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Post by Whosinmidfield on Jan 6, 2022 16:18:36 GMT
Building patience into our play is necessary as turnovers need to be kept to a minimum, so I agree it’s good that that is being practised now. I just hope a balance is struck because I thought a huge aspect of Dublin’s downfall this year was they overdid the possession game. They were obsessed with not losing but they ended up losing all penetration of the defence and never broke the line. Ultimately the aim of minding the ball and switching it is to create a gap or pocket of space to exploit. Tyrone mastered it well in fairness this year as MickMack highlighted.
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Post by thehermit on Jan 6, 2022 17:50:59 GMT
Just picking up on a few things from all the posts today.
First thanks for the kind words everyone but it was hardly the Con Houlihan standard of match reporting and we have our own Con Mark II on here anyway in Veteran - I won't be usurping the master and needless to say I'll not be in Thurles next Wed but will be relying on that clubber crowd so they'd had better have sorted the gremlins out by then.
OnlyKerry was much more observant on our tactics and what the Limerick defence had to offer and he was right in what he said. Limerick did put two walls of 7 in front of us most of the time, so perhaps I'm being over harsh in bemoaning the possession game. All the best teams are patient and probe. The point I was trying to make is that I hope under Jack we will be more adaptable. When keeping the ball and slow methodological play is the best option then sick to it. But when there is an opportunity to put the head down and run powerfully and direct at a defence - then take the chance. More than anything lets do what we are best at when the chance presents itself - kick in long and accurate. I saw some great examples of that last night and no defence will beat the right ball into space.
OnlyKerry also mentioned the incident with Murphy and I agree completely. Yes you can say the game was over, maybe the frost had made the ground harder so that explains the almighty bounce the ball had - BUT you need to be commanding your line at all times and he should have been out to smoother that ball the minute it came anywhere near him. You can't just switch off and hope to train yourself to switch on in a bigger game - this team as a whole badly needs mental consistency.
Kingdomboy asked about the kickouts and like OnlyKerry I felt Murphy's were grand out. Nothing to complain about there with the proviso that there was really no pressure put on him by the Limerick team.
Like others it seems clear that SOS will be in and around midfield for the League and I'm fascinated to see how he gets on. I've no doubt he will be quality the only question I'd have is putting him there robbing Peter to play Paul, ie creating a grand midfielder out of a brilliant centre forward.
Horse mentioned the conditioning and yes for me Paudie looked buff alright but am I the only one that thought the younger brother looked like he might have had a bit of Christmas weight on him (says the man that did his first run in 2 weeks yesterday and nearly collapsed by the time he got to Kilflynn church).
A final point on the pluses and minuses of starting such an experienced side yesterday. As others have already said its a 7 month season now and its hardly an excess amount of games for any player to play. They should be mad for them instead of the endless training they do.
For me the appointment of Jack was a clear signal from the CB that they know this is very close to the big prize and its all about getting in someone to drag us over the line. So Jack isn't here to put in place a long term strategy its to bring Sam back this summer after what is now an 8 year famine.
And if ending that famine means running some lads into the ground for one year than so be it says I. We have to get back on top!!
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Post by Mickmack on Jan 6, 2022 20:17:12 GMT
There is a place for direct running (even if only to draw fouls) and there should always be the option of a few good diagonal balls into DC or PG who can fetch over their head.
But the day will come in Croker when the winning and the losing of a big semi final or final will be the ability to build patiently, prod and probe and get the right man in a bit of space to score.....and above all....not give away costly turnovers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2022 20:30:09 GMT
Just picking up on a few things from all the posts today.
First thanks for the kind words everyone but it was hardly the Con Houlihan standard of match reporting and we have our own Con Mark II on here anyway in Veteran - I won't be usurping the master and needless to say I'll not be in Thurles next Wed but will be relying on that clubber crowd so they'd had better have sorted the gremlins out by then.
OnlyKerry was much more observant on our tactics and what the Limerick defence had to offer and he was right in what he said. Limerick did put two walls of 7 in front of us most of the time, so perhaps I'm being over harsh in bemoaning the possession game. All the best teams are patient and probe. The point I was trying to make is that I hope under Jack we will be more adaptable. When keeping the ball and slow methodological play is the best option then sick to it. But when there is an opportunity to put the head down and run powerfully and direct at a defence - then take the chance. More than anything lets do what we are best at when the chance presents itself - kick in long and accurate. I saw some great examples of that last night and no defence will beat the right ball into space.
OnlyKerry also mentioned the incident with Murphy and I agree completely. Yes you can say the game was over, maybe the frost had made the ground harder so that explains the almighty bounce the ball had - BUT you need to be commanding your line at all times and he should have been out to smoother that ball the minute it came anywhere near him. You can't just switch off and hope to train yourself to switch on in a bigger game - this team as a whole badly needs mental consistency.
Kingdomboy asked about the kickouts and like OnlyKerry I felt Murphy's were grand out. Nothing to complain about there with the proviso that there was really no pressure put on him by the Limerick team.
Like others it seems clear that SOS will be in and around midfield for the League and I'm fascinated to see how he gets on. I've no doubt he will be quality the only question I'd have is putting him there robbing Peter to play Paul, ie creating a grand midfielder out of a brilliant centre forward.
Horse mentioned the conditioning and yes for me Paudie looked buff alright but am I the only one that thought the younger brother looked like he might have had a bit of Christmas weight on him (says the man that did his first run in 2 weeks yesterday and nearly collapsed by the time he got to Kilflynn church).
A final point on the pluses and minuses of starting such an experienced side yesterday. As others have already said its a 7 month season now and its hardly an excess amount of games for any player to play. They should be mad for them instead of the endless training they do.
For me the appointment of Jack was a clear signal from the CB that they know this is very close to the big prize and its all about getting in someone to drag us over the line. So Jack isn't here to put in place a long term strategy its to bring Sam back this summer after what is now an 8 year famine.
And if ending that famine means running some lads into the ground for one year than so be it says I. We have to get back on top!!
Fair play to the hermit for a great match report, and for braving the cold, the cold last night would freeze the omocron out of you, trying to watch the game back now, Jay's that commentator on clubber would send you to sleep. Very strange but I'm not looking forward to the New season for some reason, usually I'd be counting down the days to the league but I'm not 1 bit excited for it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2022 20:49:36 GMT
The camera man has passed out or something as the camera hasn't moved since Adrian got injured 5 mins before the waterbreak, and it's stíl hasn't moved 2 mins after, this is amateur to say the least.
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Post by john4 on Jan 6, 2022 21:03:33 GMT
The camera man has passed out or something as the camera hasn't moved since Adrian got injured 5 mins before the waterbreak, and it's stíl hasn't moved 2 mins after, this is amateur to say the least. The famous Effin Eddie
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Post by diagonalball on Jan 6, 2022 21:09:11 GMT
While frustrating to see slow Kerry play, I think worth bearing in mind that Kerry tried direct running plenty of times against Tyrone last year and were swallowed whole. The direct running game can be too predictable at times and patience is often required. Patience only plays into their hands. Get it up the pitch quick before they can set up the blanket.
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Post by veteran on Jan 6, 2022 21:25:25 GMT
A lot of people here are suggesting Sean O’Shea as probable midfield option this year. There maybe some validity in that although I am not sure why you would remove him from the forty where he has been very successful.
The suggestion started me thinking as to how often he has played there at senior level for Kerry. I recall a NFL match against Dublin, not very clearly, a couple of years ago in Croke Park. It was the game , I think, where we lost Adrian Spillane and Brian O’Beaglaigh in quick succession to injuries. My vague memory also implicates Liam Kearney. Did he also go off injured or did he come on and play well? Between the jigs and the reels I recall Sean O’Shea , in the reshuffle, being switched to midfield where he was to a large extent anonymous.
Has anybody here any clearer recall of that match and in particular Sean’s contribution when he switched to midfield. Also, has he ever played a full game there for the seniors? Has he ever made a significant contribution when switched there? Are people suggesting him as a midfield option because we are short there or because he could make a greeter contribution there as opposed to the forty regardless of who is available for midfield selection.
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Post by royalkerryfan on Jan 6, 2022 21:27:06 GMT
Keep ball cost us badly in 2011 under Jack so I'd really hate to see that tactic again.
I really didn't see much wrong last year with fast movement of the ball. Our failing was not having a plan B when plan A failed against Tyrone.
If JOC slows it down with a possession based game with less risk taking then I don't think that's a positive.
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Post by royalkerryfan on Jan 6, 2022 21:36:21 GMT
A lot of people here are suggesting Sean O’Shea as probable midfield option this year. There maybe some validity in that although I am not sure why you would remove him from the forty where he has been very successful. The suggestion started me thinking as to how often he has played there at senior level for Kerry. I recall a NFL match against Dublin, not very clearly, a couple of years ago in Croke Park. It was the game , I think, where we lost Adrian Spillane and Brian O’Beaglaigh in quick succession to injuries. My vague memory also implicates Liam Kearney. Did he also go off injured or did he come on and play well? Between the jigs and the reels I recall Sean O’Shea , in the reshuffle, being switched to midfield where he was to a large extent anonymous. Has anybody here any clearer recall of that match and in particular Sean’s contribution when he switched to midfield. Also, has he ever played a full game there for the seniors? Has he ever made a significant contribution when switched there? Are people suggesting him as a midfield option because we are short there or because he could make a greeter contribution there as opposed to the forty regardless of who is available for midfield selection. Sean Oshea was hospitalised that night if memory serves me.
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Post by Whosinmidfield on Jan 6, 2022 21:43:07 GMT
I half remember that game too veteran and you’re right Seanie didn’t make much of an impression at midfield. Liam Kearney came on and after a nervous start where Fenton kicked 2 or 3 points in a row on him, had a very good game. I don’t think Seanie has played midfield for Kerry any other time.
I’d be totally against him moving out to midfield. I can’t see any reasoning behind it. He is a fantastic centre forward, can link the play very well as well as having a big scoring threat. I don’t think he’d be a brilliant midfielder as he’d be a half forward playing midfield so his fielding, height and possibly durability wouldn’t be at the same level as the top opponents in that sector. Don’t get me wrong he’s a fantastic footballer so he’d still be good but we just wouldn’t be getting the most out of him. I actually think we’ve less options in the half forward line than midfield so that’s not a reason either.
I see our midfield pairing coming from David Moran, Diarmuid O’Connor and Joe O’Connor. 3 excellent options who all bring different attributes and styles to the table. All 3 could very well be starters as well with Diarmuid at wing forward.
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Post by Whosinmidfield on Jan 6, 2022 21:44:42 GMT
A lot of people here are suggesting Sean O’Shea as probable midfield option this year. There maybe some validity in that although I am not sure why you would remove him from the forty where he has been very successful. The suggestion started me thinking as to how often he has played there at senior level for Kerry. I recall a NFL match against Dublin, not very clearly, a couple of years ago in Croke Park. It was the game , I think, where we lost Adrian Spillane and Brian O’Beaglaigh in quick succession to injuries. My vague memory also implicates Liam Kearney. Did he also go off injured or did he come on and play well? Between the jigs and the reels I recall Sean O’Shea , in the reshuffle, being switched to midfield where he was to a large extent anonymous. Has anybody here any clearer recall of that match and in particular Sean’s contribution when he switched to midfield. Also, has he ever played a full game there for the seniors? Has he ever made a significant contribution when switched there? Are people suggesting him as a midfield option because we are short there or because he could make a greeter contribution there as opposed to the forty regardless of who is available for midfield selection. Sean Oshea was hospitalised that night if memory serves me. I think he was hospitalised in 2018? The other game was 2020. Both in Croke Park.
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Post by royalkerryfan on Jan 6, 2022 21:49:33 GMT
Sean Oshea was hospitalised that night if memory serves me. I think he was hospitalised in 2018? The other game was 2020. Both in Croke Park. Sorry you are right, 2018 was the game i was thinking of.
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Post by brucewayne on Jan 6, 2022 22:01:06 GMT
I think the Sean O Shea move to midfield is being floated because he has a couple of advantages over a few of the established midfield players. I wouldn't see him as a replacement for Diarmuid O'Connor as no replacement is needed here. Swapped for David Moran, he would have better stamina simply due to his youth. Swapped for Jack Barry he is less likely to squander possession or scoring chances. Joe O Connor is an unknown quantity in the later stages of intercounty, hopefully he will offer something else again. Paudie Clifford is an excellent centre forward so we wouldn't be left short.
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Post by taggert on Jan 6, 2022 22:03:57 GMT
There is a place for direct running (even if only to draw fouls) and there should always be the option of a few good diagonal balls into DC or PG who can fetch over their head. But the day will come in Croker when the winning and the losing of a big semi final or final will be the ability to build patiently, prod and probe and get the right man in a bit of space to score.....and above all....not give away costly turnovers. Mick, agree that the footage shows the merit of applying patience and methodical probing to work the score. Ironically enough tho, what jumped out to me was the poverty of our defence given for all 3 scores we had significant numbers back. Tommy and Begley were completely naive for the 2nd and 3rd scores respectively - must have thought they were playing munster championship oppisition. It showed that having bodies back without a purpose or without an understanding of what they are doing as a collective is often a waste of time. As well as physically and mentally draining. Its an area that Kerry and Tally really need to work on. This is where its at for me at All Ireland semi and final level. Can we stop leaking big scores because if we dont we need to shoot the lights out - a high wire act every day.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2022 22:25:05 GMT
The camera man has passed out or something as the camera hasn't moved since Adrian got injured 5 mins before the waterbreak, and it's stíl hasn't moved 2 mins after, this is amateur to say the least. The famous Effin Eddie that's brilliant 🤪
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MeathExile
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Post by MeathExile on Jan 6, 2022 23:29:42 GMT
I remember the exact same about Jacko - 77 semi.
Re SoS - there are 3 positions in half forward line - why not SoS centre and Paudie on the wing.....we have lacked good wing forwards for several years now - and here is one staring us in the face.
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horsebox77
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Post by horsebox77 on Jan 6, 2022 23:30:03 GMT
On Seanie, that night in Croker the selected midfielders were Tommy Walsh and Adrain, Tommy went to FF and Seanie started in the middle but had a clash if heads on the throw in with Howard. Adrain also went over on the ankle and ya, Liam Kearney came in.
I saw Seanie as a lad fresh out of minors destroy Maher in the county championship one year and Maher was in his prime at the time.
The thing with Seanie is, he just had it in spades and can play or adapt to any roll. In the super 8's in 2019 in Navan, in DC's absence he played full forward and kicked 1-05 or so. I can see the reasoning and the merits to his positioning and due to his physique, ball winning and vision there are compelling arguments. However I also think he is the best forty yard man since Declan and for that reason I'd still be inclined to leave him at number 11.
For me Diarmuid O'Connor is the main man in posession, the progress of the untried Paul O'Shea and more so Joe O'Connor will tell a lot, the unavailability of the Tralee Club men for the early league games may give the likes of Adrain, Paul or others a chance to stake an early claim.
The likelihood of Seanie starting there against Kildare is highly probable-its a competitive league, we need options and horses for courses options available per game and even mid game depending on the opposition.
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Post by Mickmack on Jan 6, 2022 23:32:39 GMT
I remember the exact same about Jacko - 77 semi. Was it Paidi and Jacko at midfield that day?
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horsebox77
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Post by horsebox77 on Jan 6, 2022 23:40:41 GMT
Ya, I'd say Paidi's last day in mid field.
Was it Jack or Pat Shea that Started Darragh at 6 and Tomàs as 8 one league game vs Mayo in Tralee..
I remember Tomàs and Darragh caught on camers both smiling when the call came to revert back.
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Post by Mickmack on Jan 6, 2022 23:46:05 GMT
There is a place for direct running (even if only to draw fouls) and there should always be the option of a few good diagonal balls into DC or PG who can fetch over their head. But the day will come in Croker when the winning and the losing of a big semi final or final will be the ability to build patiently, prod and probe and get the right man in a bit of space to score.....and above all....not give away costly turnovers. Mick, agree that the footage shows the merit of applying patience and methodical probing to work the score. Ironically enough tho, what jumped out to me was the poverty of our defence given for all 3 scores we had significant numbers back. Tommy and Begley were completely naive for the 2nd and 3rd scores respectively - must have thought they were playing munster championship oppisition. It showed that having bodies back without a purpose or without an understanding of what they are doing as a collective is often a waste of time. As well as physically and mentally draining. Its an area that Kerry and Tally really need to work on. This is where its at for me at All Ireland semi and final level. Can we stop leaking big scores because if we dont we need to shoot the lights out - a high wire act every day. I agree that Kerry's defense needs fixing too. I suppose my main concern is the short space of time and lack of proper tests between now and 10th of July when the likelihood is that Kerry and Dublin will play each other in the All Ireland semi final. Who will battle harden and test Kerry in the meantime. The McGrath cup and Munster championship is unlikely to. I am sure Kerry will cut through poor defences in those games like a hot knife through but to what benefit. Ok there is the league but 4 of the last 5 league games are against Ulster teams who will be in full on preparation for the Ulster championship that starts in April so punches may be pulled in all of those games. Which leaves is with a QF game as possibly our only real preparation for the encounter with Dublin and Dublin look like they may get a few proper tests in Leinster this year. It all makes the A v B games in Currans very important and it points up the importance of having a lot of players involved to provide realistic training routines. There is no point complaining of course. The B option didnt get enough support at the EGM and Kerry didnt push for change.
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Post by heyjude on Jan 6, 2022 23:51:52 GMT
Few observations and notes from a bitterly cold night in Tralee: 1. It appeared to my eyes that only one back was allowed go forward with any freedom, Warren in first half and Tom Sullivan in second half. Does this point to a more solid rearguard plan? Gavin Crowley barely crossed the half way line all game along with Breen. Could be a one off but something to keep an eye on going forward. 2. I think Seanie will see a lot of time around the middle for Kerry this year. 3. We need more movement from our own kick outs. 4. Early days, but again signs of a zonal defensive system taking shape when Kerry lost the ball. Plenty of bodies back but perhaps guys not quite sure exactly where to be yet (to be expected). I spotted Tally watching the game from commentary box in second half. 5. Paudie Clifford is a serious baller. 6. Touched on in the hermit’s excellent report but David Clifford was extremely vocal during the first water break, appeared to be gesturing to the backs and keeper who were involved in a bit of a mess that presented a potential limerick goal. He really is the true leader of this team now. Looking forward to Tipp already… how did Murphy get on in goals? Were his kickouts any good? Hard to be really critical obviously due to the merits of the game and time of year but I personally felt a couple of times at least in the first half he was definitely looking for more movement, he usually opted to land a 50/50 in Adrian Spillane’s direction when this movement wasn’t forthcoming. Murphy definitely has the ability to land one running and he did this with Stephen O’Brien in the first half I believe. We need to be more pro active on our kick outs, it’s been a massive weakness for years.
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Post by heyjude on Jan 7, 2022 0:00:20 GMT
A lot of people here are suggesting Sean O’Shea as probable midfield option this year. There maybe some validity in that although I am not sure why you would remove him from the forty where he has been very successful. The suggestion started me thinking as to how often he has played there at senior level for Kerry. I recall a NFL match against Dublin, not very clearly, a couple of years ago in Croke Park. It was the game , I think, where we lost Adrian Spillane and Brian O’Beaglaigh in quick succession to injuries. My vague memory also implicates Liam Kearney. Did he also go off injured or did he come on and play well? Between the jigs and the reels I recall Sean O’Shea , in the reshuffle, being switched to midfield where he was to a large extent anonymous. Has anybody here any clearer recall of that match and in particular Sean’s contribution when he switched to midfield. Also, has he ever played a full game there for the seniors? Has he ever made a significant contribution when switched there? Are people suggesting him as a midfield option because we are short there or because he could make a greeter contribution there as opposed to the forty regardless of who is available for midfield selection. [br Think of it more as Jack wanting to crowd the middle with a number of big men rather than having Seanie as one of the traditional two. Moran, Seanie and Diarmuid O’Connor should prove a formidable trio combined with the half back line. I think Paul Murphy could be in trouble this year for a starting place, Jack prefers big men. You have Paudie Clifford to play link man on the 40, his kick passing is outrageous. I’d also like to see them try a full forward line including all three of Killian, David and Tony. If you kept two of the 3 inside at all times, the third could take turns dropping deeper, rotating in and out. Ultimately leaving a front 4 of Paudie, Killian, David and Tony. Could be lethal in my opinion. There’s a role for Geaney too but I think it’s from the bench. Maybe he can become our Bernard Brogan in his latter years for Dublin.
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horsebox77
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Post by horsebox77 on Jan 7, 2022 0:18:23 GMT
In think Paul Murphy was lucky to start last year. I actually rate Breen ahead of the Rathmore man, White is nailed on at number 7 so that leaves a serious dogfight for the remaining half backline places.
This year is make it break for Graham Sullivan, surely his own clubman as coach can get the best out of him this year.
I agree on your inside trio on paper but for me Brosnan hasn't fulfilled his potential or brought his Crokes form to the green and gold yet.
He needs to bed in a starting place and remain injury free.
Time will tell.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2022 1:04:01 GMT
how did Murphy get on in goals? Were his kickouts any good? Hard to be really critical obviously due to the merits of the game and time of year but I personally felt a couple of times at least in the first half he was definitely looking for more movement, he usually opted to land a 50/50 in Adrian Spillane’s direction when this movement wasn’t forthcoming. Murphy definitely has the ability to land one running and he did this with Stephen O’Brien in the first half I believe. We need to be more pro active on our kick outs, it’s been a massive weakness for years. I watched the game on clubber this evening and I noticed that Murphy left a ball hop over the bar, he could easily have come out and dealt with it but he didn't. I'm a big fan of Shane Ryan and il be hoping he'll get the nod come the serious stuff.
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Post by heyjude on Jan 7, 2022 1:37:13 GMT
In think Paul Murphy was lucky to start last year. I actually rate Breen ahead of the Rathmore man, White is nailed on at number 7 so that leaves a serious dogfight for the remaining half backline places. This year is make it break for Graham Sullivan, surely his own clubman as coach can get the best out of him this year. I agree on your inside trio on paper but for me Brosnan hasn't fulfilled his potential or brought his Crokes form to the green and gold yet. He needs to bed in a starting place and remain injury free. Time will tell. Yeah the big caveat with Tony is him staying fit and getting a run of games. He’s had awful luck with Kerry. He looked very sharp the last night anyway and long may it continue.
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Post by heyjude on Jan 7, 2022 1:40:03 GMT
Hard to be really critical obviously due to the merits of the game and time of year but I personally felt a couple of times at least in the first half he was definitely looking for more movement, he usually opted to land a 50/50 in Adrian Spillane’s direction when this movement wasn’t forthcoming. Murphy definitely has the ability to land one running and he did this with Stephen O’Brien in the first half I believe. We need to be more pro active on our kick outs, it’s been a massive weakness for years. I watched the game on clubber this evening and I noticed that Murphy left a ball hop over the bar, he could easily have come out and dealt with it but he didn't. I'm a big fan of Shane Ryan and il be hoping he'll get the nod come the serious stuff. That was bad alrite and showed he had lost concentration. Shane Ryan has only improved and I thought he had a fine year in 2021. The one area Murphy can possibly trump him is kick out but gun to head I reckon Shane Ryan will be number one in the summer.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2022 2:35:27 GMT
I watched the game on clubber this evening and I noticed that Murphy left a ball hop over the bar, he could easily have come out and dealt with it but he didn't. I'm a big fan of Shane Ryan and il be hoping he'll get the nod come the serious stuff. That was bad alrite and showed he had lost concentration. Shane Ryan has only improved and I thought he had a fine year in 2021. The one area Murphy can possibly trump him is kick out but gun to head I reckon Shane Ryan will be number one in the summer. Ya and Murphy is small and light looking, he doesn't have the same presence as Ryan, Ryan's kickouts have improved as well.
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Post by veteran on Jan 7, 2022 10:11:36 GMT
For me one of the most interesting aspects of the Austin Stacks v St. Finbarrs match will be the midfield clash. St. Finbarrs are very strong here with Ian McGuire and Brian Hayes. I rate Ian McGuire very highly. He will present Joe O’Connor with the test we were hoping he would get against David Moran. We should know a lot more about Joe after that clash and if he can match or overcome Ian it would be reasonable to conclude that we are dealing with a real one here.
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keane
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Post by keane on Jan 7, 2022 12:13:46 GMT
I'm not sure Joe exactly mopped the floor with Jack Barry in the county semi-final either. There's a lot of talk about (mostly imaginary) hyping of Stefan but IDK is he the fella we're getting most ahead of ourselves about at the moment tbh.
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