donegal have.
Verdict: Dublin by one
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Post by Dermot on Aug 19, 2011 10:28:25 GMT
This will be an intriguing game to say the least ... Both defences will have extra defenders permanently in their own 45 as well as runners getting back when an attack breaks down - and they will both tactically foul in the opponents half so those runners can get back.
The Ref could play a big part in this game !!!
Tyrone's tactics were to follow the ball and not have extra men permanently stationed in defence ... Big mistake as we were repeatedly turned over due to nearly all the Dubs being in their defence and then we were caught out by long balls in to their FF line who now had acres of space. It will be a tighter affair on Saturday!!!
Anyway, back to the game - I think one of two things will happen:-
1/ The Dubs will have another sharp shooting day like the last day where everything they kick goes over the bar .. I think they will need this as Donegals defence will allow them no where near the room they had against us, and they will have to attempt a lot of long range points.... I dont think we'll see too many goal chances.
If Dublin play even close to where they played the last day out (best Ive ever seen a Dublin team play) they'll ate Donegal !!
Result - Dublin Win
2/ Donegal's defence offers no space and limited chances to the Dun FF line and BB & DC dont get the ball they need ... I can't see the diagonal ball and perfect passes from the Dub half back line working so well against that Donegal defence. Dublin get frustrated and the heads drop leaving Donegal who have already proved their heads are spot on and reaqdy for the close matches, take advantage and catch Dublin on the hop. M Murphy is some player and I cant wait to see how Dublin handle him or he them !!
Also, can Dublin put in 2 big performances in a row ? ...
Result - Donegal win
I do think the ref could have a big impact though !!
Anyway, thats probably nothing like what will happen but sure ye have to take a punt ! ...
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 19, 2011 22:30:16 GMT
I still haven't formed a clear view of how I think this will go. As Dermot says, I think there are equally possible scenarios, possibly three or even four. In all of this there is the fact that Dublin have come up short by one point, and at most two, in four semi-finals in the last decade. For much of last year's semi I felt they had Cork beaten, but Cork had developed/were developing an ability to dig games out of the fire. That said, I felt that a few things also gave that game to Cork - Dublin didn't have enough in the tank to get the insurance scores when Cork were in their chase. The linesman (same ref as for the Tyrone game this year, and likely to ref the final) gave Cork two very bad decisions, both of which led to scores. That said, it was the mistakes of indiscipline that did for us in the end, and Cork's ability to take their chances. The same thing happened in the league final. What's different this summer? We have a fit Alan Brogan (so far!) in the best form of his life. He wasn't fully fit last year, and also playing a very deep role for the first time ever. He is more advanced this year and fully fit. He missed the league final (because of a very unfair suspension). We have Paul Flynn being much more effective and mature in his play. Similarly (so far!) Diarmuid Connolly. Denis Bastick has steadily become a very effective man around the middle. Barry Cahill's role is better defined. Overall our back lines have a more mature and solid look since the start of the championship. The changes since the league final have really helped.
Does all of this or any of this matter if there's a psychological monkey that undermines everything you can plan for and try to play your way over? The proof as ever is only in the pudding.
So for what it's worth, I see the game going this way:
Donegal look to start at a high tempo and get a few scores, then from that position try to dictate the momentum of the game, which will mean slowing it down, hitting on the break. Dublin may or may not turn up in the right frame of mind and form to match or exceed Donegal's efforts in the first 15-20 mins. If they do at least match them, then they will probably get a lead by the middle of the 2nd half at the latest, but how big a lead is anybody's guess. If they can't get a goal, (and the missed chances the last day could either work for or against the forwards, sometimes it can be the start of a rut) then they would be defending a lead of a few points I guess, at best. That will result in a very serious examination of how they deal with the pressure of closing out a huge game, and of reaching an All-I final. I thought they were addressing that issue in the league, until the final. Some of the issues that lost the league final have been addressed. I feel that at the very least, the game will be there to win for Dublin, one way or another, and that now they have just about enough of all the types of armour needed to deal with any scenario that occurs against Donegal (barring Doneagl suddenly proving to be a team of all the talents and getting a total grip on the game in the 2nd half, which could happen if they get the early initiative, don't fall a few points behind, and if Dublin are leaden/flat on the day) There's so much at stake, and such alot has been invested to getting back to this stage since the collapses in 2008 & 2009 that I think they will come out upsides somehow or other, but that there will be serious drama along the way. I'd really like to see Donegal blossom from the belief they will have got from winning that Kildare match and from all the criticism they have received. I haven't forgotten for one minute 1992, when Mayo and Donegal played out what must be the worst semi-final I ever saw, but in hindsight could be seen as the signs of how much was at stake, especially for Donegal. On a smaller scale, that's what happened in the Donegal-Tyrone and Kildare games this summer. Now Donegal have got their foundatons well and truly under them, it only remains for them to go out and express themselves on top of everything else they know they can do. Dublin had better not underestimate that capacity, how much, who knows, but at the least it should be their best performance of the summer by far. Somebody said that a very open game would suit Dublin - I haven't forgotten 2006, a helter-skelter high-scoring game where we let a 7 point lead in the 2nd half slip, hopefully this team has finally learned how to control and tighten a game, how to fight and dig deep, how to go into the trenches when needed, how to not let it get too open in the last 15 mins. In other words, timing and controlling your effort, the way Cork did to perfection last year.
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KY50
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Post by KY50 on Aug 22, 2011 12:18:54 GMT
Dublin will win whether it is by one point or 5 /6.All depends on the type of game being played out plus conditions.
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Post by ansúilleabhánach on Aug 22, 2011 14:42:56 GMT
Well I for one hope we never sink to their levels. Hate has no place in the world, sport or otherwise. Cork are our rivals but I don't hate them, they're more of an annoyance or minor irritation. True, very true. I must admit that in last year's final I fully shouted for Cork and also in the quarter versus Mayo this year.After all, Cork get the best out of Kerry as we do out of them. Both counties raise their game when we play each other and in my opinion Munster football is the most attractive to watch. None of the excessive handpassing but catch, kick and flowing football is still alive in Munster. (as in Leinster and Connacht) I know it's bit off the point, but with all due respect, speak for yourself. Firstly, re your point about how attractive Munster football is to watch- you could not, at least with a straight face, claim that of the 2 teams contesting last year's final, the foireann Muimhneach caught, kicked and played flowing football, while the foireann Ultach were guilty of "excessive handpassing". That said, I'd like to oppose your first motion. Luimneach, An Clár, Tiobraid Árainn, Port Láirge, I'd shout for until the cows come home, but Corcaigh? Never! (With the sole exception of when they play An Mhí, of course, but I presume we're referring exclusively to counties of the same species.) Don't get me wrong- I'd never begrudge them any of the victories they deserve, I admire their finest footballers (not least na triúr ciotógaí gortaithe) and I'd confess it would have been fierce cold not to feel a bit happy for the likes of Noel O Leary, Graham Canty, Murphy, Miskella etc. at full time in last year's final. However, if you're suggesting the hanging out of blood-and-bandage flags in years where Kerry are knocked out and Di Ribbils soldier on- well sir, I dare say! That's the kind of philosophy that might earn you a trip to that nice Victorian building beside Stáid Mhic Gearailt Seriously though, do you not feel the Tír Chonaill flags being hung out is somewhat laughably pathetic? Not a million miles away from the "true fans" of Munster rugby from -ahem- Mullingar, if you ask me. Maybe they'd find track and field suits them more than GAA. If they can leap on to a bandwagon so far over on the Atlantic, the long jump would be a cakewalk. Petty rivalry is the grist to the mill of Ciarraí-Corcaigh, Gaillimh-Maigh Eo, Áth Cliath-An Mhí, An Dún-Ard Mhacha, Tír Eoghain-Doire, etc., not to mention all their honourable equivalents in the small ball game. It doesn't mean you can't laugh about it before, during and after, whatever the result. There's nothing that can cheer me up better after a poxy Corcaigh victory than some friend of mine, accursed enough to hail from there, trying to rise me about it. But it doesn't mean we have to hold their goddamned hands like those namby-pamby flag-hanging Northern nancies.
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Aug 22, 2011 15:32:48 GMT
True, very true. I must admit that in last year's final I fully shouted for Cork and also in the quarter versus Mayo this year.After all, Cork get the best out of Kerry as we do out of them. Both counties raise their game when we play each other and in my opinion Munster football is the most attractive to watch. None of the excessive handpassing but catch, kick and flowing football is still alive in Munster. (as in Leinster and Connacht) I know it's bit off the point, but with all due respect, speak for yourself. Firstly, re your point about how attractive Munster football is to watch- you could not, at least with a straight face, claim that of the 2 teams contesting last year's final, the foireann Muimhneach caught, kicked and played flowing football, while the foireann Ultach were guilty of "excessive handpassing". That said, I'd like to oppose your first motion. Luimneach, An Clár, Tiobraid Árainn, Port Láirge, I'd shout for until the cows come home, but Corcaigh? Never! (With the sole exception of when they play An Mhí, of course, but I presume we're referring exclusively to counties of the same species.) Don't get me wrong- I'd never begrudge them any of the victories they deserve, I admire their finest footballers (not least na triúr ciotógaí gortaithe) and I'd confess it would have been fierce cold not to feel a bit happy for the likes of Noel O Leary, Graham Canty, Murphy, Miskella etc. at full time in last year's final. However, if you're suggesting the hanging out of blood-and-bandage flags in years where Kerry are knocked out and Di Ribbils soldier on- well sir, I dare say! That's the kind of philosophy that might earn you a trip to that nice Victorian building beside Stáid Mhic Gearailt Seriously though, do you not feel the Tír Chonaill flags being hung out is somewhat laughably pathetic? Not a million miles away from the "true fans" of Munster rugby from -ahem- Mullingar, if you ask me. Maybe they'd find track and field suits them more than GAA. If they can leap on to a bandwagon so far over on the Atlantic, the long jump would be a cakewalk. Petty rivalry is the grist to the mill of Ciarraí-Corcaigh, Gaillimh-Maigh Eo, Áth Cliath-An Mhí, An Dún-Ard Mhacha, Tír Eoghain-Doire, etc., not to mention all their honourable equivalents in the small ball game. It doesn't mean you can't laugh about it before, during and after, whatever the result. There's nothing that can cheer me up better after a poxy Corcaigh victory than some friend of mine, accursed enough to hail from there, trying to rise me about it. But it doesn't mean we have to hold their goddamned hands like those namby-pamby flag-hanging Northern nancies. Quality post. ;D
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 22, 2011 16:25:24 GMT
True, very true. I must admit that in last year's final I fully shouted for Cork and also in the quarter versus Mayo this year.After all, Cork get the best out of Kerry as we do out of them. Both counties raise their game when we play each other and in my opinion Munster football is the most attractive to watch. None of the excessive handpassing but catch, kick and flowing football is still alive in Munster. (as in Leinster and Connacht) ...Luimneach, An Clár, Tiobraid Árainn, Port Láirge, I'd shout for until the cows come home, but Corcaigh? Never!... Don't get me wrong- I'd never begrudge them any of the victories they deserve, I admire their finest footballers (not least na triúr ciotógaí gortaithe) and I'd confess it would have been fierce cold not to feel a bit happy for the likes of Noel O Leary, Graham Canty, Murphy, Miskella etc. at full time in last year's final... I feel exactly the same as you here.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 22, 2011 17:44:53 GMT
Let's start with a comment by who else but everyone's favourite analyst, McStay, last night. "Dublin have learned not to give away so many frees". The same man failed to comment on the fact that in the Tyrone game, Dublin had 36 frees awarded against them, compared to 12 for Tyrone.
Ok regarding where all the evidence is for Dublin's favourites status for this game - it seems to me it's based on one game. Prior to the Tyrone game, many people, probably quite a few of those who subsequently have completely changed their minds, were saying that Dublin were struggling badly and that "all the old failings" were showing up. And that was against Wexford! So one easy win against a team that all are now agreed are at the end of the road has changed everything? As The Man for All Seasons said, "after all the turning of your head, you won't know which way your facing when the storm comes". In other words, I only trust consistent opinions.
More anon...........
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Post by delorean on Aug 23, 2011 11:33:42 GMT
Ok regarding where all the evidence is for Dublin's favourites status for this game - it seems to me it's based on one game To be fair I think it's based on their steady progress since losing to Meath in the Leinster championship last year, not just the Tyrone game. Of course there were going to be negative comments after the Wexford match. The fact is that none of us know what's going to happen, so our opinions are bound to sway here and there based on the most recent evidence. Kerry are probably on their own in that you can just disregard a poor performance and expect them to deliver when it counts, and even with them people jump the gun a bit.
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