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Post by onlykerry on May 23, 2021 17:09:00 GMT
Some people on this forum might want to rewatch the match. It wasn’t a free at the throw-in for the second half. The play was stopped due to a head injury. Fenton had gathered the loose ball. Thus he restarted with possession. When Small was injured it was a hop ball and not a free in. And a pet peeve of mine the advantage rule. Playing an advantage unfortunately does not give the fouled player permission to themselves commit a foul. Moynihan was fouled but he cannot take 9 steps to score a goal. Because of this over carry the ref brings it back for a free in. Unfortunate but perfectly appropriate refereeing. When was the last time Dublin scored only 9 points in a match I wonder?? A foul that denied a goal scoring opportunity inside the 21? was a penalty last weekend in the Dublin-Roscommon game (twice) but not this weekend so I disagree with your assertion of "perfectly appropriate refereeing". I think I counted six missed scoring opportunities from each side in the first 10 minutes. I also wonder when was the last time Dublin had a seven point lead in a game and not win it.
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kot
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Post by kot on May 23, 2021 17:19:33 GMT
Serious consideration has to be given now to reducing David Moran to a cameo role. To demand the ball so often then be ponderous before giving it away is killing us. It was the same against Cork last year, final in 2019 and in several games going back to 2015. Added to that, he doesnt have the legs to get around and chase the likes of dublin.
Would be far more beneficial bringing him in now with 15 / 20 to go. The question is who replaces him.
Was very encouraging to see Diarmaid O’ Connors performance today.
Clifford, what more can you say. Seen a lot of comments about dara moynihan taking steps, if you are being fouled it prevents your ability to hop or solo (paritularly if your arm is being held back)…. hence calling steps is nonsense and being said by people who either despise Kerry or have never kicked a ball in their life.
Great comeback, pity we forgot to play to our strengths for 40 odd mins between beginning and end.
Still not convinced we can trouble them later in the year but if you offered me a draw at half time, yes please.
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Post by pipsqueak01 on May 23, 2021 17:21:42 GMT
Some people on this forum might want to rewatch the match. It wasn’t a free at the throw-in for the second half. The play was stopped due to a head injury. Fenton had gathered the loose ball. Thus he restarted with possession. When Small was injured it was a hop ball and not a free in. And a pet peeve of mine the advantage rule. Playing an advantage unfortunately does not give the fouled player permission to themselves commit a foul. Moynihan was fouled but he cannot take 9 steps to score a goal. Because of this over carry the ref brings it back for a free in. Unfortunate but perfectly appropriate refereeing. When was the last time Dublin scored only 9 points in a match I wonder?? A foul that denied a goal scoring opportunity inside the 21? was a penalty last weekend in the Dublin-Roscommon game (twice) but not this weekend so I disagree with your assertion of "perfectly appropriate refereeing". I think I counted six missed scoring opportunities from each side in the first 10 minutes. I also wonder when was the last time Dublin had a seven point lead in a game and not win it. Two separate arguments. I was saying that you can’t play advantage in that situation. It is always a source of consternation but you can’t just keep running. It’s a misinterpretation of the rule. I think the new rule re:penalty for a cynical foul for goal scoring opportunity is unrefereeable but I don’t think the foul on Moynihan should qualify! It could not be deemed cynical and if you don’t allow defenders make tackles we might as well pack it in. Re last weekend, although I dislike the rule, I would say the first one was appropriate but other two penalties were poor decisions.
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Post by pipsqueak01 on May 23, 2021 17:24:24 GMT
Serious consideration has to be given now to reducing David Moran to a cameo role. To demand the ball so often then be ponderous before giving it away is killing us. It was the same against Cork last year, final in 2019 and in several games going back to 2015. Added to that, he doesnt have the legs to get around and chase the likes of dublin. Would be far more beneficial bringing him in now with 15 / 20 to go. The question is who replaces him. Was very encouraging to see Diarmaid O’ Connors performance today. Clifford, what more can you say. Seen a lot of comments about dara moynihan taking steps, if you are being fouled it prevents your ability to hop or solo (paritularly if your arm is being held back)…. hence calling steps is nonsense and being said by people who either despise Kerry or have never kicked a ball in their life. Great comeback, pity we forgot to play to our strengths for 40 odd mins between beginning and end. Still not convinced we can trouble them later in the year but if you offered me a draw at half time, yes please. If someone is impeding your leg you can’t take two hops!!! It’s not an advantage if you cannot take advantage of it fairly! It’s a free
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Post by ataboy on May 23, 2021 17:34:21 GMT
Why was a free given to Dublin when John Small pulled hamstring ? Thought a hop ball was given. Looked like a bad tear, if it's long term Small would be a huge loss.
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Post by kerryeastcoastusa on May 23, 2021 17:39:42 GMT
Serious consideration has to be given now to reducing David Moran to a cameo role. To demand the ball so often then be ponderous before giving it away is killing us. It was the same against Cork last year, final in 2019 and in several games going back to 2015. Added to that, he doesnt have the legs to get around and chase the likes of dublin. Would be far more beneficial bringing him in now with 15 / 20 to go. The question is who replaces him. Was very encouraging to see Diarmaid O’ Connors performance today. Clifford, what more can you say. Seen a lot of comments about dara moynihan taking steps, if you are being fouled it prevents your ability to hop or solo (paritularly if your arm is being held back)…. hence calling steps is nonsense and being said by people who either despise Kerry or have never kicked a ball in their life. Great comeback, pity we forgot to play to our strengths for 40 odd mins between beginning and end. Still not convinced we can trouble them later in the year but if you offered me a draw at half time, yes please. If someone is impeding your leg you can’t take two hops!!! It’s not an advantage if you cannot take advantage of it fairly! It’s a free I think this is the reason for the penalty award. It’s clear you cant allow advantage if you yourself are fouling the ball so this is why the correct decision would have been penalty.
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kot
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Post by kot on May 23, 2021 17:46:02 GMT
You cannot hop or solo the ball if your arms are being impeded. A hop or solo needs to come back into your chest via your hands.
And you can actually hop twice whilst being fouled, if you hop the ball and try to solo while your arm or leg are being held you can use a hand to hop a second time.
He did not give advantage, he blew almost right after he was fouled while he was tsking advantage.
You’re talking absolute drivel, sorry.
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Post by taggert on May 23, 2021 17:46:10 GMT
Why was a free given to Dublin when John Small pulled hamstring ? Thought a hop ball was given. Looked like a bad tear, if it's long term Small would be a huge loss. Let's be honest. Dublin usually get a 30 minute challenge in the semi before the final (last years final was over after 45 mins). He has plenty time to be back for the business end in mid and late August. They won't change how they play anyway - they have a tried and tested system that 30 or so players are very familiar with.
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Post by southward on May 23, 2021 18:05:16 GMT
Is it fair to say that Dublin at this stage have virtually abandoned the game of football altogether. What I'm seeing the past few years is little more than a combination of basketball and rugby league with kicking mostly reserved for the final act of an interminable "move", if even then. It's an old moan, I know, but the problem seems to be worsening.
For sure it works in terms of getting results and plays to Dublin's athletic strengths. It's very difficult to counteract or to dispossess without fouling when lads are just throwing the ball 5 yards ad-nauseum. It's also mind-numbingly boring to watch; I remember even the Dublin fans booing them in the 2019 AI final. Today was just chronic and there was only one side trying to play football.
What happened to the swashbuckling Dublin of c2013 - did Donegal leave that much of a scar?
Of course it all comes back to the handpass rule (or lack thereof) and the baffling refusal of the GAA to put any sort of manners on the practice.
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Post by taggert on May 23, 2021 18:14:07 GMT
Its a set of rules that are confounding players, officials, referees and fans alike. Happy to be corrected here: 1. Foul inside the penalty box remains a peno - as per twice today. 2. Foul inside the 21 is a peno, but only if the offence was a black card offence (cynical) AND denied a certain goal scoring opportunity. 3. 2020 and earlier Advantage rule gave referees the opportunity to play an advantage, up to five seconds, if a player was being fouled but had the possibility to play on However, a quirk in the GAA rulebook indicated that the referee must give the latest foul that has occurred. For example, if an attacking player is fouled by the defender but continues to play on and takes too many steps, the referee – even though he is playing advantage to the attacker – must, by rule, give a free out for over-carrying. 4. Advantage rule was changed for 2021 as they decided to change the wording of the rule this year where an official can only play advantage if there is “the potential of goal-scoring opportunity” or “by creating or capitalising on time and space”. Again, this leaves a lot up to the referee’s interpretation, but what seems to have happened in both football and hurling so far is that officials are blowing for fouls they see straight away, leading to many inter-county managers giving out about the ‘stop-start’ nature of games now.
So taking the Dara M incident: Not 1, obviously. Not 2, as foul was a standard yellow but not a black even if it was a certain goal scoring opp. Not 3 as that was 2020 but it would have been a free out for over carrying if it was (my earlier post re Murchans All Irl winning goal v Kerry, incorrectly allowed in my book as altho impeded he overcarried by the letter of the previous rule). Yes its 4, Referee blew for a free.
Who'd be a ref?!
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on May 23, 2021 18:22:04 GMT
Do we have a gym in our new training complex?
We are a good bit behind physically, easily a match as footballers and prob better if truth be told
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Post by Annascaultilidie on May 23, 2021 18:26:32 GMT
I thought Dublin kicked in the first half but by God were they boring to watch when they got ahead.
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Post by royalkerryfan on May 23, 2021 18:33:33 GMT
Do we have a gym in our new training complex? We are a good bit behind physically, easily a match as footballers and prob better if truth be told One of best gyms in the country. I wouldn't agree regarding physicality at all we just are struggling in height at the back.
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Post by taggert on May 23, 2021 18:50:26 GMT
Sherwood getting form and winning a starting place would be very welcome as we have too many small 'uns back there....and he is a big 'un!
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Post by taggert on May 23, 2021 18:55:13 GMT
I thought Dublin kicked in the first half but by God were they boring to watch when they got ahead. I put the first half down to newcomers not strictly adhering to the "system". That will be ironed out come c'ship. Must say it is painfully boring and I say that knowing that success breeds contempt. If I were a Dub, I might say they are not there to entertain ala the Harlem Globetrotters but still it aint pretty....
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Post by kerryeastcoastusa on May 23, 2021 18:59:52 GMT
Do we have a gym in our new training complex? We are a good bit behind physically, easily a match as footballers and prob better if truth be told One of best gyms in the country. I wouldn't agree regarding physicality at all we just are struggling in height at the back. Con o Callaghan is probably 5ft 9 or 5 ft10 max and is bullying our defenders ... we have physicality issues not just height
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Post by royalkerryfan on May 23, 2021 19:37:45 GMT
One of best gyms in the country. I wouldn't agree regarding physicality at all we just are struggling in height at the back. Con o Callaghan is probably 5ft 9 or 5 ft10 max and is bullying our defenders ... we have physicality issues not just height You have to accept certain players can only be curtailed to a degree and Con and David are two of those. Kerry have a very good S&C programme which was evident in the second half.
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Post by oldschool on May 23, 2021 19:42:06 GMT
1 We are learning to deal with the kick-outs a little better although still work to do. 2 Heartbreaking to see bad passing 3 Are 1 or 2 players there on reputation at this stage.
4 Kerry had good vision but never threatened the goal. 5 Fair play where it's due: To Kerry's credit they did not give up' 6 One or two calls went badly against them. 7 missed what seemed to be easy chances.
Overall proud of the whole team
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Post by ataboy on May 23, 2021 20:03:06 GMT
Dublin have more gears but Kerry have more problems would be my summation from today. Great credit for the fight back from Kerry but I thought we were lucky enough to get a draw as the game could and should really have been over at half time. The Dubs left at least 3 goals after them in that first half alone and were playing at their ease. Of course the ref was frustrating and a Kerry goal should have stood but the Kerry defence was still opened easily and with little effort from Dublin. There's still a gap between Dublin and Kerry for me. Dublin are just so strong around the middle and up front and I just feel they have more gears in them. Much to ponder but still hard to see this Dublin team being beaten when push comes to shove this year. That is my feel on it too. I'm less confident now than before the game of Kerry's ability to beat Dublin. Shane Ryan and TOS will strengthen the defence overall but enough to stop Dublin? I'm not so sure. And I really don't know what the answer is to sorting out the defensive issues. Huge credit to Kerry for the comeback but it'll felt like they were at close to their max where there is more in Dublin when it comes to it. They made some sloppy decisions today in front of goal that they simply won't do in August. Looks like Moynihan is making the 10 position his own with his hard running and getting on so much ball, I still feel he needs to move it on a little quicker and please play SOB on the other wing. Let PG and Spillane fight out it out for the 14 position. While he is getting a little older, Paul is proven at this level on the big day and I still believe there is big performances in him but as I mentioned last week unfair to play him at wing forward. Plus I don't get the Niall Scully love in today. A fabulous footballer and Dublin get him on as much ball as possible as a key player but how he got MOM ahead of Con or DC.
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Post by ataboy on May 23, 2021 20:10:03 GMT
Thought a hop ball was given. Looked like a bad tear, if it's long term Small would be a huge loss. Let's be honest. Dublin usually get a 30 minute challenge in the semi before the final (last years final was over after 45 mins). He has plenty time to be back for the business end in mid and late August. They won't change how they play anyway - they have a tried and tested system that 30 or so players are very familiar with. Yeah I meant only if it's serious. A bad tear would keep you out for 2 months at least?
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Post by southward on May 23, 2021 20:11:38 GMT
I thought Dublin kicked in the first half but by God were they boring to watch when they got ahead. I put the first half down to newcomers not strictly adhering to the "system". That will be ironed out come c'ship. Must say it is painfully boring and I say that knowing that success breeds contempt. If I were a Dub, I might say they are not there to entertain ala the Harlem Globetrotters but still it aint pretty.... There's a limit to that though and I think many Dubs agree that it's gone too far at this stage. Dublin's evolution reminds me a little of the Barcelona team of the noughties who were at one stage a joy to watch with incisive flowing (and successful) football but who over time become obsessed with passing for the sake of passing to the extent that their games were played at a snail's pace and were virtually unwatchable. And yes, there is an onus to entertain to some degree, otherwise what's the point? Different situation if you're a minnow battling a big team but if the top side espouses this sort of rubbish, the game is in trouble.
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Post by taggert on May 23, 2021 20:24:26 GMT
There is no way PG has the legs to start against Dublin anywhere on the pitch. Great player that he can be, the game has moved on and at best he is a late sub option agaunst a Dublin. Cons first goal had nothing to do with physical strength, Morley just got caught like a novice full back - sucked in and then Con turned to receive a ball over his head. Murphy and Begley were eaten alive in the first half and struggled beyond belief in the physical exchanges. How Begley was left on KK beggared belief. Simply didnt lay a glove on him. Kerry have Shane Ryan, Tom Sullivan, Jack Sherwood, Jack Barry, Stephen, Buckley, Tommy and Tony for consideration in the starting 15. A very worthwhile game today with plenty of learnings. The one good thing about Dublin is their system is very well known to us. Its an altogether different thing cracking it however.
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Post by taggert on May 23, 2021 20:36:06 GMT
I put the first half down to newcomers not strictly adhering to the "system". That will be ironed out come c'ship. Must say it is painfully boring and I say that knowing that success breeds contempt. If I were a Dub, I might say they are not there to entertain ala the Harlem Globetrotters but still it aint pretty.... There's a limit to that though and I think many Dubs agree that it's gone too far at this stage. Dublin's evolution reminds me a little of the Barcelona team of the noughties who were at one stage a joy to watch with incisive flowing (and successful) football but who over time become obsessed with passing for the sake of passing to the extent that their games were played at a snail's pace and were virtually unwatchable. And yes, there is an onus to entertain to some degree, otherwise what's the point? Different situation if you're a minnow battling a big team but if the top side espouses this sort of rubbish, the game is in trouble. Southward, I agree totally its an eyesore but like most successful ventures - sports teams, corporate entities, criminals - the "if it aint broke, dont fix it" mantra applies. The incentive isnt there until either (1) they are beaten, disrupted or rumbled or (2) the ecosystem participants or onlookers have had enough and demand reform. We are a bit away from both.....
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Post by ataboy on May 23, 2021 21:17:47 GMT
I put the first half down to newcomers not strictly adhering to the "system". That will be ironed out come c'ship. Must say it is painfully boring and I say that knowing that success breeds contempt. If I were a Dub, I might say they are not there to entertain ala the Harlem Globetrotters but still it aint pretty.... There's a limit to that though and I think many Dubs agree that it's gone too far at this stage. Dublin's evolution reminds me a little of the Barcelona team of the noughties who were at one stage a joy to watch with incisive flowing (and successful) football but who over time become obsessed with passing for the sake of passing to the extent that their games were played at a snail's pace and were virtually unwatchable. And yes, there is an onus to entertain to some degree, otherwise what's the point? Different situation if you're a minnow battling a big team but if the top side espouses this sort of rubbish, the game is in trouble. It's terrible to watch. Give us Diarmuid Connolly, Bernard Brogan, Jack McCaffrey any day, they brought a bit of magic. Very little entertaining to watch about this Dublin team when they revert to their system. But it works for them so rightly stick to it. But there is absolutely no onus on Dublin to entertain, zero. If the game is bad to watch that's up to the GAA, certainly not the Dublin team.
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kot
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Post by kot on May 23, 2021 21:43:34 GMT
There's a limit to that though and I think many Dubs agree that it's gone too far at this stage. Dublin's evolution reminds me a little of the Barcelona team of the noughties who were at one stage a joy to watch with incisive flowing (and successful) football but who over time become obsessed with passing for the sake of passing to the extent that their games were played at a snail's pace and were virtually unwatchable. And yes, there is an onus to entertain to some degree, otherwise what's the point? Different situation if you're a minnow battling a big team but if the top side espouses this sort of rubbish, the game is in trouble. It's terrible to watch. Give us Diarmuid Connolly, Bernard Brogan, Jack McCaffrey any day, they brought a bit of magic. Very little entertaining to watch about this Dublin team when they revert to their system. But it works for them so rightly stick to it. But there is absolutely no onus on Dublin to entertain, zero. If the game is bad to watch that's up to the GAA, certainly not the Dublin team. Maybe instead of bringing in rules that dont help the game they could. 1. Bring in a shot clock 2. Limit number of handpasses in a row 3. Mandate free kicks must go forward like kick outs
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Post by taggert on May 23, 2021 21:46:05 GMT
Absoluty ataboy. 3 stars who Gavin made relatively dispensable by promoting the collective (systematic) over the individual (unpredictable). There is a joylessness about it.
Anyway a moot point when all the big Dublin clubs typically have about 70 players at u10, 60 at u11, 50 at u12....
A conveyor belt of very willing and able soldiers who will swear allegiance to the system!!!!
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fitz
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Post by fitz on May 23, 2021 21:54:11 GMT
The bottom line is the backs are not good enough defensively. First goal, Morley going out to Kilkenny and leaving Con sneak inside him, unforgivable. Kilkenny had a man was stuck in corner going nowhere. Kealy always goes to ground pointlessly.
Great comeback but Dublin will have to be under par to get beaten in Championship.
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Post by john4 on May 23, 2021 22:08:22 GMT
The bottom line is the backs are not good enough defensively. First goal, Morley going out to Kilkenny and leaving Con sneak inside him, unforgivable. Kilkenny had a man was stuck in corner going nowhere. Kealy always goes to ground pointlessly. Great comeback but Dublin will have to be under par to get beaten in Championship. The position of Full back is a unique position. It's almost impossible to coach a guy to play at Full Back. Full Back is a frame of mind. I don't care how long he's played there, or how many hours of coaching is put into a fella to try and make a full back out of him, it won't work. Fellas are either full backs or they aren't. Tadhg Morely is a fine footballer, but he is not, or ever will be a full back.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on May 23, 2021 22:11:54 GMT
The bottom line is the backs are not good enough defensively. First goal, Morley going out to Kilkenny and leaving Con sneak inside him, unforgivable. Kilkenny had a man was stuck in corner going nowhere. Kealy always goes to ground pointlessly. Great comeback but Dublin will have to be under par to get beaten in Championship. Kealy wasn't the goalkeeper.
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Post by ataboy on May 23, 2021 22:20:54 GMT
It's terrible to watch. Give us Diarmuid Connolly, Bernard Brogan, Jack McCaffrey any day, they brought a bit of magic. Very little entertaining to watch about this Dublin team when they revert to their system. But it works for them so rightly stick to it. But there is absolutely no onus on Dublin to entertain, zero. If the game is bad to watch that's up to the GAA, certainly not the Dublin team. Maybe instead of bringing in rules that dont help the game they could. 1. Bring in a shot clock 2. Limit number of handpasses in a row 3. Mandate free kicks must go forward like kick outs Maybe once you get into the opposition half or 45 you can't come back outside it. The kickout rule not allowing a pass back to the keeper was a great call.
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