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Post by thehermit on Oct 14, 2021 12:06:16 GMT
If Proposal B or A do not get approved are we back to the Super 8s? In that scenario do we have assurances Dublin will not continue to benefit from the ludicrous situation where they get two home games as opposed to everyone else's one?!!! I think it's then a choice of super 8s or back to qualifiers and quarters. As for the other I doubt it ! Say croke park would love dublin vs kerry and whomever else big team is in thst group as those two games aswell.. Oh we all know what the Croke Park coffers would love but a reversion to Dublin getting the first two games in their backyard will just show up once again the farce the inter-county competition has become. One law for the mighty Dubs and to hell with the rest of us! Sure there's tickets and blue jerseys to be flogged and no market if they aren't constantly winning. |
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Post by dc84 on Oct 14, 2021 12:36:29 GMT
To my knowledge it was agreed before the covid hit that the gaa were to address the 2 croke park games for Dublin so I would imagine if the super 8s returned Dublin would only play one of the 3 games in croke park. In fairness to Donegal they put a motion in to stop that scenario but most counties voted against their motion. I believe the issue is/was that all teams should get to play in croke park and Donegals motion wouldve removed that from the team that would play dublin first which next year would be munster champs us probably. If the "neutral" game is actually neutral it would mean kerry in killarney vs ulster/connacht finalists ( or team that beats them) vs dublin in thurles ,and then away to whomever we hadn't played. Maybe not ideal for us either! |
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Post by onlykerry on Oct 14, 2021 12:39:26 GMT
I think it is high time that delegates and county boards demand a clear and unambiguous presentation of the proposals that will go before congress in less than two weeks time so a meaningful conversation can be had.
The current situation of bits and pieces of information (which have addendums and half clarifications) smacks of mandarins who are trying to manage the decision making process in a particular way.
What exactly is the status quo - is it super 8's or the older style qualifiers. Is plan B dumping Division 1's 6,7 & 8 place teams into oblivion after seven league rounds along with a number of Division 2 teams while running a B championship for Division 3 and 4 sides minus their league champions. The losers in this Plan B are the very teams with the best chance of getting into the upper echelons - they have nothing after 7 league rounds.
Who is driving this new "dawn" - money mandarins or genuine GAA people.
No decision should be taken until the options are clearly spelt out and a proper discussion takes place - this is our association and we need to take control.
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Post by thehermit on Oct 14, 2021 12:51:30 GMT
I think it is high time that delegates and county boards demand a clear and unambiguous presentation of the proposals that will go before congress in less than two weeks time so a meaningful conversation can be had. The current situation of bits and pieces of information (which have addendums and half clarifications) smacks of mandarins who are trying to manage the decision making process in a particular way. What exactly is the status quo - is it super 8's or the older style qualifiers. Is plan B dumping Division 1's 6,7 & 8 place teams into oblivion after seven league rounds along with a number of Division 2 teams while running a B championship for Division 3 and 4 sides minus their league champions. The losers in this Plan B are the very teams with the best chance of getting into the upper echelons - they have nothing after 7 league rounds. Who is driving this new "dawn" - money mandarins or genuine GAA people. No decision should be taken until the options are clearly spelt out and a proper discussion takes place - this is our association and we need to take control. An very good point. Amazing how people are expected to know what they are voting for when so much of it is still surrounded in obscurity. Most of the media are only presenting one side - Option B is brilliant let's do it. But they're not addressing the flaws in it at all. |
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Post by dc84 on Oct 14, 2021 12:56:29 GMT
I think it is high time that delegates and county boards demand a clear and unambiguous presentation of the proposals that will go before congress in less than two weeks time so a meaningful conversation can be had. The current situation of bits and pieces of information (which have addendums and half clarifications) smacks of mandarins who are trying to manage the decision making process in a particular way. What exactly is the status quo - is it super 8's or the older style qualifiers. Is plan B dumping Division 1's 6,7 & 8 place teams into oblivion after seven league rounds along with a number of Division 2 teams while running a B championship for Division 3 and 4 sides minus their league champions. The losers in this Plan B are the very teams with the best chance of getting into the upper echelons - they have nothing after 7 league rounds. Who is driving this new "dawn" - money mandarins or genuine GAA people. No decision should be taken until the options are clearly spelt out and a proper discussion takes place - this is our association and we need to take control. I would say the drivers for this for the most part are gaa people I agree it's not perfect re some of the better teams in d1 and 2 being excluded. But to continue in the way we are is pointless in my book leinster is dead, munster fairly similar and as we have seen last 2 years connacht is grand as in there are 2 decent contests a year but 20 plus hammerings in the other games. Ulster is competitive as always but hardly a reason to keep the hammerings in the other provinces ? Proposal b is not perfect but from a kerry point of view it could only help us proper competitive games where teams cant be resting players etc. |
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 14, 2021 12:57:10 GMT
Since Croke Park was redeveloped around 2005, the money people have held sway and driven policy.
They decided that Dublin needed to be strong for example as that would give bums on seats so they poured money in that direction.
The grassroots and players want more even games but if the sums dont add up the GAA wont push it.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 14, 2021 13:56:54 GMT
Sean Moran
The Gaelic Players’ Association got with the programme last week and conducted a detailed briefing session for media, to promote their advocacy of Option B – the league-based proposal – in the football championship reform debate.
It was a great deal different to back in 2017 when the round-robin All-Ireland football quarter-finals, or Super 8s as they became known were due up at congress.
Just the day before congress began, the GPA issued a statement saying that the players would oppose the idea of the round-robin quarter-finals. Predictably this rather late intervention was never going to exert much influence, even if it helped to fuel an explosion of wrath on social media when the proposals were slightly unexpectedly carried.
There had been reasons. Then GPA chief executive, Dermot Early had been appointed only a month previously and vowed to embark on a vigorous schedule of consultation. Complicating matters was that he, in a personal capacity, had a few months earlier had been supportive of the plan.
A large majority of the players consulted, 70 per cent, turned out to be opposed to the idea. The reasons given weren’t the most compelling, essentially a lack of consultation – despite the GPA being represented on Central Council – and unhappiness with the plight of the less successful counties for whom no format was going to guarantee progress.
Even when the Tailteann Cup, for a tier two championship, was being debated two and a half years later, the GPA opposed the idea because of a lack of fixtures for the counties involved.
These interventions gave the impression that the players’ body were content to carp on the sidelines, unhappy with any proposals brought forward and unable to secure agreement on their own blueprint.
So, last week’s presentation was a welcome advance on previous positions. It dismissed Option A, establishing four provincial-ish championships with eight counties in each – the necessary rationalisations to be effected by switching the weakest counties around, a bit like the deportation of struggling peasantry in the 19th century.
It was interesting that Tyrone’s All-Ireland winning goalkeeper Niall Morgan, one of the players brought along to articulate the membership’s view, doubtless reflecting the Ulster attitude to tinkering with the provinces, said at one stage that he was more in favour of the status quo than Option A.
The briefing was one of the first in-person media conferences outside of Croke Park since the pandemic struck all of 18 months ago.
From the top table, chief executive Tom Parsons enthusiastically endorsed the Tailteann Cup and commended his organisation’s information video, laid out how Option B would work: provincial championships to operate on a round-robin basis in the spring followed by a league-based championship structure, whittling down the knock-out stages to 10 teams chosen from four divisions, with varying levels of representation from the top to the bottom.
You couldn’t fault the energy of the presentation or the positivity of the players and their personal stories of frustration with being trapped in the inequality of the provincial systems.
The question of the Division One counties who don’t make the knock-out stages, Galway and Roscommon and either Armagh or Monaghan on this year’s model, was well answered by emphasising that league fixtures would all be championship matches and that if you can’t make the top five, you don’t deserve to progress.
It’s possible to accept that as rational while still believing that the counties concerned won’t see it that way when teams from lower divisions are proceeding to knock-out football.
GAA congresses have a history of showcasing the most intense buyer’s remorse since the South Sea bubble.
Another matter touched on at the event was the silence of Croke Park officialdom on the issue. That’s another difference from 2017 when the blueprint for change was driven by Páraic Duffy, then the GAA’s director general, who had devised the proposal.
This is the abiding difficulty for Option B. Its effective patron was former president John Horan, his term now over, who backed the league format. Neither successor Larry McCarthy nor director general Tom Ryan are saying very much on the issue, ostensibly because it’s a choice between alternatives, both proposed by a GAA task force.
In recent times, presidents have become more comfortable in taking advocacy positions and McCarthy went as far as to call for the association to be “bold”, which has been interpreted as favouring Option B. But you can’t afford to be that oracular if you want to influence the outcome.
Without high-profile backers, apart from the GPA, the proposal will struggle to get the necessary 60 per cent. This is largely because there’s no shortage of influential figures backing against it. Defence of the provincial championships isn’t all about vested interests or gate receipts
Many in the older generation, which is of course more likely to include decision makers, believe that provincial championships are important because of the tradition and the interest of counties in playing their neighbours – evidenced in the generally higher numbers attending provincial championships matches, compared to qualifiers between the same teams, even though the latter are sudden death.
Financial details haven’t been spelled out and it’s likely that gate receipts would suffer a lot more than they did when the provincial hurling championships switched to a round-robin basis three years ago.
That was for a series of competitive fixtures played at the best time of year whereas, as even the proponents of Option B point out, the provinces are currently hosting the worst mismatches in the football championship.
Overall, Option B is likely to fall short of the 60 per cent target not so much because of its merits but because there are too many loose ends that need to be tied up and after two massively disrupted years, delegates will want more certainty.
smoran@irishtimes.com
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 14, 2021 13:59:50 GMT
I got a land last night. A sports club that i am involved in held an EGM as the members brought a motion to stop a particular thing happening.
To win the motion, the motion had to get to 60% of the attendance.....not 60% of those who voted.
That was a new one on me.
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horsebox77
Fanatical Member
Our trees & mountains are silent ghosts, they hold wisdom and knowledge mankind has long forgotten.
Posts: 2,020
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Post by horsebox77 on Oct 14, 2021 14:21:19 GMT
MickMack
60% of who's there but you need to meet the required quorum body wise ya?
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 14, 2021 14:24:31 GMT
MickMack 60% of who's there but you need to meet the required quorum body wise ya? Yes |
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Jo90
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Post by Jo90 on Oct 14, 2021 14:56:15 GMT
Instead of having 10 teams qualifying from league for the c'ship (5 div 1, 3 div 2, 1 div 3, 1 div 4), I would have 20:
8 Div 1, 8 Div 2, 2 Div 3, 2 Div 4.
Top 4 in Div 1 go to 1/4 finals and could play-off to determine league champions to keep busy.
Other 16 teams have 2 rounds of games to bring them down to the 4 other 1/4 finalists.
Doesn't seem fair that 3rd in Div 2 enters c'ship while 6th in Div 1 is out.
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Post by The16thMan on Oct 14, 2021 16:09:46 GMT
Instead of having 10 teams qualifying from league for the c'ship (5 div 1, 3 div 2, 1 div 3, 1 div 4), I would have 20: 8 Div 1, 8 Div 2, 2 Div 3, 2 Div 4. Top 4 in Div 1 go to 1/4 finals and could play-off to determine league champions to keep busy. Other 16 teams have 2 rounds of games to bring them down to the 4 other 1/4 finalists. Doesn't seem fair that 3rd in Div 2 enters c'ship while 6th in Div 1 is out. If everybody in Division 1 was automatically straight into the QF's then there would be a lot more dead rubbers in Division 1. It gives teams incentive not to finish 6th or below. It makes the league a lot more interesting, the only downfall I have is the bottom half of Division 1 and 2 have nothing to play for after their 7 games, maybe in time there can be something done about that but AS IT STANDS Proposal B has the making of a lot more of a spectacle than the Status Quo currently has. The Status Quo currently has 3 top spectacles (2 AI semis and final) as well as 1 or 2 Ulster games or qualifiers. Imagine seeing a game like Meath v Derry scraping it out in a league game with a potential All Ireland QF at stake, it would attract full houses to Derry or Navan... the same game at the start of February in the league would probably attract only 1 or 2 thousand. It's a no contest in my opinion between Proposal B and the other proposals. Hopefully the delegates can swallow their pride and see sense next weekend. |
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 14, 2021 16:34:47 GMT
Instead of having 10 teams qualifying from league for the c'ship (5 div 1, 3 div 2, 1 div 3, 1 div 4), I would have 20: 8 Div 1, 8 Div 2, 2 Div 3, 2 Div 4. Top 4 in Div 1 go to 1/4 finals and could play-off to determine league champions to keep busy. Other 16 teams have 2 rounds of games to bring them down to the 4 other 1/4 finalists. Doesn't seem fair that 3rd in Div 2 enters c'ship while 6th in Div 1 is out. If everybody in Division 1 was automatically straight into the QF's then there would be a lot more dead rubbers in Division 1. It gives teams incentive not to finish 6th or below. It makes the league a lot more interesting, the only downfall I have is the bottom half of Division 1 and 2 have nothing to play for after their 7 games, maybe in time there can be something done about that but AS IT STANDS Proposal B has the making of a lot more of a spectacle than the Status Quo currently has. The Status Quo currently has 3 top spectacles (2 AI semis and final) as well as 1 or 2 Ulster games or qualifiers. Imagine seeing a game like Meath v Derry scraping it out in a league game with a potential All Ireland QF at stake, it would attract full houses to Derry or Navan... the same game at the start of February in the league would probably attract only 1 or 2 thousand. It's a no contest in my opinion between Proposal B and the other proposals. Hopefully the delegates can swallow their pride and see sense next weekend. Imagine Dublin coming to Killarney desperately needing a draw to avoid 6th place. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2021 18:28:25 GMT
If everybody in Division 1 was automatically straight into the QF's then there would be a lot more dead rubbers in Division 1. It gives teams incentive not to finish 6th or below. It makes the league a lot more interesting, the only downfall I have is the bottom half of Division 1 and 2 have nothing to play for after their 7 games, maybe in time there can be something done about that but AS IT STANDS Proposal B has the making of a lot more of a spectacle than the Status Quo currently has. The Status Quo currently has 3 top spectacles (2 AI semis and final) as well as 1 or 2 Ulster games or qualifiers. Imagine seeing a game like Meath v Derry scraping it out in a league game with a potential All Ireland QF at stake, it would attract full houses to Derry or Navan... the same game at the start of February in the league would probably attract only 1 or 2 thousand. It's a no contest in my opinion between Proposal B and the other proposals. Hopefully the delegates can swallow their pride and see sense next weekend. Imagine Dublin coming to Killarney desperately needing a draw to avoid 6th place. hi theyd make sure that wouldn't happen, when was the last time we played them in the last league game of the season? |
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Post by dc84 on Oct 14, 2021 19:37:07 GMT
The fixtures would be interesting to say the least would they copy the super 8s with 3 home 3 away and a neutral round ?
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Post by onlykerry on Oct 14, 2021 20:34:11 GMT
Instead of having 10 teams qualifying from league for the c'ship (5 div 1, 3 div 2, 1 div 3, 1 div 4), I would have 20: 8 Div 1, 8 Div 2, 2 Div 3, 2 Div 4. Top 4 in Div 1 go to 1/4 finals and could play-off to determine league champions to keep busy. Other 16 teams have 2 rounds of games to bring them down to the 4 other 1/4 finalists. Doesn't seem fair that 3rd in Div 2 enters c'ship while 6th in Div 1 is out. If everybody in Division 1 was automatically straight into the QF's then there would be a lot more dead rubbers in Division 1. It gives teams incentive not to finish 6th or below. It makes the league a lot more interesting, the only downfall I have is the bottom half of Division 1 and 2 have nothing to play for after their 7 games, maybe in time there can be something done about that but AS IT STANDS Proposal B has the making of a lot more of a spectacle than the Status Quo currently has. The Status Quo currently has 3 top spectacles (2 AI semis and final) as well as 1 or 2 Ulster games or qualifiers. Imagine seeing a game like Meath v Derry scraping it out in a league game with a potential All Ireland QF at stake, it would attract full houses to Derry or Navan... the same game at the start of February in the league would probably attract only 1 or 2 thousand. It's a no contest in my opinion between Proposal B and the other proposals. Hopefully the delegates can swallow their pride and see sense next weekend. I disagree - placings in Division 1 are still important if the rankings give home advantage and the top ranked team meets the bottom ranked team etc... What we are all in agreement about is the need for more evenly matched games and hopefully more excitement - eliminating some of the better teams and dropping in low ranked teams in a token gesture to make it look like everyone has a chance is bonkers. There are elements of Plan B that are an improvement on what we have but trying to railroad us into accepting Plan B as described and saying its this Plan B or the status quo (whatever that actually means) I would say BS - fine tune Plan B and try again. |
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 14, 2021 20:39:25 GMT
The hurling championship is basically run off between the top 8 or 9 counties. Thats why it gets the TV coverage. Even at that we get a few one sided games. The football league as it stands gives us the top football counties. All they have to do is run the league as it is. Race for Sam Maguire Put the teams who end up in the top 6 positions plus the two who end up top of division 2 into a pot and have a draw for 4 quarter finals. Then you have two semi finals etc. The two who are relegated from div 1 plus the other 6 in division 2 would play off for the Next valued trophy....call in Paidi oSe cup for now. The division 3 and 4 teams could be done on the same basis. Every county could aspire to win the Sam Maguire if they climb through the league divisions. There would be lots of great even games between counties of even standard. The TV companies would be interested in televising them as they would be contests that people like to see...the way the hurling is at the moment. Onlykerry....would you agree with my suggestion. The two promoted from div 2 would replace the two relegated from division 1 to make up the 8 teams that can play for the Sam Maguire |
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Post by onlykerry on Oct 14, 2021 20:49:38 GMT
The hurling championship is basically run off between the top 8 or 9 counties. Thats why it gets the TV coverage. Even at that we get a few one sided games. The football league as it stands gives us the top football counties. All they have to do is run the league as it is. Race for Sam Maguire Put the teams who end up in the top 6 positions plus the two who end up top of division 2 into a pot and have a draw for 4 quarter finals. Then you have two semi finals etc. The two who are relegated from div 1 plus the other 6 in division 2 would play off for the Next valued trophy....call in Paidi oSe cup for now. The division 3 and 4 teams could be done on the same basis. Every county could aspire to win the Sam Maguire if they climb through the league divisions. There would be lots of great even games between counties of even standard. The TV companies would be interested in televising them as they would be contests that people like to see...the way the hurling is at the moment. Onlykerry....would you agree with my suggestion. The two promoted from div 2 would replace the two relegated from division 1 to make up the 8 teams that can play for the Sam Maguire It is an improvement on the current plan B as the 8 top teams effectively compete for the Sam Maguire. A third competition is probably an over complication and will be difficult to give three competitions due recognition and status. I have some sympathies for the concept of every team having a theoretical chance of winning the Sam Maguire and also have some lingering loyalty to the provincial competitions - I would not be against a formula that gives the four provincial winners a place in the Sam Maguire plus the next 12 best ranked teams from the leagues not already qualified - form four seeded groups and run the competition from there. The remaining teams go to the Tailteann competition. |
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Oct 14, 2021 21:55:09 GMT
Onlykerry....would you agree with my suggestion. The two promoted from div 2 would replace the two relegated from division 1 to make up the 8 teams that can play for the Sam Maguire It is an improvement on the current plan B as the 8 top teams effectively compete for the Sam Maguire. A third competition is probably an over complication and will be difficult to give three competitions due recognition and status. I have some sympathies for the concept of every team having a theoretical chance of winning the Sam Maguire and also have some lingering loyalty to the provincial competitions - I would not be against a formula that gives the four provincial winners a place in the Sam Maguire plus the next 12 best ranked teams from the leagues not already qualified - form four seeded groups and run the competition from there. The remaining teams go to the Tailteann competition. That is not a million miles from the Jim McGuinness model. |
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 14, 2021 22:24:38 GMT
Irish Examiner Logo
THU, 14 OCT, 2021 - 21:22
JOHN FOGARTY
The GAA’s finance department have dismissed the claim that the League as Championship football proposal will be more financially lucrative for the organisation.
County treasurers were informed by GAA director of finance Ger Mulryan on Thursday night that Croke Park project a football season featuring pre-2018 qualifier system would actually reap more gate receipts than either the All-Ireland SFC League or the four eight-team provincial conferences.
Highlighting the differences between the three systems are relatively insignificant and stressing there was no favoured structure, it was the finance department’s estimate that a senior football season featuring the backdoor and Tailteann Cup would bring in a net €19.6m.
They see Proposal A featuring the provincial conferences earning €19.3m and the All-Ireland SFC League €18.8m, which would be a loss on the Super 8 season of 2019 and nothing close to the analysis that Proposal B could earn the GAA more than €10m in gate receipts.
That review put forward by calendar review taskforce member Conor O’Donoghue was considered to be inflated. His use of the average attendance of Super 8 games in 2018 and '19 as 18,500 was criticised when average league attendances in Division 1 of 8,000 to 9,000 were considered as a more realistic metric in modelling the All-Ireland SFC League in summer. His numbers not reflecting juvenile and other concessions were also highlighted.
While Croke Park envisage attendances for an All-Ireland SFC League increasing championship attendances by 20% largely due to the extra number of games, they would not see increased gate revenue.
The finance department believe the provincial leagues, were they to be introduced for next year, would reap around a net €5.1m. Otherwise, they would see it earning €10.5m for Central Council games (All-Ireland preliminary quarter-finals onwards and Tailteann Cup) and €3.2m for the league championship stages.
The finance department project the All-Ireland SFC as last seen in 2017 with the addition of the Tailteann Cup would see the league bringing in €3.4m as was the case in 2019, €4.9m from the provincial championships with the All-Ireland series and Tailteann Cup providing €11m.
With the current Allianz League system and status also being retained under the four eight-team provincial conferences option, the estimated €3.4m would also be gained with the remainder coming from the provinces (€4.9m) and the All-Ireland series and Tailteann Cup (€10.7m).
MORE GAELIC FOOTBALL ARTICLES
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Post by thehermit on Oct 15, 2021 7:39:22 GMT
Munster GAA chief: 'Anomalies' in Proposal B too big to overlook: www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40721553.htmlBetween what Mickmack has posted above and this story from the Examiner this morning your beginning to suspect Plan B is not long for this world. Personally I don't like it. Yes its better than what we have but it could be even better again and needs to be too. The provincial championships should have some meaning. I just never understood the basic principle of deleting 5 potential trophies for only one (or two with the Tailteann Cup). |
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Post by hatchetman on Oct 15, 2021 8:51:14 GMT
Does anyone know of any other (non-GAA) sports competition in the world where a lower ranked team/player progresses to the finals at the expense of a higher ranked team/player?
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Oct 15, 2021 9:04:41 GMT
Munster GAA chief: 'Anomalies' in Proposal B too big to overlook: www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40721553.htmlBetween what Mickmack has posted above and this story from the Examiner this morning your beginning to suspect Plan B is not long for this world. Personally I don't like it. Yes its better than what we have but it could be even better again and needs to be too. The provincial championships should have some meaning. I just never understood the basic principle of deleting 5 potential trophies for only one (or two with the Tailteann Cup). They're not getting rid of the provincial championships in Plan B though... |
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 15, 2021 9:36:27 GMT
Its gas the way anomolies in the proposal are tut tutted at when the existing system is beyond farcical.
Plan B is a definite improvement and it can be improved upon as time going by.
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Post by buck02 on Oct 15, 2021 9:39:40 GMT
When there was no figurehead from the top brass in Croke Parkcoming out and promoting Proposal A or B I feared for the chances of any of them getting the required support.
Then the GAA come out and put these financial figures and they might as well have thrown the proposals under a bus such will be the consequences.
I still think people are comparing the existing league to the proposed championship league and thinking they will be the same thing which they absolutely will not be.
Imagaine the scenario that Kerry have their last 3 "league games" in May, early June and they need to win 2 of them. Dublin in Killarney, Mayo in Castlebar and Armagh in Killarney. Imagine the buzz those games would bring - do people think the same 8,000 would show up in Castlebar for the fixture that showed up on a freezing day after a storm in March 2019.
Its disappointing but not surprising that there is an unwillingness to try something out for a few years when it's been obvious for years that the current championship is not fit for purpose by a country mile.
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Post by buck02 on Oct 15, 2021 9:41:27 GMT
Its gas the way anomolies in the proposal are tut tutted at when the existing system is beyond farcical. Plan B is a definite improvement and it can be improved upon as time going by. Nailed the debate in a nutshell. |
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Post by thehermit on Oct 15, 2021 9:51:10 GMT
Munster GAA chief: 'Anomalies' in Proposal B too big to overlook: www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40721553.htmlBetween what Mickmack has posted above and this story from the Examiner this morning your beginning to suspect Plan B is not long for this world. Personally I don't like it. Yes its better than what we have but it could be even better again and needs to be too. The provincial championships should have some meaning. I just never understood the basic principle of deleting 5 potential trophies for only one (or two with the Tailteann Cup). They're not getting rid of the provincial championships in Plan B though...
I know but don't you agree they'll become nothing more than the likes of the McGrath Cup under that system? And any prestige about winning them will be gone. Fair enough a Munster medal means very little to a Kerry player but it would mean a hell of a lot to players from all the other 5 counties. There must be a way to have the provincial system play a meaningful part of the Championship and still allow a system where teams also get to play counties of similar level for a fair share of games.
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Post by clarinman on Oct 15, 2021 17:06:25 GMT
The fixtures would be interesting to say the least would they copy the super 8s with 3 home 3 away and a neutral round ? Good idea. The difference between fifth and sixth in division one should not be allowed to come down to one team having four home games and another having only three. |
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Post by buck02 on Oct 15, 2021 17:55:29 GMT
Marc O Se has given a very strong endorsement for Plan B on the radio just now
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 15, 2021 19:58:27 GMT
Irish Examiner Logo
NEWS
SPORT
LIFESTYLE
OPINION
FRI, 15 OCT, 2021 - 17:10
TONY LEEN
Kevin O’Donovan has been here before.
The Cork CEO went so far as sowing the seed for clubs playing championship games without their inter-county elite for lesser points in a bid to stimulate the championships in his own county.
By the by, it accumulated almost 25% support when it went to delegates in 2019, but the new model ultimately conceived — group structure, next-to-no dead rubbers — unquestionably breathed new life into what Leesiders like to call their ‘The Little All-Ireland’.
As a member of the GAA’s calendar review committee, O’Donovan is again strapped in and striving for meaningful change to the All-Ireland football championship. By nature an outside-the-box thinker, he argues with some conviction that the league as Championship format can “change the course of history in terms of the betterment of Gaelic football”.
A game, he adds, that’s been drifting for a decade.
“When you have the players calling for change, and not for any benefit to themselves other than they want to be playing competitive football in the summer months, then it’s time to act accordingly.
“I’ve yet to hear any players speaking against this Proposal B. Compare football now to how hurling has successfully introduced tiers and been innovative with formats,” he suggests.
There is universal support for the National League format as it sits, it’s a fantastic competition. Why not put your best product into your main shop window, which is the summer months?”
O’Donovan is aware of the perception this proposal could do with better parenting and points out that his unequivocal support is personal and not on behalf of Cork, which deliberates on the issue next Tuesday.
So what of the concerns, spurious or not, raised in recent days. The finances. The provinces. The ‘sixth team in Division 1’ factor. Positive change is incremental. Layers can be added, he says.
“In terms of linking the provincial and summer championships, that can be looked at in the immediate future in terms of seedings, extra home games. When you are bringing a new motion like this, there are only so many legs you can add to it first time out. People have got to embrace the spirit of it. Gaelic football needs this shot in the arm and, of course, we will look at all those tweaks in time.
“After, say, three years, you can see how the Division 3 winners are getting on in that preliminary quarter-final and whether the gap is still there. Then you can have a look at tiered championships. We can look at that in the future, but if we don’t take the first step towards change, we are left with the status quo and no alternative on the table despite a clear consensus this current championship structure has served its time.
“This debate is about doing right by the game of Gaelic football — for players, for management, and very importantly for supporters. And the best way for those groups to enhance their enjoyment is to strongly support Proposal B. To have regular, meaningful, competitive games for players from all 32 counties throughout the summer.
“We need a structure that gives everybody a route to the top, but an equitable route to the top. Brutal mismatches in the provinces, and players leaving for the summer when there’s no prospect of success once the National League is over — is that what we want? Of course, there’s the finances and the fact we need games in provincial grounds and county towns but, crucial as that is, it is secondary to the wellbeing of the game itself. This will only do good things for football.”
He says the anomaly of the sixth placed side in Division 1 going out of the Championship ‘was deliberated at length by the committee’.
“We have got to look at fairness for 32 counties in this model. You might argue Team Six is better than Team 25 (Division 4 winners), but Team 25 has worked at their level, possibly won seven from seven.
And there was a consensus in all our research that each team must still have a chance to win Sam Maguire. The alternative is to pull up the rope and have the Super League and forget the rest for the blue riband of Gaelic football.
“We have to allow football counties with bigger challenges, fighting for their lives to keep players and keep participation up, a chance. The alternative would be to pull up the drawbridge on those counties. Those 16 counties in Divisions 3 and 4 are fighting off for two spots at the big table — that was a trade-off worth making.
“The alternative was another team, the sixth placed in Division 1, which has probably lost at least three of its games, getting into the knockout phase. They’ve had their seven Championship games! In reality, the alternative to this proposal is a Super League which seals off the Championship for the elite and puts the lower two divisions into a separate Tommy Murphy/Tailteann Cup scenario. We all know how that would end.”
What hasn’t been properly showcased is the double jeopardy of the Tailteann Cup in the Proposal B scenario.
“At the end of the seven-game league championship rounds, it’s two up, two down across the divisions. So the top two in Divisions 3 and 4 are promoted, and bottom two in 3 are relegated. We are reducing dead rubbers significantly. I accept that fear (of dead rubbers) but it is largely unfounded. If you have teams going out of the league at both ends, top and bottom, you will finish with very few meaningless games.
“But winning the Tailteann Cup can save a Division 3 team from relegation or get them up a division instead of another county that might finish second in that division. The Tailteann Cup has got to have meaning for the summer months to stop those guys getting on the planes to America.”
Explain that? “The winners of the Tailteann Cup, even if they had a bad league, can save their status and avoid relegation. That works for promotion too — winning the competition trumps coming second in the league. It keeps everyone honest and active for the summer and again looking to ensure every game has a consequence and there are as few dead rubbers as possible.
“It’s a trump card that can win you promotion or save you from relegation. The third from bottom team in the same division would be relegated instead. Why are we doing this? To give the Tailteann Cup value. There has to be an initial trade-off here in tweaking and making sure every game has consequence and the Tailteann Cup has real meaning, value and consequence. It needs that consequence, otherwise the Division 3 and 4 counties will lose faith again.”
O’Donovan anticipates a significant ramp up in debate over the coming days. The mandarins have had their say. Now it’s the turn of the GAA’s proletariat as county boards prepare to adopt formal positions on the future of the football championship.
The Ulster stance, as articulated by its CEO in recent days, is hardly a surprise given the vibrancy of its provincial football championship as is.
“The provincial championships are here to stay with this model,” O’Donovan says, countering the idea that Ulster is the only province with a football championship to be proud of.
“If anything, they are forming a new identity under the model where they will have more games for every county. In Munster we have a round-robin format under this proposal, Kerry will be coming to town, same with Cork.
But that famed Munster final day in Killarney is now replaced by seven summer days, with three or four of them in Killarney where Dublin, Tyrone, and, hopefully, Cork, are coming to town. Let’s not claim those days are gone.
“Also, games in February or March have had no effect on the National League down the years, which is the best competition we have. Has that window done the league any harm? Plus there’s the added benefit now of those Ulster or Munster derbies in the summer if the teams have earned the right to play each other. There has to be some trade off along the way but don’t say that the Ulster Championship won’t be dog-eat-dog in the spring with each county going out to win it, because it will. People need to look at this as a 32-county motion. If you look at it through narrow lenses, you might not see the benefit there.
“On the revenue, there is an appetite there to go to extra games if they are meaningful and if they are competitive. In terms of the history and the fabric of the provincials, I don’t put one over the other. All provinces have had brutal mismatches from time to time, including Ulster. We have pride in the Munster Championship too, by the way. And a new round-robin means there won’t be counties praying they are the other side of the draw to Kerry.
“In every competition in every sport, there are mismatches. They are unavoidable. But perhaps the odd mismatch in the springtime can be handled a bit better by all concerned than in the summer. Teams can still recover their dignity against sides of their own level in the summer.”
He saw with the Cork revamp the fear of change, and of the unknown. Perhaps for the reasons of a Covid pause, a change of GAA presidency and the fact the Calendar Review group is no longer an active committee, there seems to be “a gap” in relation to who is sponsoring this drive for change.
“I am speaking on what I think is best for football as a member of the Calendar review committee. Support is building the more people drill down. Covid delayed this motion and there seems to be a bit of catch-up going on. But this motion will change the course of history in terms of bettering Gaelic football. Those with quibbles must examine it from a perspective of something tangible for all counties in the peak window for the championship.”
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