seamus
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,741
|
Post by seamus on Sept 28, 2005 9:18:36 GMT
Its funny before the game all our northern friends were talking about how soft kerry have it and how easy a run we have to get to the q-finals compared to them. Now it appears we are at a serious disadvantage because we don't get tough games!! Football is not an exact science and the truth is probably somewhere in between. Tyorne would have preferred a slightly easier run and kerry a slightly harder run.
|
|
tombo
Full Member
Posts: 87
|
Post by tombo on Sept 28, 2005 10:27:22 GMT
Smashing post Jay. Welcome to the forum. Have to agree with everything you said. Still havent got it in me to post a long one like yourself, but u covered all my sentiments, none more so than overdoing the high ball inside after it stopped working after 15mins. But we were beaten by the better team on the day.... Lovely story re that young fella and the Gooch after the game...doesnt surprise me, having met him a few years ago and chatted with us for a while. Also, found it sickening to see people jeer Gooch. Just, unbeleivable. Did it ever happen to Sheehy, O'Connal in their day or is this a modern thing?? Watched it all last night again on Setanta..........depressing..........teh lads deserve a long break now
|
|
tombo
Full Member
Posts: 87
|
Post by tombo on Sept 28, 2005 10:36:24 GMT
One other thing...can anyone shed light on Paul Galvin going for that ball with mulligan which led to their goal? On TV last nigh I spotted Mike Mac making a run 60 yard run forward supporting the play going up the field. Thats account for him. Where was Tom O Sullivan and Marc Se....?
|
|
|
Post by kerryman on Sept 28, 2005 14:12:14 GMT
Good point about Declan O Sullivan being a great man to kick scores back in the school days. Kerry need to re-evuate his purpose. Galvin and Hassett are already noted for their defence cover but having 3 1/2 forwards at it is just wrong.
MFR is not the man to bring on in that type of game either though - remember the Munster final this year when he stood in the box waiting for the ball rather than coming out to win it.
I don't think Kerry are in decline - in reality I think we are still as good as Tyrone and Armagh. We have 12 months to make a few tactical tweaks...especially when it comes to having more than 1 scoring forward. Our forwards are all WELL ABLE to take a score - we just need to get them to do it on the pitch.
|
|
|
Post by ansúilleabhánach on Sept 28, 2005 14:43:24 GMT
I have to ask but did anyone else think that Tomas O Se had one of his poorest games in years? Especially defensively, thus young Mellon's excellent performance. But he kicked so much wayward ball and lost the same quantity again getting caught in possession. I would like to say that I rate him as one as the best players in the land, but even the best have days they just don't click (remember poor Alan Brogan against us last year?) Anyone concur? Sorry if it seems like total heresy
|
|
Joxer
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,365
|
Post by Joxer on Sept 28, 2005 14:53:01 GMT
I wouldn't really agree (and not because it might be heresy) but I do know what you're getting at. It was as tough a game on the halfback line as we've had in a long time and I thought Tomas, in the circumstances, acquited himself well. Yes he got caught in possesion too often but who didn't and the wayward kicking I would blame more on the absence of any reasonably close target to aim at in the forward line.
|
|
seamus
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,741
|
Post by seamus on Sept 28, 2005 16:08:06 GMT
I have to agree i thought he was poor. I watched the game last night and Mellon got the first 2 pts for tyrone and won 5 clean kickouts which tomas did not even contest. In my mind they are crazy stats and even though he made a few bursts up the field (running into tackles) i thought he was quite poor by his high standards. Does'nt mean i think he is a bad player or should retire!!! It wasn't just the older fellas who played poorly last sunday!
|
|
|
Post by kerrygold on Sept 28, 2005 20:49:32 GMT
Wow,there amazing stats all right.I havent had the stomach yet to watch the video,probally will play it a few times over the weekend.Im sure theres many more informative stats there to be taken out.Hopefully after the players and management take a long well deserved chill out they will get around to looking at the stats also.Maybe trying to imitate Tyrone and Armagh is not the way to go,i dont think it worked on Sunday.Having said that if you take peter canavans contribution out of the game we probally could have won.We must remember that tyrone and armagh have their ever squards ever available to them at this moment in time.I believe we are not that far behind them at all.In my opinion the best form of defence is attack.We need a new trick next year and i think that should be all out attack,attack,attack.Lets put them under pressure for a change.
|
|
|
Post by kerrygold on Sept 28, 2005 21:02:36 GMT
sorry,should read,tyrone and armagh have their best ever squards available to them at this moment in time.
|
|
narrie
Full Member
Giggidy Giggidy Goo
Posts: 105
|
Post by narrie on Sept 29, 2005 8:35:03 GMT
Have to admit I was amazed watching Tyrone catching a ball uncontested on the 40. Tomas was just watching him. Stuck to the ground. Sorry for repeating all that has been said already, but if Plan A wasn't working, where was Plan B. Micky Ned was saying that Jack was telling the players to leave the ball low into the corners but they persisited with the high ball into the square. I just don't know.
Extremely dissappointed, again. We are a good team. We could have beaten them. Everybody was too confident going into what we knew would be a tough encounter. There's always next year. That's the good thing about Kerry. There's always next year.
|
|
|
Post by phpearse on Sept 29, 2005 13:01:34 GMT
Watched the video for the first time last night and must admit that it did make good viewing from a Tyrone point of view. During the game you tend not to enjoy the spectacle as you are to tied up in the game, enjoyed the Armagh game more. We actually didnt play as deep as we usually do. The tactic of putting Marc O Se on McGuigan helped us more as it forced McGuigan played further up the field closer to goals and getting 3 points to his credit. Ryan Mellon has been threatening to play a game like that for a while now. He's a great fielder of a ball at club level and had a decent game on one of Kerrys better players. Conor Gormely was my man of the match. His composure on the ball was excellent and he put in a few great shoulders and stopped a few kerry runners coming through the middle. Must admit to not being too confident going into the game. I tend to underestimate our lads on big match days. Possibly because you play against them in club games and you always think far away fields are greener. You met a very well prepared Tyrone team last sunday that played very well. You could have selected 4-5 men from Tyrone as the MOTM. The wasn't one Tyrone lad that played below par and even our subs did a great job - Chris Lawn was outstanding at FB when he came on. The games we had all year really stood to us and we were deserved winners. However had Kerry a few more tougher days in the run up to the final, then .... ?? You guys are still the standard bearers for other counties to follow. An All Ireland win without beating Kerry isn't an All Ireland. Hopefully as Champions we'll show as much dignity and composure as Kerry did during their reign as Champions and that we'll be able to defend our title with the same style and ability as your players in 2006, hopefully going one better. I sense a vey good rivalry building up here and a mutual respect. See yous all in Omagh for the league game.
|
|
seamus
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,741
|
Post by seamus on Sept 29, 2005 13:35:19 GMT
Excellent post phpearse,
Thanks for the kind words and i think you are right. I think Kerry and Tyrone have a mutual respect now and could beat each other on any given day, with tyrone slightly ahead at the moment. The game has cemented this respect and blown away all the 'puke football' and other stories of 2003. Thiocfaidh ar la.
|
|
|
Post by lostinmayo on Sept 29, 2005 16:22:48 GMT
interesting, i think there is mutual respect, but there is also a little more, especially for the Gooch, he was obviously taken out in the first, bit on the hand 2 years ago and taken out of it by Canavan. And all the players know this, so while I'm sure there's respect, there's also a bit of 'hate'
|
|
|
Post by kerrygold on Sept 29, 2005 19:02:28 GMT
Well said phpearse,have to agree with everything u said.Enjoy yere success.I have to admire yere level of intensity,ye have raised the bar a little bit higher now and its up to everone else to catch up.Im not a huge fan of the so called blanket defence but it works for you guys.After defeats in 86 and 95 ye have found a way to win.I dont think were that far behind ye but it all depends on how the cards fall on the day.I was up in omagh last year and enjoyed the experience and am looking forward to going back there again this year.Heres till we lock horns again.
|
|
|
Post by outsider23 on Sept 30, 2005 13:42:27 GMT
Lads,
Gooch is obviously a fantastic player and an absolute joy to watch but is no angel himself. Remember him elbowing the limerick corner back in the head in the munster championship and then pulling him to the ground to get the corner back sent off. Yes he was wronged in the AI final but what comes around goes around..
|
|
Aine
Senior Member
Posts: 740
|
Post by Aine on Sept 30, 2005 14:56:36 GMT
Must say outsider23 that in fairness to Gooch he recieves a lot more than he gives!
|
|
falveyb2k
Fanatical Member
"The way this man played today, if there was a flood he'd walk on water. Jack O Shea"
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by falveyb2k on Sept 30, 2005 17:17:46 GMT
You're obviously blinkered outsider 23. He swung to get loose because he was being dragged but there was no contact and he didn't pull the corner back down to get him sent off, O Riordan managed that himself
|
|
|
Post by Attacking Wing Back on Sept 30, 2005 20:12:36 GMT
Get over it everybody. Kerry lost because Tyrone were better enough said. Kerry should have played their own football besides trying to stifle the oppostion. I was proved right in my thaoughts forthe last year that Seamus Moynihan was past it and would be found out on the big day. He simply is not good enough anymore and hes perfomance on sunday could have marred a glittering carrer much like the bomber comin back out of retirement. Teres no point having workers in the half forward lie if they cant score. The kerry 1/2 line are a joke. Big deal declan sullivan can carry the ball.. So what he cant score can he???...Tomas o se has scored more over the last two champoinship seasons that dec o sullivan..Enough said
|
|
|
Post by ciarrai33 on Oct 1, 2005 9:39:25 GMT
spent alot of the match on sunday watching Conor Gormley at center back playing the sweeping role in front of the kerry inside forwards. this i think is a place i think kerry can work on exposing. Maybe the subsequent free centre forward should head more towards the opposition goal rather than dropping back into the cluter in midfield. This could end up of course with a 4 man full forward line, which could be interesting
|
|
|
Post by kerrygold on Oct 1, 2005 10:21:24 GMT
Well said Lolly Valance,agree 100%,i think its time to go back too our game,scrap this blanket defence lark and lets get back to mass blanket attack from no. 5 right up to no.15.The last day we had 11 players going forward and 4 running backwards.Wouldnt mind seeing seamus moynihan getting a run in the half forward line,he was streached a few time against mayo also.I hope joc stays on but if people want to get a manager from an outside county the only man for the job is micko,you would have 15 fired up kerrymen all running in the same direction attacking the opposition goal mouth.I would rather loose this way than loose playing that hybrid rugby league crossed with gaelic foothball.Watched the second half of the aussie footie last saturday,thought it looked very similar to the present game played here.There was one moment of magic when t.kennelly came srinting out of defence and at full pace chipped the ball up of the ground with his toe and drove on flat out.Lets bring back the skill and attacking flair to kerry football,we have genius waiting in the corner to be feed ball.
|
|
|
Post by kerryman on Oct 1, 2005 11:39:00 GMT
Lolly, you're wrong in saying that Declan can't score. The man can kick points from all angles but is not being used for that unfortunately.
I agree that he's not doing the right job out there though.
That goal he scored against Cork should give you an idea of what he is capable of. I saw him kicking points from play from 50 yards out when he was 17 or 18 so he can certainly do it now. Kerry just need to learn how to use him properly.
Half backs marking him wouldn't be so inclined to bate off up the field if their half forward was taking points at will which is the way it should be.
|
|
|
Post by Todd Unctious on Oct 1, 2005 13:04:45 GMT
in all fairness dos was all all over the back line going for the lose ball . i remember one stage in the 2nd half he caught a ball standing bout 5 feet away from mike mac
|
|
|
Post by mickthebridges on Oct 2, 2005 1:36:53 GMT
Have to agree with 'Ciarria 33', we lost the tactics battle big time. We just have to toughen up a lot more. Tyrone lads were brushing our tackles aside and running through unhindered. I know that Hassett wasn't feeling 100% prior to the game or Kirby either. We had Declan Quill & The Star sitting on the bench all day which was a bad mistake. Quill would surely have scored a few points & The Star hasn't been given much chance yet. Dont want to be hard on players that have given a lot to Kerry but at least three of the starting players were just not up to the physical battle of modern 'puke' football. That was the difference I think. Pick 14 lads that are prepared to put their bodies on the line for 70 odd minutes & you have a winning team. Well done to Tyrone, on the day they did what was necessary & until we learn to do what's necessary we are going to be known as the 'former' great footballing county.
|
|
|
Post by smellUlater on Oct 3, 2005 10:57:29 GMT
All comments there about DOS are perfectly valid.Second half in the final he became as useful as a crooked nail. I thought he was nearly kerry's best player in the first 15 mins(apart gooch) picking up the ball around midfield and driving at the tyrone defence. But the more the game wore on the more backwards he went to collect the ball and the more influential his man became for tyrone. Still think he is kerry's full forward for nexy year, as in a proper full forward to take on his man and get a few scores.
kerry are in a bit of trouble in the forward depatment - dara cinneide finished in my opinion class player in his day but anyday u hoping to see mike quirke to come on for him that should say enough. Mike Frank might as well hang up his boots too if he doesn't cop on to himself. Every game that he has to fight for possesion he is nowhere to be seen in the last 2/3 years. Thought Quill was the most cowardly of kerry forwards but i afraid mike frank is taking over that mantle.Pity cos he has(had??) class to burn when he going proper.
Dunno why Quirke is in the squad at all, thought he was suppose to be a plan b for tyrone last year but he could have been used as an alternative to mix it up with about 10 mins ago last week.
Looks like hassett is gone past it for when the big teams but sheehan can slot in nicely for him and add a bit more class to the side too.
backs should be good enough for another few years maybe minus moynihan but if anyone knows a stephen mcdonnell type player that can play for kerry post him right on down to the kerry gaa headquarters(register it in case it gets lost)
|
|
|
Post by FatTom on Oct 3, 2005 11:17:26 GMT
in all fairness dos was all all over the back line going for the lose ball . i remember one stage in the 2nd half he caught a ball standing bout 5 feet away from mike mac Dooher does the same and no one complains. Declan is an excellent player but had a bad day at the office. Never rated him at full but against Cork dropping out he did well. I thought Kerry left too many men in the full forward line, they should have dropped players out and freed space for Gooch. Saying that fellas just played bad anyway and Mike Mac was shocking for their goal, not like him. There was no need for him running up the pitch. It totally turned the game.
|
|
|
Post by lostinmayo on Oct 3, 2005 12:34:23 GMT
FatTom, Dooher does so much more than Dos and is the most effective player at what he does, only Galvin comes close. Never thought I'd be praising Dooher, but he is excellent for Tyrone he's a workhorse and keeps it simple. Dos gets the ball and runs headless with it, well he did in the final. Even Micky Harte said in one of his interviews he never expected him to play so deep and ait made it easy for Gormley, I think it was a bit of a swipe at JOC saying that he beat him in the tactics game, which he most deffo did.
As for the goal being the turning point, it was turning well before the goal and continued in the second half, it was a crucial score, but I think they would've won without it
|
|
|
Post by austinstacksabu on Oct 3, 2005 17:49:00 GMT
Well, back from a week in the homeland, and though not as bad as the miserable feeling I suffered all week in 2002, it was up there. I'd suggest you don't take your week to go home to the folks as the week after Kerry lose an All Ireland. You're surrounded by talk of nothing but why they lost.
Feck it anyway.
Having had a week to chew the mental fat on this one, just a few thoughts. Tyrone were by far and away the best team on the day. They were at least 6 points the better team. Most people say the goal was the turning point, it was the final squeeze of pressure that Tyrone had been exerting for nigh on 20 minutes.
At half time, my gut reaction was "Apart from becoming alot fitter, what learnings from 2003 did we apply on the pitch so far". I can't think of one. When something goes wrong, you learn why, and how to overcome that hurdle the next time. Kerry just played like a team who weren't sure after 20 minutes if they were doing the right thing, and when Tyrone exerted the pressure, we had no response. We reverted back to type. Seamus Moynihan has been an incredible servant to Kerry, and he may play on, but on Sunday week last, he should have gone at half time. He didn't hold his space, he didn't distribute the ball well, he killed the pace of the ball coming out to him and let Tyrone dictate what happend around that sector of the pitch. Seamus wasn't the only one, but he demonstrated what was wrong with the team as a whole the last day. They gave their all, but they didn't know how to beat Tyrone.
One point exemplifies all of this: 7 minutes gone in the second half, Moynihan passes a ball to a very deep Declan O'Sullivan, who, because the ball took so long to come, is surrounded by two Tyrone players instantly (Jordan was one I think). Now, modern thinking suggests that if two men tackle you, there should be one of your own team mates free to take the ball from you. The nearest man to Declan was Paul Galvin, over on the Cusack Stand sideline, 15 yards away.
Anyway, Tyrone were awesome in cranking up that pressure the last day. There are multiple reasons for this, chief among them being that Tyrone have an incredible squad of players, have more belief in their big toes that most counties combined have in themselves and they are all natural footballers who never panic because they know what they are doing. Fair dues to Mickey and gang, they deserve it.
There are, I believe, other reasons they won, and which I would like to discuss with ye all in the next day or two in a kind of state of the nation post. Factors like UK eductation sports grants etc all played a part, and it is something we will have to think about above in Austin Stack Park if we're to keep our heads on a level into the future.
But I'll leave it with a question for PH, Daz and especially Dermot, who I hope are still celebrating. Lads, why is it that Tyrone, knowing in their heart and soul that they're going to win resort to a) kicking the ball away from Diarmuid Murphy as he went to kick out the ball, b) rugby tackled Gooch as he went to take a pass back and c) Ryan McMenamin to do the same to Tomas O'Se. Now, I'll be fair, Tomas gave more than he got and layered it into Ryan's ribs after he was tackled, but Canavan, in his last act as a competitive Tyrone player, tackled a man off the ball and gave him a dig. Why? Feck it, if your ten year old kicked the ball away from the opposing keeper on Sunday morning down at the club, you'd slap him across the arse and tell him to cop on. Why is it that ye had to resort to these tactics. Now, Daz, I'm not whinging, ye won, ye deserved to win, ye blew us out of the water for 20 minutes of perfection at the end of the first half and ye were the better players all round, but what is it that forced ye to do stupid stuff like that. And don't come back saying this Kerry player did this and that etc. We didn't act like ten year olds and kick the ball away as a man went to kick it out. Just a question. I'm trying to understand the mentality of the players here. By the by, the Tyrone supporter and his son next to me applauded McConnells shoulder rub with Gooch, roared on Canavan when he tackled him and STOOD UP and roard praise at Philip Jordan when he kicked the ball away. And he's a county board man in Tyrone!!
|
|
madmac999
Senior Member
Who Put the ball in the Tarbert Net????
Posts: 724
|
Post by madmac999 on Oct 3, 2005 22:48:01 GMT
Great post austinstackabu.. I agree 100% with you, I have no problem in standing up and admitting that Kerry deserved to lose and the truth being we deserved to lose by more 5-6 points. Why Tryone had to resort to such under hand tactics is beyond my belief!!! They clealy had the beating of kerry. One of the main points of discussion I had with various people (Tryone & Kerry People) leading up to the game was the tight marking/attention Cooper was undoubtedly going to get on the day. We stated as did everyone else that Cooper would be hit early on as to subdue his game... Low and behold true to form with barely ten mins into game Cooper is hit.. A lot of flack is aimed at the northern brand of football which is totally uncalled for but I must say that there is a certain degree of underhandeness in Tryone and Armagh play.. Some may think of it as just pure ruthlessness and desire to do anything to win but the line has to be drawn somewhere. I m a great admirer of a hard game of football (Example North Kerry Championship) but pure bully boy tactics are ruining the game of GAA. Such petty things as kicking the ball away as the goalkepper is taking the kick is just pure school yard antics!!
|
|
|
Post by lostinmayo on Oct 4, 2005 13:03:45 GMT
Interesting point about UK education grants etc.. Stacks. I think you're right, I think the whole approach in Tyrone is more professional than it is in Kerry. Did ye read the article by Silke with McMennamin talking about his club Dromore, they have state of the art facilities there and pump thousands into the club, hace ice baths after every game and that's only for the juveniles. They really look after the younger people at club level and on the county team, i'd say majority are semi-professional.
It's in the same in every sport, even the professional game, the famous "fail to prepare, prepare to fail" quote. I remember when Munster lost to Wasps a few years ago in Dublin, Jim Williams had an article in the paper after it saying how their approach was just so much more professional and thorough than Munster's and in fairness Munster's was top class.
So, I think this is a very valid point, Tyrone I think were better prepared not because Jack hadn't prepared the Kerry team properly, but because the whole structure and attitude in Tyrone is different, everything is geared towards the panel and making sure they have best they possibly can get.
|
|
|
Post by phpearse on Oct 4, 2005 14:48:31 GMT
First up lads don't believe everything you read in the papers. The only ice baths Dromore have is the big blue barrell cut in two, filled with tap water and ice from the local pub. We have the same ourselves and we use them after every hard training session.
As for the other incidents in the game. Wasn't O'Neill booked for preventing the kick out near the end. Players do this during the game to slow the game down and near the end of a game to kill the game off. Seem to remember in the first half McConnell taking a kick out from th edge of the D after been prevented from taking the kick out, so both sides we at it. But must agree that doing it is acting the maggott.
Would need to watch Canavans 'rugby' tackle again, could have swore Cooper punched him after Cooper got up.
Have senior championship action tonite but I'll watch the video again tomorrow evening (only 2nd time) and let you know the amount of times Kerry players acting in an unsportsman like way!!
The points raised about money etc could well do with some further discussion. I'm sure in common with most GAA clubs throughout Ireland the majority of funding for clubs in Tyrone comes from local people and businesses. We recently opened a new field and the vast majority of funding came from club fund raising. A small percentage came from Sports Lotterry funding. There is quite a large amount of money being raised by Club Tyrone and this goes into the preparation of Tyrone county teams, both hurling and football. We have developments squads from as young as U14s and summer camps attended by all the county players. Peter Canavan spends the majority of his summer attending these summer camps, giving hands on coaching to the young boys and girls.
Former county players seem to get the nod when applying for jobs in the secondary schools around Tyrone. All the major football schools in Tyrone have former county players as teachers.
All of the above doesn't guarantee titles but it should hopefully mean that Tyrone football should be competitive in the years ahead.
|
|